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PRIMETIME JUSTICE WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Army Sergeant Murders Army Wife. Low Bond for Pregnant Suspect. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired October 20, 2016 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST: When a killer pumped four bullets into the body of a new mother, did he have any idea that her little baby was right there?

Maybe it was compassion, maybe it was a sick joke, but that little child was tucked unharmed into her mom`s lifeless arms likely by the killer, and

no one found them for eight hours. Who could have done such a thing?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A U.S. Army sergeant marries his sweetheart, the mother of their baby girl. But just weeks after their wedding, gunshots

ring out, and the newlywed mom is found dead in her home, her baby girl alive and nestled beside her body.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: A woman accused of murdering and robbing an elderly man gets out of jail because she`s pregnant. Is that human compassion or abuse of the

system?

And a woman`s body is found in a shallow grave after her husband said she disappeared from a parking lot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I knew Valerie (ph) well enough to know she didn`t get up and walk out of the truck.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The thing is, she`s buried with some very strange items, like potato chips and perfume, and a note. Will that help crack the case?

Hello, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to PRIMETIME JUSTICE.

At first, it sounds like a sweet love story. A young couple meets in the Army. They have a beautiful baby girl and they get married. But just

weeks after Maliek Kearney and Karlyn Ramirez tie the knot, she`s shot dead in her Maryland home, four gunshots. The killer used a .357 caliber

revolver. Police found her dead on the floor, and what they discovered next is jaw-dropping. Her 5-month-old daughter was tucked into her arms,

thankfully alive.

At first, police were absolutely stumped as to who would do this. Her husband had an alibi 500 miles away. And Karlyn works for the NSA with top

secret clearance. So perhaps the murder had something to do with her cloak and dagger work?

It took a year, but a series of electronic puzzle pieces began to come together, and the husband`s alibi fell apart. It turns out he had a

mistress. And now prosecutors say the two of them together cooked up the murder plot and carried it out. They say that the girlfriend even supplied

the gas can to refuel on the trip, 500 miles to make the hit and 500 miles to make it home.

For the husband`s part, he got back just in time to make it to work the next day.

Joining me now is Chris Hansen, host of "Crime Watch Daily With Chris Hansen," and Jeffrey Boney associate editor of "The Houston Forward-Times."

First to you, Chris. This is so remarkable, the way this entire story played out over a year. What ultimately led them toward that husband?

CHRIS HANSEN, "CRIME WATCH DAILY": They started to piece things together, Ashleigh. And of course, you look at the spouse or the significant other

as the first person possibly involved. And while he had an alibi, and he stayed on this for a long time, they kept focusing on him. And as details

started to emerge about, you know, the gas cans -- and we`ve seen this in other crimes -- the cell phone records, the gun, which was from the

girlfriend, the mistress. It all came together, but it took a long time.

BANFIELD: And ultimately, there were details that started to come out in a court hearing today about the actual shooting itself, four bullets. What

did they tell about the crime scene and what investigators actually happened upon?

HANSEN: Somebody who shoots their once loved one four times and then places their child into the arms of the dead person is making a statement.

Who does that?

BANFIELD: This is a 5-month-old baby.

HANSEN: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: And it`s eight hours that that baby is sort of in the clutches of her dead mother?

HANSEN: And the workers at the complex where a lot of military people lived didn`t get in there until they saw two dogs roaming around the area.

And that led them to, Where did these dogs come from? And they see the open door, the unlocked door, and they get in there and they find the body.

BANFIELD: So Jeffrey Boney, the community must have been somewhat astounded by this horror that had happened around them. And yet it took a

year for them to actually come up with some kind of resolution and at least, you know, hone in on the ex-husband.

But ultimately, what else was going on? Somebody who works for the NSA with top secret clearance -- top secret -- it doesn`t get higher than that

at the NSA. Did they think it was something more spy-like or something that had nothing to do with a domestic, it was more sort of a sinister

plot?

[20:05:00]JEFFREY BONEY, "HOUSTON TIMES-FORWARD" (via telephone): Well, Ashleigh, quite frankly, they were trying to uncover all and turn over all

those stones. They could not find out who could have killed Ms. Ramirez.

But you know, what we ended up finding out is that there was some tumultuous situations that were going on with the relationship between

Ramirez and her 35-year-old husband, who was also in the Army. And what we find is about five weeks at the time of her death, they never formally

lived together, but things got rocky after two weeks of the marriage and they had allegedly separated.

After that, she sought a restraining order after him, and he showed up at the apartment unannounced in a failed attempt to try to reconcile days

before her murder. And at the time, he ended up being hospitalized for trying to end his life with sleeping pills. And he showed up at the house

with this plot and ended up killing her, allegedly.

BANFIELD: It is so incredibly strange that they`re only married for a couple of weeks, I mean, I think about five weeks, and the prosecutors say

he did this to his newlywed wife and the 5-month-old baby, his own child is there. So if he, in fact, is the perpetrator of this crime, this would be

a man who would be OK with leaving his own baby girl with a dead mother for hours and hours on end with a door open. It just defies logic.

I want to play for our audience, if I can, what the FBI special agent who showed up in court today with firsthand knowledge of what that crime scene

was like -- what that FBI agent, John Schaeffer, told the court. Have a listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Those bullets fired by Kearney, did that cause the death of Karlyn Ramirez?

JOHN SHAEFFER, FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Yes, it did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what significant happened immediately after the murder?

SCHAEFFER: Immediately after the murder, the young child that was living there, Mr. Kearney`s young child that was living there with Ms. Ramirez,

was placed on the arm of Ms. Ramirez, where it was left until the next morning when her body was discovered.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: All right. So Chris Hansen, ultimately, what the prosecutors are putting together is a story whereby this ex-husband drives 500 miles up

to do this and 500 miles to get back home to try to protect an alibi.

I just fell asleep overnight watching Netflix. My phone was in the apartment the whole time with me. That`s not necessarily (INAUDIBLE)

HANSEN: Well, clearly, this guy, being in the military, had some familiarly with investigations and law enforcement. So if you were to go

to a gas station, you would be picked up on a surveillance camera. The average human being is picked up on camera 12 to 18 times a day just going

about their day.

BANFIELD: Yes.

HANSEN: Every gas station has one. So he had these gas cans. The mistress bought them. He left his phone in a place where it couldn`t be

pinged. He had premeditated this crime.

BANFIELD: And they`re saying that, ultimately, the girlfriend stayed in South Carolina holding that phone so that it would appear he was there the

whole night

HANSEN: He was there the whole time. And in the beginning, that ended up being a pretty good alibi. But the case came together and as they ruled

out some sort of foul play by somebody going after somebody with top secret clearance, as you mentioned...

BANFIELD: Yes.

HANSEN: ... they started looking closer and closer at the husband.

BANFIELD: And Jeffrey Boney, there was something about that phone. There was an app that this suspect actually installed on his phone in order to

cover some tracks. I did not know about these wiping apps. I knew there were all sorts of ways to communicate quietly and clean your tracks. But

what exactly was this app, and what did the prosecutors say about it?

BONEY: Yes. So after investigators learned about the relationship that he had with Ms. Delgado, they started to delve in deeper and found that he had

installed a wipe app on his cell phone, and it was used between the days of the 24th and the 25th.

And investigators also found that Ms. Delgado had deleted a text that she had said asking relatives for gas cans that she had -- and she`d bought,

like, two of them herself. And he instructed her about what to tell the detectives afterwards, and she posted even, Ashleigh, some ammunition for

sale on Facebook after the murder.

BANFIELD: I want to play just quickly a sound from a sister. The sister of this victim got a phone call from the victim before she died, in fact

right before she died. And something was up. Something didn`t sound right in her voice. Have a listen to how she describes her sister`s phone call.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said, I don`t know what`s wrong. I don`t feel right. I don`t feel safe. Do you think my baby knows that I love her?

I`m, like, Why are you talking like this? What happened? I don`t know. I can`t tell you. I don`t know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I`m going to ask you to stick around, both Chris Hansen and Jeff Boney, if you can, because the victim`s mother also has a lot to say.

[20:10:02]She`s got some insight on her daughter`s relationship with the man who allegedly killed her. And she, too, got a phone call from her

frantic daughter right before she died.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: They fell in love in the Army. They married. They had a baby girl. But four bullets tore everything apart in a tragic and violent turn

of events.

Joining me now, Susan Garcia-Ramirez. She`s Karlyn Ramirez`s mother. She is the grandmother of that baby who was found in her dead mother`s arms.

Susan, thank you so much. And our hearts go out to you for what you have been through and for your loss. And today, the news coming out of that

courtroom of how the killer positioned your granddaughter in your daughter`s arm -- I cannot imagine how you have processed this.

SUSAN GARCIA-RAMIREZ, VICTIM`S MOTHER: It`s just devastating. It`s been very, very difficult. I had no idea that any of this had happened. It`s

been very hard.

[20:15:00]BANFIELD: How has this last year, before you had any indication of who the killer might be -- how did you get through that?

GARCIA-RAMIREZ: Well, I`ll tell you that we came to the point -- initially, of course, it was very devastating. We were lost. We were --

you know, we couldn`t find ourselves. But then came the moment that -- you know, we knew we were going to get Veil (ph) so we took the baby. We

brought her home, and from that day to today, she`s the light in our darkness. So you know, everything has been just centered around her, her

wellbeing, her happiness, you know, making sure she has everything, so that she`s not missing anything in her life.

BANFIELD: We`re just seeing these beautiful pictures of your daughter and your granddaughter in happy times. It`s such an unusual story, Maliek

Kearney with your daughter. They were married less than six weeks when this killing happened. They had never had a chance to actually live

together, certainly not as a married couple. And you yourself had only had a chance to meet Maliek Kearney twice, just two times.

Did you even get a sense of what kind of person he was?

GARCIA-RAMIREZ: Not really, not really because he was very quiet. He didn`t have a lot to say. He was nice. He was respectful. But he was

just a man of very few words. We never held a -- what you would say is a long conversation because he just didn`t have much to say.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Can you tell me what that phone call was like that you got? Karlyn called you presumably very, very close to the time that she was

killed, and there was something off. Your other daughter had said something was off. Explain the phone call that you had with Karlyn.

GARCIA-RAMIREZ: well, it started as -- she sent me a text message, and in her text message, it said, you know, I`m having a major panic attack. That

was what the text message said. And I was occupied at the time, so I probably saw it about 30 minutes after, you know, she sent it.

So I called her, and I said, Karlyn, what`s the matter? And she just said, I`m just having a major panic attack. I was, like, What`s the matter? She

said, I don`t know. I can`t tell you.

And at the time, I took it as meaning that maybe it was something secretive that she couldn`t discuss. You know, I just -- you know, and I was, like,

Well, I mean, tell me what`s going on? And she was just, like, I don`t know, Mom. I can`t. And so I just kind of went into my own mother mode

and said, Well, you know, if you can`t discuss it (INAUDIBLE) can do, then you need to, you know, get over it and take care of that baby. She`s

priority now. You need to...

BANFIELD: Do you think it`s possible he was in the room, that he was there, that she couldn`t say anything because he was there?

GARCIA-RAMIREZ: I don`t think so because I actually spoke with her after that conversation. You know, when I told her she needed to take care of

the baby, she was, like, OK, Mom. I will. And I told her, I`m going to Facetime you in a little while so that I can see the baby. And she was,

like, OK. And I Facetimed her afterwards and he -- you know, I saw the baby. It was all (INAUDIBLE) with the baby. So she didn`t have much to

say. We didn`t talk about anything. We just saw the baby.

BANFIELD: It`s just so mysterious. Susan Garcia-Ramirez, thank you so much for being with us. And again, my thoughts go out to you and your

family as you try to move through this process. It cannot be easy, that is for sure.

Joining me now, Areva Martin, former prosecutor, Danny Cevallos, defense attorney. So Danny, the first question I have is the charge. It`s a

federal charge. And look, it feels to me like this is a murder case, but it`s not a murder charge, it`s an interstate domestic violence resulting in

death. That is unusual. Does carry with it a maximum penalty of life. But why that charge?

DANNY CEVALLOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: People are often surprised to find that the federal government is a limited government. So crimes under the

federal code have to relate usually to some federal law or area. And in this case, it`s interstate commerce.

This is the Violence Against Women Act, which criminalizes traveling across state lines with intent to commit domestic violence. And just as you said,

if a death results, a prison term of up to life.

But in the vast majority of cases, murders are prosecuted by the local state authorities. The federal prosecutors have very limited jurisdiction,

although that jurisdiction can overlap with local authorities.

BANFIELD: So Areva, the other issue is, as a defense attorney, I would think that the first thing you would say, Look, if your evidence is an

electronic puzzle, whose fingers were doing the walking? Unless you`ve got actual DNA or some kind of forensic tie, isn`t it something that`s sort of

rich for a defense attorney to mine in court? You don`t know who was with the phone at the time. You don`t know who was with that car at the time

that it made that trip, correct?

[20:20:14]AREVA MARTIN, FORMER PROSECUTOR: You`re right, Ashleigh. There are a lot of questions still with respect to this case and answers that

have not been provided in the media. But what we do know is that prosecutors in this case apparently believe there was enough evidence to

make the arrest of both the husband and the girlfriend and then to charge them.

And we know in cases of this nature, those charges would not have been brought unless there was some substantial evidence that links both the

husband and the girlfriend to the murders. We know the investigation has been going on for a while, and there wasn`t the focus on the husband. And

something turned in this case. We don`t know what that evidence was, but something turned to cause these prosecutors to say this husband is guilty.

This husband and this girlfriend premeditated this murder. And obviously, that phone, text messages and other evidence at the scene of that crime are

going to be important to getting a conviction.

BANFIELD: Maliek Kearney and Dolores Delgado have some explaining to do. That will happen in court. There are a lot more details we don`t know yet,

but they will eventually surface.

Chris Hansen and Jeff Boney, thank you for joining us. Danny and Areva, I`m going to ask you to stay where you are, if you will, please.

An elderly man is killed. His car is stolen. Here`s where it gets interesting. The woman who`s charged with his capital murder gets out of

jail because she`s pregnant.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:25:50]BANFIELD: A capital murder suspect eight months pregnant, gets out of jail so she can have her baby. And the Mississippi county, in other

words, taxpayers -- they`re going to be on the hook for paying her medical expenses.

Joining me now, Therese Apel, a reporter for "The Clarion-Ledger" in Jackson, Mississippi. Therese, thanks so much for being with us.

First, I want to know the story, the story about why this woman, Loren Shell (ph) Blackwell, ended up in jail in the first place, facing life in

prison on pretty much the most serious charge you can be facing, capital murder. What happened?

THERESE APEL, "CLARION-LEDGER": An 81-year-old man from Pearl, Mississippi, Lee Kendrick -- he was last seen August 31st when he took his

wife to lunch and went to his office and basically sold some fence.

At that point, he went missing. His family reported him missing, and a few days later, he was found shot in the back of the head in a hotel room in

Jackson -- well, I`m sorry, an abandoned apartment in Jackson. And they were able to put together through social media and phone records that Loren

Shell was, in fact, a suspect in this case, along with Walter Lee Young (ph). At that point, they were able to bring her in, and I believe that`s

when they charged her and Mr. Young with capital murder.

BANFIELD: So there is a forensic connection. I mean, it`s not -- it`s a pretty simple forensic case in terms of what the investigators found,

right, and the crime scene, the body. Without getting too explicit, if you could, how did they connect her to the dead body?

APEL: Well, there was a trail of phone records and social media records. They believe that she met Mr. Kendrick at Romantic Adventures, which is an

adult store in Jackson area. There is -- I`d say it`s well known at this point it`s been reported that they were connected. They had some kind of

relationship. So they knew that these two were talking and that they were supposed to meet that night. And that was how they were able to connect

them to the case.

BANFIELD: OK. So let`s just put it this way. There was a sex toy actually connected to the body, and the forensics proved that she was a

part of that sex toy. So it`s pretty clear what had been going on.

Here`s where things get weird. There`s a lot of confusion about how she was sort of in and out of jail, but ultimately -- her bail originally was

released to such an extraordinarily low amount, she had to post 100 bucks. She had to post $100 ultimately first time around to get out of jail, the

judge saying something along the lines of, I`m not so sure I have enough evidence on a capital murder case.

So she`s got a capital murder case, and there is a death penalty in this state, but she gets out on $100. What happened after that?

APEL: Well, at some point, another judge was able to come back and raise that bond to $100,000. This has been kind of an epic, really. She ended

up getting out on bond. I believe during that time, she had a child. She was pregnant the first time the bond was lowered. And then...

BANFIELD: But that had nothing to do with...

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: That first time -- let`s be clear, that first time she got out on $100 bond, it didn`t -- it wasn`t because she was pregnant and about to

have a baby.

So she gets out -- she gets out. She has her baby, and then she gets hauled back in, and another judge says, What is all this about? Why are

you out on $100 when you`re a capital murder suspect? And then he puts her in the slammer, right? A couple months later...

APEL: Right.

BANFIELD: ... it`s revealed she`s pregnant again. She`s pregnant again. And then what happened?

APEL: Well, and then on October 12th, she goes into some kind of premature labor. So her attorney files an emergency motion for conditional release,

basically goes before the judge and says, you know, We`re in a situation where she`s having to take medication to delay the delivery, that kind of

thing.

[20:30:05] So they asked that she be put out on house arrest, so that that way she could at least go to the doctor when she needed to and that kind of

thing. And it couldn`t be assumed as stressful and unhealthy for the baby as it would be if she were in custody. So the judge who.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, "PRIMETIME JUSTICE" HOST: The only reason I keep interrupting, I keep thinking there are plenty of pregnant inmates. I get

it that they get out to have their babies because they can`t have them in the cell. What I don`t understand is someone who is facing capital murder,

no one in the prosecutor`s office at this point publicly has outlined whether he or she decided to seek the death penalty, because that`s a

reason to flee.

You know, you could want to flee for your life. And that`s the -- the flight risk is the issue when it comes to granting bail. Flight risk is the

issue. And if you`re facing capital murder and the death penalty, by the very definition, that is flight risk. So I want to ask you a few more

questions when we come back in a moment.

Specifically if you can explain to me how on earth they give her some conditions, but they don`t release her on bail, and it`s just called a

temporary release. Temporary release. Wait till you hear what the conditions are. I`m going to try to find a little justice in all this in a

moment.

[20:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Get pregnant, get directly out of jail, is that really possible? Because it sure seems that with this story about a woman who was charged

with capital murder in the killing of an elderly man. She was released from custody and the reason was, you`re about to have a baby.

Joining me again is Theresa Apel, reporter for the Clarion-Ledger and Jackson, Mississippi Commander Tyree Jones, public information officer for

the Jackson, Mississippi Police Department. They got a lot to say about that. Attorney Areva Martin is with me and Danny Cevallos, defense attorney

as well.

Theresa Apel, the conditions for this release, I will call it just a release because it is not bail, there was no bail posted, is that the judge

told her attorney that the attorney had to notify the court six weeks following the child`s birth to schedule something they`re calling a status

conference. There it is. That`s it. You`re looking at it.

Basically, she`s released on her own recognizance, she is under house arrest. We don`t even know if she`s wearing an ankle bracelet. Again, this

is a capital murder suspect in a state that has the death penalty. Why -- why did this happen? Therese, is there any other condition that we know

about that this woman isn`t allowed to leave the house even to get groceries? What do we know about the condition?

APEL: What we understand -- now, what`s in the actual court documents is what you described, just basically let us know when she has the baby and

then six weeks later we`ll talk about status. But what we understand is that she is allowed to heave the house for necessary errands like going to

the doctor.

She is going to be wearing an ankle bracelet or I guess already is. And she will be monitored. But we don`t know a lot more about what the actual, you

know, terms of this are beyond that and the court document literally is just what you outlined.

BANFIELD: That picture you`re seeing right now is her getting out of the victim`s car, which was stolen. She was charged with that, as well.

Certainly that ties her to the victim and his car in a certain way. Anyway, Commander Jones, I can -- I can only imagine how the police feel about

this, this extraordinarily low bond a year ago, a baby is born when she`s out on this $100 bond.

She goes back into the clink, only to be released again because she`s going to have another baby. And it`s not even bond this time. How are you guys

doing?

TYREE JONES, JACKSON, MISSISSIPPI PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE: Well, of course, we find this to be disappointing. But again, this does not stop us

from looking forward to successfully prosecuting this young lady for this crime for which she`s allegedly involved.

Of course, we`re not absolutely sure what her conditions of her bond is or her release. But again, we still look forward to working collectively with

the district attorney`s office and successfully prosecuting her for the role she played in this incident.

BANFIELD: Areva Martin, I remember when Phil Spector bonded out in California on a first-degree murder charge, and I was astounded, because

that`s a life in prison. I mean, that was -- there is a flight risk, when you`re going to be committed behind bars for the rest of your life or

potentially get the death penalty. I just don`t know if there`s any other definition for a flight risk. Is this unusual for what`s happened with this

woman?

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: This is so unusual, Ashleigh. As you saw appropriately and accurately stated in a capital murder case, you`re

usually looking at a $1 million plus bond, because the person has to have something at risk to guarantee that they`ll show up in court.

That`s the whole purpose of bond is to ensure that the person doesn`t skip town doesn`t leave the jurisdiction, and if they are available to be

prosecuted. So when you see a woman being let out of jail on this temporary release, it`s really astounding, and I can`t help but think about how the

victim`s family must feel about this.

BANFIELD: Right.

MARTIN: There are opportunities in jail to get medical care. So the fact that this baby may have been born premature, she may have some risks with

the pregnancy, that`s not enough to justify allowing her to be out without bail. They have doctors in jail that can provide medical care. So this is

really unusual.

BANFIELD: Yeah. And I don`t want to make light of it, but again I watch "Orange is the New Black," I know babies are born to women who were behind

bars, it happens all the time. Danny Cevallos, it happens all the time. So why on earth in this particular case would you fathom that a judge could

see that this is acceptable?

And by the way, she`s not going to have the baby right now. She`s gonna have the baby in a month or so. And -- and she just have to notify within

six weeks. So she`s going to be out for several months to have the baby, care for the baby, and then report back to jail when you`re free.

[20:40:00] DANNY CEVALLOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I read the motion and the order in this case. It was like a stepping stone series of decisions.

First, the judge ordered, after the defense attorney writes this beautiful motion saying, in all cases except capital cases where there`s clearly

obvious evidence, everyone is entitled to bail.

And the judge just says well, we`re going to release her because she`s pregnant. Then they apply again and say while she`s pregnant, she can`t

make bail, so she`s in custody and she`s having complications, your honor, so please let her out. And the judge grants it again. You can see it right

there in the filings. It`s a fascinating decision.

BANFIELD: Well, it`s weird. It`s offensive, I`m sure, to a lot of people. And it`s on T.V. So now people know about it. There`s any justice to be

had, maybe that`s it for now. The story is not over yet. Commander Tyree Jones, thank you so much for your time, sir, and for doing the job that you

do. Danny and Areva, I want to ask you to stick around. Therese Apel, thank you as well.

Going to update some stories right now that we`ve been tracking on "Primetime Justice." Let me take you to Houston, Texas first, where

prosecutors have not yet decided if they`re going to charge a 14-year-old who is accused of killing his grandparent, whether they will charge him as

an adult or not. Investigators say the teen not only shot Sandra and Chester Bienek in their sleep, but that he lived with their bodies for two

days inside that home. That teenager is expected to make another court appearance next week.

In a Georgia courtroom today, four young women said that they had sexual conversations with a father on the day he`s accused of intentionally

leaving his little son, Cooper, to die in a hot car. One woman testified Justin Ross Harris told her he was not happily married and said if Cooper

wasn`t in the picture, I would have left by now. Testimony continues in the morning.

[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: It sounds like an episode of an old detective show. You might know it, "Columbo." Here are the clues. A bag of potato chips, a bottle of

perfume, and a note. Is it enough to solve what appears to be a case of murder? It involves a husband and a wife. It involves his parents, too.

Joining me now, Amy Calder, a reporter and columnist for the Morning Sentinel and Dr. Lee Norman, the chief medical officer at the University of

Kansas Hospital, who can help us sort through some of the forensics of this story. First to you, Amy Calder. Set the stage about this story. Tell me

the story that Valerie Tieman and her husband, Luc, went through and why we are here on television talking about a murder.

AMY CALDER, REPORTER AND COLUMNIST FOR MORNING SENTINEL: Well, on September 15th, the Maine State Police sent a press release to us saying that they

were looking for a woman named Valerie Tieman that was reported missing by her parents on September 9th, and her parents lived in South Carolina.

However, she lived in Fairfield, Maine with her husband, Luc.

So we got a tip on September 20th, a few days later that the Maine State Police and the warden service were searching Luc`s Tieman parents` home

property where Luc and Valerie lived for the summer. So I went out there and with a huge police presence. They didn`t tell us a lot for the first

few hours, but the commissioner of public safety, John Morris, was there, so we knew it was serious.

We suspected that they found the body. They did come out and say they had found a body four minutes after they went in, a canine found the body.

Mostly -- partially buried, almost completely buried. So we figured it was she. But the police didn`t tell us until later that it was.

BANFIELD: Amy, the weird part about that, we`re looking -- we`re looking at the picture of the shallow grave. Is there under that tarpaulin? And

Valerie Tieman was buried with a bag of chips, a bottle of perfume, and a note that being described as an apology note.

It`s maybe the most extraordinary part of it, if that isn`t weird enough, is that she`s actually buried in her in-laws` backyard. These would be the

same people who never mentioned to anyone that she was missing. These would be the same place where she and her husband actually lived. They lived with

her husband`s parents.

Her husband didn`t report her missing. Her in-laws didn`t report her missing. It took over two weeks for her own parents who live in another

state who hadn`t heard from her to call the police and say, I think something is wrong. That`s how this played out?

CALDER: It is. But he said later that they didn`t live with his parents the last few days, which turned out not to be true. He was living there with

this woman for several days when Valerie was actually dead. And, you know, courting her and showering her gift, her children with gifts, 14 and 15-

year-old boys with expensive gift, the four-wheeler, you know, that sort of thing, and telling her that he loved her and.

BANFIELD: This is weird. This -- this Luc Tieman told police, who obviously asked a lot of questions, well, my wife just disappeared from the Walmart

parking lot. I went into the store. When I came out, she was gone. That`s how it happened. Ultimately, the second story that came from Luc Tieman,

other than "no comment," which is what his attorney is telling us now, is that he was some kind of a drug addict in some way, or maybe there was some

other guy.

Let me read some of the Facebook conversations, if I can, that you yourself had with Luc. This is what he told you on Facebook. She told me there was a

guy but wouldn`t say his name. The police are getting records. So they should be able to know who soon. But I don`t even care. I just want her to

not feel bad and come back. I was just thinking if she knows the police know that she does drugs. That may be why she`s hiding. My best guess is

she is with this unknown guy who probably is into drugs or she`s in a hospital.

But that doesn`t pan out when you look at the autopsy. Put up the autopsy if we can. The autopsy report shows that she has some acetaminophen and

caffeine in her system, but the heroin that Luc said he suggested his wife was on, nowhere to be found. The only other thing were buprenorphine and

tramadol, and that is not heroin.

So this guy has lied a whole lot. Dr. Lee Norman, it would show up if she ever had a little heroin in her system prior to disappearing, it would show

up, just tell me it would show up in some kind of toxicology report.

[20:50:00] LEE NORMAN, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS HOSPITAL: Yes, heroin stays in the body quite a long time. It is absorbed

by the fat in the body and in the brain and it very gradually is released into the blood stream. So it would hang around and be measurable for quite

a long time.

BANFIELD: All right. So Amy has told me about some pretty fascinating stories. Dr. Lee Norman, I want to thank you. Amy, I want to ask you to

stay with me if you can because the conversations that you had with Luc Tieman on Facebook, they`re just sort of appalling. It`s just -- a person

at his worst.

So I, at this time, want to take us from a story that`s ugly, sort of the worst we can be in humanity, to a hopeful story about trying to be the best

that we can be. I want you to meet a guy named Jeff Payne because that guy is doing everything that he can to make sure that teenage drivers and their

lives are important and not lost.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF PAYNE, TEACHING KIDS TO BE PREPARED DRIVERS: A lot of parents would never toss their kid a loaded gun and tell them to have fun, but many of

them just don`t think twice about throwing them the car keys. We just throw the kids out there on the road and expect them to be prepared to handle

every situation. And that is not just the case. We`re just doing our job so we can make a difference out there and make the roads safer for all of us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: To see the extreme driving situations that Jeff has put thousands of kids through, go to cnnheroes.com. Catch all the action and get ready

because Anderson Cooper is going to reveal the top ten CNN heroes of 2016 next Wednesday. Mark your calendar, October 26th. Remember, you can be a

part of this. Go to cnnheroes.com. Catch the action. Be involved.

[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Valerie Tieman`s husband, who says he last saw his wife in a Walmart parking lot, said something about she was a heroin addict, but

there was no heroin in the body when they dug her up in his parent`s backyard.

I want to bring back my guests from this one. Amy Calder, reporter and columnist for the Morning Sentinal in Maine and former prosecutor Areva

Martin is with me. Defense attorney Danny Cevallos is here as well. First, to you, Areva, the parents are not charged anywhere here, but Luc Tieman

is. He`s charged with murder.

But the parents, this is their home. They never said a word about this woman missing. She lived in that home. She lived in a home with Luc, not a

word from Luc that this woman is missing, not a word from the parents. Why is there no charge there? And what about the fact that this body is in

their backyard, no accessory after the fact charge?

MARTIN: Yeah, this is really odd. You have a couple that`s living in this home. She goes missing and it requires her family from another state to

report her missing. I don`t think the charges are over in this case. I think the investigation may ultimately result in some charges being filed

against the parents. What we`re hearing right now, nothing links the parents to the murder.

But this seems like a really sordid kind of love triangle that goes bad. This guy apparently is already living with her, spending nights with

another woman, his wife is buried in the shallow grave. I think there`s so much more to know about the relationship they may be having with this other

woman.

BANFIELD: Yeah. And I think that note that only been described as some sort of an apology note is going to play a really big part of it. Danny, I wish

I could ask you about, you know, the content of the note, but we don`t know it yet. When we do, maybe it will help.

In the meantime, I do have to ask you this. Luc Tieman, U.S. army veteran. He served in Iraq and Afghanistan. Is it possible as a defense attorney you

would bring that up? Maybe he suffered from PTSD, maybe you`re looking from the jury maybe for little sympathy. I don`t know. How do you handle a case

like Luc?

CEVALLOS: First is in jury selection. You look for like-minded jurors who might be sympathetic. Not just for other vets, but you look for families of

vets. People that would know vets or people that might signal that they`re going to be patriotic.

But I always fall back on my standard all-jury selection, it`s astrology, its all to me is reading tea leaves. Ultimately it`s about a connection

with a particular juror. But conventional wisdom might say that you would bring that into the case and crowbar it in any way you can so as to

generate sympathy.

BANFIELD: Maybe don`t have your parents sitting in the courtroom. If you`re going to trial and evidence comes up, it`s in their backyard and they don`t

bother to ever say that, hey, where is Valerie? She hasn`t been around for a couple of days, you know, I think that might be problematic especially

after a couple of weeks.

Amy Calder, thanks for your great work. Areva Martin, it`s always great to have you. And Danny Cevallos, thank you so much as well. It`s great to have

your insight. Thank you, everybody, for joining us for "Primetime Justice." it`s this place where we spotlight injustice wherever it happens. Stay

tuned now, "Forensic Files" is up next.

[21:00:00]

END