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CNN LIVE EVENT/SPECIAL
The Messy Truth. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired December 6, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
VAN JONES, HOST: Good evening.
I'm Van Jones.
I want to welcome you to THE MESSY TRUTH.
Now, look, it's been one month -- a whole month since the election night and it still feels nearly impossible to have productive conversation with the other side.
You know who I'm talking about, OK?
We are still acting like one side is always right and the other side is always wrong. One side is grounded in truth and reason and, you know, good common sense and the other side is insane and delusional, OK?
And now both sides have been guilty of doing this. I've been personally guilty of doing this. You have probably been guilty of doing this.
But look, this is America. At some point, we have got to do better, all right?
So we're here tonight and we're just going to try to get real. Neither side has all the answers. Nobody is perfect. And the real truth, when you get down to, is almost always messy.
For instance, let's just get messy here for a second. I think both political parties need to take a good long look in the mirror, because right now, they both kind of suck. Let's just be honest.
JONES: Right now, both parties kind of suck.
JONES: Now, I'll start with us. Let's -- I'll start with us. I'm a strong Democrat. At our best, we are the champions of America's downtrodden working folks. But it's also true that some very obnoxious elitism has found a home in our party and Democrats now have gotten so used to saying stuff like red state voters are stupid that we don't even get how stuck up and terrible that sounds to anybody with good sense. And that elitist attitude may have cost us the Rust Belt and this election, OK?
That's got to stop.
Now, on the other hand, Republicans, you all have got problems, too. At your best, you are the party of colorblind individual merit and that sounds great. But as much as Republicans hate to admit it, some nasty strains of some bigotry and some bias, including some actually scary white supremacists, have found a home in their party. And they don't seem to want to acknowledge that or even confront it in a serious way.
Now I am not saying -- listen to me now -- I am not saying that every Democrat is an elitist and I am certainly not saying that every Republican is bigoted. Far from it.
I'm saying something else. I'm saying that neither major political party today seems to truly respect all Americans.
In fact, both parties seem to disrespect an awful lot of Americans an awful lot of the time.
That is no longer just a partisan problem, that is now an American problem and we've got to do something about it. We've got to do something about it.
So, tonight we're going to try to take just a few steps toward some progress to try to just better understand each other, understand.
We're not going for agreement, OK?
We don't have to agree. There's nothing wrong with disagreement. It's how we disagree. Disagreement is good. In a dictatorship, you have to agree. Democracy, you don't have to agree. That's called freedom. That's the whole point. That's what the country is about.
What we've forgotten, though, is the difference between destructive disagreement and constructive disagreement.
So tonight we're going to see if we can disagree but keep it constructive. That would be real progress. That would be real progress.
JONES: So coming up, we've got three people, great Americans, but they definitely don't agree on anything. We've got Rick Santorum, Ana Navarro and Michael Moore, who are all going to be joining me on this stage. You've got...
JONES: A giant legend. But -- but before we hear from them, I personally discovered a messy truth last week in Ohio. Let me introduce to you a family of two-time Obama voters who switched in 2016 to vote for Donald Trump.
Take a look.
JONES (voice-over): Farmland and factories dominate the landscape and union Democrats dominate local politics. But over the last 40 years, well, actually, the last four years, especially Obama's second term, industry has been hit hard. Many steel mills, manufacturing plants have been closed and thousands of jobs have been lost.
I'm invited to dinner with a family of Trump supporters to talk politics.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello.
JONES (on camera): Hello.
How are you?
(voice-over): Scott Seitz is a lifelong Democrat who voted for Obama twice. Cameron, his only son, who was old enough to vote in the last election also supported Obama.
This year, all four Sikes men voted for Trump.
(on camera): What did you like about Obama and then what did you like about Trump?
SCOTT SEITZ, OHIO DEMOCRAT WHO VOTED FOR TRUMP: I take Obama represents a lot of love. And I think that he's a good man and he did all he could and we supported him for two elections.
SEITZ: And then when those changes really didn't come about and ObamaCare actually affected me personally with my own mother, I think we needed a change once again.
Trump seemed to come through here and he's speaking change again. So I think we still voted for change.
DERINDA SEITZ, ABSTAINED FROM VOTING FOR PRESIDENT: I -- I just, you know, I -- I wouldn't vote for either one.
JONES: So you voted for a Democrat all the way down but could not vote for Hillary Clinton?
D. SEITZ: No. It was just her morals and his morals. I just -- no, it -- they -- they both scared me.
JONES: So let me give you guys a chance to respond to some of the stereotypes about all the Trump voters.
All the Trump voters hate the Mexicans, they hate Muslims, they don't like black people, they're just -- it was all this explosive kind of racial talk was what really got everybody going.
CAMERON SEITZ, OHIO DEMOCRAT WHO VOTED FOR TRUMP: One of my jobs is helping counseling individuals recovering from drug and alcohol addictions. And I'm just going by the statistics. At my location, most of them are minorities. I would probably go as far as to say 80 to 85 percent.
So, you know, if that were the case and if I was racist, then I just don't believe that I'd be very good at my job.
But I'm not the stereotype that individuals think we are.
JONES: So how does a billionaire -- I mean you guys are serious like the working class backbone of America in the industrial heartland.
I mean how -- how does a billionaire break through to the blue collar worker?
S. SEITZ: We put Democrats in office. And she turned around and forgot completely about us. We are what makes this world go around.
We built the tanks and bombs that won these country's wars and for you to come through here and completely neglect us, we would have rather vote for -- for anybody instead of her. And all the other stuff that Donald said didn't seem to make a hill of beans. She hurt us. And that's what it is.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
JONES: Please welcome Derinda and Scott Seitz right here, all the way from Ohio.
JONES: You know, that was a life-changing thing for me and I just learned so much from you. It was a -- it was a -- a total stereotype shatterer.
What do you hope people who are watching, people who are in this room, can learn from you, from your family and your experience so far?
S. SEITZ: We truly want to make America better. And you have enlightened us, as well. We hope that the bleeding can actually stop in our area. The Rust Belt area is filled with United Autoworkers, United Steelworkers and everything trickles down from that. And when they seem to suffer, the rest of us suffer. And we need to stop the bleeding.
JONES: Well, you know, you gave Trump a chance, so, you know, you broke my heart. I'm mad. I wish you'd stayed with the Democrats, but you gave him a chance.
What would it look like -- I mean what -- he owes you now.
I mean what needs to happen for you to feel like you jumping the fence was worth it?
S. SEITZ: Well, would like to see him come to area and at least walk through and see what we see each and every day. We have a ton of mills that have seemed to close up and not only did they close up, but they've been torn down and removed. They look like ghost towns.
JONES: Yes, I saw that. I mean that was -- that was crazy. There were these big mills that have been there your whole life, your parents' life, your grandparents' life, that have been razed to the ground just in the past several months.
So these -- these bombs were falling on your landscape in the election season and you didn't feel that the Democrats were even taking note.
S. SEITZ: Absolutely. We feel that they came through and paid close attention to the special interests and completely forgot about us.
JONES: Well, you know, I'm very curious about you, because all the men in your family, your sons, everybody voted for Trump.
You went down, you voted for every Democrat on the ballot, but when it came to the presidency, what did you do?
D. SEITZ: I didn't vote for anybody.
JONES: You didn't vote for anybody.
D. SEITZ: Nobody.
JONES: But you are a woman.
D. SEITZ: I...
JONES: And you are a Democratic woman. And Hillary Clinton, as best I can tell...
D. SEITZ: I guess that...
JONES: -- is a woman.
JONES: So I don't get it.
D. SEITZ: She scared me. Donald scared me. So I just -- my morals could not allow me to mark -- like I told you, she did her job in making me not want to vote for Trump, all those scary things about what he says. But she didn't do her job in showing me why I should vote for her.
JONES: Wow! Yes, well, I mean that's a -- that's a heartbreaker, I think, for a lot of Democrats to hear. One more thing I want that -- that blew my mind when we were talking. I'm a, you know, strong believer that we need to have good common sense gun regulations. I've been talking about that. I've been going on about that. You know, I do a lot of work in urban environments. We've got too much gun violence.
But when you hear something about guns and the Second Amendment, you think about meat in your freezer. Tell us about that.
S. SEITZ: Absolutely. When we get a downturn in the economy, we need to still feed our families. And when they talk about the Second Amendment or taking our guns away, that's exactly what we think of, all the time that we have hunting together and, as a family, and we got out and we harvest and we put food in the -- in the freezer.
And when we get slow at work, we still have food to feed our families. And that's most important to us. We need to put food on the table.
JONES: You know, I think people don't know -- first of all, I don't think Hillary Clinton wants to take those hunting rifles. I don't think people understand it's an economic issue for a lot of people, especially people who are on -- on the bubble.
Listen, I want to thank both of you for being here.
And up next, we're going to bring the audience into the questioning and we're going to have the Republican giant, Rick Santorum. He and I are on the opposite side of a whole lot of issues. But tonight, we're going to try to get past all that and get down to the messy truth, when we get back.
JONES: Welcome back to THE MESSY TRUTH.
I'm Van Jones.
Now we have former senator and presidential contender, Rick Santorum in the house.
JONES: Give it up for him.
JONES: How are you, sir?
Good to see you.
Thank you so much for being here.
RICK SANTORUM (R-PA), FORMER SENATOR & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you.
JONES: Grab a seat, grab a seat. Well, here's a messy truth I want to talk with you about -- whitelash.
You remember that term?
SANTORUM: I -- yes, I -- I remember hearing it.
JONES: Yes. Yes.
SANTORUM: Yes, I did.
JONES: Yes, you know, it was a term...
SANTORUM: I was watching live at that time.
JONES: Oh, wow!
JONES: Oh, wow!
So -- so you know what I'm talking about.
SANTORUM: You stirred up my family.
JONES: I bet that's right.
SANTORUM: Yes, you did.
JONES: I'll bet that's right.
I was using that term, trying to speak to the pain of some Democrats, but I think I may have caused some pain for some Republicans.
Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: This was a rebellion against the elites, true. It was a complete reinvention of -- of politics and polls. It's true.
But it was also something else. We've talked about race -- I mean we've talked about everything but race tonight. We've talked about income, we've talked about class, we've talked about region. We haven't talked about race.
This was a whitelash. This was a whitelash against a changing country. It was a whitelash against a black president, in part.
And that's the part where the pain comes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: Did those words cause you pain?
SANTORUM: Yes, they struck at me because, I mean not -- not me, but what your comment was about our country, because I don't see our country that way. I don't see this election that way.
To suggest there was a whitelash, in part, against a president -- a black president who was twice elected with a majority, you know, a strong majority and strong white support, it just -- it was hard for me to say that is based in any kind of real objective analysis of what was going on.
You heard from the folks who were up here earlier and I heard it over and over, you know, when I was campaigning for president in '12 and in -- in '16. There are a lot of people hurting and they didn't think anyone of either party was listening to them.
SANTORUM: And that's not a whitelash or a backlash, that's just lashing.
JONES: Well, yes. Well, first of all, I appreciate the chance for -- to walk with you about it, because you're somebody I have a great deal of respect for and I think we -- we've gotten a chance to talk many times over the years.
Let me tell you how I see it and let me tell you what I was trying to speak to.
We live in different bubbles. And in the bubble that I live in, when you saw that alt-right movement coming, actual white supremacists, actual white nationalists, and not only were they on the scene, but more than two dozen times, Donald Trump was re-Tweeting them. That sent a shockwave through my community.
Now, this was coming right after you had those nine African-Americans who were killed in that church in South Carolina.
So we're looking around saying what is going on here?
And when you start feeling that, you know, kind of stuff happening in the country, that gave us pause.
Also, we love to say, as Americans, we elected, you know, a black president. But the majority -- not for racial reasons, but the majority of white folks voted against Obama both times. The majority of white folks have been voting against Democrats, as you know, for a very long time. So I'm not -- it's not racial...
JONES: It's not racial. But just -- just to be, from our point of view, the majority of -- of white -- even the majority of white Californians, voted against Obama both times.
So we feel...
SANTORUM: But Van...
JONES: -- so we feel -- we feel insecure.
SANTORUM: OK, so let's...
JONES: Do you understand that?
SANTORUM: -- look on the other side of -- of how a white person might see this.
SANTORUM: Ninety-eight percent of blacks voted for Barack Obama. Ninety-some percent vote for Hillary Clinton. And -- and no one talks about wow, there's -- there is a racial issue going on in the black community.
JONES: That's what I call the black lash.
SANTORUM: That -- that, you know, and that -- that seemed -- that's OK, yet the white community, in the last several elections, divided
SANTORUM: Yes, votes a slight majority in the last election, not this one, but the last one, against President Obama.
Race has become an issue, I would make the argument, because President Obama has elevated the issue of race.
SANTORUM: And -- and -- and really made it a -- a much more divisive issue.
I understand -- I understand -- I understand his sensitivity to that issue. But I think he has brought it on the stage and has not handled it well.
JONES: But I...
SANTORUM: And I think that hurt.
JONES: And (INAUDIBLE), this is a part of the challenge, because maybe in your world, these issues came up because Obama was -- was bringing them in, but in our world, we worry about these issues every day.
I'm raising two boys. We -- we struggle with these issues. We see the way that our kids are sometimes treated versus others.
I don't think the president brought these issues forward. I think the issues have been with us for a long time.
I want you to -- listen, I don't want to (INAUDIBLE).
I want you to hear from...
JONES: -- somebody who can speak to it from a personal point of view. And I want you to -- to be able to talk with her and not just with me.
JONES: I'm going to come out there to you.
I can't tell you how important it is to me to have you here.
We have a doctor in the house, by the way, a doctor, who's also...
JONES: Alison Mantha is also not only a doctor, she's also a mom. And she's just got some stuff she wants to share with you. Let's have a real conversation here.
DR. ALISON BRYANT MANTHA, CLINTON VOTER FROM MASSACHUSETTS: Thanks.
So good evening.
SANTORUM: Good evening.
MANTHA: So, yes, as an African-American mother of two biracial sons, I really am watching with growing alarm and concern certainly the number of police-involved deaths of black men and women, boys and girls. And the president-elect decides or professes that he's going to be the president for all Americans.
And so what I'd like to hear is what he and his administration can and will do to assure the respect and the protection of my boys' bodies and really of their futures going forward?
SANTORUM: Yes. And -- and I think, as you know, Doctor, I mean, obviously, you're a smart person. This is a very complex issue. And I think what Donald Trump has recognized is there are many components to it. One is economic and the economic opportunities.
The one thing I was actually very surprised and glad that I saw is that Donald Trump completed for black votes in America. He went out there and talked about how he would be a better president for black America and that he would create more jobs, he would create more -- more order and law and order within the inner city.
JONES: That -- that...
SANTORUM: He would create a -- a better atmosphere... JONES: Let me ask another...
SANTORUM: -- for families to be able to...
JONES: Let me just ask you something...
SANTORUM: -- raise children.
JONES: -- because -- because, again, we live in different bubbles. When you see the law and order question, it may land with you as reassuring.
Did it land as -- when you heard law and order, did -- how did that make you feel?
MANTHA: It raised a lot of concerns for me as to what...
MANTHA: -- what it raised for me was concerns about police brutality. What it raised for me was concerns for implicit bias that I know exists throughout the health care and certainly I know exists in the education system and in the law enforcement system. And I didn't hear any of that rhetoric or that conversation being discussed.
SANTORUM: I would say if you look at the major metropolitan areas where there are large concentrations of minorities, the biggest problem facing those minority communities is violence and it's minority-on-minority violence. It's not police violence.
And that is a -- I -- I know, because I represented the city of Philadelphia and the city of Pittsburgh. And...
JONES: I -- I...
SANTORUM: -- as someone who represented those areas and sees the -- the amount of destruction that is going on, you can't help but say let's bring some order to that chaos. Let's try to do some things...
JONES: All right, let...
SANTORUM: -- to help repair that situation.
JONES: Senator, let me -- let me tell you, first of all, thank you so much.
Give him a round of applause.
JONES: I agree with you that we have too many funerals in the black community. And most of the time it's a young African-American shooting and killing another young African-American. But part of what I think people don't understand is that when you have a generation that's squeezed between unlawful street violence and squeezed between unlawful street violence and often unlawful police violence, nobody trusts anybody and you can't access the system.
So part of bringing the violence down has to be about bringing trust up. And again, I think we talk past each other.
When you hear law and order, you say, oh, gosh, somebody is going to do something good about it. When we hear law and order but you don't hear him saying we want the police to respect the law, too, and then it makes us scared.
SANTORUM: I -- I -- I don't know of anybody out there defending police officers who have clearly -- I mean you can look at the situation in Charleston. You don't see a lot of folks, even police officers, running to that person's defense.
So I think if there's legitimate cases of -- and -- and certainly there are -- then they should be prosecuted fully and, in fact, they should be made an example of, because that can't -- that can't allow -- you're right, it undermines the legitimacy of the police.
JONES: The good thing is that we're going to have the opportunity now, with the Republicans having full control of the federal government, to see if we can come up with a better balance here.
But I don't want to just talk about this, because we have so many other people to talk about.
As alarmed as some people may have been about Donald Trump, some people were thrilled.
Some people were excited. And nobody more excited than the next guest, T.J. Bray. T.J. Bray is somebody who is -- you guys have heard about Donald Trump's big victory with saving those jobs for the Carrier plant?
TJ is one of the people whose job he saved.
TJ, take it away.
TJ BRAY, WORKS AT CARRIER PLANT TRUMP VISITED LAST WEEK: Hey, how are you doing, Mr. Santorum?
SANTORUM: Good, TJ.
BRAY: As you know, I was a Carrier worker. Mr. Trump came in and was able to make this deal to save, as we know, yesterday, 750 jobs.
So my question to you is, what can we expect from the Trump administration with other jobs that we have that are going to Mexico and other countries like China?
We have a system -- we have a plant about a mile down the street. It's called Rexnord. Mr. Trump actually Tweeted about it on Friday. They have 350 union employees that are losing their jobs to Mexico.
So what can we expect from the Trump administration to help workers, union workers and manufacturing in this country?
SANTORUM: I spent my entire 2016 campaign, abbreviated as it was, traveling around the country doing manufacturing stops, because I -- I wrote a book a few years ago called "Blue Collar Conservatives" and talked about how the renaissance had to be coming from making America a strong industrial nation again.
Donald Trump understands that. And he understands it at its core. And he understands that the biggest thing that I heard talking to manufacturers was the regulatory environment, how -- how punitive it was to be able to -- to go out and try to be competitive in a -- in a global environment.
And what Donald Trump will do day one, he's said it over and over, and he will, he will look at the executive orders, he'll look at the regulations, the administrative interpretation...
JONES: Well, let me ask you something now, Senator.
SANTORUM: -- and how will rip them out and create immediately a better environment for manufacturing...
JONES: So, look, let me -- here's the deal.
JONES: Here's the deal. For -- look, all that might work out well and it may and it may not, but I -- there's some messy truth here I want to get to...
JONES: -- on manufacturing.
Let's be honest, when those jobs left, it was a whole lot of people and a few machines. If they come back, it's going to be a whole of machines and very few people because...
JONES: -- because advanced manufacturing is a full employment program for robots, not people.
Don't you have to be honest about that with...
SANTORUM: No, no, I don't, because...
JONES: -- the American people?
SANTORUM: -- you look at Carrier, you look at any modern manufacturer, yes, they are very sophisticated machines to take very well trained and educated young men and women to run them who make better wages because of it.
SANTORUM: Because if they're just doing manual piecework, they're not going to make a lot of money. They're going to make good -- better -- manufacturing wages are much higher than service paying wages.
JONES: All right, there's no...
SANTORUM: That's the reality.
JONES: -- nobody is going to argue about that.
SANTORUM: And the reason is, is because because of that automation, is that we are more efficient and can -- and we can pay good.
JONES: I -- I -- I hope you're right. I hope you're not over promising.
We've got so many people.
I want to bring in Jock Spivy, who is also a Trump voter out of the business community.
Go ahead, John.
JOCK SPIVY, TRUMP VOTER FROM NEW YORK: I live near Wollman Rink in Central Park. And I watched Donald Trump fix a skating rink in six months which the city of New York, whose budget this year is approximately $82 billion, couldn't fix in six years.
Donald Trump accomplished what the government couldn't.
Can a Trump administration bring the same kind of skill and focus to the $1 trillion worth of infrastructure programs which his senior adviser, Steve Bannon, has said that they want to implement, and which, by the way, incoming Senate minority leader, Schumer, supports?
JONES: But before you answer, Senator, I do want people at home to get this, because there are a lot of people at home who are -- don't like the whole Trump thing. You've got people excited who think that America might get rebuilt, might get put back to work.
So, can you just go -- just tell me what you would love to see Trump do?
I don't -- me personally, just to have somebody fix a skating rink doesn't mean they can run the whole government.
But what do you want to see him do? what are you excited about?
You say a trillion dollars, what do you want to see a trillion dollars done? SPIVY: Let's start with JFK Airport, which is possibly the worst major airport in the world.
SPIVY: I think this would be -- as a New Yorker, I think that is an extremely attractive idea. It could be followed with bridges...
SPIVY: -- ports, highways...
JONES: Got you.
SPIVY: -- hospitals and schools.
JONES: Well, thank you.
I'm going to -- I'm going to point out that when Democrats say they want to build stuff, you call it socialism and then when the Republicans want to do it, it's called patriotism.
JONES: So I don't understand that.
JONES: But we're going to answer your question, but I don't want to answer it with just us. I want to bring to the stage another legend in the American body politic, a CNN contributor extraordinaire, Ana Navarro.
Come to the stage.
JONES: Come to the stage.
VAN JONES: CNN contributor extraordinaire, Ana Navarro. Come to the stage! Come to the stage!
JONES: Now -- very, very good. Now, Ana --
ANA NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Mm-hmm.
JONES: -- we've been talking.
JONES: We've been going back and forth. But now --
NAVARRO: I thought we called it therapy.
JONES: That's good. But we wanted to bring you out here, because you may well be the most famous homeless Republican in the United States of America right now, because you were tough on Donald Trump. You actually wound up voting for Hillary Clinton.
My question for you is, before we even get started, can you go home now to this Republican Party?
NAVARRO: I don't know what this Republican Party is. I think this is still a Republican Party under transition. I think you're still seeing -- and we won't know for a while what the Republican Party is going to look like.
I think it's going to be diverse voices, diversity of thought within the Republican Party and we're going to have to learn to live with that. We're going to have to learn to live with people that are pro- gay rights, like I am, and people that are against gay rights and equality of marriage, like some other Republicans are.
We're going to have to live with people who are against trade policy, right? Like, against TPP, like Donald Trump is, and a lot of the congressional leadership, which is in favor of trade.
JONES: So, you guys are going to be juggling chickens and chainsaws. Explain how that's going to work, Senator.
SANTORUM: Well, I think Donald Trump brings a pragmatism to the presidency that we haven't seen in a long time. I mean, I'm not necessarily tremendously excited about that, because I think that could mean some things that I may not see as beneficial to the country.
SANTORUM: But Donald Trump is going to go out there and follow through with the things he says he's going to do. I have no doubt about that whatsoever.
JONES: Well --
SANTORUM: And he is going to cut deals, because that's what he does.
SANTORUM: Which means he's actually going to try to get something done. He's going to try -- he's going to get something done on immigration. Frankly, a lot of it will be able to do by himself because the laws are already in place to do it.
He is going to do something on trade. He is going to try to negotiate. I have no doubt he's going to try to renegotiate NAFTA -- JONES: Senator, let me stop you for just one second, because as you
go through the list, I'm starting to get nervous and one reason why is because of the whole question around Muslims. And I really want to talk with you about this, especially you.
You are -- I mean, and nobody can deny this, you are in some ways America's sweater vest-wearing super dad, right? You are like the papa bear, right, of the Republican Party, really of American political life.
You don't have to agree with your politics to know what kind of a dad you are and the kind of stand that you take. But I've been hearing from Muslim parents, good American Muslim parents, whose children are terrified, afraid to even wear their hijab to school.
As a dad, how does that land in your heart?
SANTORUM: Well, I don't think -- I think it's baseless, to be honest with you. What Donald Trump is talking about is not bringing people into this country from countries that we can't properly vet, including the ones that Australia has rejected. That's not -- that shouldn't worry any Muslim in this country that we're going to be --
NAVARRO: Rick, I've got to ask you there, though. Have you read about the spike in hate crimes since Trump was elected? Do you think that's a coincidence?
Have you read about the Muslim women in college campuses, one in the subway here, who had their hijabs torn off their heads in public, and people have just stood by and seen it and watched it and not done anything? Do you think that's a coincidence?
SANTORUM: I --
NAVARRO: The bottom line is, Donald Trump released the kraken. He unleashed the level of racism and division and hostilities in America and you saw (INAUDIBLE) mentality. And now, if he wants to govern, he needs to put it back, put that back --
SANTORUM: I couldn't disagree with you more.
NAVARRO: Of course --
SANTORUM: I couldn't disagree with you more.
NAVARRO: But have you read about the spikes in hate crimes?
SANTORUM: But just because people misinterpret what someone says doesn't mean that that person is in the wrong. The person -- what Donald Trump focused on, legitimately, was ISIS and the influx of people coming into this country who could be harming this country.
SANTORUM: That to me is a legitimate thing to talk about. If people misinterpret that, there's always crazy people who take things and do dumb things.
That's not Donald Trump's responsibility. Donald Trump is going to stay focused and I think he'll do a good job and I think he'll get it done.
NAVARRO: Answer me, do you think the spike in hate crimes is a coincidence since Trump got elected?
SANTORUM: No. I -- no. I think, frankly, when people like Ana Navarro and Van Jones get up and talk about white-lash and how Donald Trump hates Muslims and all of the negative things that the press is spewing out there about what Trump's going to do --
SANTORUM: -- that's got people worked up more than anything else.
NAVARRO: So, you think when van and I highlight some of this stuff, it's hate spewing.
SANTORUM: It is --
NAVARRO: But you think when Donald Trump calls Mexican rapists and when Donald Trump calls Mexicans criminals, that's not hatred?
SANTORUM: It's not related.
JONES: We're talking about Muslims. Let's talk about -- hold on a second -- we're talking about Muslims, we can actually talk to some Muslims. That's part of the problem in America, we talk about people and not to them.
Can I talk to some? So, I'm going to come out here and talk to my --
NAVARRO: They're not even going to register them here.
JONES: That's right.
So, listen, I want to -- give a round of applause to Shabana Baksh.
Now, look, this young lady is a young Muslim and she is also a law student and one of the young people that we're probably most proud of in the country because you're doing the right thing every day.
Talk to us about your experience.
SHABANA BAKSH, CLINTON VOTER FROM NEW YORK: Thank you. Good evening.
And, Ana, I agree with everything that you've just said. As the results came in from this -- the recent election, I personally saw the devastation and the fear in the eyes of my fellow Muslim family members, my friends. As you mentioned recently, the incident with the young 18-year-old college student who was violently attacked in New York City going on the subway to get to school.
JONES: What were they chanting when they snatched her hijab off?
BAKSH: Go back to your country, go home, you know, you're not American.
And so, I -- you know, my question here is, how will the president- elect Trump ensure the safety of the Muslims in this country, ensure and ease our minds as our young Muslim women go to school and wear their hijabs every day? How will he ensure the safety of the Middle Eastern shop owner at the corner deli down the block?
SANTORUM: I think going from an Obama presidency to a Trump presidency, you should feel much better about religious liberty, because Barack Obama attacked religious liberty more than any president in the history of this country.
SANTORUM: And Donald Trump has said he's going to appoint justices and he's going to have a law enforcement that's going to make sure that religious liberty is vibrant, which means all religions.
I know some people hear religious liberty and think, oh, we're just talking about Christians. No, we're not. We're talking about all religions, and allowing people to practice that religion, including wearing clothing that's consistent with their religious traditions.
SANTORUM: So, the reality is on that front, he's going to be good.
Secondly, he's going to be a law and order president, which means that we are going to respect the law, and we're going to obey the law, and we're going to have police and a Justice Department that's going to enforce the law. The law protects minorities, protects people.
I would return the question to you. What is that Donald Trump said, not what other people have done, there's always people that are going to do mean things and take things, what is -- what are you concerned about that Donald Trump has said that's going to affect your life, with respect to being Muslim?
BAKSH: Well, I think, even recently, his rhetoric and idea of having a Muslim registry, things of that nature, his campaign was based on a platform of hatred for all that's different, for something that's not the majority. And I am of a minority background and faith. My parents immigrated here from outside of the country.
So, I think that his rhetoric, his base, his platform -- although maybe not all of his comments -- are directed specifically at Muslims. But they are targeting those minorities and anything that is different to him.
JONES: Thank you.
Can we talk a little bit? I really appreciate --
NAVARRO: Can you let me answer her question, though, about what Donald Trump is going to do?
I think -- you know, forget what Donald Trump is going to do. He's had a chance in the last three, four weeks, in the last months since being elected to go out and give unity speeches, to go out and heal the wounds, to go out and be the unifier. He hasn't done it.
It's up to us to stand with you. It's up to you to stand with your community.
NAVARRO: It's up to you to make sure that the press knows every time there's a hijab torn off a head. It's up to us to make sure that America sees these wounds and these -- the hurt and the fear that's out there.
If you ask me to figure out a silver lining to the Donald Trump presidency and election, I think it's that we can no longer pretend the racial divisions, the divisions and hostility in America don't exist. We can no longer sweep it under the rug.
NAVARRO: And we are at a crux in the road.
JONES: I want to --
NAVARRO: We either address and fix it, or we're going to be very torn as a country.
JONES: Senator, I want you to respond and I have my own question and we'll be moving on, but, Senator?
SANTORUM: Look, this is very troubling to hear that Donald Trump and conservatives, because, this is what you're referring to, are somehow stoking racial and religious -- that's just -- that's just not accurate.
The -- the reality is, what we're trying to do, as Van said in his opening remarks, we're looking at a country that says that we need address people in need in our society irrespective of their color. I think Donald Trump's message, this populist economic message, the
message about putting America first, the message about improving the quality of working men and women, actually is going to, over time, appeal to a lot of African-Americans and to a lot of Hispanics who find themselves in that situation.
SANTORUM: And all they're being talked about right now is race, bigotry, dividing, and just focusing on color, focusing on gender.
JONES: Senator, let me talk to --
SANTORUM: Instead of focusing on condition, and trying to raise that condition up.
JONES: Well, I tell you, first of all, you may well be right. Honestly. If, in fact, Republicans like Paul Ryan, who have been talking about an anti-poverty agenda, if, in fact, Donald Trump does follow through and does that reach out that you were bragging on him for, he may, in fact, change a lot of minds. But where we are right now, there's a lot of distrust.
SANTORUM: Give the man a chance.
JONES: I'm going to give him a chance. But I'm not going to give him a pass!
JONES: I'm not -- I have a question for you.
SANTORUM: He's given many unity speeches, contrary to what Ana said. He's talked about bringing --
JONES: But I remember when George W. Bush went to a mosque, right after 9/11 and you applauded him for it and the whole world did, and I hope at some point, he'll do that.
But I want to ask you a tougher question. It's a deeper question about our relationship now to the Muslim community in the United States. Right now, the Muslim community is awesome.
If a Muslim family moved next door to me, I would be the happiest person in the world, because the chance of my kids getting in trouble just went way down. Just went way down, because they have high educational attainment, they're your people -- they're faith, their family, they're hard-working. This is a model American community.
And yet, isn't there a danger, I know -- listen, I know where your heart is, sir, but isn't there a danger that this level of miscommunication, this level of misunderstanding, could drive a model community to the margins? And actually create the very thing you're afraid of, which is extremism? Are you worried about that? SANTORUM: No, I'm really not, because I don't see anything that
Donald Trump's going to do that's going to marginalize Muslim families who are just as you described -- decent, law-abiding, achieving people in our society. And I have friends, many of them, who fit that bill.
But at the same time, Donald Trump is concerned about Muslim families and Muslim clerics, not just overseas, but some here in this country who are supporting radical Islamic things and we need to be able to identify them and we need the Muslim community to work with us to resist that.
JONES: We are going to be having this conversation for a very long time.
I want to move on to one more point. We have with us Elizabeth Vilchis. She is, in fact, a young DREAMer, and she's got a question for you.
ELIZABETH VILCHIS, UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANT, LIVES IN NEW YORK: Yes. Thank you. Thank for having me, first of all, and for letting me be part of the discussion.
Growing up here in America, one thing I always heard was that there was a shortage of individuals who entered careers in science, engineering, and technology. And so, I decided to be part of the solution. I actually earned a degree in mechanical engineering. I have a career in the technology sector, and I've spent almost a decade working with students, getting them to focus on entering careers in engineering.
And I stand to lose all the work that I've done if the new administration decides to end DACA, which is the program that allows undocumented individuals like myself to have the ability to work. It's not an immigration status. It's just the ability to work.
I tend to -- I will lose my career. My career will come to an end if that program ends. And I will also possibly be labeled for deportation, which means that I'm going to be removed from the communities that I've contributed to so much.
And so, as 2017 starts, I'd like to ask for your advice. How would you advise somebody like me for planning my future and what lays ahead?
SANTORUM: Um -- yeah.
SANTORUM: My own personal story is my father came to this country when he was 7 years old. And the reason he came when he was 7 years old is because he wasn't allowed to come here until he was 7 years old.
JONES: How old were you --
VILCHIS: I was 7. JONES: You were 7 years old.
So -- and he wasn't allowed to come because there was a law in place that he couldn't come. My grandfather was here, and spent the first seven years living in America, working in America, but was not allowed to be with his family because of the immigration laws at the time.
And I remember asking my father, how -- and he was in Mussolini's Italy. Not a very, very pleasant place to be. And I remember asking him, and he hated Italy, because it was a horrible childhood in his mind. And I asked him, I said, "Did you ever resent America?" He said, "No, America was worth the wait. It was worth doing it the right way."
And I think what most people in America feel --
SANTORUM: -- is you've been given a tremendous benefit by being here in this country.
You just described something that -- I don't know what country that your parents came from, but my guess is you wouldn't have had the opportunities to be able to accomplish what you have --
JONES: Let her respond.
SANTORUM: And my final point is, you have the ability to go to any other country right now and apply those wares and be successful and reply to come back to America if you so choose --
VILCHIS: So, Senator --
JONES: Let her --
NAVARRO: Can I answer you?
NAVARRO: First of all, this is your country.
NAVARRO: No matter what he says, no matter what anybody else says, this is your country.
SANTORUM: That's not what the law says.
NAVARRO: And I as an American thank you for the contributions you are making to our joint country. (APPLAUSE)
NAVARRO: I want you here.
If you're asking me your advice as to what you can do. I think what you're doing right now. Anonymity is no longer an option for people like you. The government knows who you are. The government knows where you are. The government knows what you are.
JONES: Let's give her --
NAVARRO: They had you register for this program. You've got to tell your story --
JONES: You can do the last word.
NAVARRO: -- change and affect public opinion, because your stories are beautiful. They're the stories of the American dream.
VILCHIS: Thank you.
JONES: You can have the last word, ma'am.
VILCHIS: Yes, so, Senator, your grandfather had to stay there.
I didn't have a choice. I was brought here. I didn't understand what my situation was until I was much older and I was already contributing to my community.
I don't know if you're familiar with immigrations laws, but immigration can be very difficult depending on what country you come from. I come from Mexico, which means that -- and I contemplated this when I was graduating high school, because I was so desperate, I had begged my parents to let me go back home.
But what that meant is that I would have to go back home, and I'm banned for ten years. And Mexicans are just, no matter how talented you are, no matter what you've contributed, there's just no way to get back. And that's the reason a lot of people risk their lives to come here.
JONES: I bet that touches you, Senator?
SANTORUM: It's tragic to hear that. You know, I'm -- I have said that we need to re-look at reentry and ten years is punitive, I would agree with that. We could probably make it a shorter period of time, but as much as I I'm sympathetic with you, I'm also, you should recognize the gift that America is giving you and what you can give to the world.
JONES: I've got to take this break. I've got to take this break. I got to eat.
So, listen, I want to thank Ana Navarro and Rick Santorum. (APPLAUSE)
JONES: Love them. Love them. Amazing. Appreciate you. Love you.
Coming up, we've got -- you think this was hot. We've got the Oscar- winning filmmaker, the liberal activist, the legend, Michael Moore. He's going to be joining us. And we're going to take even more questions from the audience when we get back!
JONES: Welcome back to "The Messy Truth." I'm Van Jones.
Now, we're tough on Republicans sometimes. Here's the messy truth for Democrats, like I said, we kind of suck, too. We claim to be for the working class, but we left out a lot of workers in the Rust Belt, as you saw.
We claim to be the party for the next generation, but we offended all those young Bernie Sanders voters and we never fixed it the right way.
And as far as people of color, a lot of black folk don't feel like we're getting very much for our votes.
So, yes, I'm going to keep it messy for everybody. Both parties have to look at their problems.
So, to talk about it, we've got the liberal activist, the rabble rouser, the legendary filmmaker, Michael Moore, in the house.
JONES: Love it, I love it.
MICHAEL MOORE, FILMMAKER: Thank you.
JONES: So, now, I know you were hot about that last segment but I don't want to talk about that yet. We've got to talk about these Democrats.
MOORE: Yes, yes. By the way, who sucked because there's no definition for a party that twice in 16 years wins the popular vote and loses the election.
JONES: Yes --
MOORE: How do -- you can't explain that to people in other countries. How do the Democrats -- they lose when they win. It's --
JONES: Well, but I want to get your opinion on it, because, you know, the Hillary Clinton campaign came out, you know, several days ago, and they didn't seem to really get the message. They were blaming the Comey letter for pretty much everything. You have to have a better explanation for what went wrong for Democrats in the Comey letter. What is it? MOORE: First of all, I haven't been grieving for the last month
because I got over my five stages back in June when I wrote a blog that millions read that said the five reasons Trump is going to win. And I said, and this is how he's going to do it. He's going to win what I call the four Brexit states. He's going to win Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin.
JONES: Wow. You got four out of four?
MOORE: Yes. And there's a lot of numbers too, by the way, if you need help.
JONES: But let me ask a question -- you must have had a massive polling operation that Democrats spent millions on, yes or no?
JONES: A huge focus group, yes or no?
JONES: You must have a massive data set, a billion dollar set like the Democrats, yes or no?
JONES: So, you were -- so the Democrats set a billion dollars on fire, and they could have just asked you?
MOORE: Yes, right.
And actually -- I actually -- I offered -- I was actually trying to set up a meeting when it was -- when -- definitely in August and September, and I knew this was happening, because I live in Michigan, OK? So I -- I don't live in the bubble. I vote in Michigan. I -- I -- you know, it's my home.
MOORE: I grew up there. And I could see that like the first family that you had on, there were a lot of Barack Obama voters that were going to vote for Trump.
JONES: You saw it coming?
MOORE: Yes, a long time ago. And -- and it's because the people in the -- in the Rust Belt have suffered, suffered considerably. And nobody has been there for them, not the Republicans, definitely. The Democrats are there sometimes, but not always. And -- and they're -- and they saw Trump as their human Molotov cocktail that they wanted to throw into the system and blow it up.
They didn't necessarily -- like you said at the beginning of the show, they didn't necessarily agree with everything about Trump, but they were angry enough, wanting to -- to make this point and send a message, like they did in the Brexit vote in -- in England. JONES: Well -- well, that -- that thing was coming.
MOORE: The message has been sent.
JONES: The message sent and delivered.
You saw it. You tried to warn folks. They didn't listen. we've got people in the audience that have a lot to say about this
And the first person I want to hear from is Michael Darr, who has never voted for a Republican, but he voted for Donald Trump.
MICHAEL DARR, TRUMP VOTER FROM NEW YORK: Mr. Moore, I just wanted to say my grandparents are from Aleppo, so I'm the grandson of Syrian immigrants. The hate crimes against Arab people is definitely a very real thing.
But I wanted to know why doesn't the Democratic Party disavow the violence against Arabs in countries like Syria with terrorist groups like Arar Al-Sham, Jabhat al-fatehi al-Sham (ph), that they directly support with their policies.
And will there -- will -- will they focus on the people that are really dying and really suffering...
DARR: -- that they claim to care so much about in this country?
MOORE: Yes, I can't answer for the Democratic Party or these politicians. And -- and you called them policies. You could also call them non-policies.
And it's -- it's -- it's why I think a lot of people were drawn to Trump, because -- because he seemed to -- he's that kind of guy who's going to like do something. And -- and -- and he understands, you know, the importance of the perception. And he understands how quickly he can change the perception, too, because he changes himself...
MOORE: -- you know, every other day.
But -- but I think -- I want to say this to you as a...
MOORE: -- as an African-American...
MOORE: -- that while I have a lot of understanding as to why people I grew up with in the Midwest, who are like me, an angry white guy with a high school education, that's me, but I -- you know, the thing is, though, you have a responsibility, no matter how angry you are, no matter how much you're hurting, to not vote for somebody who says things that are hateful, who ridicules the disabled, who says racist things. You -- I mean -- I mean black people have been hurting for a long time...
MOORE: -- and they don't go into the voting booth and go who can I -- who -- who's the biggest hater on the ballot here I can vote for?
You know, do you have a -- we have -- we have a responsibility...
JONES: I like...
MOORE: -- to vote out of love.
JONES: -- (INAUDIBLE) let me -- let me tell you something. I like what you're saying. I -- and I'm torn. On the one hand, I think what you've got is you have to recognize that hurt people holler. And when people are sitting on -- on a white hot stove, you know, they -- they sometimes make decisions that other people don't understand.
JONES: And, frankly, a lot of the -- the young African-Americans are protesting people they're confused by. So I'm -- I'm a little bit torn.
But what I want to -- what I -- I like about what you're saying is that we've almost gotten to the point in the country that were saying we're going to let the white guys just -- they can't possibly think past their lunch pail. They just can't possibly. So they're just -- they're -- they -- we aren't going to actually ask them to stand with everyone else.
And the problem we have now is the underdogs in the red states and the underdog in -- in the blue states who have a common pain don't have a common purpose now and they're mad at each other.
Isn't it awful that poor and working class folks in the red states and poor and working class folks in the blue states are now mad at each other?
MOORE: Well, remember, poor and working class is black and white and Hispanic.
MOORE: It comes -- it comes in all colors. And -- and many Americans have suffered over the last 20 years.
MOORE: And politicians have not helped them. So they -- they're angry. And in a state like Michigan...
JONES: Part of what's going on, though, is, you know, we're kind of having this high-minded conversation. But I think about my liberal friends, who are just basically in a four week long freak-out right now. I mean they're -- we're talking all this lofty stuff.
JONES: But you've got a lot of -- a lot of Democrats that are just swinging back and forth between denial and -- and blind panic.
JONES: And -- and, you know...
MOORE: I would...
JONES: -- some of the stuff that you said actually might fall into that category.
JONES: So -- so are -- is the stuff that you're doing when you're out there -- I'm just -- just curious now...
JONES: -- because I want Democrats to think and not just have, you know, crazy emotions.
JONES: You -- sometimes you're out there saying, you know, you're talking about Nazi Germany and all this sort of stuff.
Are you stoking up Democrats to the point where we can't even think as high-minded as this conversation?
MOORE: It's not Nazi Germany we need to worry about. It's the friendly fascism of the 21st century. And -- and I think Democrats -- people who voted for Hillary, first of all, feel good about the fact that the majority of your fellow Americans did not want Donald J. Trump as their president. That's the majority by over two and a half million.
So take some comfort in that your fellow Americans, you know...
JONES: Are with you?
MOORE: -- did -- are with you.
MOORE: Number one. Number two...
JONES: Yes? MOORE: -- you know, we've got to get active here. We've got to...
JONES: Yes, I agree with that. But...
MOORE: -- can I just say this -- let me just say this.
JONES: But -- and then I've got to get one voice in here.
JONES: You've got to hear this guy.
MOORE: No, let's hear the guy (INAUDIBLE)...
JONES: You're going to love this guy.
MOORE: But I -- yes, go ahead.
JONES: That's good.
So I want to bring in, who I think has got something important to say to you.
CHRIS VITALE, TRUMP VOTER FROM MICHIGAN: When I was a kid growing up, I listened to Lee Iacocca tell us how this country got screwed on trade deals. Right now, Germany puts 19 percent tax on an American car that gets shipped to Germany. China does even more. China does that to ensure production in China. NAFTA was supposed to create a Mexican middle class. Twenty-five years later, the average Mexican manufacturing wage is $2.49 an hour.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
VITALE: I don't necessarily believe that Donald Trump is a hater. I think he's a businessman.
Tell me why I shouldn't have voted for him when my own union didn't back him and his own party doesn't back him on trade, but he's willing to speak the truth?
MOORE: On that issue, I can't tell you that you -- that -- that -- I can't -- because he -- because what he says -- now, what he'll do, I don't know what he'll do. You know, but what he says is that NAFTA was wrong. He was -- that's correct, it was wrong. TPP is wrong.
All of the whole unfair thing that got set up. And Democrats and Republicans screwed the working class of this country.
And the low unemployment that we have now is, in large part, due to the fact that yes, people have jobs, but they don't have the union jobs, the middle class jobs that they used to have.
So -- so -- so but let's see what he does with that, because -- because ultimately, he's a billionaire who looks out -- he has an ideology that he believes in and it's called Donald J. Trump.
MOORE: That's what he's going to make sure that he takes care of.
JONES: Hey, look...
MOORE: I don't think he's going to take care of you, the working person.
VITALE: I think he's done more for me than any Democrat has done in my lifetime.
MOORE: He hasn't done anything for you yet.
VITALE: He raised the issue.
VITALE: He raised the issue...
MOORE: He raised...
VITALE: -- and that's more than any of them have done.
MOORE: -- he raised the issue.
JONES: Hey, let -- let him talk. Let him talk.
What have -- what has he -- by the way, this is a (INAUDIBLE)...
MOORE: He raised the issue.
JONES: -- wait, hold on a second.
He's a Chrysler worker and he's from a state I think you've heard of, called Michigan. Just so what has he done for you?
VITALE: In a county you've heard of called Macomb.
MOORE: That's right.
VITALE: I can tell you this, no other politician in my lifetime has ever brought this issue to the forefront. And the fact of the matter is we do get screwed on trade.
VITALE: And they tell these companies to be more global. Well, when you add $9,000 to the price of a Jeep when it goes to Germany, I'm frankly amazed they can sell any of them over there, let alone a few of them.
MOORE: Right. And when... VITALE: And that needs to change.
MOORE: -- and when he doesn't follow through, when he doesn't get rid of NAFTA, when you're still screwed in Michigan five months from now, two years from now, where are you going to be then on this issue?
JONES: How do you know he's not going to follow through, Michael?
MOORE: There's nothing in his behavior -- the man is, first of all, a malignant narcissist and -- and he's...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow!
MOORE: -- only about himself, folks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow!
MOORE: And you're about to see that happen in...
JONES: Hey, listen...
MOORE: -- in spade.
JONES: I hate to say this...
JONES: I hate to say this...
VITALE: You could say the same thing about Hillary Clinton.
JONES: Wait, wait, hold on, guys. Hold on. I hate to be the one to say this, it makes me feel very odd. But he's not an idiot. He's going to get reelected...
MOORE: He's not an idiot.
JONES: -- he's going to get reelected by these guys...
JONES: -- can't you give him a chance at least on the stuff you agree with him on?
MOORE: I can't even imagine he's thinking about reelection. I think -- I can't even imagine he's thinking about I've got to do this for four years?
Not -- not fair.
JONES: OK, listen, we've got -- I've got to get one more voice in here. Hey, thank you so much, sir.
VITALE: Thank you.
JONES: We've got -- yes, you give him a round of applause.
Thank you, sir.
JONES: We've got Rebeca Liebson here, a sophomore at Stony Brook University.
She's got a tough political question for you.
REBECCA LIEBSON, CLINTON VOTER FROM NEW YORK: Hi.
So I've grown up in an era that's greatly been characterized by political gridlock.
So with that being said, what do you think is the best move going forward for the Congressional Democrats?
Do you think that they're going to be as oppositional as the GOP was...
MOORE: Oh, I hope so.
JONES: -- under Obama?
MOORE: Oh, yes.
LIEBSON: Or do you think...
MOORE: I hope...
JONES: -- they're actually going to...
JONES: -- try and reach across the aisle and (INAUDIBLE) coalition?
MOORE: No. No, no, no, no, no. No. This is not the kumbaya moment here. They -- the Democrats in Congress, they represent the majority -- the majority of Americans, let's say it again, wanted Hillary Clinton. The majority of Americans did not want Donald Trump.
It is the responsibility of this minority of Democrats in Congress...
JONES: Hey, wait, hold on...
MOORE: -- to block, obstruct, disrupt, and do whatever they can to prevent the onslaught that is...
JONES: But Michael -- Michael, wait.
MOORE: -- going to happen with Donald Trump...
JONES: Wait. Wait. Hold on a second.
MOORE: -- that the American people do not support.
JONES: Wait a minute. I have -- I keep feeling so odd, sir.
MOORE: I've ruined your kumbaya moment.
JONES: I know. Exactly.
MOORE: I'm sorry.
JONES: I just -- but let -- but let me just push back on you as a...
MOORE: Yes, yes, yes. (INAUDIBLE)...
JONES: I'm on the left side of Pluto just like you.
MOORE: Yes, yes. Yes.
JONES: But let me just say a couple of things...
MOORE: I wore a tie for you, by the way.
JONES: And I -- and I appreciate that, sir.
JONES: Listen, when the Republicans did this, they blocked our president on everything.
JONES: And you know who suffered?
JONES: Those workers suffered, the kids in Oakland suffered...
JONES: -- the whole country suffered.
JONES: Are you saying that -- that now Democrats should have a policy of imposing that same suffering for four more years?
You're saying we shouldn't even try to find any way out?
MOORE: Their job is to stop the suffering that these people are going to cause. And let me tell you something, he's going to be inaugurated on January 20th and January 21st, which is a Saturday, don't be surprised if the Republicans call a Saturday session of Congress and they are going to pass law after law after law and have him sign it the next day and it's going to be one piece of suffering against people after another.
And it is the job of the Democrats now to stop the suffering that he's about to create for the American people. That is -- that is their job and they have to do it and they'd better be planning it right now...
JONES: Yes, and I'm going to tell you...
MOORE: -- instead of being the wimps that they usually are.
JONES: -- well, and this is going to be, again, here's a -- here's a messy truth for Democrats.
JONES: It's easy to say that, but when you've got to go back to a -- to a district and you've got to say we're going to turn down infrastructure and that type of stuff, it's going to be a lot tougher than that.
JONES: But (INAUDIBLE)...
MOORE: I'm not saying turn that down, I'm just saying, but they'd better know, when they go back to the district this spring, in the same way the Tea Party was there in 2009, myself and thousands like me are going to be at those town halls...
MOORE: -- in the districts in the spring.
MOORE: And we will -- and we will primary them, these Democrats...
MOORE: -- if they don't do their job.
JONES: -- yourself warned.
JONES: Consider yourself warned.
MOORE: That's the messy truth.
JONES: All right. OK. That the messy truth.
JONES: Well, listen, I -- I want to thank you and I want -- we had an honest conversation here tonight. But this is only the beginning.
I hope that you are going to take this conversation back to your dinner tables, back to work tomorrow, the water cooler and your communities.
Thank you very much.
"CNN TONIGHT WITH DON LEMON" starts right now.