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Mexico Not Going to Pay for the Wall; Trump Talks Torture; Chinese New Year Celebrates Year of the Rooster; Meeting with World Leaders. Aired 3-4a ET

Aired January 26, 2017 - 03:00   ET



ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN ANCHOR: Not going to pay. Mexico's president slams Donald Trump's move to build a border wall but stays mum on a planned meeting with his American counterpart.

Tough talk. The U.S. president says torture works, but will his advisers agree?

Also ahead, tens of millions hit the road in China. The year of the rooster is upon us.

Hello and welcome to our viewers all around the world. I'm Rosemary Church, and this is CNN NEWSROOM.

A backlash is growing against plans by the U.S. president to crack down on refugees and immigration.

Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto is facing growing pressure to cancel his trip to Washington to meet Donald Trump. The Mexican leader says he disapproves of Mr. Trump's plan to build a wall along the U.S.-Mexican border, and he repeated his country will not pay for it.

Mr. Trump is expected to issue more executive orders Thursday, this time on trade. A senior White House official declined to offer details other than to say it will be big.

And even though there's no proof of widespread voter fraud, a senior administration official says the president could order a federal investigation in the coming day.

Well, a growing number of election officials across the U.S. are coming forward to dispute Mr. Trump's fraud claims. Even members of his own party are joining the chorus, and he's likely to face pushback on another key initiative.

CNN's senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta reports.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It's a campaign promise no more. Now it's reality as President Trump signed an executive order instructing the federal government to start construction of a wall on the U.S.-Mexico border.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The secretary of Homeland Security working with myself and my staff will begin immediate construction of a border wall.



ACOSTA: The president unveiled the executive actions during a visit to the Department of Homeland Security. In addition to the wall, the orders direct DHS to step up the identification and deportation of undocumented criminals, as well as strip away federal funding from so- called sanctuary cities that harbor undocumented immigrants.

But the moves are seen as an insult in Mexico, where former President Vicente Fox has adamantly said his country will not, as President Trump puts it, pay for the wall.


VICENTE FOX, FORMER PRESIDENT OF MEXICO: I'm not going to pay for that (muted) wall.


ACOSTA: Yes, they will, the president told ABC News but only as a reimbursement after U.S. taxpayers initially foot the bill.


TRUMP: I'm just telling you there will be a payment. It will be in a form, perhaps a complicated form. And you have to understand what I'm doing is good for the United States. It's also going to be very good for Mexico. We want to have a very stable, very solid Mexico.


ACOSTA: The president isn't stopping there. Next he's expected to sign an executive order temporarily suspending the nation's refugee program and restrict visas to people entering the U.S. from what the administration calls terror-prone countries.

But the White House is pushing back on reports of another executive order that would preserve the terror detention facility at Guantanamo. Reconsider harsh interrogation techniques and secret CIA interrogation sites used during the Bush administration.




ACOSTA: Even though his new Defense Secretary, James Mattis has said such harsh methods don't work, the president told ABC he supports tactics like water boarding.


TRUMP: But I have spoken as recently as 24 hours ago with people at the highest level of intelligence, and I asked them the question. Does it work? Does torture work? And the answer was yes, absolutely.


ACOSTA: Republican Senator and former POW John McCain is saying no way, warning in a tweet, "POTUS can sign whatever executive orders he likes, but the law is the law. We're not bringing back torture."

Mr. Trump is also standing his ground when it comes to his claims of widespread voter fraud in the U.S., tweeting he's asking for a major investigation into voting irregularities he claims cost him the popular vote. A probe that White House suggests could target the nation's biggest states.


SPICER: There's a lot of states that we didn't compete it and where that's not necessarily the case. If you look at California and New York...


ACOSTA: Democratic leaders are alarmed.


NANCY PELOSI, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES MINORITY LEADER: I frankly feel very sad about the president making this claim. I felt sorry for him. I even prayed for him. But then I prayed for the United States of America.


ACOSTA: And the White House insists the president is determined to intervene in high-time cities like Chicago where he tweeted he will send in the Feds if street violence there continues.


SPICER: I think what the president is upset about is turning on the television and seeing Americans get killed by shootings, seeing people walking down the street and getting shot down.


[03:04:59] ACOSTA: President Trump was scheduled to meet with Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto next week. In a video message to Mexicans, Pena Nieto did not scrap the trip, but he emphasized "Mexico is not paying for that wall."

Jim Acosta, CNN, the White House. CHURCH: President Trump is considering a blanket ban for up to four

months on all refugees. The plan could also stop anyone from a list of majority Muslim countries from traveling to the United States.

CNN's Ben Wedeman joins me now from Istanbul in Turkey. Good to see you, Ben. So how are people in Turkey and across the region reacting to news of President Trump's possible temporary ban on refugees?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, here for instance, in Turkey, we haven't heard any sort of response to this draft proposal. Of course, we don't know the precise details.

But in general, Turkish officials are positive about President Trump's new administration. The President here Recep Tayyip Erdogan, has in the past expressed optimism about U.S.-Turkish relations in the aftermath of some fairly tense times between Ankara and Washington under the Obama administration.

Yesterday, for instance, the Turkish prime minister came out and said that Turkey is willing to provide the United States with assistance and advice in the United States effort under a Trump administration to rebuild its infrastructure given that Turkey has spent a lot of time and effort to build up its own.

But elsewhere, obviously reaction not so positive. Certainly we've seen, for instance, the Jordanian lower house of parliament yesterday came out with a statement condemning any talk from the United States or the possibility that it would move its embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

We heard Muqtada al-Sadr, the firebrand Iraqi cleric saying that moving the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem would be tantamount to a declaration of war against Islam itself.

So, mixed reactions to everything that's coming out of Washington, but certainly we can fairly confidently predict that these will be interesting days. Rosemary.

CHURCH: Yes. I think you're right there. So, Ben, how much interest in the region is there for what the new U.S. president is planning in the first few days, weeks, and months of his administration? We heard there from some high-profile figures, but what about the person on the street? What's the feeling? Is it possible to gauge?

WEDEMAN: It's really difficult at this point because certainly people are pre-occupied with their own concerns. But I mean, for instance, in Iraq we've had generally very negative reactions to President Trump's statement at CIA headquarters on Saturday that perhaps the United States would have another chance to take Iraq's oil.

On the street, the reaction was angry, and we heard from Haider al- Abadi, the Prime Minister saying that such talk is unacceptable.

And this, of course, is in a country where there are more than 5,000 U.S. service personnel assisting Iraq in its war against ISIS. So, I think generally the reaction is a bit of confusion. This is a presidency unlike any other in American history, and certainly for the Middle East, I think your ordinary Palestinian, Jordanian, Iraqi and Turk is having as much difficulty trying to figure out this administration as Americans are. Rosemary?

CHURCH: All right. Our Ben Wedeman bringing us some reaction there from Istanbul, Turkey, with a great backdrop with the snow, just after 11 o'clock in the morning. Many thanks to you, Ben.

Well, Britain's exit from the European Union takes another step on Thursday when the government introduces its Brexit bill in parliament. Debate isn't expected until next week.

Meantime, Prime Minister Theresa May is headed to the United States where she will address congressional republicans and meet with President Donald Trump.

For more on that, Max Foster joins us now live from London. So, Max, Theresa May will be the first foreign leader to meet with the new U.S. president. And with that, of course, comes a great deal of pressure. What's expected out of their meeting on Friday, and what is she hoping to achieve?

MAX FOSTER, CNN HOST: Well, there's all sorts of issues that will come up. She's -- he's a very controversial figure here in the U.K. and in Europe and lots of voters are very concerned about many of his policies.

But Theresa May has got this one big issue. You've already mentioned it. It's Brexit. Britain is leaving the European Union, and it needs to offset the costs of that somehow. And what better than a trade deal with the United States?

[03:10:01] And all the indications are that Donald Trump will oblige because he was a big supporter of Brexit. He's talked warmly of a special relationship between the U.S. and the U.K.

Some question about his motivation for wanting to support a trade deal, but it does look as though he's going to give that to Theresa May. And before she meets him today, she'll go to a retreat of republicans, which has upset some democrats, it seems.

But she's going to speak to senior republicans and she's going to talk about how Britain can carve its place in the world as an independent sovereign state away from the European Union, and it can rekindle that very special relationship with the United States and carve new ones as well.

So, she sees Britain as having a global role and one of the key partners in that is the United States.

CHURCH: All right. And of course Theresa May and Donald Trump hold very different views on issues like globalization, trade, NATO, women's issues, and of course, now torture. How likely is it that she will be honest about how she feels about some of these issues? FOSTER: Well, she says she can be honest because of this special

relationship. But there are, as you say, very clear differences between them. And on that trade deal, that's going to be very interesting because in Brussels, there's going to be a huge amount of concern about that partly because Theresa May shouldn't be negotiating a trade deal while she's still part of the European Union.

But also the idea that Donald Trump wants to torpedo the whole idea of the European Union, and he may be using this U.K. trade deal as an example of that.

So, he wants to see the future in bilateral, not multilateral trade deals. So, perhaps he's suggesting to other members of the European Union that they could also leave and sign a trade deal with the U.S. just as the U.K. could.

And that would really undermine what Theresa May has been saying recently, which is that she does believe in free trade and she does want to have a strong European Union, that she eventually wants to negotiate with herself to get a trade deal with the European Union.

The other issue that came up in parliament yesterday was this one that you've talked about, which is torture. A suggestion that Theresa May should be very clear that Britain doesn't condone torture and cannot work with a country that does.

And then shortly after that, we heard about Donald Trump's comments on torture, which you've already reported on. So that's a very sensitive issue here in the U.K. So, I mean it really is a political tight rope for her. But the only thing she can do is talk to the common ground they have and try to avoid the things that they haven't -- that they don't have in common.

CHURCH: Absolutely. And of course we'll be watching very closely as will the international community. Max Foster, joining us live from London. Many thanks.

Well, Asian markets are reacting positively to some record setting numbers for the U.S. stock market. The Nikkei is up. It added nearly 2 percent there. And when you take a look at the Hang Seng in Hong Kong, 1.41 percent increase.

Ours is up there in Australia adding more than a third of a percent and a similar -- a similar rise there for the Shanghai Composite. And the Asian markets may have the bullish gains in the U.S. to thank.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average broke 20,000 for the first time in history, and the S&P 500 and NASDAQ closed at record highs as well. The markets have seen a big bump since Trump's election after many investors feared he might trigger a crash.

Well, U.S. President Donald Trump is defying experts and international law with his latest comments on torture. We just discussed that. What he said, that's coming next.

And why a high-level North Korean defector says it would be a mistake for Mr. Trump to sit down with Kim Jong-un. We'll talk about that as well.


RHIANNON JONES, CNN WORLD SPORTS ANCHOR: I'm Rhiannon Jones with your CNN World Sport headlines.

Usain Bolt will have to hand back one of his nine Olympic gold medals after one of his teammates tested positive for a banned substance. Nesta Carter was part of the Jamaican 4 set that won the 1oo-meter relay in Beijing back in 2008.

Carter was one of 154 doping samples selected to be retested by the International Olympic Committee last year and has been found to contain a banned stimulant, which means that Bolt's unprecedented triple-triple achieved in Rio last summer after winning three gold at three Olympic Games no longer stands.

CNN has reached out to Bolt's agent for comment. Bolt is not implicated in doping in any way.

To football now. And it's not only Liverpool who got knocked out of the cup competition on Wednesday but Real Madrid as well. They crushed out of the Copa Del Rey to Celta Vigo.

Real Madrid went into the clash with a 2-1 first leg deficit, and it went from bad to worst. Celta Vigo took the lead with an unfortunate own goal from Danilo. Cristiano Ronaldo pulled one back for his side before Daniel Wass fight the host into semifinals.

But the then this 2-2 and the European champions are out of the King's Cup.

And seven-time Africa Cup of Nations champion Egypt have gone through as group D winners. The only goal of the game was an absolute (Inaudible) stunning free kick from Mohamed Salah.

That's a look at your sports headlines. I'm Rhiannon Jones.


TRUMP: I have spoken as recently as 24 hours ago with people at the highest level of intelligence, and I asked them the question, does it work? Does torture work? And the answer was yes, absolutely.


CHURCH: Welcome back. Well, the U.S. president there saying he believes torture absolutely works. Current U.S. law bans torture of any kind. Mr. Trump's comments came on the same day he used executive orders to crack down on illegal immigration and call for a major investigation into unsubstantiated claims of massive voter fraud during the election he won.

Joining us now to discuss all of this, CNN global affairs analyst, David Rohde. Great to see you again, David.


CHURCH: Well, it wasn't so long ago, was it, that Mr. Trump was agreeing with his Defense Secretary James Mattis that some beers and a carton of cigarettes were more useful than torture. But now he's returning to his initial position on the issue. Is there any consensus on whether or not torture works?

ROHDE: Well, the broad consensus is that it does not work. The United States' allies don't use it. Britain doesn't use it. No one in Europe uses it. There's many Israelis who argue that it's ineffective at least to the production of false information.

There may be some CIA officers who are retired argue that it has worked, but the vast majority of officers that I've spoken to feel it doesn't work, and most of all sort of hurts the broader U.S. effort to counter terrorism because it plays into this narrative from ISIS and other groups that the U.S. is hypocritical. It violates human rights. It doesn't defend them.

CHURCH: And even republican U.S. lawmakers were quick to react. Let's take a listen.


JOHN MCCAIN, (R) UNITED STATES SENATOR: You name them. Any military leader you respect have said we should not torture people, and I'm -- I'm very confident that it wouldn't stand a day in court if they tried to restore that.

JOHN THUNE, (R) UNITED STATES SENATOR: Congress has spoken. But with respect to torture, that's banned. The army field manual makes that very clear, and the law now is tied to the army field manual.


CHURCH: So, we're already seeing some resistance here. Can President Trump just bring torture back given it is currently banned?

ROHDE: He cannot bring back torture and use that legal term. It is barred under American law. Congress would vote have to -- would have to vote to change the law.

[03:20:01] The concern is that he could reinstate what the George W. Bush administration called Enhanced Interrogation Techniques. That was simulated drowning known as waterboarding, sleep deprivation and other techniques that the George W. Bush administration said wasn't torture but was widely viewed as torture and seen as torture.

So, that's what the real concern about. Would they carry out these torture methods but not call them torture?

CHURCH: And, David, the White House spokesperson was forced to deny that the president is considering the return of black side prison. Those are the secret CIA locations used overseas for military interrogations. How is that likely to go down both here in the United States and of course overseas? ROHDE: Well, there was a draft document that leaked today and the

Washington Post got a copy of it. Reuters, we looked at it, now we couldn't get anyone to confirm it. But it talks about a study to see if these black sites should be reopened.

A critical problem is that what country is going to want to do this to help the United States? You know, right after 9/11, Lithuania, Poland, and several other nations allowed -- Thailand allowed black sites to exist on their territory. It's extremely unpopular internationally now.

Some argue that President Trump is doing the greatest job of getting foreign countries to want to back his administration. So that's the biggest logistical hurdle overseas, and many CIA officers don't want to work on these black sites or carry out these secret activities.

Many of them feared prosecution when George W. Bush left office. President Obama did not prosecute them, but they essentially don't trust American politics. They're career CIA officers. They're worried there could be a change, you know, in the government in Washington, and they could do things under a Trump administration that would be viewed illegal by a future administration.

CHURCH: So, David, torture, allegations of massive voting fraud, a crackdown on illegal immigration. Mr. Trump is bringing all of these subjects to the fore just days into his presidency. What's your reaction to the direction we're seeing play out in the early days of the Trump administration?

ROHDE: Well, to be fair, he's done a very good job in other meetings to talk about creating jobs and that's sort of a core issue in his campaign. The border wall, there's a question, you know, what all these things will actually do.

Again, if he wants to talk about jobs, that's effective politically, but reinstating black sites, you know, coming back with torture, what will actually be achieved?

There's only been 100 people who have died in terrorist attacks in the United States since the 9/11 attacks. That's 100 people over 15 years, what are all these policies in response to? What crisis is happening in terms of terrorism?

Clearly the Islamic state is extremely dangerous. They've done horrific things, most of all in the Middle East but in Europe and in some cases in the United States. But it's unclear what these radical changes are sort of in response to?

CHURCH: Just days in we're keeping a very close eye on developments. David Rohde, thank you so much for joining us so much.

ROHDE: Thank you.

CHURCH: We appreciate it.

And Mr. Trump could be trying to help shore up U.S. allies in Asia. He is sending new Defense Secretary James Mattis to Japan and South Korea next week. The four-day trip comes as some question the president's commitment to these longtime allies. This could also be a sign that North Korean provocations are at the top of the U.S. agenda.

Meanwhile, a North Korean diplomat says Kim Jong-un's control over his country is crumbling. The diplomat is now free of Kim's regime and can speak his mind without fear. He's now sending blunt warnings to Washington and Beijing.

Our Paula Hancocks reports.

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kim Jong-un is planning a massive nuclear push this year, exploiting power changes in the United States and South Korea. That's the opinion of this man, the highest ranking North Korean diplomat to defect in almost 20 years.

Thae Yong-ho escaped his embassy in London last summer. He tells me Donald Trump's rise to power shocked them all.


THAE YONG-HO, FORMER NORTH KOREAN DIPLOMAT: Trump, you know, changed the course. So it is really, really a surprise to Kim Jong-un and North Korean regime.


HANCOCKS: Thae says Kim Jong-un sees an opportunity for a new relationship with President Trump as long as he's not asked to give up the one thing that worries the world most.


HANCOCKS: There's nothing that Washington or anybody else could do to convince him to give up his nuclear weapons?

YONG-HO: He will never give up his nuclear development. If American continues his policies against North Korea, then he openly said he will continue to military capability with nuclear weapons and also, you know, he calls it preemptive strike capability. That is ICBM.


HANCOCKS: Kim Jong-un has said he is close to test launching an intercontinental ballistic missile or ICBM. Thae says he should be taken at his word.

[03:25:06] As for President Trump suggesting he may meet Kim Jong-un, a terrible idea according to Thae.


YONG-HO: It may serve to justify his legitimacy of the leader of North Korea and even Chinese President Xi Jinping and even Russian President, you know, Putin. They haven't met, you know, to Kim Jong- un. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HANCOCKS: Thae has a blunt warning for China. If you don't do more to cut off funds for the North's sneaky nuclear ambitions, you may regret it.


YONG-HO: In the future, in the long run it can be a direct threat to China as well.

HANCOCKS: You think there could be a scenario where North Korea turns on China?

YONG-Ho: According to international geopolitics, there is no eternal enemy or friend.


HANCOCKS: Thae says there's no trust, no loyalty among elites in North Korea, just fear as Kim Jong-un continues to execute high- ranking officials, often he claims without proper cause or explanation. Thae may have escaped what he calls the slave system with his wife and two sons, but says freedom is bittersweet.


YONG-HO: I spent 50 years of my life on the wrong side.


HANCOCKS: Paula Hancocks, CNN, Seoul.

CHURCH: We'll take a short break here. Still to come, President Trump signals the start of a massive new wall along the U.S.-Mexico border. But the leader of Mexico has a few things to say about that.

Plus, it's the year of the rooster, and millions are on the move to celebrate the lunar New Year holiday. Back in a moment.


CHURCH: A warm welcome back to our viewers all across the world. I'm Rosemary Church. I want to update you on the main stories we're following this hour.

U.S. President Donald Trump says he believes torture absolutely works when it comes to fighting terrorists. But he tells ABC News he will follow the advice of his defense secretary and CIA director on whether to use it.

Lawmakers in Jordan have issued a statement condemning any U.S. attempts to move the American embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

The White House says it's in the very early stages on deciding whether that move will happen. Critics say moving the embassy would harm future peace deals between Israelis and Palestinians.

Mexico's president is scheduled to come to Washington next week to meet with U.S. President Donald Trump. Enrique Pena Nieto went on television Wednesday to denounce U.S. plans to build a border wall. He vowed that Mexico would not pay for it as Mr. Trump has pledged.

Well, Mr. Trump kicked off the process of building the wall with an executive order on Wednesday.

CNN's Michelle Kosinski explains the ambitious project that faces many hurdles.

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: President Trump takes the first step on one of his first campaign promises - to build the wall.


TRUMP: Beginning today, the United States of America gets back control of its borders, gets back its borders.


KOSINSKI: Now with executive action, he directs the Department of Homeland Security to start building it immediately along the 1,900 mile long border with Mexico, using existing federal money to get it starts.


TRUMP: The secretary of Homeland Security working with myself and my staff will begin immediate construction of a border wall.



KOSINSKI: President Trump tells ABC News he's also standing by his campaign pledge to make Mexico pay for it.


DAVI MUIR, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: Will American taxpayers pay for the wall?

TRUMP: Ultimately it will come out of what's happening with Mexico. We're going to be starting those negotiations relatively soon, and we will be in a form reimbursed by Mexico.

MUIR: So they'll pay us back?

TRUMP: Yes, absolutely. 100%.

MUIR: When does construction begin?

TRUMP: As soon as we can. As soon as we can physically do it, we're a... MUIR: Within months?

TRUMP: I would say in months, yes. I would say in months. Certainly planning on starting immediately.


KOSINSKI: It's not clear where the existing money would come from to pay for the wall, and Congress would still need to approve any new funding to build it. Trump himself has estimated the cost around $10 billion.

But today's move also means beefing up manpower on the border. Five thousand additional customs and border protection officers.

And in his second executive action signed today, the president is increasing deportations of undocumented immigrants, tripling resources for enforcement and withholding funding from so-called sanctuary cities. When local municipalities refused to turn over undocumented immigrants to federal authorities.


TRUMP: We are going to get the bad ones out, the criminals and the drug dealers and gangs and gang members and cartel leaders. The day is over when they can stay in our country and wreak havoc.


KOSINSKI: It all happens on the same day a high-level Mexican delegation is here in Washington, meeting with Trump's top advisers. It's the first official meeting with a foreign government after the White House unveiled its America first policy. And one day after the Mexican foreign minister railed against a border wall and Mexico's potential price tag.


LUIS VIDEGARAY, MEXICAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): We recognize that the United States has the right to build a wall even though we don't like it. But it is another thing to try to get a neighboring country to pay for the construction. We have said many times that that is unacceptable


KOSINSKI: There have been a couple of hints as to how the Trump administration could at least try to get Mexico to pay for the wall. One is in the amount of aid that the U.S. sends Mexico each year. That could be reduced, or the Trump administration could try to prevent Mexicans living in the United States from sending remittances back home to Mexico, and that is a significant amount of money.

Another interesting thing to come out of these executive orders is looking at the new priorities for enforcement, for deportations. Under the Obama administration, it was really focused on people who have been convicted of felonies or gang members or people who have committed a string of crimes.

When you look at the new priorities, it includes people who are charged with crimes or in some cases haven't even been charged with crimes but are just suspected of being a threat. According to the new rules, they are still on the priority list for deportation.

[03:34:59] Michelle Kosinski, CNN, the State Department.

CHURCH: Let's get more on President Trump's crackdown on illegal immigrants. We are joined by senior political writer at La Opinion, Pilar Marrero, and CNN political analyst and Washington Post columnist, Josh Rogin. Great to have you both here.


CHURCH: Josh, let's start with you. President Trump says construction on the border wall will begin within months, but Congress hasn't approved the money. How is this all going to work?

JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Nobody knows how it's going to work, least of all Donald Trump or congressional republicans. I mean there's a huge gap between what the president has said and what's actually happening behind the scenes.

You know, originally Trump said Mexico was going to pay for the wall. Now he says Mexico is going to reimburse us for the wall. This would have to come from congressional appropriations. And while there is some money that you could move around, there's not $20 billion you could move around. It remains to be seen whether or not Congress will go along with that, how they'll pay for it, and what that timeline will be.

CHURCH: So, Pilar Marrero, there's already part of a wall, of course, isn't there and a fence along the border? So how is this new border wall going to stop illegal immigration given the billions of dollars it will take of course to construct this barrier?

MARRERO: I don't know how it's going to stop immigration. There's already 700 miles of some kind of fencing. There's a lot of technology at the border. There's been a deep increase in border patrols over the last 10, 15 years.

It's now the largest -- the immigration agencies are now the largest law enforcement agencies in the nation. To a certain extent, the flow of immigrants through the border have to do with stuff that is beyond our control here to a large extent.

Economics in those countries. Violence situations in Central America, for example. We have a lot of Central Americans coming here to seek refuge. A border wall is not necessarily going to change those situations.

CHURCH: Josh, the president has ordered the government to withhold federal money from so-called sanctuary cities or cities that protect undocumented workers. Is that legal, and what impact will that likely have? ROGIN: I think the legality is yet to be determined. It's something

that these cities will certainly fight, and it is something that actually could rise to the level of the Supreme Court eventually if it gets that far in that court.

As you know, it's in a state of flux, lacking one member, who Trump will appoint next week. Even after he appoints his Supreme Court justice, which could be a very conservative justice, it will still be a very divided court.

So, again, this is a pattern of the brand-new Trump administration just declaring things, writing a bunch of economic -- executive orders without really thinking through the implementation, without worrying about the consequences and without, you know, much less without bringing in various communities of interest to try to work on it together.

It's just a sort of bullying approach that is going to face a lot of pushback, and it's unclear how these executive orders will fare when that pushback is exerted both from Congress, from the courts, from the communities affected, and many others.

CHURCH: And, Pilar, the president is also ordering a dramatic increase in immigration police and increased deportations of undocumented immigrants. It's not going to happen overnight, of course, but if these tougher policies are eventually implemented, how are they going to affect immigrant communities across the United States?

MARRERO: Well, first of all, even before you start implementing some of these, which will require basically to move, to take back some of the executive orders that President Obama issued in his last few years targeting criminal immigrants and sort of, you know, de-emphasizing the deportation of people who are not -- who are not criminals, who are just family who's are working here, et cetera, et cetera.

Many of the families are mixed. I think even before that happens, there's going to be terror. There's going to be terror in communities because these orders are so broad and like my colleague here said, they're not being -- they're not thinking them through. They're just issuing all these orders.

For example, you know, one of the orders has to do with the privacy of information that you give to federal agencies. So, if you go to a federal agency and you're undocumented, to do anything, to do any kind of processing or anything, they're not going to guarantee your privacy, for example.

That could -- you know, that could be problematic. They're going to bring back programs that were failures, such as security communities, and the 287g contracts that basically put pressure on police to act as immigration agency -- agents instead of policing, which is something most police agencies don't want to do.

[03:40:03] So, it's going to be a tug-of-war between the local police, the local agencies, and the federal government, and I think it could lead to a crisis of governability in this country.

CHURCH: All right. And Josh, President Trump repeatedly vowed to build a wall and crack down on illegal immigration during the campaign. Should anybody be surprised that this is happening now, and will the cost of the wall become a big factor?

We're talking about billions of dollars here given the American taxpayer will need to fund this initially, and there's no guarantee that Mexico will ever cover the cost of that wall.

ROGIN: Yes. I think it is -- the cost is going to be an issue, and they're going to have to come up with some plan to pay for it. You know, either way, in my -- in the view of many in Washington, it's a huge waste of money considering all of the conditions and the effects that we've just outlined here.

You know, to answer your first question, should we be surprised? Well, yes and no. I mean, there was a hope, not really an expectation, but a sort of wish that when Trump would assume the mantle of the presidency, that he would adjust his sort of most aggressive rhetoric, his most controversial plans, or at least take a moment to think it through and talk to all of the people that he's appointed for all of these important jobs that are supposed to be advising him.

None of that is happening. Not only has he sort of doubled down on the rhetoric, he's moving forward with the plans in an even more aggressive and sort of haphazard, and controversial fashion than anyone even anticipated.

CHURCH: And, Pilar, how concerned are you about the return of large- scale workplace raids to arrest illegal employees, and do you find any comfort in Mr. Trump having said the good ones can return?

MARRERO: No. First of all, he said he was going to focus deportations on people who are criminals and threat -- and a threat to the communities. If you read through the executive order, the priorities he set are so broad, it could mean anyone, absolutely anyone.

So, anyone who is here with a false document or anyone who came with a visa and overstayed, they're deemed threats to national security. So, the goods can come back -- the good ones can come back. I don't see any procedure for that at all.

And as the laws stand today, if you're deported, you could be banned from this country for 10 or 20 years. So, unless they change those laws, I don't -- I don't see that happening at all.

CHURCH: All right. Pilar Marrero and Josh Rogin, thanks to both of you for joining us for this discussion

ROGIN: Thank you.

MARRERO: Thank you.

CHURCH: Coming up next here on CNN NEWSROOM, China gets ready to celebrate its most important holiday and ring in the year of the rooster.

Coming up, details on the millions of people on the move. Plus, a grim but classic novel shoots to the top of the charts in America. Why "1984" is finding new life in 2017. That's later this hour.


CHURCH: Welcome back, everyone. Well, the largest migration in the world is now underway as the Chinese lunar New Year approaches. Millions of people are traveling to see their families and to celebrate the year of the rooster.

David McKenzie has more now from Beijing.

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Rosemary, we're here at the Beijing Railway Station on the closing hours before the beginning of the lunar New Year. You can see people streaming in behind me, trying to get those last-minute tickets for the train ride.

We've spoken to many different people, people taking 3-hour rides, 10- hour rides, and it's staggering the scale of the migration here in China for the lunar New Year. More than 100 million people on just one day will travel across China to go see their families.

Often it's the only time they see their parents. Sometimes the only time they see their kids. And we're entering the year of the rooster. I want to show you something here.

It's the ang pao, that's a lot of people will take home with them with cash stuffed in it, hidden away in their bags. Probably a tradition to give money to each other. But really this is a time for good food and family, and then in a week or so, people will all come streaming back to the big cities of China to get back to work. Rosemary?

CHURCH: All right. Thank you so much for that.

Well, fans, friends, and co-stars are remembering actress Mary Tyler Moore. She died Wednesday at the age of 80. Moore shot to stardom on the Dick Van Dyke show before starring in the Mary Tyler Moore show for most of the 1970s.

She played a journalist and budding feminist and helped to usher in a new era for women in television. Moore later advocated for juvenile diabetes research and revealed her struggle with alcoholism.


PEDRAM JAVAHERI, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Weather watch for the Americas. I'm meteorologist Pedram Javaheri.

And after what has been a historic start to 2017 when it comes to mild temperatures for much of the United States, it is transitioning back towards a colder trend at least for the next couple of days and of course, we're coming off of a historic 2016 with the warmest temperatures globally observed as well. But notice what's going on across the Great Lakes, some snow showers,

nothing significant but still some of those favorable spots. We'll pick up some light accumulations, we're thinking generally about say 5 to 10 centimeters, which is a far cry from what these areas are capable of seeing and producing with storms that roll across that region.

Atlanta, a mild spot there at 12 degrees. Montreal, best they can do around 1. Some snow showers expected. Notice the several bounce of cold air there we see into early next week here. It looks like they're going to be more northly confined to the southern tier of the United States. You should stay off of that action.

And you notice places like Washington drop off largely. New York from 11 down to 4 degrees across that region while farther to the south, Belize City looking at the upper 20s, looks like the Guatemala City will keep it dry of a score around at 28 degrees.

Same score out of San Juan into parts of Puerto Rico as well. And thunderstorms about from the Lima Mountain towards areas around Caracas, Manaus. Some scattered showers and thunderstorms in the forecast there. We should expect temps to be into the upper 20s in Paranam, Manaus, around 30 degrees, Lima, it makes it up to the upper 20s as well. And Quito, some thunderstorm, around 18.

CHURCH: Welcome back, everyone. George Orwell's classic book "1984" is surging back in popularity in the United States almost seven decades after it was first published. And it appears to be no coincidence that's it's topping Amazon's best-seller list just days into the Donald Trump administration.

Brian Todd reports.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A terrifying future world where society is controlled by a totalitarian government, where facts are censored and truth is rewritten. A story where two plus two equals five.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The standard of living has risen by no less than 20 percent over the last year.


TODD: This is one of the movies based on the book "1984," written 68 years ago by George Orwell, a book that now is enormously popular again. Number one on Amazon's bestseller list. In such demand that the publisher, Penguin, is furiously printing more copies of the book.


ELISABETH ANKER, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: I think people are buying it as a warning, as a sense of trying to understand what happens when a government is actually kind of blatantly dissimulating facts and asking people to believe them is true. They're not backing down when there is evidence to the contrary.


TODD: "1984" follows the path of the character Winston Smith, a regular guy who lives under a government that controls everything, distorts reality and wipes out evidence of what really happened in the past. The so-called ministry of truth tells lies. Its propaganda is called new speak.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you seen the tenth edition of the new speak dictionary?


TODD: Some analysts suggest the increase in "1984" book sales could be a response to the new White House. Trump administration has been targeted by fact checkers for alleging massive voter fraud but offering no proof and battling with the press over the exaggerated claims from the White House of inaugural crowd size.


SPICER: Photographs of the inaugural proceedings were intentionally framed in a way in one particular tweet to minimize the support that had gathered on the national mall.


TODD: Presidential aide Kellyanne Conway went on NBC's Meet the Press and defended the White House Press Secretary.


KELLYANNE CONWAY, DONALD TRUMP SENIOR ADVISER: I mean, Sean Spicer, our Press Secretary, gave alternative facts to that. But the point remains...


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wait a minute. Alternative facts?


TODD: CNN political commentator Carl Bernstein has called Conway the minister of propaganda.


CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Kellyanne Conway and the president of the United States, in their counter-truthful narratives as well as specifics, are following an Orwellian road. And it's dangerous. It is disturbing. And it is intense. But in terms of the exact parallels with "1984", I'd be a little careful.


TODD: University of Virginia Professor Larry Sabato says some of the early moves of the Trump administration may be driving the comparisons, but he also said it's early.


[03:55:02] LARRY SABATO, VIRGINIA UNIVERSITY CENTER FOR POLITICS DIRECTOR: Any conclusions you reach when an administration is only days old can easily be wrong and certainly they're premature.

So, you can criticize the fact that people are already reaching these conclusions. I think reasonably we ought to give it more time.

But the early signs are concerning, and I think that's why a lot of people are reading or reading for the first time "1984." Orwell may have been on to something.


TODD: Analysts point out that one of the central themes of the book "1984," the concept of big brother, that the government's eyes and ears were everywhere surveilling its citizens isn't any more of a concern now during the Trump administration than it was during Barack Obama's term or George W. Bush's.

In fact, the book also saw a spike in sales in 2013 after Edward Snowden leaked information about NSA surveillance.

Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.

CHURCH: Now to something completely different. A pair of American tennis legends will face off in the women's final at the Australian Open. Venus Williams earned her spot with a tough three-set win over fellow American Coco Vandeweghe.

Sunday will be her first Grand Slam final since 2009. Now, Venus will face her sister Serena, the world number two made quick work of Mirjana Lucic-Baroni. The Williams sisters have a combined 29 Grand Slam titles between them. When they meet on Sunday, they will have a combined age of 71, making it the oldest women's Grand Slam final in the open era.

I'm Rosemary Church. Remember to connect with me anytime on Twitter. I love hearing from you. The news continues now after the break with our Max Foster in London. Have yourselves a great day.