Return to Transcripts main page


Remembering Mary Tyler Moore; President Trump's Fixation with Crowd Sizes; Trump Signs Border Wall Order, Mexico Condemns Plan. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired January 26, 2017 - 06:30   ET


[06:30:01] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): But Mary Tyler Moore was one of them. Moore began her ascent to stardom as a dancer in the 1950s. But landed her big break as Laura Petrie on "The Dick Van Dyke Show."

The famous costar taking to Twitter as the news broke, saying, "There are no words. She was the best."


CAMEROTA: Show creator Carl Reiner fondly remembered the moment he discovered her.

CARL REINER, ACTOR & CREATOR, "THE DICK VAN DYKE" SHOW: I grabbed the top of her head, and I said, "Come with me." And I walked her down the hall to Sheldon and I said, "I found her."

CAMEROTA: Her role on "The Dick Van Dyke Show" made her a household name. But it was her own show, portraying a single 30-something woman that made her an icon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've got spunk.



CAMEROTA: On the show, Moore blazed the trail for women on TV, taking on themes like sexuality and equality in the workplace.

MOORE: I would like to know why the last associate producer before me made $50 more a week than I do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, because he was a man.

CAMEROTA: Moore went on to create MTM Enterprises with then husband Grant Tinker, making her a TV executive as well as a star, popping out hit shows like "Rhoda," "The Bob Newhart Show" and "Hill Street Blues."

Comedian Ellen DeGeneres unambiguously declaring Mary Tyler Moore changed the world for all women. So, on behalf of funny and newsy women everywhere, Mary, thank you.


CAMEROTA: I mean, she did change -- she changed how we saw newsrooms. It was -- obviously it wasn't just women who loved "The Mary Tyler Moore Show." That was such a great depiction of what goes on in our business and she was such a great role model.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: And that was the key, right? It wasn't just the show, it gave an audience that might not have been receptive to a lot of the things that were discussed on there politically, gave him such access to it, changed the way people thought.

CAMEROTA: We will talk more about her because coming up on NEW DAY, we will speak to former talk show host Dick Cavett about his memories of Mary Tyler Moore.

CUOMO: Up next, President Trump talking about the size of his inauguration crowd again. Why does it matter so much? Discuss.


[06:36:31] CAMEROTA: President Trump once again suggesting that size matters. We're speaking of his inauguration crowds, of course. Here's what he told ABC about why the numbers matter to him.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Part of my whole victory was that the men and women of this country who have been forgotten will never be forgotten again. I won't allow you or other people like you to demean that crowd, and to demean the people that came to Washington, D.C. from far away places because they like me, but more importantly, like what I'm saying.


CAMEROTA: All right. Joining us now, CNN senior media correspondent and host of "RELIABLE SOURCES," Brian Stelter, and CNN political analyst and "New York Times" deputy culture editor, Patrick Healy.

OK, guys, that wasn't the only time in the interview that he talked about the size of his crowds.

You know, yes, people came from a long way away to see him. But it wasn't the most people that have ever come to Washington, D.C. for an inauguration, but he doesn't draw that distinction. Here it is.


TRUMP: We had a crowd -- I looked over that sea of people, and I said to myself, wow. And I've seen crowds before, big, big crowds. That was some crowd. When I looked at the numbers that happened to come in from all of the various sources, we had the biggest audience in the history of inaugural speeches. Here's a picture of the event. Here's a picture of the crowd. Now,

the audience was the biggest ever, but this crowd was massive. Look how far back it goes. This crowd was massive. And I would actually take that camera and take your time if you want to know the truth.



CUOMO: Take the camera and take -- oh, I get it, he's saying --


CUOMO: All right. Here's the problem. We actually have two different conversations going on. Were there a lot of people there, are there a lot of people who like what the president says? Yes, yes, it's true, we were there, the crowds were big and enthusiastic.

Were they the biggest ever? No. Not by any metric. It wasn't the biggest audience no matter how they want to cobble it together. They got their numbers wrong about who watched where. The idea that CNN got crushed by FOX, the numbers were the same, not including the videos, which would have put us ahead.

The facts, Brian, not the perception that people don't like him. That's in his head. Just the raw facts, is he right about any of them?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: I'm a big nerd about ratings. I started from the premise that he was right and tried to prove that he's right, and it's just not possible to prove this. The fact he's still talking about it today with David Muir, initially Muir brought it up, and that's when he took him down the hall to look at the photos for himself.

At the end of the interview, Trump's still talking about this issue. He's indulging this fantasy. But I'm glad in this interview, we talked about it because he explained why really clearly.

He said, these people who voted for me, some of them are forgotten. They're never going to be forgotten again. He views this as a bigger cultural symbol of disrespect for his voters. It's wrong on the facts, but it's right in a more emotional way.

PATRICK HEALY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It's incredibly emotional for him. At virtually every rally during the campaign, he would say, CNN TV camera, other TV camera, pan around to the crowd. Look how obsessed these crowds are.

He was obsessed with the size of this crowd and this notion that the media was conspiring together, to kind of cover this up, just to say how popular he was.

[06:40:03] You know, he also, every interview that we did, every one that I did by phone with him, in person, probably about 20 interviews over the course of the year and a half of the campaign. The first thing he always brought up unbidden was the poll numbers. Have you seen the poll numbers? Have you seen how well I'm doing? How will I'm doing?

I would go into in-person interviews from Trump Tower, he would have an assistant come and bring out the printed-out poll numbers here, just like David Muir walking down the hallway, showing him, take time to study these numbers. For him, I think growing up in the tabloid culture of New York City, it was very important to have the sense that you were getting on the front page of the "New York Times" or in page 6 and the circulation numbers said you were reaching a certain number of people. That to him is so emotional, that sense that he is popular. He's a popular guy.

CAMEROTA: He is popular. By the way, Brian, you're giving a very generous, I think, spin on it, which is that it's about his people and he wants to make sure his supporters are represented. He also likes being number one, he likes being the most popular.

He -- as you well know, he would always say the "Celebrity Apprentice" was the number one show on TV. It was not. He would make claims long after it was the number one show or in the top 10. He made claims years after that it was number one, which it was not. He likes being on TV.

And here is more, Maggie Haberman, your colleague, our friend, of course, at "The New York Times", has a new article out this morning about him and here's what she has learned about what goes on inside the White House. He rises before 6:00 a.m., watches television. Turns to the cable channel, first in the residence, later in the small dining room in the West Wing. He looks through the morning papers, "The New York Times", "The New York Post", and now "The Washington Post," but his meetings now begin at 9:00 a.m., earlier than they used to which significantly curtails his television time.

Still, Mr. Trump, who does not read books, is able to end his evenings with plenty of television. He likes TV, he likes being on TV.

STELTER: Donald Trump is like most Americans. Most Americans watch at least four hours of TV a day. But this is about his media diet. I'm really glad that Maggie got those details from the president himself.

In the ABC interview, Trump referred to FOX. He said, go look at FOX. FOX is covering this issue correctly. They understand what's going on here. He's actually pitting the news stations against each other, and he'll be on with Hannity later today, so that's going to be a notable element of this. He's going to have a much friendlier interview later today.

CUOMO: One thing, though. There is no such thing as emotionally correct. You are either correct or you are incorrect. On this, he is incorrect, and in truth, he should have been pushed about it in the interview. Because his ability to say it and not get checked on it, I think, feeds his misperceptions of what's right or wrong.

CUOMO: I like to think it's about his people and not about crippling insecurity. Let's be generous.

CAMEROTA: Thank you, Brian, Patrick, very nice. Thank you both for being here.

CUOMO: President Trump's executive order green-lighting a border wall that Mexico says it won't pay for. Will Mr. Trump's tough talk cause the Mexico's president to rethink his planned trip to the U.S.? Let's see.


[06:46:42] CUOMO: It's going to be an all Williams final at the Australian Open. Think about how amazing that is, that Serena and Venus are still facing off after all these years. This will be the ninth time they faced off in a final.

Andy Scholes has more on this bleacher report. And a sport that's getting younger all the time. Two of the oldest, still two of the best.

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Serena is 35, Venus is 36. You know, when the Williams sisters fly back home to Florida, one of them will be the Australian Open champion. This is actually the first time the two squared off in a grand slam final since Wimbledon in 2009.

That was also the last time that Venus made it to a grand slam final. This is going to be the 28th meeting between the two sisters, Serena, she's gotten the better of Venus, winning 16 of those. She'll come out with the most grand slam titles in the open era, and Serena is excited to be facing her sister Venus in Saturday's final.


SERENA WILLIAMS, FACES SISTER VENUS IN AUSSIE FINAL: She is my toughest opponent. No one has ever beaten me as much as Venus has. So, you know, she has a pretty good record against me. We have a good record against each other. So, you know, I just feel like no matter what happens, we won.


SCHOLES: The pro bowl has been tinkering with ways to make the week more interesting for fans for years. They may finally be on to something. As part of the skills competition, which is making its return tonight, they will be making a drone drop. A drone with a football will go up 200 yards in the air, and a receiver is going to be on the ground trying to catch the ball when it drops.

They're also going to have a big dodge ball game between some NFL players. That should also be exciting to watch.

CAMEROTA: I don't like dodge ball. I always get hit in the head, as you can imagine.

CUOMO: That explains it. CAMEROTA: It explains a lot, I think.

Andy, thank you very much.

President Trump's America first pledge is playing out in a series of these executive orders he's signing. How is Mr. Trump being viewed on the world stage?

Richard Haass is here next.


[06:51:51] CUOMO: President Trump and Mexico's president sparring over paying for a border wall ahead of a face-to-face meeting next week which may not happen now. It comes as Mr. Trump hosts the first world leader, the U.K. prime minister at the White House tomorrow.

How is Trump diplomacy being seen around the world?

Here to discuss, Richard Haass. He's the president of the Council on Foreign Relations and author of "A World in Disarray: American Foreign Policy and the Crisis of the World Order." good to have you here.

It's good to have you here.


CUOMO: The president agrees with you. He says the world is in disarray. It is an angry place. Listen to this.


TRUMP: It's not the Muslim ban, but it's countries that have tremendous terror, and it's countries that people will come in and cause us tremendous problems. Our country has enough problems without allowing people to come in who, in many cases or in some cases, are looking to do tremendous destruction. You look at what's happened. I have a whole list. You'll be very thrilled.

DAVID MUIR, ABC NEWS: Are you at all concerned it's going to cause more anger among Muslims around the world?

TRUMP: There's plenty of anger right now. How can you have more?

MUIR: You don't think it will exacerbate the problem?

TRUMP: David, David, I know you're a sophisticated guy. The world is a mess. The world is as angry as it gets. You think this is going to cause a little more anger? The world is an angry place.


CUOMO: What do you think of that?

HAASS: Look, the world is a mess, as he would put it. I call it a world in disarray. The real question is, is what he's saying or doing going to add to or subtract from it?

My concern is a lot of what he's doing is going to add to it, whether it's the protectionism, the killing off of the trade agreements, talking about America first, or most recently, this new position on building a wall with Mexico, his questioning of the NAFTA agreement. Funny enough, he could send Mexico into an economic fall, that would make it less likely the Mexicans would stay at home to work, which would increase immigration pressures against the United States. So his own policies, I actually think, potentially add to the disarray.

CAMEROTA: Right, it's the unintended consequences that you, of course, are steeped in, having studied this through different administrations. But to him, it makes it more orderly to have a wall along the border. We stop illegal immigration.

HAASS: But he's fixing a problem that mostly doesn't exist. For the last few years, more Mexicans have gone back to Mexico than have come into the United States.

CUOMO: Say it again, because nobody knows or believes what you're saying right now.

HAASS: We don't have this great influx of Mexicans. What's happened over the last few years is the Mexican economy has grown faster than the American economy. Mexican families are smaller, so what's happening is more and more young Mexican men in particular are staying home. We do not have a net inflow, we have a net outflow.

What's happening now, if he goes and rips up the NAFTA trade agreement, and then this kind of insulting of the Mexican president, what this could ultimately do is elect a Mexican president who is more of an anti-trade, anti-capitalism, a populism sort of guy. This could create conditions where more and more Mexicans are once again going to feel the need to leave.

[06:55:00] So, again, rather than fixing a problem that mostly doesn't exist, this could create or add to the very problem that he's so worked up about.

CUOMO: Now, what about the idea of the first piece of sound that you heard there about this de facto Muslim ban? Now, the administration wouldn't like the way I characterize it, but I don't know how else to characterize it. If you stop immigration from countries that he sees as terror prone, and he lists Yemen, Iraq, Iran -- doesn't list France, and I don't know how he can't. By what definition aren't they terror prone right now?

What is it except keeping Muslims out of the country?

HAASS: Well, look, we've got to screen people before they come and I understand that. Everybody. But to single out --

CUOMO: And we do, though.

HAASS: And we do. And to single out people from certain countries, obviously, Arab or Muslim countries, it doesn't help. Also, you really got to think, whoever you keep out, what about the message you're sending and does this inspire people who are already here to become alienated? The biggest threat to me --

CAMEROTA: How could it not?

HAASS: Exactly, how could it not?

The biggest threat to me is less stress of people coming over the border to the United States than it is, we've got several million Muslims living in America. I don't want young Muslim men growing up in this country feeling this is not a place that they are 100 percent citizens, 100 percent accepted into our society.

CAMEROTA: You heard President Trump say that he feels in this world of terrorism there should be a level playing field. If, we the U.S., don't go back to using enhanced terror techniques such as waterboarding, et cetera, then we're basically tying our hands.

HAASS: There is entire debate about whether these techniques really help you. Most people who look at them and are wildly skeptical about what you get from them, not surprisingly, people who are being tortured or dealt with very harshly, tend to say things to stop the treatment.

So, there is not a great body of evidence that suggests this is really going to help us in the war against terrorism. Look, terrorism is part of the architecture of this world we live in. It's one of the reasons it is a world of disarray. We're not going to eradicate it.

The real question is, how we push it back? And that means doing things like going after the terrorists in places like Syria and Iraq. It means trying to stop the entire recruitment of terrorists, stopping the funds going to them.

It's something -- it's almost like fighting disease. You don't eradicate it, but you push it back wherever you can. You make yourself less vulnerable to it, you build reliance into your societies. But there's no solutions to this. But we just got to push it in every way.

CUOMO: The president is preoccupied right now with voter fraud, specifically what he thinks made him lose the popular vote. But he's not interested in the voter fraud that the intelligence community is sure of, which is that Russia motivated the hacks that took place during the election.

What do you make of his insistence on sheltering Russia from responsibility?

HAASS: It's one of the mysteries of this administration, why the president coming out of the box has been consistently benign towards Russia, a country that's invaded and conquered parts of Ukraine, the country that committed war crimes in Syria that's wildly liberal at home, why he would be going out of his way to pick a fight with China, a country that's an important economic partner whose help we need in dealing with the North Korean nuclear challenge and missile challenge, that could probably be possibly the biggest national security crisis of Donald Trump's first term, and why he's focusing on the domestic crowd side issue, I just don't get.

He inherits an inbox that is the most difficult, foreign policy national security inbox of any president in living memory. The world that Obama handed off is a much more, I'd say disorderly world, a world much more in disarray than the world Barack Obama inherited.

Donald Trump needs to focus on that. He's got European unraveling. The Middle East is already unraveled. Asia, real problems. That's what we need to focus on, not these imaginary domestic issues.

CAMEROTA: So, the book, of course, is a world in disarray. It is a dire situation. It is a -- I don't want to say a bleak picture, but I mean, you just spell out what a mess the world is in right now. How do you sleep at night?

HAASS: It is -- look, it is bad. But it wasn't inevitable that we got here. Things we did, things we didn't do in the Middle East, in Europe and elsewhere have contributed to it. The upside is things we do or don't do going forward could make it less bad or even better.

There's very little about history that's baked into the cake 100 percent. Very little that's scripted or inevitable. People make a difference. So, for better or worse, Donald Trump, who inherits this world of disarray with what he does or doesn't do is either going to make it better or worse.

CAMEROTA: But what's the prescription? I mean, from where you sit, what would make it better?

HAASS: What would make it better? It would be basically working to calm down the Middle East a little bit. I would not be advocating things like Brexit in Europe. I would be standing up to Russia in Europe. I would be working with China to work with North Korea's problems.

I would be convening the world's leaders at times to talk about how we're going to manage this global world. It's everything from cyber space to disease issues, to trade issues, how are we going to deal with the world that nothing stays local for long? What goes on at any country can go over its borders and can come and hurt everybody else, including us.

We need a new operating system for the world. Those are the kinds of conversations we need to have, but that's going to take serious diplomacy, and again, pushing back against Russia, working with China. And I think we've got to save things like NATO.