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CNN'S AMANPOUR

Trump's Executive Order: A Muslim Ban or Not; Universities Fought Back the Travel Ban; Obama Criticizes Trump's Travel Ban; Attack in Quebec City. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired January 30, 2017 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[00:00:04] RICHARD QUEST, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight's profitable moment was started intact very quickly rapidly expanded elsewhere. The range and

extent of companies that have actually criticized the president's strategy and in many ways cannot say this does not represent American values or

indeed that corporate values. But as you heard on this program. It's a bit of a dangerous policy in some cases because first of all, you've got

those customers, clients who will support the president's policies. And second of all, it's a very risky route to take because when do you speak

out and when do you not?

When is it regarded as enlightened self-interest on when is it regarded as something that's no concern of yours? And that is why I think it is so

significant that you did have General Electric, you had Ford, you had United Airlines, you had the banks. All coming out and speaking as why

swathe of the economy whether it does any good of course. Well, that's the difference between business and politics.

Well, that's (inaudible) business for tonight. I'm Richard Quest in New York. Whatever you're (inaudible), I hope it's profitable. We'll do it

again tomorrow.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, protests spread from the United States overseas over Donald Trump's controversial travel ban. In London,

thousands marched on Downing Street and more than a million people signed a petition against his state visit here.

We get two views on the legal and security implications of Trump's policy with the U.S. Republican Congressman and Iraq war veteran Scott Taylor

elected on the Trump wave and the Former General Counsel of the U.S. Navy Alberto Mora.

Plus, why America's university presidents are formerly opposing this directive? Columbia University's Lee Bollinger on what this means for

attracting the best and the brightest.

Good evening everyone and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

As a massive global backlash is on the way, Donald Trump likes to think of himself as the disruptive. And that is certainly what's erupted from his

Muslim ban. Banning everyone from seven Muslim countries, banning all refugees for four months, and banning Syrian refugees indefinitely.

Protests have erupted at airports nationwide. A note about word choice, the White House doesn't call it a Muslim because that would so clearly

violate the constitution but that is what it is. A fulfillment of this campaign promise.

BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, CYBER SECURITY ADVISER: When he first announced that he said Muslim ban, he called me up, he said put a commission together, show

me the right way to do it legally.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So that was Rudy Giuliani explaining what Donald Trump had asked him to do. Now, let's be clear about a few things. First, no one from the

seven countries banned has ever killed someone in a terrorist act in the United States. Second, heavy vetting already happens. Listen to this.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a program that is tried and tested and has worked the vetting system from the United States is the most rigorous than

for any other country.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And third, Trump has now established a government preference for one religion.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because it relates to persecuted Christians. Do you do see them as kind of a priority here --

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- you do?

TRUMP: Yes. They've been horribly treated.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Fourth, the order was written by Trump insiders without consulting the professionals who would have to carry this directive out.

The right wing White House ideologue Steve Bannon was reportedly responsible for writing most of this executive order. Also over the

weekend, he was installed as a permanent member of the president's National Security Council. While the children of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the

country's most senior officer appears to have been demoted.

President Obama's national security advisor call that change, quote, stone cold crazy after a week of crazy. So tonight, we're going to try to

explore the reasoning, the legality and the effectiveness of this move.

And to do all that, we're joined by the Former General Counsel of the U.S. Navy Alberto Mora, who was one of the first outspoken critics in the

Defense Department of torture under the Bush administration. And we'll also be talking by Trump supporter and former Navy Seal and Iraq veteran,

the Republican Congressman Scott Taylor.

[00:05:02] Gentlemen, welcome to the program. Now, there is obviously a lot to digest. But first I want to turn to you Scott Taylor, newly minted

Republican Congressman. You served in Iraq, you know that Iraq today is an ally in the fight against terror. Just give me your gut reaction of what

the Iraqis who you worked with and who are still working to combat terror must be feeling after this?

REP. SCOTT TAYLOR (R), VIRGINIA: Well, I take issue of the couple of things that you said and respectfully of course I appreciate you having me

on your program. Let me preface it by saying I don't support a Muslim ban on. And when I read this text to me it's not a Muslim ban.

I wholeheartedly don't support that and you mention Iraq interpreters. I know, yes, I know a few of them that lived here now as well too. And not

only that I spend time in Iraq but also went to Syrian borders, I spent years in Yemen, all through in -- a lot of parts of Yemen as well too. So

I'm very familiar with the region itself.

And I just have to say -- I mean, the whole way that you've framed the whole thing, I just take a little bit of issue with it because I think

there are lot of people here who are reasonable and not all (inaudible) and crazy who truly believe that we have, that we have to (inaudible) folks a

little bit more securely before they come over here and that is a post. I understand that even the campaign rhetoric about a Muslim ban even what

Rudy Giuliani said, I get that. I get how you could use that and then say that this is what this is and that is something that I would not support.

You know, my life has been in the hands of Muslims many times. But I don't -- I disagree with you.

AMANPOUR: Sorry, carry on. Tell me about your life being in the hands of Muslims. Go ahead.

TAYLOR: Sure. I spent -- you know, unfortunately, we just had a soldier killed in the Shabwah District of Yemen a couple of days ago. I spent

years in and out of the Shabwah District working with tribes there, negotiating with tribes and not shoot companies or hijacked trucks or --

some of them just want a jobs as well too. So I'm very familiar with the region and my life has been literally in the hands of Muslims there who are

my tribal guards protecting me.

So, you know, I just think there is a lot of motion with this issue, an information leads a reason but a motion leads to action. And a lot of

times, people emotions are sort of over, overpowering their logic.

AMANPOUR: All right. So, we'll just break that on the second but the former Iraqi ambassador to the U.S. calls this a betrayal because American

and Iraqi troops both spilled blood together fighting ISIS. Does that give you pause for a thought. He's banned, he can't come across either. He's

on the banned list.

TAYLOR: He was banned under President Obama for six months. This isn't, isn't a six months ban either. I mean, this is, this is something that --

you have to understand -- I mean, you're in London right now and when -- and with the Syrian refugee crisis for example, where there were 20 and 30

and 40 people let in from Syria over the first years of the Syrian crisis which there are horrible humanitarian (inaudible). Now you've seen what

you're seeing on T.V. over there. I've seen them as well too and I understand that.

But, it wasn't until 2016 to when Obama administration grew it exponentially and I will tell you there are millions of Americans who were

fearful and who wanted to see because they saw what was happening in Ye -- or excuse me, in Europe. So they wanted to see -- want to slow down --

AMANPOUR: OK.

TAYLOR: -- but what happened under the Obama Administration -- let me finish please. What happened under the Obama administration was an

expansion and an expedited program and it was really like a thumb in the eye of many of these people. So quite frankly this is one of the reasons

why we have a President Trump.

AMANPOUR: Right. OK. Let met take all of that to you Alberto Mora. It is -- I mean, I know what Scott Taylor says but we have very carefully

listen to what President Trump has said, we've read the directive, and we listened very carefully to what Rudy Giuliani said to Fox News that he was

asked by the -- hold on a second, I'm talking to Alberto Mora.

TAYLOR: Sure.

AMANPOUR: That he was asked how do you make this Muslim ban legal. How can you do that? And then we heard him say to those CBN, the Christian

Broadcast Network that absolutely there is an exemption for Christians fleeing persecution in this country. So from your perspective as a

military man Alberto Mora, and as a legal counsel to the Navy, is that a Muslim ban or can it be read otherwise?

ALBERTO MORA, FORMER GENERAL COUNSEL OF THE NAVY: I think it comes apparently close to that. And as Representative Taylor indicated, this is

a carry forward on the campaign rhetoric that was expressly anti-Muslim which of course has al kinds of great constitutional problems. The

constitution forbids the establishment of a religion and for -- now President Trump to have made derogatory comments about Muslims during the

election and now indicated a clear preference for Christians in the immigration policy, it seems to suggest that he is -- gone over the

threshold, right on the threshold, right on the fence of engaging in what could be and unconstitutional sort of behavior.

[00:10:02] But, part of the problem with this as well is the half hazard random nation nature of this kind of policy. It appears clear from all the

reporting that the experts on these issues were not consulted prior to the promulgation of policy. So the State Department was not consulted or at

least consulted adequately, Defense Department was not consulted at all. (Inaudible) by Secretary Mattis' words and one doubt how much legal

scrutiny was given to this policy by the Justice Department as well.

So, we have a problem that, that president seems to be unfriendly or unfamiliar with facts. It looks doesn't rely on necessary facts in

establishing a policy. Doesn't turn to the experts for advice, goes out in a random fashion and execute policy that creates chaos inside the country.

Now it's the country which will have also significant foreign policy ramifications as well.

AMANPOUR: OK. Alberto, to Scott Taylor's premise that Americans are afraid and they elected Donald Trump on this issue, they heard what he said

on the campaign trail, and they want extra vetting. How do you, how do you answer that? Because I will also ask Scott. I mean, we're told that

(inaudible) -- I mean, literally more than a dozen U.S. agencies including FBI, Homeland Security, plus the U.N., plus their own, you know, home

countries take also sorts of, you know, interviews, finger printing, biographical information.

To your mind, what more vetting can there be and I ask Scott this as well.

MORA: It's not clear what more vetting is required. That's not been explained by the administration. The administration has not clearly

indicated what kind of vetting is absent that would make the country safer now.

The country of course and our -- the public has a right to safety, has the right to feel safe. And the president has an obligation to ensure the

safety of the country. But it's not clear that these policies meet a specific need that is fact-based or would advance the desire of safety

(inaudible) population.

This is why there's such criticism of the measures and it appears to be so chaotic. I also want to mention that the execution of the policy was also

chaotic. There was very little guides given to any of the government agencies to explain how the policies were to be implemented which means

that hundreds perhaps thousands of people were stranded in airports and on flights in foreign airports while the agencies sort out how to implement

this policy.

It's not business-like behavior that we need to expect from the president.

AMANPOUR: Scott Taylor, on the one issue of implementation and the whole NSC rule out. We did correctly say right wing, White House ideologue which

is what Steve Bannon is. He's bright bud, he's alt right and he were told -- wrote this executive order --

TAYLOR: I don't even know the guy but --

AMANPOUR: You know, it's not what we says it's what he says, what's written, and all of that. He proudly claims --

TAYLOR: He says he's alt right ideologue?

AMANPOUR: Bright bud is.

(Off-Mic)

TAYLOR: I have to say something to you, you know --

AMANPOUR: No, I want to ask you specific question about the rule out and the, you know, and the sort of chaos that we've seen, the defense secretary

not being told, the Homeland Security. What do you as a military man make of that?

TAYLOR: Well, listen, I think that -- first of all, let me finish one thing and I will get -- I will absolutely answer that specifically because

I think there are issues with that. I appreciate Alberto. I really do appreciate his opinion.

But as he said he did not say that it was a Muslim ban which you said was. And I think that it's irresponsible of you to say that because you're also

(inaudible) problems as well too.

(Crosstalk)

AMANPOUR: We're playing word games.

TAYLOR: There's legitimate criticism about the implementation of it. I agree with it a hundred percent as a -- not just a military man but just in

general. I think that I see on one side where they don't wanted us (inaudible) potential folks -- know what's going on but at the same time

with people who are department head, who have to implement the policy, there's legitimate criticism.

AMANPOUR: But do you not think that's irresponsible Representative Taylor to throw out these executive orders and you heard what some tweets have

been saying that this is -- and again, you, you clearly must understand this better than I because you've been out there, actually so have I. But

this will be a gift to recruiters, to terrorists recruiters this kind of -- you use the word and I'm going to ask you, isn't it irresponsible to throw

this out there and blanket ban the a whole group of people rather than target those who by the way as you say have not committed terror in the

United States. They've been home grown terrorists since 9/11.

TAYLOR: The United States has had a long standing policy of fighting places -- not with us, not -- or our homeland, when they keep something

away from our homeland. That is our right and our duty to protect people and you asked me if I think it's irresponsible to say that. I think it's

irresponsible for you to say that because --

AMANPOUR: No. Mr. Taylor, I said, isn't it irresponsible to throw out -- no, the question -- you are deliberately not answering my question. The

question was, you've accused me of being irresponsible, I'm asking you did you not think it's irresponsible to throw out this policy and create the

chaos that we're seeing right now.

[00:15:06] TAYLOR: So, you asked two questions and I'm answering specifically. Number one, I think that there were legitimate criticisms

with the rule out of the policy. Absolutely I agree with Alberto that the subject matter experts should see it. I agree at that hundred percent.

But you also said, is it gift to folks to see --

AMANPOUR: Yes I'm asking the question --

TAYLOR: And I said -- hold on, let me finish. Because I think when you say Muslim ban when it's clearly not, you're giving a gift there.

AMANPOUR: I see, OK.

TAYLOR: -- in the Muslim community.

AMANPOUR: Right. Alberto, very quickly, can -- is there any legal, you know, reprieve. Can this rule back and how?

MORA: Well, I think for (inaudible) as I understand it at the end (inaudible) sanctions prohibited in the implementation of the measure. So,

yes, the orders appeared they're been -- or the policy guidance seems to be have been badly crafted with all kinds of vulnerabilities and legal gaps

which are now being exploited in court. So, I think we'll see more of that in the near future. And I think elements to the order will be reversed or

changed.

AMANPOUR: All right. Alberto Mora, Scott Taylor, thank you very much indeed for joining me tonight.

TAYLOR: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: So, after Donald Trump's stunning win in November, despite all the things that he said on the campaign trail as we've said, his supporters

sneered that the press got it wrong by taking Trump literally but not seriously while his supporters got it right by taking him seriously but not

literally.

This latest uproar following closely on the hills of the Mexico wall to buckle shows conclusively that Donald Trump should have been taken

literally and seriously. In today's Twitter edition, Donald Trump reminded everyone that yes, the ban was a big part of his campaign. When we come

back, America's universities are talking back because the ban shuts out some of the best and brightest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. The Trump ban on Muslim countries is having (inaudible) on all parts of American society including its places

of learning. The Association of American Universities is coming out forcefully against the ban saying that it is damaging America's leadership

in higher education.

Roughly 17,000 international students studying in the United States could be impacted. And Iranian -- an Iranian PhD student traveling through the

UAE reacted this way.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It makes me feel that I cannot consider U.S. home anymore.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Lee Bollinger is president of Columbia University and he joins me now from New York. Mr. Bollinger, welcome to the program. We are glad

to have you because you have signed this letter from the association of universities. Tell me, tell me how it struck you when you first heard this

executive order?

[00:20:03] LEE BOLLINGER, PRESIDENT, UNIVERSITY OF COLUMBIA: Well -- I mean, I think the -- there are several levels of this. I mean, I think

political and religious test for entry into the United States especially for students and scholars is deeply, deeply troubling. We have a long

history in the country of great intolerance arising periodically towards aliens as they're called they're the aliens in sedition acts and then

spreading over the free speech generally. So there's a real concern about that.

I think secondly, there is a very strong sense of anger and people very upset about the pain that this causes students who are presently with us,

faculty members and also the potential students and faculty members that we would have.

I think the third thing is, it really strikes that the core principle of universities as well as the country in being open to a variety of

viewpoints. So you point out 17,000 plus students come every year from these countries. They come with different perspectives, we really seek to

have a global presence and a global points of view. And when those are cut off there's a real sense that the core mission of the universities is

affected. It would be as if we said we want to have people from the United States, all parts of the United States but these five or seven states, we

can't take them from.

AMANPOUR: And what --

BOLLINGER: So, let set every level that people are upset.

AMANPOUR: Give me an idea of the disruption is causing on your campus. I mean, any of the sorts of human stories you can share and how are you

dealing with it?

BOLLINGER: Well, I mean, there are a number of incidents and that this happens on every campus. There is a student who can't travel home, faculty

members who can't travel home, family members from there of our students and faculty who cannot come and visit them here or unite with them. There

are of people invited to conferences and meetings who cannot attend.

So, in every respect, this is a serious incursion into the academic activities and mission. That's why you have all of these universities.

This is something that really -- all across the United States' universities are very, very upset about this.

AMANPOUR: Now, as you can see from the administration and their supporters, they are categorically saying this is not a Muslim ban. As an

academic who works in words and the facts and, you know, is this a Muslim ban as far as you think, I mean, in word or deed? The president has said

it, the -- Rudy Giuliani is explained how he'd helped him quote unquote, make it legal. And the president just openly told a Christian broadcast

interview that he's making an exception for Christians persecuted in those countries.

BOLLINGER: Right.

AMANPOUR: How would you describe this phenomenon?

BOLLINGER: Right. So, I mean, this is a classic kind of issue. How do you interpret the purposes, the intentions of a given policy or a law or

anything? And I think the context here of the campaign statements made then, other statements made more recently, the exception that you noted of

the things convey the sense that this is really a ban because of religious beliefs. And it's both underinclusive and overinclusive and, you know,

both of those suggest rationality that lead to want to let it be.

So, the sense I think across the academic world is, this really has a subtext of message that is deeply harmful. That tends to reinforce

stereotypes, tends to make people feel vulnerable. And also has these practical effects of people not being able to come and be students and

faculty.

We have a long tradition in the United States of having people, very talented people from other countries come as very young people --

AMANPOUR: Right.

BOLLINGER: -- and as scholars. And that has been an enormous benefit to the world and to the United States.

AMANPOUR: But very brief --

BOLLINGER: It's even more important today.

AMANPOUR: Very briefly because we're just running out of time, do you believe -- have you talked to the administration, do you believe there is a

sort of light at the end of this tunnel? Will it really just be for the -- I think three months or so that they've said?

BOLLINGER: Well I have had no idea. But I think, I think the sense of concern and even outrage at this across the academic world is at least one

sector that will be working to try to limit this.

AMANPOUR: Lee Bollinger, president of Columbia University, thanks for joining us tonight.

BOLLINGER: Thanks very much for having me.

AMANPOUR: And when we come back, imagine going back in history. We remember the awful price paid when the U.S. black refugees fleeing Germany

and other parts of Europe in 1939.

[00:25:02] But first, to north of the U.S. border, Canada's Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau tweeted his position on refugees over the weekend saying

that they will welcome hours before terror attack on a mosque in Quebec City. Six worshipers were killed and five remain in hospital. Because of

an ongoing investigation local police have not released the identities or the motives of the attackers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, Donald Trump's outright ban on Syrian refugees is also causing a storm of protest for violating international

law. Now, imagine a world that seen this horror before. The Jewish rights organization, the Anti-Defamation League reminds the administration quote,

"Our community knows what happens when the doors to freedom are shut." And that's why the ADL relentlessly will fight this policy in the weeks and

months to come.

So, imagine this Muslim ban being signed on Holocaust Memorial day when Donald Trump was already in hot water because incredibly, Jews were not

specifically mentioned in the White House statement marking the day, just innocent people. Now, rewind the clock to 1939 when Jews were trying to

flee the Nazis. Nine hundred of them was sailing to safety aboard the MS St. Louis but they were turned away from America. A lucky few were

accepted by other countries who granted them refuge but many was sent back to their deaths. At least 250 were killed in the Holocaust.

Now, so that we might not forget, a software developer and a rabbi have joined forces. They've created a Twitter account called the St. Louis

manifest. Its collected photos of the doomed refugees and the stories of what happened to them after they were rejected by the United States.

And we're going to leave you tonight with their tragic testimonials in this shameful roll call as we thank you for watching. Remember to always follow

us online on Facebook and Twitter.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END