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CNN'S AMANPOUR

Thousands Mourn At Vigils For Victims; Libyan Militia: Manchester Bomber's Brother Arrested In Tripoli; Pope Francis, President Trump Seek Common Ground. Aired 2-3p. E.T.

Aired May 24, 2017 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:00] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN AMANPOUR HOST: Tonight, our special one-hour edition live from Manchester, as thousands continue to bring

flowers here to remember the lives that were lost in the terror attack that killed 22 people, including children. And as we come on air; new details

about the investigations as the brother of the Manchester bomber is arrested in Libya. Coming up this hour: an update on those still fighting

for their lives in hospital. The latest on the terror threat here in the U.K. as troops are now deployed onto the street. The NATO Secretary

General speaks to me as President Trump arrives in Brussels for talks, also Jens Stoltenberg's personal reflections on this tragedy; he's been here

before. And the simple joy of concert - what they mean to young girls eager to express themselves.

Good evening, everyone and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in Manchester. And we're standing here on what's become now the focal

point of where people are coming from all over this city to remember the dead, and to pray for them, and to demonstrate solidarity. If I step

aside, you can see a sea of flowers, and messages, and tributes. You can see up there - it says, love to all; hatred for none. That's from one of

the Muslim groups here. You can see a #WeStandTogether. There are teddy bears, there are balloons, there are candles, and there are chalked

meanings and messages on the pavement beside me here.

So, now, it appears to be that an attack has targeted, as we know, the young and among the dead: daughters, and sons; sisters, and mothers,

fathers, and friends. The youngest: Saffie Rose Roussos. She was just eight years old, as we told you last night. And now, we know that Olivia

Campbell, who was 15, and whose parents were looking for her and who spoke to us - she has also been found dead. We also know that parents: Marcin

and Angelika Klis from Poland, they died waiting in the concert hall to collect their daughter. Another victim, an off-duty female police officer.

And Martyn Hett, a 29-year-old, Manchester resident. And Nell Jones, a teenager from nearby Cheshire.

A total, as we said, of 22 people were killed - Monday night. 64 were wounded, dozens are still being treated in hospital, at least 12 are under

age 16 - some are suffering critical injury. Let's go now to one of the Manchester hospitals where our Muhammed Lila is standing by. Muhammad,

what is the latest on those, especially, the critically wounded there.

MUHAMMAD LILA, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Christiane, the latest number is that 64 people are wounded and of them, 20 are believed to

be in critical condition in some form or another, still possibly fighting for their lives in hospital. Today was the day where we had new

revelations of the very human toll that this tragedy has taken on this city. You mentioned some of the people have been identified - let me just

point out, you mentioned the name of a teenager: Nell Jones. Well, her story is particularly tragic. The night of the concert, as soon as her

parents found out what happened outside the concert, they frantically tried to reach her. When she was unreachable, they drove here - they live in

Cheshire which is about an hour away - they drove here into Manchester frantically trying to find their daughter, putting up appeals on social

media: asking people to re-tweet.

Unfortunately, today, they got the news that - every parent dreads they were able to find their daughter, but it was because police told her that

she was among the 22 people who lost their lives. And you know, an on- going scene, and a lot of these casualty reports, and a lot of the information coming out as the names are confirmed and identified is school.

Some were students at school; some taught at a school, they all leave behind school communities today in Manchester. And across the United

Kingdom, that is grieving at the senseless loss of so many lives. Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Muhammad, thank you. It's so important to focus on those victims and people who have targeted here. But now, we're going to tell

you more about the bomber. The 22-year-old was a British-born national of Libyan descent, and he was a student - as we told you last night - of

Salford University in Manchester area. According to Britain's Top Security Minister - the Home Secretary, Amber Rudd, he was on the Intelligence

Services radar and he had recently returned to the U.K. from Libya. CNN is now learning that a brother of the bomber has been arrested in Libya on

suspicion of links to ISIS. A Libyan militia, which is working for the government there, says the brother was planning an attack in Tripoli.

Meanwhile, here in Manchester and nearby Wigan - police made four new arrests today after detaining a 23-year-old man on Tuesday. Down in

London, the government has raised the U.K.'s threat level to critical for the first time in a decade, meaning another attack might be imminent. It

is also making more than three and a half thousand military personnel available across Britain, and it has up the number of police on the

streets. Now, the increased security comes as we are learning that it is, of course, a network according to police and not just a single bomber,

that's likely carried out Monday's attack.

And I want to get right now to my next guest for more analysis, Peter Neumann, Director of the International Center for the Study of

Radicalization and Political Violence. He joins me now live from Vienna. Peter, welcome to the program. And now, you know, nearly 48 hours after

this attack - as we're learning more and more about the bomber, about his brothers; hearing that the brother has been arrested in Tripoli, Libya.

Does that surprise you in terms of what you know to be the situation in Libya right now?

[14:05:55] PETER NEUMANN, INTERNATIONAL CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF RADICALIZATION AND POLITICAL VIOLENCE DIRECTOR: No. Libya is a stronghold

of ISIS activity. Of course, the so-called "caliphate" is based in Syria and Iraq, and that's where most of the so-called foreign fighters go if

they want to go abroad. But we've known for some time that a number of people, perhaps, a tenth of the people that have gone to Syria and Iraq

have instead gone to North Africa, and the country that most of them have gone to is Libya; a country that has essentially been in chaos, and where

ISIS has been able to carve out some existence and very limited territory for itself.

AMANPOUR: And Peter, we're also hearing from around this area, and we know historically that those - historically, who fled the dictatorship of

Muammar Gaddafi is Libya, they did - many of them come here to Manchester. There's quite a strong Libyan community here. What do you know about that

community? And what may have been the vulnerabilities of that community?

NEUMANN: So, quite a few people that fled from Gaddafi - went to Britain and came to an asylum. As result of that, you do have a Libyan community

in U.K. and you do also have a significant Islamist or Jihadist element amongst that community. That wasn't considered to be a huge problem in the

past, but of course, since the fall of Gaddafi, some of them have gone back; some of them have radicalized either in Britain or in Libya itself.

And there has been some traffic between Libya and Britain that the security services didn't know too much about because so much of the focus has been

on Syria and in Iraq. And that may, in fact, be the explanation, that something has just simply slip through the cracks.

AMANPOUR: As we're talking, we have on air, a picture of the brother who has been arrested. I just want to pursue, you know, with you Peter,

because according to some French officials it may be the case of the bomber, the Manchester bomber, also traveled to Syria. I mean, how - from

you knowledge of what's happening in Syria, particularly, it has been squeezed by the international coalition. How much traffic is there now

from outside Jihadists to Syria?

NEUMANN: So - essentially, since the end of 2015, only very few people have continued traveling to Syria. Most of the people who went to the so-

called caliphate, went in 2012, 2013, and especially 2014. Since the end of 2015, it's really been a very small truculent. We know, of course, that

last year, the so-called Caliphate and its spokesperson said, "Don't come here anymore, stay where you are, stay in the west and commit terror

attacks there." What may have happened in this particular case is that person went to Libya, and having been radicalized was given the tasks of

going to Syria to make final preparations and training. That's different from migrating into the caliphate. But all of this, at this point, is

totally unclear. And I think we will learn a lot more about the exact traffic in next 24 to 48 hours.

AMANPOUR: And let me ask you, just for your gut reaction. I know you don't know specifics of this family, but the militia who allegedly has

arrested the brother has told CNN that the brother has admitted under "interrogation" by them that he and the Manchester bomber, these two

brothers do belong to ISIS. How much credibility do you put in that? And particularly, that there was so-called interrogation by these militias, how

much can we believe that?

NEUMANN: I would be quite skeptical at this point, what I do believe a lot more in family enough is the claim or the two claims that came from ISIS

themselves. He know that ISIS makes a lot of claims, and not all people are necessarily formally affiliated with the group but it usually has

grounds to make claims; it doesn't make claim everything. So, I do think that the fact that they were throbbed to the attacker as a soldier of the

caliphate is based on some kind of evidence. And I think that is a lot more credible than the - that he say coming from a dubious militia in

Libya.

[14:10:35] AMANPOUR: And I want to ask you also because in that statement, yesterday, ISIS also kind of described the way the explosive were placed.

They talked about an explosive, a bomb, placed in what they called "a shameful area." Obviously, they described the concert as that, in their

depraved fashion. Did that strike you as a detail that we hadn't yet been told by intelligence services? In other words, the nature of the device

itself; how do you think that kind of sophisticated device was built?

NEUMANN: Yes, and that's a very powerful indicator. First of all, a reveal is what the security services caught inside their knowledge. It is

something that was not known, and it indicates that probably someone within ISIS had prior knowledge of this. We also know by now that the explosive

device was a very powerful and sophisticated device. If these attacks are being carried out by a so-called "homegrown terrorist" with no link to a

particular group, the device is typically very simple. This was a sophisticated device that usually indicates that the people putting it

together had some kind of training. Again, that point towards some involvement by a foreign terrorist group, in this case: ISIS.

AMANPOUR: Peter Neumann, thank you so much for all that expertise. And as we've been saying all day, the Manchester police here have confirmed that

it is a network they are investigating, and searching, and trying to figure out all the pieces. Now, for the first time, we have heard from the

emergency doctors who treated the injured right after the attack. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any injury is a devastating, (INAUDIBLE) potentially for all the staff. By the time we get to work in centers like ours,

actually, if you have a better resilience in there - but I can tell you that I went home not feeling great on Tuesday morning. It was terrible.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was the volume that was extraordinary. And certainly, the separation from family of being admitted to the office was

really, really hard. I think for everyone on every level --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: The extraordinary work of the medical professionals working around the clock. And when we return, the sadness sweeping across

Manchester's Muslim community; I talked of this city's prominent Muslim voices about the healing, and about what the community might need to do in

the future.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back! And as we can see, people continue to lay flowers, and balloons, and messages for the dead and for wounded and for

the families. I want to go now to our Senior International Correspondent, Atika Shubert, she's standing by with more details on the investigation.

Atika.

[14:15:05] ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Christiane. Well, we've seen a number of searches - this one just

happened today with armed masked police going in about 20 of them and searching a particular apartment. Now, we don't know exactly what they

were looking for but we do know, however, from the chief constable now is that they're not -- they don't believe that this attack was the work of one

man but of a network.

Now, we've also had some other news coming in just now which is that the younger brother of the main suspect, Salman Abedi, has been arrested in

Libya. Now, we don't know more details about that but that has been confirmed to CNN by a Libyan official there. So, we're still trying to

collect all these details and figure out just how this networks somehow fits together and of course, most important, what kind of an explosives

device was used by Abedi and what that would tell us about the network behind it.

AMANPOUR: Just very briefly, Atika. Are they telling us the people they have arrested here in the Manchester area?

SHUBERT: Well, they -- we know that four people in total have been arrested here. We know of course that one of them was actually the brother

of Salman Abedi and of course, now we know his younger brother was also arrested in Tripoli. So, it does seem they're focusing on the family for

now that are also branching out on who else may have known there in the area.

AMANPOUR: All right, Atika, thank you. And I'm going to ask my next guest about this. Members of Manchester's Muslim community were among the first

to condemn Monday night's attack. And that community makes up about 15 percent of the city's population. A spokesman from one local Mosque there,

atrocities like these have no place in Islam.

So with more on that, we're joined by Mohammed Shafiq. He's with the Ramadan Foundation. So, good evening. Thank you for being with us.

Earlier, you had a vigil here. You had an interfaith gathering. There were other members of the Muslim community and other different faiths here.

What were you trying to say? What are you finding from all of these?

MOHAMMED SHAFIQ, RAMADAN FOUNDATION CHIEF EXECUTIVE: Finding there's a message here that talks about making our communities stronger. We won't

allow the terrorists to divide us. ISIS are an evil ideology. They brainwash people, they use some of the most varied -- you know this,

varied crimes imaginable. And that crime has come into our home city. And so, what we're going to do, as a community, is come together, hold hands.

And you know, you saw it on Monday night. The taxi drivers, they were picking up people for free. One of them dropped them off in nearly 60

kilometers away from Manchester for free. The people giving free food, the hotels, the bus, you know, everyone coming together.

You know, if there's an ideal way to deal with it aside from terrorism in the aftermath of the taste of atrocity, Manchester showed the world not to

do it.

AMANPOUR: Let me talk to you about this family in this community. There is Libyan-British community here. They fled after the dictatorship of

Muammar Gaddafi against him. You know, we have read all sort of things, we're listening to all sort of things about the bomber himself. He

belonged to a mosque here. Apparently, he was among people who were very angry one day when one of the mosque's Imams condemned ISIS, condemned

terrorism. What do you know about that?

SHAFIQ: So, the Imam was delivering a Friday sermon about how evil ISIS is and how we could confront them and defeat them. And this particular Abedi

was angry about that and he was frustrated. My source is telling me that the community activist reported him to the police two years before he

actually carried out these terrorist atrocities.

AMANPOUR: Reported him to the police?

SHAFIQ: The counter-terrorism police is a reliable source. He's spoken to me this afternoon and he's told me quite clearly, I spoke to them two years

ago, to tell them that this person was involved in extremism. Not exactly terrorism but the mindset of being involved in terrorism and sadly, nothing

happened.

AMANPOUR: And yet, we understand that he was "somewhat known to the authorities." We'll dig down deeper into that, of course. But let me ask

you, is your community doing enough? Can your community do more?

SHAFIQ: You know, the very fact that people are killing people under the name of my great faith, it requires us to speak out more. The fact that

whenever we talk about foreign policy that you know, we get shouted down, don't talk about that because you're in the politics. We got to give young

people --

AMANPOUR: You mean by the young Muslims?

SHAFIQ: No. But by society, politicians, the media. Don't talk about that because you're in the politics. Let's have an honest, open debate.

When we're involved in military ventures that are not successful in Iraq and Libya and in Afghanistan, we -- you know, involved in the situation

there that has consequences. So, let's talk about this issue. Let's give young people a voice and above all, let's hold hands and say the terrorists

didn't won the battles. Because the terrorists want to divide communities and what you saw from Manchester over these past few hours has been one of

unity on the many part from this city.

[14:20:05] AMANPOUR: Mohammed Shafiq from the Ramadan Foundation, thanks for joining us tonight. Thank you. And the Manchester bombing hit during

U.S. President Donald Trump's first overseas trip which he hopes would broadcast the message of unity to Christians, Muslims, and Jews around the

world. Today, he stopped at the Vatican to talk peace with Pope Francis. And I'll talk with America's former Ambassador to the Holy See, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to our special program. Saint Francis said, "Blessed are the peacemakers." During the presidential campaign, Pope

Francis called Donald Trump's position on immigration nit Christian and Trump responded by calling the Pope's remark disgraceful. But today

President Donald Trump met Pope Francis as the Vatican for a sure private audience and both men were all smiles by the end of the encounter. Here's

how the President described the visit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA PRESIDENT: We had a fantastic meeting, we had fantastic good, it was an honor to be with the Pope.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: I hear nothing. The Pope and the President didn't shy away from controversial topics including climate change, as Secretary of State Rex

Tillerson told reporters on his flight to Belgium.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REX TILLERSON, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE: They were encouraging to continue participation in the Parish reform. But we had a good exchange

on, you know, the difficulty of balancing addressing climate change responses to climate change. And ensuring that she still a thriving

economy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: The Parish accords to sure to be a major agenda item of the President meetings with NATO and the G.7. later this week. Now Jim

Nicholson knows exactly what it's like to be the intermediary between Washington and the Vatican. He was the American Ambassador to the Holy See

under President George W. Bush and he joins me now from Denver. Welcome to the Program, I wanted to ask you all - I think that I can't actually here

you -- communications have gone down for a moment. Can you hear me, Mr. Nicholson? Can you hear me?

JIM NICHOLSON, UNITED STATES FORMER AMBASSADOR TO THE HOLY SEE: I think yes. I can make you out.

AMANPOUR: They say it's a miracle modern telecommunication. So let me ask you what did you expect, how did you expect this visit to turn out after

the disagreement, the very public disagreement on policy and personality between the Pope and the President.

NICHOLSON: It was a very important visit, at a very important timely time for these two world leaders to come together, you know, right after this

horrific event in the -- in England that you've been just covering because, you know, these things need moral clarity and President Trump speaks with

moral clarity and the Pope's speaks with great moral authority. And there's great potential in a deepening relationship between these two men.

So to have this - this first encounter person to person was very important and I from all indications it looked like it went very well and I suspected

it would because they - they have far more in common that they have difference and the thing that they really have in common is trying to big -

bring peace and safety and security to the people of this world.

[14:26:09] AMANPOUR: Mr. Nicholson, you are a former Republican Chairman of the RNC and you were President Bush's appointee to the Holy See, you

know, we understand that the Pope gave the President a copy of his 2015 Encyclical on the climate and the President we're told by Rex Tillerson the

State, the Secretary of State talked about it but keep reading out the idea of how to manage climate while not harming the economy. But today modern

economist say actually, you know, clean energy alternative energy is an economic benefit and an economic powerhouse. How can this President in

this administration be convinced that actually it won't harm the economy by sticking to environmental protection.

NICHOLSON: Well as Secretary Tillerson just said there's a balance that needs to be struck but I've actually had a lot of discourse with the

Vatican and the Pope staff in this subject, you know, there are over a billion people in the world today who still do not have electricity. And

alternative sources of electricity are not going to reach those people in anytime soon and the best way out of poverty and disease is to be able to

refrigerate medicine to be able to read at night. And to be able to pump water and so it's very important that there begin this first step of being

able to generate electricity by the cheapest means that exist which is by coal. So you have to balance the need of those billion people that the

Pope really cares the most about. He generally does that's the people the poor of the starving and the descend franchise in the underdeveloped world.

And we care about them a great hill too. United States were committed to enhancing the human conditions of people, we're not a expansionistic

country. We're a country that's trying to bring peace to world and bring a better life to the people. So therein lies the balance and I think this

meeting was the beginning of some very important dialogue and an important relationship between these two great world leaders.

AMANPOUR: And finally obviously you can't escape and the world can't escape from the fact that the President faces a bit of political crisis

back home. This trip was probably a welcome relief, a welcome diversion, and a welcome encounter with so many of the world leaders. What do you

think the atmosphere will be when President Trump returns and from you, knowledge do you think Republicans remain unified behind him?

NICHOLSON: Well our country is very divided but the Republican Party is really quite unified behind President Trump because, you know, he speaks

plainly and he speaks with moral clarity. And when we have things like this hideous terrorist incident, it calls these people "loser", and that's

exactly what they are and you know, the press will still be on were a divided country but I think what he's been able to do on this trip,

visiting the leaders of three of the great, you know, manutioustic religion of the world. Is to show his foreign policy chops and to show how

much he cares and appreciates the relevance of the United States certainly is a great temporal super power. But the importance of these religions in

the world because I believe President Trump knows the solution of this is not just a material or a military solution there's a moral component into

bring that moral voice together with the military voice because innocent people still need to be protected. I think he's accomplished a great deal

with this trip and I think people are going to really see that and appreciate it.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: He certainly got a lot of good press out of this and we'll be following his foreign policy, no doubt, throughout the

years ahead.

Jim Nicholson, thank you so much indeed for joining us.

Now in just a moment we'll take another look, a different look at the Manchester terror attack. The young girls apparently targeted at the

Ariana Grande concert and the impact it's having on them and the music industry.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

Welcome back to the program, live from Manchester, as people continue to gather here at this memorial behind me. More information at the same time

is being released about the Manchester brothers bomber -- the bomber's brother, rather, who's been arrested in Libya. The militia that detained

him says that he was planning a terrorist attack in the capital, Tripoli and that he had been under surveillance for about a month and a half.

The militia also said that he admitted, under interrogation by them, that both he and his brother were members of ISIS and that he was in Manchester

in April and he was aware of the plot.

The British police say the Manchester bomber had recently been to Libya and returned to the U.K. before the attack.

Now the attack has also shaken the music world with some artists like Blondie and Take That postponing concerts out of respect for the victims

and their families And so many others offering messages, solidarity, including the singer, Kylie Minogue, who has played at the Manchester Arena

many times.

And she tweeted, "Absolutely heartbroken for Manchester. Devastating news. My love, thoughts and prayers go out to all."

The British singer, Rita Ora, also voiced her support and said the attack "feels like an open wound."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RITA ORA, SINGER: It's a very sensitive subject for me because, as a musician and as an entertainer, it's -- all you ever want to do is feel

comfortable to perform for our fans and for the well-deserved people that buy the tickets. And the fact that it may be a bit scary to enjoy yourself

is petrifying. So I don't know; it's still very -- a very open wound for me right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Teens, tweens and children are among Ariana Grande's biggest fans and many of them will remember the 23-year-old singer from her time on

the children's TV channel, Nickelodeon.

So she now has returned home to Florida and she has also postponed the rest of her tour.

My next guest has just written about what Monday's attack means --

[14:35:00]

AMANPOUR: -- to young people, to all those who were in the arena and all those who know about what's happened. Anna Leszkiewicz joins me now from

London. She is a pop culture writer for the "New Statesman."

Anna, your article you have written about Arianna Grande, about her Arianators, or however you say, and talk about them and the deep impact in

fact, the real relevance they have to these young, young children. Tell us a little bit about them.

ANNA LESZKIEWICZ, "NEW STATESMAN": Yes, so Ariana's fan base does skew extremely young, as you say. She's a former child star. That means a lot

of her fans, yes, people who've seen her on Nickelodeon. So the typical Ariana Grande concert is a lot of young women, teenage girls and also young

LGBTQ people.

And I imagine that that is relevant. I'm not an expert on terrorism but, to me, that feels quite specific. He targeted a group of very young

people, expressing sexuality, maybe for the first time in a safe space.

AMANPOUR: So tell me more about that. I'm so interested about the girls because she was very much into girls and female empowerment. I think she

called the tour "Dangerous Women," the Dangerous Women Tour.

And just give us a description of what kind of a safe space these arenas usually are for especially young girls.

LESZKIEWICZ: Well, I spoke with a lot of Ariana Grande fans in the last couple of days and it does seem like that is exactly how people saw these

arena concerts. Many young children were going with their parents or young women and it's a space where you can dress up in exciting outfits and

put glitter on your face and see this very beautiful woman and kind of align yourself with her and express yourself, definitely.

AMANPOUR: And she was particularly the kind of star, the kind of singer who gave them all sorts of permission to express themselves. She had a

particular relationship with her fans.

LESZKIEWICZ: Yes, she was very, very acceptable and she shares a lot about her live and she's very communicative with her fans. She is always telling

them how much she loves them and I think people really appreciated that within her fandom.

And she has also been very outspoken about how she feels that her young women fans should have to feel empowered and express their sexuality. And

she's really spoken up for LGBT rights as well. So I think she made her fan base feel very loved and accepted, definitely.

AMANPOUR: And as you call it, the Ariana Grande family, you must have been following all the Twitter conversation, all that's been on social media

since this attack.

What are people saying in the aftermath?

How did they explain it to themselves, particularly the youngest?

This is just so awful that it happened to children, to girls, to parents, to boys, to people who just out there to enjoy themselves.

LESZKIEWICZ: I think people are still struggling to comprehend that something like this could happen in a space that they have so associated

with safety and it is really hitting the community hard, definitely. And I think any fan of any artist would -- can feel that completely.

AMANPOUR: It is really a hard time but it's so important to remember the gift that she gave to so many of those young people and the permission she

gave to young girls, young women, to be themselves. Anna Leszkiewicz, thank you so much indeed.

And coming up, my conversation with the NATO secretary-general Jens Stoltenberg. He was Norway's prime minister when that country was hit by a

horrible mass shooting.

Today, he reflects on that terror attack and the one here in Manchester. And of course, he talked to me about the NATO summit ahead with the U.S.

president, who once called NATO "obsolete."

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:40:00]

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program, live from Manchester, where we are at the memorial to the victims.

The U.S. president Donald Trump has landed in Brussels ahead of a NATO summit leader (ph) tomorrow. It will be the president's first formal

meeting with members of the alliance, which he once described as "obsolete." That was during his election campaign.

Now earlier, I asked the NATO secretary-general Jens Stoltenberg whether the alliance and Washington are on same page and it's fully expected that

President Trump will reiterate his full support for the alliance.

I also asked him what Monday's attack here in Manchester means for NATO's fight against terrorism.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Secretary-General, thank you for joining me and I am here in Manchester by a makeshift memorial, where people are still, of course,

morning the victims of Monday night's terrible attack.

So I want to ask you, given the upcoming NATO meeting, will this attack here, the terrorist attack here, overshadow the meeting?

Do you expect Donald Trump to raise his calls again for NATO to become more involved in fighting terrorism?

JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: The terrorist attacks we saw in Manchester will just make it even more important that NATO sends a clear

message of unity and oversold (ph) in our fight against terrorism. And we planned to do that actually before the attacks but that becomes even more

important now.

AMANPOUR: So give me an idea of how NATO would do that. Obviously, you are engaged in many of the fights against extremists in parts of the world.

But what does it mean for NATO to step up the fight against terrorism here in Europe?

STOLTENBERG: We need many different tools in the fight against terrorism and many of them are not military tools, like police and law enforcement,

intelligence, political, military -- political and diplomatic means. And I expect the NATO leaders to support the sustainment or presence in

Afghanistan and to train and assist Afghans so they can fight terrorist groups in Afghanistan themselves.

I expect also the leaders to agree to step up NATO support for the global coalition fighting ISIL with more AWACS planes. We provide support to the

coalition, including air picture (ph) with our AWACS planes.

And then also to look into what more we can do when it comes to training of Iraqi forces, enabling them to fight ISIL and to stabilize their own

country.

AMANPOUR: I want to ask you specifically about Libya, because as you and others have said, ISIS is falling back to Libya and it is being reported

and confirmed that the attacker here actually went to Libya.

What can you tell us about what happens there to people who may be radicalized, may be joining ISIS?

What is the state of play with ISIS there?

STOLTENBERG: So we have seen that ISIS are trying to get a foothold or at least establish activities and presence in Libya. They have been very

successful but we have seen some presence of ISIL in Libya.

For me, that just underscores the importance of supporting the U.N.- recognized government in Libya, the government of national accord let by

Prime Minister al-Sarraj.

I spoke recently to Prime Minister al-Sarraj and he asked for NATO's support, not in any combat operations but to help them to build security

institutions.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you, moving on now, from terrorism to Russia, what do you expect to tell for instance President Trump about Russia?

Do you think that President Trump gets the severity of the Russian threat as NATO has outlined it over the last several years?

STOLTENBERG: When I met President Trump last month in the White House, we discussed Russia and agreed that the NATO approach to Russia is the right

approach, meaning that we combine defense and dialogue. We do not believe that there is any contradiction between strong deterrence, strong defense

and political dialogue.

[14:45:00]

STOLTENBERG: And in our relationship with Russia, we need both. We need credible deterrence and defense, especially in the eastern part of the

alliance, sending a clear message to Russia that to try to do anything like have done in Ukraine against the NATO ally is impossible. We will -- the

whole alliance will stand behind all allies.

But at the same time, Russia is our biggest neighbor. Russia's there to stay so we had to develop the dialogue with Russia. We will strive for a

more constructive relationship with Russia and therefore NATO does not want a new Cold War or a new arms race.

And therefore, we also work for dialogue with the -- something we call the NATO-Russia Council, where NATO meets Russia. And we discuss many

different issues, including Ukraine.

AMANPOUR: But the thing is you are mostly aligned on that threat, Europe is. But President Trump has had this peculiar relationship, at least in

public with Russia, hesitating to condemn quite a lot of the foreign interventions. And you know that he is obviously -- his campaign under

investigation in the United States over potential links during the election campaign.

How does that complicate your face-to-face, NATO's face-to-face with a new American president over this particular issue of the threat posed by

Russia?

STOUT: The investigation is a domestic issue and it's not for NATO to need to comment on.

What I can say is that the United States, the president, his security team, Secretary Mattis, Secretary Tillerson, the vice president, they have been

very consistent in their messages to NATO and NATO allies on Russia and on the U.S. security guarantees for Europe.

An this is not only in words but also in deeds. We have seen just yesterday that the new budget proposal of the U.S. is going to increase

funding for U.S. military presence in Europe -- more troops, more exercises, more equipment, more prepositioned supplies.

So after many years of a reduction in U.S. presence in Europe we now see an increase.

AMANPOUR: Obviously Prime Minister May will be there, too; her country has just sustained this terrible terrorist attack.

You were prime minister when a terrible terrorist attack struck Oslo and then the island, where so many young people were on their summer camp.

Give me your personal reflections of what that meant to you as prime minister, to your country how you recover from that.

STOLTENBERG: Well, now seeing Manchester and the United Kingdom reminds me in many ways of what I saw in Norway and that is that people stand

together. They do not want to be intimidated or not able to live their normal lives.

And that is a very good thing to see, the unity of the people, standing up against the threats from the terrorists.

AMANPOUR: Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg, thank you very much for joining me.

STOLTENBERG: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And we have just received more breaking news, more developments on this story. A family friend tells CNN that the father of the Manchester

bomber brought both him and his brother back to Libya in the last several weeks to keep them out of trouble.

That is what this friend is telling CNN. We are going to take a short break and we're going to come back with more detail. Stand by.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:50:00]

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

And developments are coming in fast and furious. We're getting more information from our colleagues at CNN about the Manchester bomber and his

family.

We know already that, according to a Libyan militia, the brother of the bomber has been arrested in Tripoli. Now here is more from these same

sources to CNN.

The father of the Manchester bomber brought both him and his brother back to Libya in the last month to, quote, "keep them out of trouble."

They were getting into trouble in Manchester, according to this family friend, because they were causing problems. They wanted revenge for a

friend here, who was killed by a gang. The family friend has requested anonymity. He does not want to give out his name.

Now the father took these brothers, according to this family friend, back to Tripoli. And then at one point the bomber asked for his passport back.

He told his father that he was going to Saudi Arabia to Mecca. Instead, he came back here -- again, according to this friend, who has been speaking to

CNN in the last moments.

Now the bomber, we are told, carried out the attack just three days after returning back here to the U.K. That is what we know from a family friend

who has talked to CNN about these latest developments.

So as we have five arrests now here in the Manchester area since the attack on Monday night, we also have the arrest of the brother in Tripoli,

according to militias there, who arrested him and have spoken to CNN about it.

And now we have further detail about the father, who brought both the bomber and his younger brother back to Tripoli to keep them out of

trouble. They apparently were very, very upset. They were causing trouble because a friend of their had been killed by a gang here in Manchester.

And we now that according to this friend, the bomber came back and created, caused this terrorist attack just three days after his return here to

Manchester. Still, many, many questions out there, how did he plot this, how did he make this bomb, when did he make it and how did he get to put it

inside that foyer?

We will have more on this obviously as the developments proceed.

But right now Manchester is coming together. And the city is also coming together around a point of pride. And as I am standing here with more and

more people who keep putting flowers behind me, we're going to now bring in Paul Cruickshank in our London bureau, who's also been looking and been

reporting these latest developments.

Paul, put this into context.

What have these family friends been telling you and our colleague, Jomana, and others?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERROR ANALYST: Well, we first started putting together this narrative last night, reaching out to the people in the

Libyan community in Manchester who had connections -- of -- through people close to the family.

My colleague, Jomana Karadsheh, has also subsequently confirmed more details. And the narrative that is coming into play here is of the father

bringing him back to Libya and him having his passport confiscated by the father.

But then talking to his mother and saying, I want to go and carry out Umrah pilgrimage to Mecca, that's the pilgrimage that starts in the middle of

May, and managing essentially to trick the mother into giving the passport back so that he could get back to the U.K. get back to this country, it

would appear, determined to carry out some kind of attack.

So new details coming, coming in from people who knew this family.

AMANPOUR: And very briefly, obviously it begs the question, how does a boy, who's angry about his friend being killed by a gang here in

Manchester, become a bomber, become an extremist terrorist?

What's the link there?

CRUICKSHANK: Well, we're going to have to piece that together, Christiane. We don't have --

[14:55:00]

CRUICKSHANK: -- all the answers at this point. And British authorities don't have all the answers, either, although he had come onto their radar

screen. He was at a certain point a concern to the British security services.

The other thing that I'm hearing from a British counterterrorism official is that it is -- it is not clear at this point whether he actually built

the device or whether there is a bombmaker still at large, who put this thing together.

And that uncertainty I'm told is what is contributing to this elevated concern about the threat right now in the United Kingdom because if there

is indeed a bombmaker still at large, they could produce more devices and if this is a wider conspiracy, other attacks could go into operation.

AMANPOUR: Paul, thank you very much.

And when he asked at his press conference earlier, the Manchester chief constable refused to be drawn on whether they had found, quote, "the bomb

factory," although he did say that, of course, this investigation is into a network, not just one individual.

And we just spoke to Mohamed Shafiq, who's the founder of the Ramadan Foundation, who told me that his sources had reported this bomber to the

police for his behavior, his extremist behavior, as many as two years ago.

So as Manchester comes together after this attack, the city is also coming together around a point of pride. Fans of the football group Manchester

United have been pouring into a stadium in Sweden. They are eager to see their team in the finals of the Europa League.

But before kickoff, they held a moment of silence to pay tribute to the victims here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Before the game, they're going to observe a moment's silence here to respect the people who lost their lives in Monday night's

terrorist attack in Manchester.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: A moment of silence for one of Manchester's great football teams, Manchester United, just before kickoff ahead of the final match of

the Europa League.

That is it for our program tonight. Remember, you can always listen to our podcast, see us online at amanpour.com and follow me and this story on

Facebook and Twitter. Thanks for watching and goodbye from Manchester.

END