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Trump Slams Intel Leaks After Manchester Attack; U.S. President In Brussels For NATO Summit; More Arrests & Searches Following Manchester Attack; U.K. Cuts U.S. Off From Manchester Intel After Leaks; Mosque Chairman Says He Quarreled With Bomber; Trump Meets E.U. And NATO Leaders In Brussels; Trump: NATO Members Must Contribute Fair Share; Trump Vows TO Investigate Manchester Leaks; Clarke Expert Warnings Have Repeatedly Been Ignored; Trump Lectures NATO On Defense Spending; Trump, Macron Meet At NATO Summit; Belgium Responds To Trump Criticism. Aired 2:00-2:30 p.m. E.T.

Aired May 25, 2017 - 14:00   ET


[14:02:14] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN AMANPOUR ANCHOR: Tonight, President Trump slammed U.S. leaks over the Manchester attack as deeply troubling, as

his furious British ally temporarily suspends intelligence sharing. We speak to the former U.S. national security czar, Richard Clarke, about all

of this.



information among cooperating partners like this, you do run a risk that some piece of information that could have stopped another attack won't get



AMANPOUR: Plus, President Trump comes face-to-face for the first time with the western alliance at NATO headquarters in Brussels. He lectures them on

burden sharing, but he gets a lecture on wall building. We talked to Germany's Deputy Minister of Finance.

Good evening, everybody, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. While in Manchester, there are more arrests in the

ongoing investigation into that attack on Monday night which killed 22 people, including children, and injured dozens. Authorities continue to

hunt for a wider network as the U.K. suspends any sharing of intelligence on this with the Unites States after leaks of names and photos of the bomb

remnants to the New York Times. More than 75 people have been admitted to hospitals across Manchester, and today, the Queen herself visited some of

them earlier.

Meantime, at a NATO summit in Brussels, inaugurating a brand-new headquarters, President Trump likely got an earful from Prime Minister

Theresa May and issued a statement pledging an end to U.S. intelligence leaks.

We are going to get all of this -- to all of this with CNN's Atika Shubert, who's standing by in Manchester and Phil Black who's going to join us from

Brussels. First to Manchester, where earlier this morning an indignant mayor, Andy Burnham, told CNN that they are no longer sharing intelligence

about the investigation with their American colleagues.


ANDY BURNHAM, GREATER MANCHESTER MAYOR: Honestly, I find it unbelievable that we are in this position. You know, having asked for it to stop, it

didn't stop. And that's why we're going public today. My message is quite a tough one. It is wrong, it is arrogant, and it is disrespectful to the

people of Greater Manchester but particularly to the families of those who lost loved ones and those who are injured. And so, I say to the U.S.

government today, from the very top, a clear statement must be made that this will stop immediately.


[14:05:01] AMANPOUR: Really angry there. And Atika Shubert is following the investigation and she's joining me now live from Manchester. Atika,

what is the latest now?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we've seen is a series of arrests happening across the city. We're actually

outside one of the first locations that was searched. This is -- down the street is the last known address for Salman Abedi, the attacker. And so,

what we've been doing is retracing his steps looking at these various sites that police have searched. One of the people we spoke to was the chairman

of a small mosque not too far from here. And he says he actually encountered Abedi in his mosque when he found out that he hiding out in his

mosque sort of alone. At first, he mistook him for a homeless man. Take a listen to what he said to us.

ABDULLAH MUHSIN NORRIS, SALAAM COMMUNITY MASJID CHAIRMAN: He was just coming out and he's got his shoes on coming from the (INAUDIBLE) area with

his shoes coming onto where you're going to (INAUDIBLE) the mat so I was very angry with him. And I shouted and I said, "You have no right to

(INAUDIBLE) your shoes coming from the (INAUDIBLE) area. And further, why are you doing in the building at this time?" He said he was reading Quran

upstairs so he come down to use the (INAUDIBLE) to refresh his (INAUDIBLE) I said, "Anyway you have to go." But anyway, I quarreled with him, and the

way he behave, he said that, "You shouldn't shout at me." I said, "I shout at you because you behave like a child."

SHUBERT: Now, what we're also looking at is who was he associating with in the last few days, where did he go? We know, for example, that his family

brought him to Libya several weeks ago because they were concerned that he might be getting involved in gang violence. He then apparently lied to his

family and said he was going to be going on a small pilgrimage to Mecca but he ended up, in fact, transiting through Dusseldorf, and then coming to

Manchester. What investigators are looking at now is whether he met anyone along the way. Because of the nature of the bomb, they now believe that

Abedi likely did not act alone and there could be a much more experienced bombmaker at work, so they're really trying to find out who that is and

where he might be.

AMANPOUR: Atika, thanks. And that's why this intelligence is so critical to guard. We're going to go now to Phil Black in Brussels, where the U.S.

and U.K. leaders have been meeting, along with the rest of the NATO allies. Phil, it must have been quite tense for some of the time there.

PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There was a very awkward moment, I think, Christiane. This was when Donald Trump chose to

effectively lecture the leaders of the other member countries on his belief, his consistent criticism, that he doesn't think they're spending

enough on defense. It's not the sentiment or the ideas that would have surprised the leaders, but the precise timing. Donald Trump was in the

process of commemorating two really important new monuments at the NATO headquarters, not just plaques on a wall. He was standing between two

precious artifacts really from NATO's recent history. One was a segment of the Berlin Wall, the other was part of the World Trade Center brought down

on 9/11, and it was while standing between these two monuments that he decided to use language that would have felt very comfortable on -- during

his Presidential campaign. Take a listen.


TRUMP: 23 of the 28 member nations are still not paying what they should be paying and what they are supposed to be paying for their defense. This

is not fair to the people and taxpayers of the United States.


BLACK: Now, what we saw as the cameras moved across the faces of the other - of the leaders were some stern expressions, some rye smiles. And we're

pretty sure we saw an eye-roll in there as well. To give you a context - to give you some context as to why some may question the appropriateness of

Trump's comments at that time, that 9/11 monument is also known as the Article 5 monument because 9/11 was the only event to trigger Article 5,

the common defense commitments that NATO puts into place when one member is attack, attack that led to the Afghan war where many of America's NATO

allies forced and sacrificed over the long course of that wall, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: And just to be clear, Phil, we did not hear the President publicly commit to Article 5, right, commit to defending the NATO allies?

BLACK: That's absolutely true and quite crucial. People were listening for that because President Trump has never committed to Article 5,

publicly. His spokesman later said that that was unnecessary, it would have been superfluous because nature of the monument was all about Article

5, so it's simply unnecessary, he committed to NATO, that's as good as committing to Article 5 according to the Trump administration.

AMANPOUR: All right. Phil Black, Atika Shubert on our two big stories tonight. Thank you, both, for joining me.

[14:09:48] And my next guest, Richard Clarke, was the White House counterterrorism official on 9/11. About two months earlier, he had warned

that something big was about to happen. He had figured that out through intelligence chatter. And he's held high-level national security jobs in

several administrations. He is also the author of several books. His latest is called "Warnings: Finding Cassandras to Stop Catastrophes". So,

I asked him today, just how damaging leaks can be between allies, and even adversaries.


AMANPOUR: Richard Clarke, welcome back to the program.

CLARKE: Good to be with you.

AMANPOUR: I want to start by asking you, I've just returned from Manchester and they have been horrified by the leaks that have turned up in

the U.S. press from U.S. intelligence leaks. And now, Britain is stopping sharing. What is your assessment of this?

CLARKE: Well, they should be horrified. There's absolutely no reason for this kind of detailed information, with an ongoing investigation when there

are still people out there to be found and to be arrested. There's no reason at all for this kind of information. Pictures of the - of the

arming device of the bomb. The public doesn't need to see that. There's no good purpose served by that. And I don't blame the British one bit for

turning off the flow of information. But I will say, Christiane, that when you turn off the flow of information among cooperating partners like this,

you do run a risk that some piece of information that could have stopped another attack won't get through. So because of this climate of lack of

trust, there are risks to lives, frankly, to citizens who might be the victims of the next attack.

AMANPOUR: What does she need to say and the U.K. has already said this is a temporary withholding of the sharing.

CLARKE: She needs to ask him to find out how it happened, find out how the leaks occurred, talk to everyone in the business, give them a stern

talking, too, and let them know that this is not how we cooperate with our best ally, our best source of intelligence overseas. This is about saving

lives. And in the terrorism business, you recall when we were listening to Osama bin Laden's satellite phone, that information leaked out, and it

dried up immediately. We couldn't get him anymore. He stopped using a satellite phone. That leak many, many years ago cost lives, and we can -

we can prove that. And so, that's the risk here. That leaks cost lives.

AMANPOUR: Could I just -- I have to obviously talk about leaks because this is a very leaky White House, and there are leaks, and there are leaks.

Can you make a distinction between the kind of leaks that cost lives and the leaks that are providing information about whatever, you know,

erroneous intelligence sharing by the President himself?

CLARKE: Well, I think there are several different things going on here. One, are leaks that have no purpose other than to make the leaker feel good

and feel important. Then there are whistleblowers who are saying things like, "Oh, the President shared sensitive information with the Russians."

That's not so much a leak as it is a whistleblowing, so that that kind of thing might stop. Someone has got to get to President Trump and let him

know that he can't just say whatever comes into his head when he's talking to another government. He can't tell them where our nuclear submarines

are. He can't tell our number one adversary where Israeli spies are. I've been briefing Presidents for a very long time. You tell them when

something is sensitive. You tell them what they can't tell anyone else, let alone the President of another country.

AMANPOUR: Let me talk now about the European countries. We've - I have covered Paris for that whole year of bombings. We've covered Britain, you

know, 7/7, back in 2005. Now this terrible attack. These are - these are western democracies. Most of these people were born in these countries.

They were raised in these countries. Yes, of parentage that came from the Middle East or North Africa or whatever. What is going on with these


CLARKE: Well, I think Europe is very different from the Unites States in that regard. The Unites States, our Muslim community is well-integrated.

Not perfectly, but well-integrated. There is some discrimination, but very little, thankfully. And we need to eradicate that discrimination which is

still there. But when I look at England, and Germany, and Belgium, and France, it's a much more segregated society when it comes to even people

who were born in that country of Islamic decent. That's a problem, and that's going to be a breeding ground for dissent and for attracting people

to become members of terrorist groups. Those governments need to figure out how to break down those walls and how to bring those communities in to

the nation.

AMANPOUR: You -- your new book, which obviously, we've mentioned, "Warnings: Finding Cassandras to Stop Catastrophes", tell me what you're

trying to say with that book.

[14:14:54] CLARKE: So, what we found in a lot of case studies that we did in the book where we went through a number of different fields,

engineering, biology, astronomy, intelligence, security, was that when there has been a big disaster, if you then do an investigation after the

fact, you find there was someone, an expert, who said that disaster was going to occur, and they were ignored. This is it a recurring if

phenomenon, and it bothered us. And we wanted to say, "How can we listen and hear these experts before the disaster? How can you tell the

difference between someone who's chicken little, the sky is falling, gloom and doom, and an expert who's an outlier, but nonetheless an expert,

someone who sees the risk before anybody else. And if we can do that, maybe we can stop some of these catastrophes in the future.

AMANPOUR: And I just want to bring you back to Manchester quickly because last night I spoke to a leading member of the Muslim community there who

told me that his sources had reported this man, this bomber, to counterterrorism, to the police two years ago. Some people are now saying

it may have even happened earlier. But, you know, he still slipped through and we know he was on the radar, according to the Home Secretary.

CLARKE: Well, as you know, Christiane, tens of thousands of people are on the radar in Europe and they can't all be followed around 24 hours a day.

They can perhaps be -- with a warrant, with a court decision, they can perhaps be followed electronically with their e-mails and telephone calls,

but they now know that we're listening. So it gets very, very difficult. The fact that somebody has been radicalized and goes to those Web sites,

goes to those mosques, is not reason, in a democracy, to arrest them.

AMANPOUR: Last question, you've written this book. What keeps you up at night? What is the biggest threat that you see out there?

CLARKE: Well, so we look in the book at seven new threats, seven current day Cassandras who are predicting things that could be stopped, or at least

mitigated. The one that really struck me is sea level rise. Our Cassandra, Dr. James Hanson of Columbia University, says that within the

life of people today - young people today, we might during their lifetime have sea level rise of six to nine meters if we don't do something about

climate change.

AMANPOUR: Wow. I thought you were going to tell me something about nuclear weapons or terrorism. But this is so fundamental. And again,

President Trump has just met the pope who gave him his 2015 encyclical on the climate.

CLARKE: Well, it's very unlikely that the President will read the people encyclical, but somehow, he needs to get the message that if we don't do

something now, those glaciers will melt in the lifetime of people still on earth today.

AMANPOUR: Oh, it's terrifying, Richard Clarke, thank you so much. Always good to benefit from your expertise.

CLARKE: Thank you, Christiane.


AMANPOUR: And more on that when we come back. We find out what European allies are making of Donald Trump in their first summit with the new

American President. Has the office mellowed candidate Trump? That's next.


AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. President Trump's first international tour rolls on through Brussels today for a series of crucial

meetings with E.U. leaders and at the NATO headquarters. As a candidate, Donald Trump predicted the break-up of the European Union and called NATO

obsolete. Coincidentally, the former President, Barack Obama, is also in Europe where he met with German Chancellor Angela Merkel this morning. No

translator needed there for her body language with these two presidents. While Merkel and Obama shared perhaps the closest alliance amongst western

leaders, so far she has a more awkward relationship with the new American President. But, America has just one President at a time, and European

leaders are trying to find their way to a productive relationship with this one.

Jens Spahn is a member of the Bundestag for the CDU, Angela Merkel's ruling party and is also Germany's Deputy Finance Minister joining me live here on

the studio. Welcome to the program.

[14:20:05] JENS SPAHN, GERMANY'S DEPUTY FINANCE MINISTER: Thank you, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you first about this NATO get-together? I think all were European leaders predicting or anticipating a more mellow Donald

Trump? Did you expect to get the lecture in full public international glare that you did today?

SPAHN: Well, look, first of all, it actually is and still is, a good sign that on his first journey abroad to Brussels and Europe, he was at super

national -- international institutions like the European Union and the NATO. You just mentioned what was said four months ago about the NATO

being obsolete and all of these, and now we see actually the commitment to international - to the international institutions like the NATO. But of

course, it was a bit unusual the setting we have seen today. A bit stiff, a bit unrelaxed, perhaps they should have started with a dinner or

something at this first meeting.

AMANPOUR: But what does it make --

SPAHN: -- to see just -- one more comment. Most of these leaders for the first time met Donald Trump in person. And so, perhaps they could have

started a bit more relaxed about --

AMANPOUR: You know, precisely. I mean, you know, I think even German authorities and many others say, "Yes, we do need to pay up our share and

we need the President of the United States to basically shame everybody else into doing it." But does he get that kind of voluntary, willing

cooperation when he pretty much upbraids them in public?

SPAHN: Well, actually, content-wise if you take away the rhetoric in the situation, the special one today, actually content-wise, it is in the

tradition office predecessors as well as in the tradition of Barack Obama, all American Presidents actually ask their European NATO allies to do more,

to invest more, to spend more in defense and security. And so actually, content-wise there was no surprise. And we do want to do more, by the way,

Germany as well is increasing its spending on defense and security. And -- but the situation was a bit unusual.

AMANPOUR: Quickly about Article 5, I think European leaders, certainly the Secretary-General, they were expecting a show of willingness, that this

President would actually defend publicly the idea of supporting the whole alliance. He didn't say it publicly.

SPAHN: Well, I think his visit to NATO as one of his first visits at all actually abroad is a sign of commitment to the NATO and to working together

in this. And, of course, we - I mean, we do have common operations in Afghanistan for 16 years now, almost. And our troops are there side to

side together to fight - to fight terrorism and Al-Qaeda.

AMANPOUR: What did you make of Angela Merkel's rather pointed allusion, talking about the remnant of the Berlin Wall that was there, that, you

know, success and progress is not built on building walls, but on open and tolerant societies. That was a pretty targeted bit of rhetoric.

SPAHN: Yes. But it feel right now actually in the past years that we have to defend our liberal open societies. You know, after the Berlin Wall came

down, there were less tensions in the world. It felt like, at least. And we all reduced our deficit spending. Now tensions are on the rise for

years already with Russia, with terrorism, with Daesh. And so, we into need to increase now, and so we actually we need to learn again especially

in Europe, I guess, that we have to defend this openness and this liberal democracies.

AMANPOUR: Well, going right along then, Emmanuel Macron, the new French President was there, he had a sit-down with President Trump, there were a

few words exchanged. And President Trump congratulated him on his win. And, you know, he called it amazing. But what does this tell Europe? I

mean, this is the man who represented an open Europe. He openly campaigned on defending Europe while President Trump was more in the thrawl of the

Brexiters and even Marine Le Pen who frankly wanted to destroy the E.U.

SPAHN: Well, what we actually need to have on both sides of the Atlantic actually and within this transatlantic partnership is a common

understanding that peace, freedom, and prosperity in Europe and within the European Union means freedom, peace, and prosperity for Northern America,

too. We have seen that in World War I and II, if there is no peace in Europe, it's hard times for the U.S. as well. And as long as we have this

common understanding within our transatlantic relationship, then we find common ground.

AMANPOUR: And finally, you know, obviously the tone is very different. President Obama was having breakfast with Chancellor Merkel and there were

hundreds of thousands of Germans who came out to his speech, their speech by the (INAUDIBLE) By contrast, there were about 9,000 or so protesters

meeting Donald Trump in Brussels today. But climate is incredibly important, and the two Presidents, the two American Presidents, are very

different on that and very different to Europe. Would you expect in your discussions on climate with this new administration?

SPAHN: First of all, by the way, the start of Obama and Merkel was less more at the very beginning.

AMANPOUR: That is absolutely true.

[14:24:55] SPAHN: So, they developed and so there's still - there's always room for improvement in this. And, of course, we need to discuss the

climate issue and actually -- I mean, if you see what happened just within four months when NATO was obsolete and the European Union not needed and

where we are now, four months later just seeing that he for the first time visits the European Union and the NATO, perhaps on climate, we have a

similar development and we can agree on something and more than perhaps many people expect.

AMANPOUR: And maybe there'll be a miracle. The pope gave him his encyclical on the environment.

SPAHN: We never know.

AMANPOUR: Jens Spahn, Deputy Finance Minister, thank you so much for joining us. And after a break, President Trump deployed decidedly more

diplomatic language towards NATO and Brussels today, but the people were having none of those pleasantries. Imagine turning the President's harsh

words from the past into a slogan for Belgian pride. We'll explain, next.


AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine President Trump flying into a sunny, sparkling Brussels, painting a very different picture from the "hell

hole" he once called this capital. But that was on the campaign trail, and Trump has softened his tone upon coming face to face with a lot of new

people and places. Now, he's "enthusiastic" about Belgium. Not so far say (INAUDIBLE) a local Belgian newspaper has started a high-profile campaign

with Belgians donning the trademark red Trump caps embroidered with "we heart our hellhole" as they discuss their passion for all things Belgian,

life waffles, chocolate, beer, and of course, the people of this European capital. That's it for our program tonight. Remember, you can always

listen to our Podcast, see us online at, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thanks for watching and good-bye from London.