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CNN NEWSROOM

Trump Confronts a Kushner-Russia Controversy; Job Loss Under Trump Health Care; New Arrest Made Connected to Manchester Bombing; Portland Train Attack as Hate Crime; U.S.-Russia Secret Backchannel Meeting; Mississippi Shootings; North Korea Fires Another Test Missile; Spotlight on First Lady Melania Trump. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired May 28, 2017 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[17:00:00] ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: He now confronts a growing controversy focused on Trump's son-in-law Jared Kushner. Sources tell CNN he discussed creating a secret communications channel between the Trump transition team and the Kremlin with Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak. Washington is buzzing with new questions and diverging points of focus. Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly says a secret back channel with Russia is simply not a big deal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KELLY, SECRETARY HOMELAND SECURITY: Any way that you can communicate with people, particularly organizations that may be not particularly friendly to us is a good thing. And again, it comes back to whatever the communication is, comes back into the government and shared across the government so it's not a bad thing to have multiple communication lines to any government.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Democrats, meantime, have a different story. They say Kushner's security clearance should be revoked. Here is what the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee had to say. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: There is another question about his security clearance and whether he was forthcoming about his contacts on that. If these allegations are true and he had discussions with the Russians about establishing a back channel and didn't reveal that, that's a real problem. But I do think there ought to be a review of his security clearance to find out whether he was truthful, whether he was candid. If not, then there is no way he can maintain that kind of a clearance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Let's talk it over with CNN's Washington correspondent Ryan Nobles. Ryan, the White House had a visitor that turned some heads today. Fill us in.

RYAN NOBLES, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right Ana. We spotted Marc Kasowitz, who is the private attorney that's been retained by President Trump to represent him essentially as a private citizen in this inquiry into Russia and their attempt to intervene in the U.S. election and whether or not the president and his campaign played any role in that.

Now Kasowitz was spotted in the south lawn of the White House leaving in fact with Ivanka Trump, the president's daughter and of course the wife of Jared Kushner, who is the son-in-law of President Trump who is at the center of this latest round of controversy related to this back channel that he allegedly attempted to set up with the Kremlin back during the transition.

Now, we know that the president has been here at the White House today meeting with his advisors talking about an overall strategy as to how the White House is going to plan for the next several months as it relates to Russia and their overall domestic agenda. And we know that there were plans to meet with lawyers as well.

We don't know if Kasowitz was someone that met with the president specifically one-on-one, but it's pretty clear, Ana, as you can see what's happening here in Washington, that the president and his team are preparing for a long and difficult fight. But one they are not ready to give in by any stretch.

CABRERA: We heard from Democrat Adam Schiff. We heard from the Department of Homeland Security secretary, but how are Republicans there on the Hill reacting to the Kushner controversy?

NOBLES: Well, Lindsey Graham, the senator from South Carolina, was on "STATE OF THE UNION" this morning with Dana Bash, and you know, it's important to point out that Graham is not necessarily someone who's complimentary of the president very often. But he has a different take on this whole controversy surrounding Jared Kushner and the secret back channel. Take a listen to what he said this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I don't know who leaked this supposed conversation, but just think about it this way. You got the ambassador of Russia reporting back to Moscow on an open channel. Hey, Jared Kushner's going to move into the embassy. I don't trust this story as far as I can throw it.

I think it makes no sense that the Russian ambassador would report back to Moscow on a channel that he most likely knows we're monitoring. The whole story line is suspicious. I've never been more concerned and suspicious about all things Russia than I am right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOBLES: The senator is suspicious there, Ana, but we should point out that the White House is essentially ignoring questions about this particular line of inquiry. So, they're not confirming or denying that this took place when administration officials are asked about it. They don't speak to Jared Kushner's role specifically, but more to the concept in very broad terms. So we don't really know how the White House feels about this, which is part of the reason that there is so much suspicion from folks like Lindsey Graham.

CABRERA: All right, Ryan Nobles, thank you.

White House lawyers started studying the impeachment process long before the FBI investigation turned its attention to Jared Kushner. But at least one Democratic senator says he's not in a hurry to start the impeachment ball rolling. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CORY BOOKER (D), NEW JERSEY: I'm not going to rush to impeachment. I think we need to deal with this in a very sobered way. This can't be a re-litigation of an election that is now passed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: I want to bring in the senior senator from Indiana, Democrat Joe Donnelly. Senator, thanks for spending some time with us on this weekend. You just heard your senate colleague there, Cory Booker say he's in no rush toward impeachment. Are you on the same page?

SEN. JOE DONNELY (D), INDIANA: That's another discussion that I'm having. I'm more obviously concerned about the actions of

[17:05:00] Jared Kushner or the alleged actions of Jared Kushner. This is an extraordinarily serious issue and I think we are in good hands and that Robert Mueller is a special counsel and will be working on this.

CABRERA: Do you think some Democrats are at risk of making this look like they're playing partisan politics with this investigation into Russia's meddling in the 2016 election?

DONNELLY: Well, you know, that's certainly not what I'm trying to do. What I'm trying to do is get to the facts in that particular area, but then continue to move forward on areas like jobs and standing up for working families.

CABRERA: I know that that's what your focus is on, but the Russia investigation is still a huge topic of discussion around the country because it does get right to the heart of our democracy. What do you think needs to happen in moving forward in that investigation at this point?

DONNELLY: Well, I think what has to happen is that we have to have Robert Mueller, the special prosecutor, look into these allegations regarding Jared Kushner. If true, they are as serious as it gets. Ambassador Kislyak is extraordinarily close to the Russian intelligence agencies, to Putin. This is a country that has invaded our friends like Ukraine, has taken Crimea, has killed a number of Ukrainian soldiers.

And so this is a country that we are at odds with on almost every front. And to hear these kind of allegations at someone so close to the White House is really, really serious, and we need to get to the facts. And I think Robert Mueller will take us wherever the facts go. CABRERA: You say you want to talk about jobs. That's your focus, so

let's talk about Carrier, a company located there in your home state. Back in December, you'll recall the plant agreed to keep 1,100 jobs in the U.S. The real number as we really looked closer was about 800 jobs, but fast forward to this week, Carrier detailed a new plan to ship jobs from the plant in the U.S. to Mexico, at least 338 jobs. That could come just before Christmas later this year.

As a reminder, here's what candidate Trump said on the campaign trail about Carrier. I want to read it to you. He says, "Here's what's going to happen. They're going to call me and they are going to say, Mr. President, Carrier has decided to stay in Indiana, 100 percent. It's not like we have an 80 percent chance of keeping them or a 95 percent -- 100 percent." So senator, what do you think is happening?

DONNELLY: Well what's happening is greed. It's as simple as greed. The savings here or the alleged savings because everybody, all the workers has said, look, we'll work together with you to help make sure that there's no loss of profitability at all as opposed to Mexico. The alleged savings here, about 2 cents per share on shares that were earning about $6.50. So it is like nothing. This is simply greed.

They're moving these jobs for $3 an hour from a plant that is extraordinarily profitable, the highest possible quality. Sales are really, really good. And so this is a situation where the CEO before the present one, on his last day, took out over $100 million. And so they never have a dime for working people, but there is always another couple of million dollars for the CEOs in this.

It's breaking the American promise of workers working together with the company to try to do a good job for them, see really, really good profits and success, and in return you get a decent paycheck and you can take care of your family.

CABRERA: It seems easy though to say greed is what's at fault. Now, I just want to want to bring us back to this deal that was cut back in November with Carrier. It involved $7 million in state tax credits for Carrier's parent company United Technologies to keep jobs in the state but the company has been out there saying it's moving toward automation.

And so bigger picture with advancing technology, that's the reality for not just Carrier but for a lot of these manufacturing companies. How are jobs cuts to be avoided?

DOWWELL: Well, what we've been doing is skills training, training everybody in the state. It's the automation part that we can work with on a regular basis when we know. We work together with the companies and we're able to make all of those kind of things work. We're one of the most manufacturing intensive states out there.

It's the part when jobs like this are moved to Mexico for $3 an hour that's really the breaking of the contract. And the breaking of the compact, the American promise.

CABRERA: All right. I want to pivot to the president's first trip abroad. Listen to what German Chancellor Angela Merkel had to say today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANGELA MERKEL, GERMAN CHANCELLOR (via translator): The times when we could completely count on others, they are over to a certain extent. I have experienced this in the last few days. And that is why I can only say that we Europeans must really take our fate into our own hands.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: If you look at the full read-out of those comments, she also talks about the U.S. and the U.K. and she acknowledges this country, but goes on to say, we have to worry about ourselves. What do you make of those comments coming on the heels of the president's meetings with world leaders this past week?

DONNELLY: Yes, I think it's really heartbreaking

[17:10:00] as someone who loves our country so much and has seen us work together with the Germans on the Berlin Wall and to see President Reagan talk about seeing the wall come down, to hear John Kennedy say "ich bin ein Berliner." To see all of these things where we work together for so long, I think that President Trump really needs to step up his game in this area, that instead of walking away from our friends. We are so much stronger when we work together.

This is exactly what Putin is trying to do, is to separate the countries in the E.U., to separate our NATO partners and to drive a wedge between us, and these kinds of policies that we're pursuing are leading right into his hands.

CABRERA: Senator Joe Donnelly, thank you for your time. Happy Memorial Day weekend.

DONNELLY: It's my privilege and I want to thank all the families who have lost family members in saving our country and in saving the world.

CABRERA: Absolutely. Thanks again.

Right now, I want to fill you in on some news that's coming in to us. Laptops, e-tablets, iPads, they're all banned right now in passenger cabins on some flights entering the U.S. but those restrictions may be expanding. This busy holiday travel weekend -- this is information you need to know about -- this morning, Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly was asked whether he's considering expanding the electronics ban to all international flights, both into and out of the U.S. and here's how he responded.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS HOST: Are you going to ban laptops from the cabin on all international flights, both into and out of the U.S.?

KELLY: I might. That's a quick answer.

WALLACE: Yes, well, expand a little bit.

KELLY: Well, there's a real threat. There's numerous threats against aviation. That's really the thing that they're obsessed with, the terrorists. The idea of knocking down an airplane in-flight, particularly if it's a U.S. carrier, particularly if it is full of mostly U.S. folks, people. It's real. We're still following the intelligence.

The very, very good news is again that we are working incredibly close with friends and partners around the world. We are going to, and in the process of defining this, but we are going to raise the bar for generally speaking aviation security much higher than it is now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: And as we reported earlier this week, the original ban only applied to flights coming into the U.S. from eight different countries, mostly there in the Middle East and Africa.

We are getting news now of another North Korea weapons test. The country's state-run news agency reporting North Korea tested a new antiaircraft system this weekend. For weeks, the north has also been launching ballistic missiles in defiance of warnings from the U.S. and the west. The state-news agency says the North Korean leader, Kim Jong-Un, supervised these tests and plans to deploy the system across the country.

Back here at home, we're looking into how the Republican health care plan and how it could affect a lot more than just health coverage, the impact on jobs. What's going to happen to the thousands of workers in the health care industry? You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

[17:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: What's going to happen to your health care? The answer depends on what comes of the Republican health care plan that now sits in the hands of the Senate. But here's what we learned from the non- partisan Congressional Budget Office report this week. It says the plan that's proposed will leave millions of Americans without health insurance.

The CBO estimates by 2026, 23 million fewer people would have health care under the bill compared to Obamacare. People in some states stand to lose more than just coverage under the GOP plan. Medical professionals fear job cuts impacting more than a million positions that were added under Obamacare. CNN's Miguel Marquez went to Trump country in Kentucky to see how one region would be affected.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANTHONY YONTS, PHYSICIAN: Open up for me and say ahh.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Dr. Anthony Yont said Hazard's Quantum Health Care in constant motion. Today, he employs 50 people, his practice expanding.

YONTS: I would 70 percent of our economy is driven by health care.

MARQUEZ: You think 70 percent of your economy. That's just you living here that's what you see.

YONTS: Yes. That's just looking at it given the (INAUDIBLE). Health care is the driving economic force in our area.

MARQUEZ: Kentucky, which expanded Medicaid and created its own insurance exchange under Obamacare, has seen both patients and the health care workers who serve them skyrocket.

JONATHAN PIERCY, NORTH FORK VALLEY COMMUNITY HEALTH CENTER: It takes a big team to run a clinic like this.

MARQUEZ: Dr. Jonathan Piercy at University of Kentucky's Center for Rural Health in Hazard trains future doctors.

PIERCY: We've seen a lot of clinics open lately. We've seen some new clinics that have come around. We've just built a huge new wing on the hospital.

MARQUEZ: All of that comes with jobs -- jobs now at risk if the Obamacare Medicaid expansion is eliminated by 2020 as Congress is now considering. Since 2014, as states expanded Medicaid, some 1.1 million jobs were created nationwide. Eastern Kentucky, coal country, the fifth congressional district stands to lose more jobs than any other district in the entire country.

JASON BAILEY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, KENTUCKY CENTER FOR ECONOMIC POLICY: By one study we would lose 20,000 jobs in the Fifth Congressional District.

MARQUEZ: 20,000 jobs.

BAILEY: 20,000 jobs, which is about double the number of jobs we've lost in the coal industry. So it would be the other shoe to drop on the economy of eastern Kentucky.

MARQUEZ: How good is it to be a nurse in eastern Kentucky right now?

JANET NOBLE, LICENSED NURSE: I mean if you love taking care of people and that kind of environment, it's really good. I mean, there's no, like I say, there's not a shortage of jobs.

MARQUEZ: Nurses in high demand here, and well paid, evidence of a driving health care industry everywhere. This mall, once a Wal-Mart, now a super-sized medical center.

MARY MEADE-MCKENZIE, CEO, KENTUCKY RIVER COMMUNITY CARE: We're constantly growing.

MARQUEZ: Kentucky River Community Care now has 70 facilities, has hired more than 150 employees in the last few years and can't expand fast enough.

MARQUEZ: How big a piece of that is the fact that they can pay for it with Medicaid.

MEADE-MCKENZIE: 80 percent,

[17:20:00] I mean because, you know, for our programs we have to look at revenue to expand.

MARQUEZ: Health care jobs on the rise here. Ending the Medicaid expansion, another devastating blow. Miguel Marquez, CNN, Hazard, Kentucky.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: I want to bring in someone who literally wrote the book on Kentucky's Appalachian region, "Hillbilly Elegy: A Memoir of a Family and Culture in Crisis" is a "New York Times" number one best-seller and author, J.D. Vance, joins me now via Skype. J.D. thanks for spending time with us today.

Here are the numbers, 1.3 million Kentuckians are on Medicaid today. About a third are covered by that Medicaid expansion under Obamacare. This is Trump country. How worried are these folks about the GOP health care plan?

J.D. VANCE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think they are especially worried, and what's so interesting is when you talk to folks back home, even though Russia and Comey and all of these scandals dominate the news, they dominate twitter, they dominate a lot of what journalists are talking about, the things I hear most commonly from folks back home, those who voted for Hillary Clinton and those who voted for Donald Trump, is that they're most worried about losing the Medicaid expansion and most worried about losing their health care.

But it is interesting actually to sort of step outside of my own twitter bubble when people were so obsessed with what's going on with the Russiagate, so called, and actually talked to people and realized that the thing that may be most politically damaging for the president right now is if the AHCA passes in its present form. That's the thing that I thing is most politically destructive for him potentially if it ends up passing a month (INAUDIBLE) voters.

CABRERA: I mean, look at the poll, Quinnipiac came out this week and it shows only 57 percent of Americans or a whole 57 percent disapprove. Only 20 percent actually supports this plan. The Congressional Budget Office again showing this plan could hurt the very people Trump promised he wouldn't leave behind, the so-called forgotten men. You are in touch with the president's blue collar supporters. What you just said sounds like this could have an impact on mid-terms next year. Am I reading that right?

VANCE: I think it definitely could have an impact on mid-terms. Of course, what we have to remember is that this is just a bill that hasn't yet actually passed and there's a question about whether you can address some of the core deficiencies in the bill. I think you could, it would require pretty significant amendments, but I do think you could fix the bill. And of course if you fix the bill in such a way that millions of people aren't losing health coverage either through Medicaid or through another mechanism, then I think it is not going to be quite as politically destructive.

I think that the most important lesson from this particular conversation, this debate, meaning this health care debate, is that while a lot of folks think that Trump was elected to effectively enact a very ideological traditional Republican agenda, what a lot of Donald Trump's voters liked about him is that he explicitly went against some of the core tenets of the Republican Party on trade, on immigration, on taxes, and certainly on health care where remember, in the campaign, he was pilloried for saying that people were not going to lose their health insurance, for saying he wasn't going to let people die on streets.

And that's ultimately why a lot of people voted for him. Now you could be critical, as I have bee of a lot of the policy decisions that are implicit in the ACA. You can say that we need to reform our health care system, but the only thing worse for a lot of people than Medicaid as it exists in its current form is not having any health insurance, period.

And I think that Republicans have to remember that a lot of the voters who made them empowered, who gave them power, who made Donald Trump president, they're not especially ideological people. What they want is folks who are going to protect their local economy and certainly protect their health care and I think that's the real danger of this particular piece of legislation.

CABRERA: So it's not just the health care issue. President Trump's budget proposes massive cuts to food stamps. J.D. of the top ten states with the largest percentage of people on food stamps, seven of them voted for Trump. What is the Trump administration putting on (INAUDIBLE) on his proposed budget?

VANCE: Well, my guess is that the political calculus hasn't actually been especially thoughtful (ph). My guess here is that what's effectively happened is that the Trump administration has outsourced domestic policy to Congress and hasn't really focused on some of its core constituencies and hasn't really thought very seriously about the fact that a lot of what's being proposed is, one, very contrary to what Donald Trump promised during the campaign, and more importantly, is actually contrary to what a lot of his core voters want in this very moment.

And republicans have to deal with that real contradiction that exists in their constituency. You have very ideological folks who maybe are excited about tackling some of these government programs. And you have the base of working in middle class Republican voters who actually like some of these programs, or even if they don't like them, they don't want them completely taken away. So, that calculus needs to be made within the White House. And if it is not, I do think the Republicans across the board are going to pay a pretty heavy political price.

[17:25:00] CABRERA: Real quick J.D. before we let you go, are you going to run for senate?

VANCE: No. CABRERA: Rumors are floating around out there.

VANCE: Yes, I've heard those rumors, but I think that there are things that I can do outside political office that are a lot more interesting right now and hopefully a lot more helpful.

CABRERA: All right, J.D. Vance, thanks so much.

VANCE: Thank you.

CABRERA: Turning to new details in the fatal train stabbings in Portland. The FBI now looking into possible hate crime charges, this as families mourn the loss of two men who tried to intervene, two men who people are calling heroes. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Welcome back. Now to the latest on the terror investigation in the U.K. Manchester police say they've made another arrest linked to last week's concert bombing that killed 22 people. A total of 12 people are now in custody but the threat still looms. There is concern others are still out there, people who may be connected to the attack.

[17:30:00] Meanwhile, a poignant show of resilience in Manchester.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(CROWD SINGING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Those are thousands of runners singing the Oasis song, "Don't Look Back in Anger," in honor of Monday's victims. This event was the Great Manchester Run and security, as you can imagine, was tight. Crowds filled the streets. Less than a week after the attack in one what runner called determination mixed with absolute unity.

And we have new details in the investigation of that fatal stabbing attack on a commuter train in Portland, Oregon. Investigators are looking into the suspect's background trying to determine if he'll face federal hate crime charges. We're also learning more about these two men who tried to stop the attack but lost their lives. The man on the left side of your screen, a recent college grad. The man on the right, an Army vet and father of four.

Here's CNN's Dan Lieberman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN LIEBERMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They're being hailed as heroes. The three stabbing victims in Friday's brutal knife attack were honored in a vigil last night in Portland. The victims came to the defense of two women aboard a crowded train at rush hour who were the target of the suspect anti-Muslim and racial slurs. One of those killed, 53-year-old Ricky John Best, was on his way home from work. He was a city employee, an Army veteran and father of four. His employers remember him as a model public servant. His mother telling CNN he liked to help people and said he will be missed greatly.

And 23-year-old Taliesin Namkai Meche, a recent graduate of Reed College, an economics major, his school remembering him in a statement. One professor saying, "he was a wonderful human being, as good as they come. And now he is a hero to me." A third stabbing victim, 21-year-old Micah David Cole Fletcher survived and is recovering at a hospital. His mother speaking out, grateful that her son is alive.

MARGIE FLETCHER, VICTIM'S MOTHER: I am feeling very, very lucky. I'm thanking God. I'm feeling bad for my son who thinks it's his fault.

LIEBERMAN: She says she's not surprised he tried to intervene and help others.

FLETCHER: Micah's always done that. I've told him his whole life. One of these days, Micah -- I worry and I've always worried about him. But he's always been that way.

LIEBERMAN: Strangers are leaving notes and flowers at the site of the attack, calling the men heroes. Dan Lieberman, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: They are the best of us.

Some new questions from Republican lawmakers about whether Russia is maliciously releasing fake intelligence to further stir distrust. We'll hear what a former FBI agent thinks next.

[17:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM and the controversy surrounding President Trump's son-in-law and Russia is generating strong reactions in Washington. Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly, he says Jared Kushner's conversation about a potential secret back channel to the Kremlin is simply not a big deal. Meantime, I want you to hear what the former director of National Intelligence had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES CLAPPER, FORMER DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: My dashboard warning light was clearly on and I think that was the case with all of us in the intelligence community, very concerned about the nature of these approaches to the Russians.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Let's talk it over with law enforcement contributor Steve Moore and former FBI special agent. Steve, thanks for being with us. How significant is Kushner's discussion of this proposed secret back channel to the Kremlin in your mind?

STEVE MOORE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it's very significant on two or three levels. First of all, even if it was innocent in nature, it creates yet more smoke. And people are choking on the smoke that's already out there. It could be very problematic, depending on how far he wanted to go with these back channels. It's not unusual for administration-elect, personnel, to go to different countries, go to their emissaries, and try to start advancing their foreign policy before the inauguration. However, I'm pretty spooked by the fact that he wanted to do it at the embassy, which is about the worst possible place you could do anything like that.

CABRERA: It's made a lot of people question if this is even true. I mean is it something that the Russians were saying to try to throw off intelligence agencies here in the U.S.? How confident are you that the FBI and other intel agencies are able to accurately decipher what's real and what's fake info as they're gathering intelligence?

MOORE: Well, it's dangerous right now. The Russians have a thing called dezinformatsiya and that is disinformation. And they have used it for decades and decades. They put out disinformation in the form of fake U.S. documents that told people that the United States, the CIA, was responsible for the grand mosque takeover in Mecca in 1979.

They don't have to submit these fake documents to us because we're not bad at picking out the fakes. But if they float them to other nations, they don't have a way to vet them. And so they could damage us very badly. And so now you don't know what's real anymore.

CABRERA: It almost seems as if Russia is sort of throwing the whole kitchen sink out there, assuming information is going to get leaked. Is that how you see it?

MOORE: See, that's the problem right now. We have got somewhere in the intelligence

[17:40:01] community at least one person who is willing to leak. And the Russians are depending upon that. And my question is, not so much, I mean certainly is Jared Kushner in bed with the Russians, but do we have somebody in the intelligence community who's in bed with the Russians who is agreeing to leak damaging or even false information.

Now, the Russians could take the attempt at a back channel, embellish it, and then float it back out as something completely different, a straw man disinformation, or they could just make it up out of whole cloth. This is why it is crucial for Bob Mueller to dig into this as deeply as possible for two reasons.

Either the nation has to have complete confidence on the administration on the subject or they have to know that things were done wrong. But there can be no grey area left when this is over or nothing is going to be -- nobody is going to have confidence in the government anymore.

CABRERA: And a lot of people have said that Mueller's investigation should be done like very secretly so that he gets to the bottom of it without, you know, bits and pieces of information dripping out. But then there is the question of transparency and does transparency help people understand what the truth is? What's your take?

MOORE: Well, transparency hasn't done the government much good lately. I mean, Director Comey's transparency during the election was inappropriate I believe as much as I respect him. So, listen, Bob Mueller is going to be investigating what is basically an alleged espionage case and maybe an actual espionage case. Espionage cases are not open. You do not send that stuff out to the world. Our problems right now are based on so much information unvetted floating around, true, untrue and intentionally untrue, that if Bob Mueller were to be open with this classified investigation, it would give away sources, materials.

It would be highly inappropriate. And, frankly, it needs to be quiet until they come up with a finding, and then announce the finding. Either you trust Bob Mueller to do this or you don't. But I do, and somebody's got to do this and do it quietly and fast.

CABRERA: Steve Moore, thanks for joining us. We appreciate it.

MOORE: Thanks for having me.

CABRERA: Eight people are dead in Mississippi, including a sheriff's deputy. The shooter now says he's unfit to live after what he's done. More on this disturbing story next in the CNN NEWSROOM.

[17:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Breaking news into CNN. North Korea apparently has tested an unidentified projectile. That's how it's being characterized. The latest provocation by Pyongyang and the north has been relentless in testing these ballistic missiles over the past several weeks. It almost feels like once a weekend.

Well, South Korea's president has now ordered a meeting of his country's national security council for the morning. This follows the report that the North tested a new anti-aircraft system as well this weekend. David McKenzie is joining us by the phone. David, what more can you tell us about this new projectile launch of some sort?

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: (via telephone): Well, Ana, this happened just moments ago. It appears from the eastern part of the Korean Peninsula, Pyongyang testing yet another projectile of some kind, potentially a ballistic missile from the eastern coastline heading in an easterly direction towards Japan. We don't know much at this stage but what we do know this has been a relentless series of tests of ballistic missiles and similar military action by Kim Jong-Un in recent weeks despite the Trump administration calling on the regime to stop these tests and calling on China to help.

It seems very little at this stage can be done to try and curb these efforts. So, the long-term effort appears to be the regime trying to put a nuclear warhead or test the capability of a nuclear warhead on one of these ballistic missiles. And it certainly having people worried in this region what we do there now. I know in the last few minutes this projectile was tested, South Koreans scrambling together and leaking and I'm sure the same will be happening in Japan in this hour, Ana.

CABRERA: David McKenzie reporting. We know there are a few details. Thanks for that update. We'll of course stay on top of the news and bring you new information as we get it. Again, North Korea just firing off an unidentified projectile somewhere to the east. South Korea confirming this and now working to gather more details.

Some horrific news out of southern Mississippi today. A man went on a shooting spree, killed eight people. One of them was a sheriff's deputy. This is the suspected gunman in this video being arrested early today, several hours after police say he shot those eight people dead. The man was later recorded on camera saying he wanted police to kill him.

CNN correspondent Polo Sandoval is gathering more details from this. Polo, what are you learning about the victims and the killers possible motive?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Ana, at this point we are learning more about at least one of those individuals who was shot and killed yesterday, that is a sheriff's deputy with Lincoln County, a man by the name of William Durr, who was shot and killed during the overnight hours allegedly by this individual here.

Deputy Durr, a 36-year-old man there who was responding to an original disturbance call that started this deadly night. Authorities not saying much about the other individuals who were shot and killed. This man, someone who is currently in custody now identified as Willie Corey Godbolt, a 35-year-old man who was arrested. He told a reporter with a clear (INAUDIBLE) yesterday that some of those locations there

[17:50:00] as he was trying to take his children home. He shared with the reporter that he was sorry that officers didn't kill him. Take listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's what they do. They intervene. I caused him his life. I'm sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So what's next for you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kill. Kill. My intentions was to have them kill me. I ran out of bullets.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's a good thing they showed mercy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suicide by cops was my intention. I ain't fit to live. Not after what I done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANDOVAL: I ran out of bullets, that coming from a man that remains behind bars. Ana, he's expected to be charged with capital murder for the alleged murder of that officer there and also first degree murder charges for the rest of the victims here. No motive yet clearly established, Ana.

CABRERA: So disturbing. Polo Sandoval, thank you. President Trump's first foreign trip wasn't only a debut on the world

stage for the president but also a way for the world to meet the sometimes secretive first lady. We'll take a look at what we learned about Melania Trump next.

[17:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: The president and the first lady Melania returned to Washington late last night ending a trip that brought the first lady out of the shadows and on to the world stage. Suddenly, there are pictures of her everywhere, from meeting the Pope at the Vatican to stepping out in Italy in a $51,000 jacket by Dolce & Gabbana to the now infamous hand swat as the first couple arrived in Israel.

No question this was a big week for melania Trump. Joining us to discuss former chief o staff to First Lady Laura Bush, Anita McBride. Anita, what did you learn about the image Melania Trump wants the world to see? I know you noticed something right when she stepped off Air Force One in Saudi Arabia.

ANITA MCBRIDE, CHIEF OF STAFF OF LAURA BUSH: Yes, absolutely. What I saw is that she's very comfortable in this role and, you know, there's a lot of pent up demand to know who Mrs. Trump is and what kind of first lady she will be and that is true for every first lady. There is a healthy interest in who they are and how they will take on this role. But because we hadn't seen very much of Mrs. Trump, even through the campaign and transition this was a real opportunity for her to show the American people but also the world that she can be on the world stage and represent our country.

CABRERA: What do you say are her best moments?

MCBRIDE: Well, I think a couple of the things that she chose to do on the trip in Saudi Arabia in particular to go to that all female call center at General Electric really sort of a subtle sign and showing the Saudi women that she appreciates the progress that they're trying to make, and also, you know, that is a window for us here in the United States to see with that Saudi women are making a bit of progress. It may be slow by our standards but that really was an interesting selection of something to do.

And then of course we could see that she's passionate and compassionate about children and her visits to the two hospitals particularly when she spoke to those children in Italian. I thought that really showed something about here's this foreign born first lady who speaks languages and she's using them.

CABRERA: She speaks five languages. Well this trip also gave us a look at her style. We've seen all of those pictures. She's being compared to Jackie Kennedy but there has been some criticism about this designer jacket that she wore from Dolce & Gabbana. It's worth $51,000. We know that's about the median income of people here in the U.S. Is there such a thing as fashion diplomacy?

MCBRIDE: Well, there is, you know, it's interesting and we saw that our recent or past first lady too with Mrs. Obama certainly was scrutinized for her clothes and complimented for her clothes and the way she represented herself in a gracious way both at home and abroad. Mrs. Trump carefully chose what she was going to wear, obviously. We had heard that. Always appropriate and always gracious.

CABRERA: Was the jacket a misstep do you think?

MCBRIDE: Well, I think that's one of those things too and when I saw it and heard it, I remembered sort of that first trip that Mrs. Obama had made in 2009 to Spain which was a private trip and the expensive clothes and all those -- in all those things are just items that you live and learn and you're sensitive to and probably don't get repeated again.

CABRERA: I got to ask you about that little hand swat that went viral. Are people trying too hard to read into this or do you think it does tell us something about how she interacts with her husband and a window into their relationship?

MCBRIDE: Well, I think you're right, you know, to say are we reading a little too much into it. Partly yes, but then also -- and again, we really always look -- the public looks to see if there's any light of day between the president and his spouse and I'm not sure that that was really the case here.

If you really examining closely that red carpet, it's very narrow for four people to walk across and at one point he got ahead of her and I think when he reached back for her, I think her movement there with her hand was like, listen I know you're the president, but I'm here on the global stage with you too.

CABRERA: It very well could have been that or I suppose it could also have been like no, no don't worry about it. There's not enough room for me and who knows. Anita McBride, really appreciate your time. That was fun, thanks.

MCBRIDE: Thank you Ana.

CABRERA: Stay with us. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

[18:00:00] And we're back. I'm Ana Cabrera here in New York at the top of the hour, 6:00 in the eastern part of the U.S. and President Trump is back in the West Wing as we speak. He returned from his first overseas trip less than 24 hours ago.