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Third London Attacker Was Known To Authorities; Ellwood Tried To Save Officer In Westminster Attack; Security One Of Key Issues Of UK Election; London Attacker Featured In Documentary On Extremism; Fired FBI Director James Comey To Testify On Thursday; Remembering Bobby Kennedy. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired June 6, 2017 - 14:00:00   ET


[14:00:12] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Tonight, the British Minister who rushed to save a policeman in the Westminster Bridge

attack has a message for these terrorists.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good people, unarmed people, will stand up for our values and we will not let you in.


AMANPOUR: Also ahead, this extremist was allowed to rant and recruit for years. Turns out he inspired one of the London Bridge killers.

Coming up, the Muslim community leader who tried to take him on. He joins me live.

And later, an exclusive interview with Victoria Nuland (ph), who was America's top Russia diplomat at the head of James Comey's first public

testimony since Trump fired him as the FBI chief.


AMANPOUR: Good evening everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. More victims of the London Bridge attack

are being named. Kirsti Bowden (ph), a 28-year-old nurse was killed as she ran to help the injured. And the last of the three killers was also

named. Youssef Zaghba, a 22-year-old Italian of Moroccan descent, living in East London.

Like Khuram Butt, Zaghba was known to security officials who stopped him trying to fly from Italy to Turkey, and perhaps on to Syria last year. And

they also found extremist material on his cell phone.

As for Butt, he had even appeared in a TV documentary called "The Jihadis Nextdoor". It turns out he was a follower of the London extremist, Anjem

Choudary, who preached with impunity in public for years.

This is what he told me back in 2007, for a documentary I made shortly after the 7/7 London bombings.


ANJEM CHOUDARY: All of the world belongs to Allah, and we will live according to the Sharia (inaudible). This is a fundamental belief of the

Muslims. If I was to go to the jungle tomorrow, I'm not going to live like the animals.

AMANPOUR: Anjem, basically, a lot of what you're saying is, it's my way or the high way. I mean, how does that kind of logic fit into a democratic

state like the one we live in now, like the one you live in? You live here by choice. Do you not believe in democracy?

CHOUDARY: No, I don't at all. We believe that people must live according to the Sharia.

AMANPOUR: That would mean in a country such as Britain, people would have their hands cut off for robbery, would be stoned for what you call

adultery, hanged -- you can see that happening?

CHOUDARY: One day, the Sharia will be implemented in Britain. It's a matter of time. Whether it comes from our peaceful discussion and debate,

whether it comes because the Mujahideen will send an army one day, Allah knows.


AMANPOUR (voiceover): But how about those who carried out the London subway attacks on July 7, 2005? Choudary gives an ominous answer.

CHOUDARY: I'm not planning to blow myself up on the underground or carry out a martial operation in Britain. However, those people maybe will be

doing what Mohammad Sidique Khan and (inaudible) others did, probably because of the same reasons which they included in their wills. I think

you really need to look at that.


AMANPOUR: Extraordinary, all those years later, to hear those flagrant comments. And Choudary was finally arrested and jailed just last year for

supporting ISIS on YouTube.

But why wasn't Butt followed or arrested after arousing suspicions in 2015? I asked Tobias Ellwood, Minister for the Middle East and Counter Terrorism,

and he knows these dangers firsthand, because he was first on the scene during the last van and knife (ph) attack on Parliament where he tried to

resuscitate PC Keith Palmer, who had been fatally stabbed.


AMANPOUR: Tobias Ellwood, welcome to the program.


AMANPOUR: You went through such a terrible situation, a personal situation, during the last bridge and knife attack in Westminster. I

guess, what were your thoughts? What sort of memories did that evoke when you saw what was going on on Saturday night at London Bridge and borough


ELLWOOD: This was closed down in eight minutes, and I think we can be hugely proud of our armed response units and other members of the security

services, but also the general public, that will not stand for this. And that has to be a message for any would-be terrorist, that good people,

unarmed people, will stand up for our values and we will not let you in.

AMANPOUR: It was amazing to listen to the reports of ordinary civilians at restaurants and elsewhere throwing chairs, trying to do everything they

could, to deter these people until the police came and took them out.

[14:05:00] Can you go back a little bit and tell me what it was like for you that day on March 22, particularly as you tried to save the life of PC


ELLWOOD: Well, I was simply one of many people that stepped forward that day, and I'm very sorry that we weren't able to save the life of PC Keith

Palmer. But it was a wider reflection of the challenge that we face, and the other attacks that have taken place in Manchester, and indeed London,

so that we collectively, internationally need to work together on arguably what is the biggest 21st century threat.

AMANPOUR: What Anjem Choudary, which you might have heard, said to me years ago, this is 2007, he talked about bringing Sharia to London, about

the Mujahideen from over there to over here, fighting until they reach their goals no matter how and no matter where. And this guy, Anjem

Choudary, who was the inspirer for the killers on the London Bridge, was allowed to rant and rave and recruit on the British streets in public until

last year when they finally rounded him up and put him in jail.

ELLWOOD: We are a very open and tolerant society, and we pride ourselves and show that across the world. But the current challenge that we face

needs (needs) to say, what we have to realize that we must actually do more to enhance British values and stand up for what we believe in. And we

cannot be so tolerant when we see these activities take place.

AMANPOUR: Being the Foreign Office Minister for Africa, the Middle East, and Counter Terrorism, do you believe that this threat is mostly coming

from that part of the world, Libya, everywhere, or is it really homegrown?

ELLWOOD: It's a combination of both, of course. We're seeing ungoverned spaces in places like Somalia, where al-Shabaab has grown. This is an

indigenous extremist operation there, and Boko Haram in Nigeria. And of course in the Middle East as well.

It's far more complicated to say, it started here, it grew there, it's now in this location. Because let's take Daesh itself. It grew because the

Shiites in Iraq denied moderate Sunnis a space, a voice, a participation in what was happening in Baghdad. And many people simply went, were attracted

to a more extremist ideology just as a counter to what the Shiites were actually doing. But of course, that (inaudible) has spread further than

that, and that's why it's important that all nations look carefully at the governance, or the absence of governance, right across the world, to make

sure they cannot incubate, which is what we've seen most recently in Libya.

AMANPOUR: And Mr. Ellwood, you're running for reelection. So is the Prime Minister. Security is obviously front and center on everybody's minds

right now. Again, what do you say about the so-called embarrassing conversations that the Prime Minister said probably needs to take place?

Is it not embarrassing for the authorities here to have had Khuram Butt on a sort of a watch list, and then to have downgraded that investigation? To

have known that the chief recruiter, the main hate speaker in Britain was this leader, Anjem Choudary, of the al-Muhajiroun, and he was allowed to be

out there doing his work for more than a decade? The authorities share some blame here.

ELLWOOD: Well, I think it's too early. There's an investigation going on. Of course, there will always be lessons to learn, and a recognition that

this threat is not going away. It's a very challenging and changing world that we live in. But I make it very, very clear that the experience that

the Prime Minister has and has had as Home Secretary in working towards and strengthening our intelligence services, our policing capability, our armed

units as well, I believe it's the Prime Minister, and indeed the Conservative Party, that is best placed to make sure that Britain remains

safe, and also promotes Britain post-Brexit, and also uses our diplomatic reach to work with our international allies to actually squash extremism

across the piece.

AMANPOUR: Do you think Saudi Arabia is an issue as an ally and extremism?

ELLWOOD: Well, I've spoken to many of my counterparts over the last few days in the Gulf, and there's no doubt, all of us, as we are doing, as

you've actually implied, need to look at what more we can actually do, and that applies to Saudi Arabia as well.

We need to recognize, this is a very complicated country. There is a sizable, deeply conservative element there, and juxtaposed with a younger

generation, thousands of which have been educated abroad, and yet you have a monarchy there trying to advance and modernize, but at a pace that will

actually work. And the same applies to other of the Arab countries as well.

There is absolutely more that every single country can do. All these countries condemn terrorism, but the funding, the movement of foreign

fighters and so forth is something that we all collectively need to work harder at.

[14:10:02] AMANPOUR: Tobias Ellwood, thank you very much for joining us.

ELLWOOD: Thank you.


AMANPOUR: (Inaudible), my next guest is Mohammed Shafiq, head of the Ramadhan Foundation. We spoke about the Muslim Community's

responsibilities and its response after the Manchester attacks two weeks ago, and it turns out now that he's also had a close encounter with one of

the London Bridge Attackers.

Mohammed, thanks for joining me from Manchester. It is extraordinary that you were one of the community who actually tried to confront both Chowdary

and Khurram Butt. How did that go? What happened?

MOHAMMED SHAFIQ, CHIEF EXECUTIVE, RAMADHAN FOUNDATION: It was just after the brutal murder of British soldier Lee Rigby in May 2013. I was outside

House of Commons doing a number of TV interviews, and I caught the eye of Anjem Chowdary doing TV interviews, spewing his hatred that we've heard

tonight from what you've shown from 2007, glorifying terrorism, encouraging people to be brainwashed, and celebrating the fact that we have seen these

terrorist atrocities.

And as I went to confront him, I was approached by Khurram Butt, who called me a multad (ph), as you would know, right, you know that that term is what

ISIS used, Daesh used, if they don't like somebody and they want to get rid of them. It's a death sentence. And that was used towards me, I was

called a stooge, I was called a government stooge, and I was called an apologist for David Cameron and his government, just because of my record

speaking out against the brutal murder of Lee Rigby.

AMANPOUR: And Mohammed, as we're talking, we're showing this documentary. Khorram Butt was even in a documentary. What did you do when you heard

them and you confronted them? Did you report them?

SHAFIQ: So at the time, I reported Anjem Chowdary. I actually reported Anjem Chowdary six, seven times over I'd probably say 10, 12 years since

I've been working in this field. And many of the people in the Muslim community have been doing exactly the same thing.

The authorities, the minister Ellwood wasn't able to tell us what the authorities knew. Time and time again, these people have been reported to

the authorities and the authorities did nothing. What do they need to do? They travel around this country promoting their hatred, their vision of a

divided society, they're endorsing violence and the killing of innocent people, and they celebrate the barbaric crimes of ISIS. If that is not

enough to have the police and the authorities look into them, then I'm really, really scared about the future.

AMANPOUR: So let me ask you this, because we know that Khorram Butt was on some kind of a watch list in 2015. And then we're told by the met (ph)

that that was downgraded because they saw no evidence of an actual attack being planned.

And we know that there's still thousands of people out there who are on these lists and there obviously aren't enough police to deal with it. They

could never be. What do you think the authorities need to do? Because this is a real crunch at the moment.

SHAFIQ: Well we have a law in this country, Christiane, which is glorification of terrorism. And I believe Anjem Chowdary and his cohort

and his extremist followers meet the requirement, the criteria, for glorification of terrorism. So I have no problem as do the people in the

Muslim community if those people are charged and convicted in a court of law and then given a longer jail term.

The authorities have to really understand that the idea that the Prime Minister Theresa May, in her speech on Sunday, pointed a finger at the

Muslim community saying that we were tolerant of extremism. Actually, the reality is somewhat opposite. It's her government that have failed to

protect the police. They cut police numbers by 20,000. They cut the budget of the police by 10 percent. So if anybody wants to shine a light

about failures, I think the government needs to look a bit closer to home.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you one very practical question? The government and the authorities said they didn't -- they don't have a record of for

instance the court you told me about, that Manchester people reported the killer there. Do people know who to call if there are holes in that net?

SHAFIQ: Well, I think the facts are that Greater Manchester Police said they have no record of any calls. But the Counter Terrorism Hotline, which

is the national hotline number, which is a free phone number, haven't denied that calls were made to their hotline. So Greater Manchester Police

may have not known about the individuals, but the national hotline were aware of it.

AMANPOUR: It's clear from what you're saying that there needs to be a better sort of collection center for these calls. Mohammed Shafiq, thank

you very much for joining us.

Now, Donald Trump's Twitter barrage against the London Mayor has raised plenty of hackles here. Could he, though, be trying to deflect from some

hair raising Russia testimony by the FBI Direction, the one he fired? An exclusive interview next with America's former top Russia official,

Victoria Nuland.


[14:16:37] AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. It's fair to say that Washington and probably the world are eager to know what the fired FBI

Director will dish out on the President. James Comey testifies before Congress this Thursday, while President Trump admits that he fired him over

the FBI's Russia investigation.

Victoria Nuland was the top American diplomat for Europe and Russia under President Obama. She joins me now from Washington. This is her first

interview since leaving office, so we're very pleased to welcome you.

First, can I ask you, are you surprised by the kind of tweet diplomacy that the President is engaged in, whether it's about Qatar, whether it's about

the Mayor of London, whether it's about the ongoing Russia investigation?

VICTORIA NULAND, FORMER U.S. ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: Well we all know that President Trump is fond of tweeting. He thinks that that's the

best way to convey his views directly. I think what's concerning is that when these tweets are not in a positive, uplifting spirit, and particularly

in the case of London, when you have an ally who's just been attacked, to rub salt in that wound just strikes me as not helpful to our larger goal of

beating terrorism.

AMANPOUR: And what happens when the diplomacy is really affected (ph)? I mean let's face it. We know that a lot of positions haven't been filled.

Ambassadors all over the world, their embassies simply don't have ambassadors. And charge's are in charge. We have had at least three

American ambassadorial types who have counted the President in tweets recently. There's a resignation in China over the climate pull out, the

charge in London actually defended the Mayor, and from Qatar, before this latest rupture, had to deal -- had to put out a tweet sort of contradicting

the administration. What does this mean for America on the world stage as it tries to do the business of state craft?

NULAND: Well I think it's very difficult for America's people on the ground to know where we're going when we're not having yet an orderly

process in Washington to formulate policy. And even when there is an orderly process in Washington, sometimes the President changes his mind by

tweet. So you can see my former colleagues getting caught off guard when positions change quickly.

The world counts on America being consistent, America being clear, America standing for stability and peace and values. So I would hope that going

forward, the administration would find a way to use its people on the ground to better stay connected to Washington and to convey those values.

AMANPOUR: Do you think the world, whether they're adversaries or allies, are now factoring in the Trump tweet effect, or just the Trump effect? Do

you think that they are -- I mean, what kind of a take do you think they have on the only superpower in the world today?

NULAND: Well I think like American citizens, people around the world are trying to divine what President Trump's approach is going to be, both to

individual conflicts, but more importantly to the larger role of U.S. global leadership, which has kept us safe, kept us prosperous, for more

than 70 years.

[14:19:57] So I think people are hoping that things settle down, that more of the administration fills out, because it's also the case that when you

only have five or six people making policy, they tend to veer from crisis to crisis. And you need folks at that middle level, and ambassadors to be

gardening these relationships, as George Schultz (ph) used to say.

AMANPOUR: Let me put to you a sound bite from President Putin. He is obviously under the spotlight because of the alleged interference in the

American elections. This is about hacking. Listen to what he said.


VLADIMIR PUTIN, PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA (through translators): Hackers are free people, just like artists. They wake up in a good mood and paint

things. Same with hackers. They woke up today, read something about the state to state relations, that they are patriotic, they contributed in a

way they think is right.


AMANPOUR: I mean, this is an extraordinary situation. What do you make of that? Again, dismissing the idea that Russia hacked.

NULAND: Well I think there are two things that are interesting here. There's no doubt in my mind, based on the information that I saw when I was

still in government, and it's come out since, that the hacking of the U.S. election was an intentional operation by Russian intelligence services at

President Putin's direction.

It's interesting that President Putin started by denying any Russian involvement, and now he's talking about patriotic hackers, guys who might

have got up in the morning and decided to do his bidding, which is the same technique that he used when he dealt with the Ukraine crisis. He initially

said that Russia wasn't involved at all in (inaudible) and then later said, oh, they might be patriotic guys who decided to take matters into their own

hands. So he's looking to take a little credit without taking responsibility.

AMANPOUR: I'd like to put another bit of a sound bit to you. This is between our Matthew Chance in Russia, and the banker who is close to

Vladimir Putin, Sergey Gorkov, head of the Russian VEB Bank. And of course, the latest blockbuster is really involving Jared Kushner and the

fact that he apparently is a person of interest and had apparently close ties to this VEB Bank. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Quick question. What did you really speak to Jared Kushner about in New York when you met him in December? Did you talk about

sanctions? Excuse me.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well what was discussed? The White House says it was a diplomatic meeting, that Kushner met you as part of the transition team.

Your bank says it was a business meeting.

GORKOV: Thank you so much.


AMANPOUR: What do you know about Gorkov and the VEB Bank?

NULAND: Well the VEB Bank, in soviet times, was the Soviet Union's main bank for external trade. It's still government controlled, government

managed, and it's under U.S. and European sanctions in response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the Russian pressure on Ukraine. So if

Gorkov did indeed have a conversation with Jared Kushner, the question is, what was it about? Was it about business relations? Was it about trying

to get sanctions lifted so Vnesheconom could get back into business in the United States? I hope we get to the bottom of that.

AMANPOUR: Do you think we're going to get to the bottom of it with the Comey testimony? What are you expecting? Is this going to be blockbuster

stuff, or not?

NULAND: I think we don't know. A lot of what Director Comey knows is classified. So in an open hearing, it may be difficult. I think the first

thing will be to confirm whether the conversations that are alleged between him and President Trump about the investigation actually happened.

But equally important is the investigation that Mr. Mueller is doing. And this will be, we hope, a very thorough investigation of exactly what

happened and who was involved, so that we can learn from it, and so that we can deter this kind of Russian activity in the future.

AMANPOUR: Victoria Nuland, former Assistant Secretary of State, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

NULAND: Thank you, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: And when we come back, we remember an Attorney General who fought for civil rights and social justice. Imagine a world 48 years since

Bobby Kennedy's assassination, after this.


[14:26:26] AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, we imagine a world robbed of some very special leadership. Now John F. Kennedy was the war hero, the

president, the glamorous global icon. But his younger brother Bobby was a social conscience who ran for president himself in 1968, and 49 years ago

today was himself assassinated as well, just after winning the California primary.

On the campaign trail, he had seen appalling poverty in Appalachia, and promised to address it. He had struggled to bring civil rights, only to

have to break the news of Martin Luther King's assassination on another campaign stop. Who tried to comfort and calm a crowd of African-Americans,

and had helped prevent riots that dreadful night.

Just two months later, Ted Kennedy would be eulogizing yet another older brother. This time, at Bobby's funeral.


TED KENNEDY, BROTHER OF BOBBY KENNEDY: Beyond what he was in life. To be remembered simply as a good and decent man who saw wrong and tried to right

it, saw suffering and tried to heal it, saw war and tried to stop it.


AMANPOUR: And when it came to bravery, Bobby Kennedy always used to say, it is moral courage that counts the most in life.

That's it for our program tonight. Remember, you can always listen to our podcast, see us online at, and follow me on Facebook and

Twitter. Thanks for watching, and goodbye, from London.