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President Trump on Scalise's Condition: He's in Some Trouble; Hung Jury in Bill Cosby Case & Judge Says Try Again. Aired 11:30-12p ET
Aired June 15, 2017 - 11:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:30:00] DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And one of the parts of the American dream is we are going to come down very, very hard, and we already have. You've seen what's going on, on the border, on this massive drug problem that we have in the United States, and frankly, that other countries have also. And we're coming down very, very hard on it. And if we don't, it's called shame on us.
So, everybody that's worked so hard on this program and everybody in this room, including the reporters, God bless you, God bless America, and let's go out and let's do a really terrific job with the apprentice program.
Thank you very much.
TRUMP: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, you've been listening right there to President Trump. He's speaking at a -- he's signing an executive order right now regarding federal apprenticeships.
But most importantly, immediately, importantly, right now, at the very top of his remarks, he gave an update and spoke about when he went to the hospital last night to meet with Congressman Steve Scalise and his condition, and he gave an update, it appears, on Steve Scalise's condition, saying, giving the appearance, that he's worse off than maybe folks had thought.
I think we have that sound at the very top. Let's play it for you once again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Before beginning today, I'd like to take a moment to again send our thoughts and prayers to my friend and the friend of most of us in this room, Steve Scalise, and his great family, as he continues his very brave fight. It's been much more difficult than people even thought at the time. It's been -- he's in some trouble. He's a great fighter and he's going to be OK, we hope.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BOLDUAN: All right, we hear right there, he's in some trouble and he's going to be OK, we hope.
Right now, joining me on the phone is CNN's chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
Sanjay, what do we know? What is the latest that we know about Steve Scalise's condition and what he's been through?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Well, what we've heard from the hospital, Kate, is that he is in critical condition. And these terms that are used a lot, Kate, critical, fair, these are not all uniform terms. This particular hospital, Medstar, I witnessed how they define these terms, and critical basically means that vital signs, blood pressure and heart rate are not stable, they're still changing, and it's usually an indication that there could be some ongoing concerns about bleeding, and most likely that's what the operations that he had yesterday were designed to do, to try and address that bleeding. It can take several operations sometimes to try and stop that bleeding, so it's sort of a combination of things -- stopping the bleeding, and at the same time, providing blood, blood transfusions. This could be a significant injury. With a rifle injury to that particular area of the body, there are lots of blood vessels, and the blood vessels can be difficult to repair, so I don't know specifically what he was referring to.
But what I can tell you is that, as you remember, Kate, at the scene yesterday, you know, he -- the congressman was able to drag himself but was bleeding profusely. He was able to have a conversation with his wife. But during the transport time, between the field and the hospital, which is five to 10 minutes by helicopter, he went from being described as in stable condition to being in critical condition. So we know during that time there was a deterioration of his condition that was very significant that sent him to the operating room, and that was sort of an indication that the bleeding was profound and that several operations were likely going to be necessary to stop it.
BOLDUAN: Absolutely. And the latest we know is he remains in critical condition. The president right there saying he is in some trouble.
Sanjay, thank you so much for jumping on the phone.
Mark, you're here with me still. You've been sitting there listening to this with me.
Not only did the president say that he's in some trouble, but he also spoke to kind of the climate, and said that in some way, Steve may have, and obviously, a way that no one would ever, ever want or desire or ask anyone to bring about some unity in this country that has been so divided for so very long.
MARK PRESTON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah. You know, it's amazing that in a time of sorrow right now, we're seeing such a tragic event perhaps bring together Democrats and Republicans. I mean, really, the basis of our political system, right, is the ability for us not to agree on issues. The question is, you know, how and what level do you take that to? And what we've seen --
BOLDUAN: How does it stick?
[11:34:47] PRESTON: Well, how does the unity stick, in and of itself, is a very difficult question, because the divide right now between Democrats and Republicans on some major issues is so wide, but it's not just so much the divide between the folks who work in the building behind us. As you say, it's really the divide out across the nation where there's so much anger, pent-up anger about a lot of different things that have really put people in this position. And that's why we think, or at least that's why we're seeing, I think, this turmoil right now and this anger, and really, us looking towards this tragedy to help heal, which is kind of an interesting --
BOLDUAN: Yeah, and interesting that the president notes -- and the president noting that today in his remarks.
Our thoughts -- again, we don't know exactly if the president was giving us a change in status of Steve Scalise. It is unclear, of course.
But we continue to stay on the breaking news that we've been following on the Congressman's condition.
Sorry, I'm just getting a cue in from the control room.
I want to get over now, I believe we have more breaking news at this very moment.
I want to go to CNN's national correspondent, Brynn Gingras.
Brynn, bring me up to speed.
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Kate, we've just learned that at this point, the jury in the Cosby trial is deadlocked. They have informed the judge just moments ago, "We cannot come to unanimous consensus on any of the counts." Remember, they're considering three counts of indecent aggravated assault in the 2004 incident with Andrea Constand and Bill Cosby. The judge has told that jury that they need to come to a consensus, has now ordered them back into the deliberations room, which is where they're going to continue discussing this case.
Remember, this is a jury that has worked over three hours together in the past days asking many questions, six, to be exact, on the nature of these charges, questions concerning exactly what happened in that case in, I'm sorry, 2005. And so, certainly right now, it appears they have not been able to come to an agreement.
Again, though, the judge telling them that they need to. They're going to deliberate until 9:00 tonight, we're told by the judge and our reporters that are in the courtroom, and reassess this later this evening. But for now, they're going to continue deliberating -- Kate?
BOLDUAN: One of the things that's been playing out during this deliberation, Brynn, is the jury, as often does, comes back to the judge with questions. And I think -- and I may have lost count at this point -- but I think the last count was they had come back with six questions to the judge. When they came back to the judge this time and said we are deadlocked, did they have any questions or did he just say give it another go, guys?
GINGRAS: No, and that's really it. They came back with a note saying to the judge that we can't come to a consensus. They didn't actually have a question.
And you're right, Kate, there were six questions. A lot of those questions were really just readback of testimonies that have happened in this case over the last week of this trial. Certainly, it's unclear -- we never know what's in these jurors' minds -- of what they can't sort of agree on at this point, but a lot, again, has been about the testimony of what happened that day, that incident, the "he said/she said" in that 2005 incident in Bill Cosby's home.
But again, they have to come to a consensus, the judge telling them that they have until 9:00 tonight and then they'll have to reassess what happens from there -- Kate?
BOLDUAN: And just some perspective for everybody, Brynn, and add to this -- this is a jury of seven men and five women. And this has been one of those unusual situations that no jury really wants to go through, which is they've been sequestered in a hotel for the duration of the trial. So, this is -- when they -- this is a jury that, you know, everyone is motivated to come to a conclusion and to reach a verdict. But this is a jury that has been sequestered, their lives have been put on hold while they've been considering this very, very high-profile decision.
GINGRAS: Absolutely, Kate. And like you said, yeah, they have not been able to go home. They are going back to hotels and they are putting in long days. And we say 30-plus hours over four days. They are eating through their lunches, they are eating through their dinners. They are asking for these questions going right into the courtroom and listening to the answers or the readback of the testimony to all their questions. So, they're certainly working hard at this. So, when they came to this deadlocked decision, it certainly seems like there is something that is keeping them from agreeing. But again, it is their duty to find some sort of verdict in this, and the judge is asking them to continue those deliberations at this point.
BOLDUAN: This is really remarkable how this is played out.
Brynn, stand by. Thank you for bringing us this breaking news.
Let me bring in Paul Callan.
Paul, you have been following this. You've been very helpful in helping all of us understand the trial and the many machinations as things have been playing out. Give me your reaction to this. PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALHYST: Well, I've seen this coming over the
last couple of days, Kate. It looks to me like you have a holdout juror, a single holdout juror, or maybe a small group of holdout jurors, holding it as against the majority, who maybe have come to a different conclusion about guilt or innocence. And what we're hearing now is a report of a deadlocked jury. That's followed by what is traditionally called the dynamite charge, which is given by the judge to the jury, essentially saying, you have an obligation to go back, to deliberate in good faith and to try to reach a decision, because you're better equipped than any other jury will be and you might as well get the job done. So, they take one last shot at getting them to come to an agreement, and then we're likely to see a mistrial if the jury can't reach a conclusion after the dynamite charge.
[11:40:34] BOLDUAN: All right, Paul, stand by for me.
Michael Zeldin is here.
Michael, drastically changing directions from what we would be talking about, but do you see this -- how often does a jury, when a judge says go back and give it another go, do they figure it out, or do you think this is more likely to be a mistrial than not?
MICHAEL ZELDIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I agree with Paul, it's probably like a split that's like 10-2, 11-1, 9-3, and they just can't get the last three to join with the majority.
The so-called Allen charge, what Paul called the dynamite charge, that says, look, guys, nobody can do this better than you, as Paul said, and please do it one more time. Often, though, it doesn't get you there. When you are sequestered and you have been there one day, two days, three days, and you just can't make progress, it means that somebody is just not cooperating with the majority, and it's going to end up in a mistrial.
BOLDUAN: And, Paul, one of the things you and I have been discussing about this is the strategy on Bill Cosby's side, they called only one witness, which was actually recalling a witness who had already taken the stand, did not put Bill Cosby on the stand, and they wrapped up in one day.
CALLAN: Yes, they did. And obviously, they perceived a very weak prosecution case presented, and they decided to counter with literally a six-minute defense. But of course, they were also confronted with an extremely difficult situation if they put Bill Cosby on the stand. He could be cross examined extensively and some of these problematic charges made by so many other women might have come to light. And he also would have a hard time explaining his encounter with Constand, given the prior deposition in the case. So, I think, wisely, the defense attorney said, you know something, the case didn't go in very strong, so the prosecution, we're not really going to put in a defense. And I wanted to add to what Michael said. You know, following what this means when a jury says that they're deadlocked, it's a really tough thing for lawyers because we've all seen it play out in different ways. I can tell you, I have also seen juries come back like within an hour
after getting the so-called Allen or dynamite charge, with a verdict. So, the opposite can happen. That can be the one thing that gets that recalcitrant juror or group of jurors to say you know something, maybe I should take a second look at my thoughts here, and you get a quick verdict then. So, it will be sort of a tense couple of hours now to come as people wonder whether we're going to have a verdict or not.
One high-profile attorney to help me out through this to another.
Mark Geragos jumping on the line now.
Mark, what's your take on this?
MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST (voice-over): That's a very good question. You never know until you actually see them come in and see what they have to say.
BOLDUAN: But when you're looking at a deadlocked jury right now, this Allen charge, telling them to go back and give it another go, what's your take? Do you think it's more likely they come back and say we couldn't get there, or do you think that after this jury of seven men and five women who have been bussed in from a neighboring county, and they've been sequestered for the last of this trial -- do you think they're going to get this figured out?
GERAGOS: Well, my experience is that, generally, the Allen charge, when it's been this long, will not dynamite the jury. That's what we nickname it is the dynamite charge. Because people are already entrenched. And you know, it's outlawed in many states, although it's still viable in the federal system. And I think, my personal opinion is it's somewhat coercive. But given the number of hours, and given the fact that it's a sequestered jury, and as you said, given the fact they're 300 miles from home, and this judge has been very attuned to the fact that he doesn't want to keep them there any longer or inconvenience them any more than he has to.
GERAGOS: I think a lot of it has to -- depends on exactly the split and who's leading the charge, so to speak.
[11:44:54] BOLDUAN: And that, of course, is the huge question. All of the focus right now is on the makeup of that jury, seven men and five women, and where that split is and where the divide is.
We're showing you a graphic right now of the makeup, Mark, and you might not be able to see it. Four white women, one black women, six white men and one black man. You never know what is in their minds and what is holding them up.
If you had to guess, not who is -- where the line falls within the jury, but what issue is dividing them, what do you think it is? GERAGOS: Well, you know, I think that -- and I think I've been on CNN
saying this for a while -- that when they selected the jury, given the makeup, both gender and race, and given the quality of the evidence, or lack of quality, depending on your viewpoint, that it's going to break down racial and gender lines, and that's what I've always said. I've always thought it would be a hung jury. I've said it since day one. And my guess is that after 30 hours of deliberation that you're not going to necessarily change anybody's mind. And I don't think, even if he sends them back and even if they sit there until the end of today, you know, he's not going to keep them through the weekend. So, if they're deadlocked and if they haven't rolled anybody yet -- and part of what the reading of the tea leaves is, is people will be looking who are there in the courtroom at which jurors are talking to who, which jurors are pairing off or, you know, three or four at a time, and trying to figure out. If it's one person, the number of the split -- and I don't think it's been reported. Has anybody reported the numbers?
BOLDUAN: Not yet, nope.
GERAGOS: OK. If it's 11-1, there is a higher degree of likelihood that the one gets rolled. But if there's more than one, my experience has been that, generally, they're entrenched and they're not moving. As long as there's a bonding going on. And after this kind of period of time, I'd almost guarantee there would be. I don't think that it's likely that they'll be able to roll, that the majority's going to roll the minority.
Mark, stay with me --
GERAGOS: You know, one of the things --
BOLDUAN: Go ahead, Mark.
GERAGOS: I was going to say, one of the things that's interesting to me and one of the reasons that I personally find the Allen charge so offensive is there's nothing wrong with -- and the U.S. Supreme Court has stated it -- there is nothing wrong with a hung jury. A hung jury is just as permissive an outcome as a guilty or a not guilty verdict. In fact, a hung jury has the same -- I mean, it speaks to the quality, if you will, of the evidence that the prosecution's putting on. If a jury is hung, that's what it is.
But remember, at the same time, we just finished a trial in Los Angeles, we, meaning the county of Los Angeles, the federal court there, where the sheriff, Lee Baca, was at a hung jury, 11-1, for acquittal, and they retried him the next month and convicted him. So, it was a completely different situation the second time around. So, you know, sometimes --
BOLDUAN: And that gets me actually to a question that I have.
Let me bring Paul Callan back into the conversation.
Paul, are you still with me?
CALLAN: Yes, still with you, yep.
BOLDUAN: So, if this is a hung jury, they come back at 9:00 tonight and they can't get anywhere, what happens next? Is this over?
CALLAN: Oh, no, it's far from. It's why I would have to disagree with mark on why we should try to encourage juries to reach a conclusion. If there's a hung jury, the prosecutor's going to look at the case, and he will either decide to dismiss it, or he may decide, if the split was favorable to him, i.e., more voting for a conviction than acquittal, to retry the case. And everybody is put through the agony of a second trial. And of course, these trials involving claims of sexual assault and sexual harassment are very painful for all parties concerned. And plus, this is a high-profile case with, you know, a lot of costs to the county involved. Remember, they had to pick a jury from a different county to try the case.
CALLAN: It has not been an easy thing trying this case. So, I think --
BOLDUAN: Well, and, Paul --
CALLAN: We want a verdict, if we can get one. So, without prejudicing anybody. And here, I think what's surprising to me -- this jury's been out for an awful long time for such a short trial, and this is the first time now they've come back reporting a deadlock. They've had a lot of readbacks. I've been watching the readbacks very, very carefully. And when you see that, I and the majority then says you want to read back and we'll get you the testimony. See? Doesn't that prove our position? Whatever it is for acquittal or conviction. And now this is only the first time they're coming in reporting dead lock. A lot of these cases they report deadlock more than one occasion because the judge keeps sending them back out to reach a conclusion.
I'm not ruling out a verdict yet. We could still get a verdict. We could have a verdict today, as a matter of fact. If the Allen charge causes the holdout juror or jurors to reconsider and reassess their position.
[11:50:41] BOLDUAN: Michael Zeldin is still here with me.
What happens in the interim? We all sit and wait. What is Bill Cosby's team doing? What is the prosecutor doing at this moment?
ZELDIN: Biting their fingernails. There's really not much you can do. The judge will instruct the jury. They'll send them back. The defense will argue before an Allen charge is given don't give it as mark is saying. Please don't give it. They like the notion of a mistrial thinking that happens the state won't bring charges against where the prosecution is saying we want an Allen charge, we want them to reach a verdict, we sort of are concerned perhaps in a celebrity case that you've got a juror or two are saying jeez, I just can't convict Bill Cosby. He made me laugh so many years. This is an old case. And the complainant's testimony didn't go in cleanly. They wanted to get other witnesses, other victims who could say the same thing and the judge wouldn't allow it. So it's complicated in the minds of each lawyer, what do they want out of this. The prosecution wants that charge given. The defense doesn't want it given. Once it's given, they wait and see. As Paul said, it really depends on the split.
BOLDUAN: Hold on. Maybe we'll get some more information about that right now.
Let's go to CNN correspondent, Jean Casarez. She's been in the courtroom throughout the trial. She just left the courtroom and is joining me now.
Jean, give me some perspective. What do you know?
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORERSPONDENT: I watched the jury file in. The faces of these jurors I saw seriousness. I saw defeat in a sense. There was one male juror that had his hands folded. But the judge then said as you've been relating about the duty that they have to continue deliberating. And I also heard when they filed out the judge say to the attorneys I'm not going to set a time limit here. So they're back there right now. And I've seen many things in my experience. Sometimes very quickly they say they cannot reach a verdict. Many times, they continue on and they reach a verdict. So I think anything is possible right here. But the jurors did not look happy.
I did see, when I first walked into the courtroom, the attorneys came in from the judge's chamber and I saw the lead attorney for Bill Cosby, go over to him in the courtroom. He sat down in the chair next to Bill Cosby, which I've never seen him do. Remember, this is before the jury came in. He was talking to Bill Cosby in his ear and he patted his back. And they were all just very serious when they finished that conversation. Bill Cosby didn't have a smile on his face, as he normally does. Co-counsel for the defense, also very serious.
This is a serious moment. Big things are at stake here. If the jury cannot reach a unanimous verdict on all the charges, then the question will be in the minds of the attorneys do we go forward and try this again? The prosecution can or they cannot. It is their choice, along with I'm sure they will talk to the alleged victim here, Andrea Constand, and get her thoughts on this.
BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Did you see -- was Andrea Constand in the courtroom as well?
CASAREZ: I was in the courtroom, yes. BOLDUAN: No. Was --
CASAREZ: I was watching jurors.
BOLDUAN: Was Andrea Constand in the courtroom today?
CASAREZ: She was in -- yes. Andrea Constand was in the courtroom. Yes, she was. She has no emotion. She sits there stoically looking ahead. It is no emotion. She is focused. She is present. She is serious. But she does not emit externally any emotions that she has.
[11:54:23] BOLDUAN: All right, we're following this breaking news, the Cosby jury deadlocked. The judge sending them back in to ask them to give it another go. Huge news coming out of this high-profile celebrity trial.
Our CNN special coverage will continue right after this.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Welcome to "Inside Politics." I'm John King. Thanks for sharing your time with us.
We're live today outside the United States capitol where lawmakers are worried about the condition of a colleague, and also worried about their safety and the state of political discourse here in Washington and across the country.
The number-three Republican, Steve Scalise, is in surgery again as we speak, according to a source, the third time on the operating table since being shot during an ambush at a Republican baseball team practice yesterday morning.
Vice President Mike Pence visited his former colleague this morning at the hospital. That, after President Trump and the first lady stopped by last night, bringing flowers for the congressman's wife.
Today, at the top of a White House event, the president showed his concern for the congressman who he said is in worse condition than many realized, and he voiced hope for unity in the wake of this horrible shooting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I'd like to take a moment to again send our thoughts and prayers to my friend and the friend of most of us in this room, Steve Scalise, and his great family as he continues his very brave fight. It's been much more difficult than people even thought at the time. It's been -- he's in some trouble.