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Senate GOP Delays Health Care Vote; Global Cyberattack; Attacking Their Own. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired June 28, 2017 - 07:30   ET


[07:33:25] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The other side is saying all sorts of things before they even knew what the bill was. This will be great if we get it done. And if we don't get it done it's just going to be something that we're not going to like, and that's OK and I understand that very well.


CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: President Trump kind of warning Republican senators pass a health care bill or live with Obamacare. So what changes need to be made to the bill to win over senators who are against it? Let's get after it.

We've got Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin. He was at that meeting with President Trump. He opposes the current Senate bill.

Senator, always a pleasure to have you on NEW DAY. Thank you for taking the opportunity. So what do you need to see in this bill and what do you think the chance is, right now, that you can get there?

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI), CHAIRMAN, HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS COMMITTEE: Well, Chris, again, let me first correct the record. I have never said I oppose the Senate bill and I was going to vote no. I was a very hard no on taking it up and voting this week because we simply didn't have the --


JOHNSON: -- we didn't have the information. Now we're starting to get the information.

Let me break some news here. You know, the headline figure that the first year 15 million Americans would lose coverage, that's based on a March 2016 baseline a year and three months old. The CBO actually has a January 2017 baseline and one of the components -- the individual non-group group market -- there's no difference.

According to the CBO, seven million of the 15 million were out of that individual market. They were projecting 26 million people would have coverage under the new baselines -- 18 million -- or 19 million people are going to have it, which is the exact same projection under the Senate bill so there would be no people if you actually compare this against a more up-to-date baseline that will lose coverage. That is big news in terms of the debate.

[07:35:10] Plus, the Senate bill with the CBO score literally saves another $200 billion in terms of spending -- or deficit reduction. That $200 billion would give us, I think, maneuvering room to find the votes.

And let me throw one last little fact at you. I keep hearing people talk about we're slashing Medicaid. In 2008, we spent $200 billion on Medicaid. This year we'll spend close to $400 billion. We've doubled it.

What Republicans are trying to do -- and again, all the people are saying we want to -- our goal is to take people off coverage. No, we want premiums to come down so more Americans can afford coverage so the American taxpayer would have to spend less in subsidies. We want to save Medicaid and we want to stop mortgaging our children's future. That's what we're trying to accomplish but the Democrats and Obamacare left us a big mess. It's not easy to fix.

CUOMO: Well, the argument is you're not getting it done. That this bill doesn't bring premiums down in any realistic way and any way you want to term the reduction in funds to Medicaid -- and again, it's a political judgment -- but a practical reality will be less money in the system, less money to the states, less of a match, less means. You're going to have less people covered.

JOHNSON: Now listen, let's --

CUOMO: You hear that from governors from both parties all over this country.

JOHNSON: Less means actually spending less year-over-year and in this projection there's only one year where spending on Medicaid goes down a little bit and then it keeps, you know, progressing upwards. So again, we brought it in a --

CUOMO: Right, but costs are going up. You're not dealing with it in a vacuum, Senator. I know you're a businessman and you get the economic principles here well, but --

JOHNSON: Let's talk about -- let's talk about the premium --

CUOMO: -- costs are going up.

JOHNSON: Let's talk about the premium projections. The CBO says the first year premiums, according to the -- compared to their baseline would be higher -- 20 percent higher. Again, that's, you know, largely because we give people the freedom to choose whether or not they want to buy this grossly expensive Obamacare now and they choose not to do so.

But next year it's 10 percent above baseline, which means the second year, already premiums are coming down by the third year. Premiums are 30 percent below the baseline and that's just by removing primarily one of those market reforms that's causing all that reduction in premiums, and that's what I've been arguing. Get rid of all the market reforms. Give Americans the freedom and

insurance companies to design products that people can afford that suit their needs and we won't be spending so much money on subsidies and people will have -- in terms of net effect --

CUOMO: All right.

JOHNSON: -- in terms of premiums, they won't be harmed.

CUOMO: But two things on that --

JOHNSON: So, we need information and the debate on this thing has been completely disregarded using incorrect information.

CUOMO: Well, two things about that. Well, first of all, one thing. I know you're not suggesting that I'm using misleading information, right?

JOHNSON: No, no, no.

CUOMO: You let me know what I'm saying that's inaccurate.

JOHNSON: No, sir. What I'm saying is --

CUOMO: This whole fake thing needs to end and it needs to end right now.

JOHNSON: Chris --

CUOMO: Just tell me what I'm getting wrong or we'll deal with the numbers as the CBO puts them out.

JOHNSON: I'm not -- I'm not -- I'm not accusing you. I'm talking about the fact people don't understand the 22 million and it was a wrong baseline. And then the way the premiums are reported you have to really understand the wayeconomists take a look at this and what's really happened.

CUOMO: No, I get it, but I'm trying to keep in practical -- in practical concepts --

JOHNSON: This is not easy.

CUOMO: -- and I know you're a businessman --

JOHNSON: I understand.

CUOMO: -- and I know where your head is on this, and I know you're in good faith which is why I invite you on the show so often. I want your perspective on this.

But on the premium side, let's just take a look at that for a second because that's what you were talking about, OK? This is from the CBO score, just simple red and green arrows. I don't know if you can see it where you are but, you know, they go up the first couple of years and then they start going down. There is a fundamental principle here, leaving the numbers to the side. You want to buy the insurance that just you need at that time, and if you're young you want really nothing as long as you can because you're healthy, thank God.

That's all fine but you know that's not how insurance works. And if you don't pool coverage and you don't have people -- even if they don't need something specifically -- adding their risk into that pool, it is really unaffordable for those who do need it. There is a little bit of a shared sacrifice principle for insurance costs to work.

JOHNSON: And the good news is you can actually pool those high-risk -- those high-cost condition patients --

CUOMO: And that's expensive.

JOHNSON: -- in that high-risk pool. No, I don't --

CUOMO: That's expensive.

JOHNSON: But you -- but you can do it without driving up premiums on the individual market.

I wrote an article in "The New York Times" that ran on --

CUOMO: But only for some people.

JOHNSON: Chris, let me finish.

CUOMO: Go ahead, Senator, go ahead.

JOHNSON: Let me finish.

CUOMO: Go ahead.

JOHNSON: Bill Clinton was talking about these people that are busting at working 16 (sic) hours --


JOHNSON: -- a week, winding up with premiums doubled -- I'll add tripled in some cases -- and their coverage cut in half. Those are the forgotten men and women. Those are the people we're trying to bring premiums down and you can do that -- you can cover people with preexisting conditions without collapsing insurance markets.

Look at the main example where they had guaranteed issue. It drove their premiums up, I think, by double, then they instituted an invisible high-risk pool and those premiums were pretty well cut in half according to one study. So the bottom line is we can do this but we need the information.

[07:40:00] The problem in Washington, D.C. is we talk policy absent and void of information. And that was my problem with the process, is it started with all these policy arguments void of any information. We finally have some information, one CBO score. I think this is going to give us an awful lot of latitude to get the votes.

And then, Chris, I wish we were doing this on a bipartisan basis. I think it was a mistake, right away, saying we're going to do this partisan. That's where we're at. The thing we're going to have to do is we'll do our partisan bill, Democrats do theirs -- we're not going to fix all these problems - and then maybe everybody will sit down and let's, long-term, fix the health care system. Let's start controlling health care costs.

But you don't do that with a single-payer system, you do that by reinjecting consumer-driven, free market competition. That's what restrains cost. It improves quality and customer service. I know. I come from the private sector. The free market system is a marvel that works in other areas of the economy. We need to reinject it into our health care system.

CUOMO: All right. Senator Johnson, I always appreciate you coming on with your perspective. It would be great to have more of these debates. It would be great for them to be bipartisan. We always --

JOHNSON: Chris, what you --

CUOMO: -- invite you to do that here on NEW DAY.

JOHNSON: So bring me in the studio. I'll have my charts. When I get the information we'll lay this out so it's as understandable as possible because it's really hard talking numbers just standing in front of a camera.

CUOMO: That is a guarantee.


CUOMO: You tell me when you want to do it. We'll do it three times.

JOHNSON: All right.

CUOMO: Be well, Senator and enjoy the break.

JOHNSON: Will do.

CUOMO: Clarissa --

CLARISSA WARD, CNN ANCHOR: A massive paralyzing cyberattack hitting businesses around the world. Why there are concerns it may not be over just yet. We'll tell you about it -- that's next.


[07:45:15] WARD: A global cyberattack crippling businesses around the world. The hacks have hit Ukrainian ministries, banks, and metro systems, and scarily, the Chernobyl nuclear plant. The Ransomware attacks then spread to firms in Russia, the U.K., and the U.S. There are many concerns that businesses still have not secured their networks from these aggressive hackers. This is not the first time we've seen these types of hacks, Chris. CUOMO: No, and there is a real question as to whether or not they can secure their systems enough from hackers.

Anyway, how about a little sports news? The Florida Gators winning the college baseball World Series. This is the first time in school history they've pulled that off.

Coy Wire has more in the Bleacher Report. Big feather in the cap.

COY WIRE, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. Florida, now just the fourth school in history to have won titles in baseball, football, and men's basketball, so the Gators, they're celebrating.


But there are two LSU fans that need to be celebrating as well. During Monday's game, Dr. Jerry Poche, father of LSU pitcher Jared Poche, along with another LSU guy, saved an elderly Florida fan. Right, his heart had stopped. But they revived him and performed CPR until paramedics arrived.

As far as this game, the score was close nearly the entire time but the Gators scored four runs in the eighth inning to put it out of reach. The Gators win six to one, sweeping the series and winning their first title in their 103-year history.

The World Series champion Chicago Cubs making a second visit to the White House today as they're in town to play the Nationals. Manager Joe Maddon says it's voluntary for players and that it has a lot to do with the fact that the Ricketts family, owners of the Cubs, have strong ties to Capitol Hill.

Chairman Tom Ricketts, who donated to Donald Trump's campaign, said he thinks the president thought it'd be fun to have an unofficial visit with the team. There will be no media there. The Cubs visited Chicago native President Obama in January.

And Clarissa, in big sports news in the Big Apple there are multiple reports that Knicks owner JamesDolan could announce this morning that Phil Jackson is out as president of the Knicks. CNN hasn't been able to confirm this report but something to keep an eye on, Clarissa.

WARD: We certainly will. Thank you, Coy.

So, why would Republicans think about attacking one of their own for opposing the health care bill? Well, one pro-Trump group was set to go after the Senate's most vulnerable GOP member. We'll discuss that next.


[07:51:15] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R), MAINE: This president is the first president in our history who has had neither political nor military experience and, thus, it has been a challenge to him to learn how to interact with Congress and how to push his agenda forward.


CUOMO: Maine Senator Susan Collins trying to gently make a point that the president has a challenge when it comes to making things happen in Washington, D.C. So how is that affecting the overall battle and how might it change going forward?

Let's discuss. We've got David Frum, senior editor at "The Atlantic," and Matt Schlapp, former political director for George W. Bush and chairman of the American Conservative Union. Gentlemen, thank you for being here.


CUOMO: David Frum, the president tweeting this morning that the media has it wrong that he's not deeply involved. That he knows health care well and that he just wants the United States to win. Nobody questions that last proposition. Hopefully, every president wants the United States to win.

But do you believe that that is a true appraisal, what the president said, or is it much more what Susan Collins was suggesting, which is this is him out of his depth and nobody is saying that he's driving this process?

DAVID FRUM, SENIOR EDITOR, THE ATLANTIC: Look, generally, compliments are more convincing when they come from other people rather than from yourself. But in this case, I don't think the problem is merely Donald Trump's lack of knowledge or understanding of the health care issue.

Republicans were trying to do something that was just too hard. They were doing something too ideological. This one, I think, really is worn less by the president and more by the House and Senate leadership. You do not take benefits away from tens of millions of people. I wrote that in 2010, I wrote that again when the bill failed in the House, and I'll be writing it again through this year.

The Republican approach needs to focus on the things that are most difficult for Republicans in the Affordable Care Act, especially its excessively redistributing of financing, its burden on the healthier part of the insured population, and fix those problems without -- but accept that the guarantee of near-universal health coverage is part of American life. Whether you think it was a good idea to extend it or not, you cannot now take it away seven years later.

CUOMO: Matt?

SCHLAPP: Wellunfortunately, David, Republicans ran for office in four elections saying that Obamacare should be repealed. They eventually amended that to say it should be repealed and replaced. And Republicans and conservatives are going to feel awfully hoodwinked if -- we heard from Republicans for seven years as they traveled around the country all the deficiencies in Obamacare. How it needed to be repealed, pulled out by its roots.

And then all of a sudden when they get the majority in the House and Senate -- when the White House -- all of a sudden there's some backtracking from people like Senator Collins saying well, maybe not repeal it so much. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. They'll be hell to pay if they don't pass some version of Republican health care reform.

CUOMO: Matt, I've got a question for you. Why --

FRUM: There will be -- there will be more --

CUOMO: Let me just refrain this a little bit, David.

FRUM: Sure.

CUOMO: You know, my friends who are big believers in what you just said, it comes down to their desire to have something be better. They don't like where their deductibles are. They don't like some of the policy configurations. They don't like some of the choice. They want better.

And I know that you factored that into the name of this bill on the Republican side but it doesn't appear to be better. Why put so much stock in the political promise of repeal and replace instead of emphasizing that they just figure out better ways to deal with what's there. Wouldn't that ultimately be most satisfying to your voters?

SCHLAPP: Yes. I mean, actually, on this reconciliation bill, Chris, you're right. You can only do so much according to the Senate parliamentarian. There's only so much they can do. This is why they're calling this step one. Senator Price has already done 11 or 12 administrative acts. He's going to do more to change Obamacare.

[07:55:10] But you're right, it's not just about what we don't like about Obamacare, which is where Republicans have been for seven years. It's got to be about what we believe. And I just think that we believe that the best way to solve our health care problem is not to grow the rolls of Medicaid.

Obamacare was, in large part, pushing a lot of people onto Medicaid. We actually want to get people off Medicaid into the individual private market so they can buy health care plans. So what Republicans are trying to fashion is an off-ramp for Medicaid into the private market so that they can actually get better health care.

CUOMO: So, David, that's the proposition.

FRUM: Republicans --

CUOMO: An off-ramp into private health care, but the problem is you're dealing with a population that's having funding cuts that don't have the money for it.

FRUM: Look, Republicans say that but they don't believe it. Let me give you a very concrete example. Senator Rand Paul from Kentucky, the purest of the pure, so he says. Four hundred and fifty thousand Kentuckians have gained coverage under the Affordable Care Act. That coverage increase, it's concentrated in the southeast part of the state which is precisely where Senator Paul's vote is concentrated.

So there are counties in the southeast where Rand Paul's getting 70, 75, 80 -- in one case, 84 percent of the vote. And in those counties a fifth of the population will lose their Medicaidcoverage if ACA is repealed. That is a fifth of the population is there under the Medicaid extension.

SCHLAPP: Not true.

CUOMO: Matt's saying that's not true, David.

FRUM: It's --

SCHLAPP: It's not true. We actually --

FRUM: It's -- I direct you to "The Atlantic" article where I wrote those numbers. They're all fact-checked, there are leaks. You can count them all. It's in my -- it's in the piece I'm going to repost this morning. It is true. And because it's true, Rand Paul --

SCHLAPP: Here's the problem.

FRUM: -- is acting in predictable -- let me finish the sentence --

SCHLAPP: Exactly.

FRUM: -- is acting in predictable ways, which is he's talking right and voting left. And that's what Senator Mike Lee is doing, that's what Senator -- not Senator Cruz. That's what the senators from Arkansas are going to do. That half the population that gained Medicaid coverage under the ACA is white. Let's be blunt about this. Those are --

CUOMO: And, Matt --

SCHLAPP: Let me --

FRUM: Those are Trump voters, those are Rand Paul voters. And Republicans are not, in fact, going to take that away and that's --

CUOMO: What --

FRUM: -- why they're tripping over their own feet as they carry this tray across the ballroom.

CUOMO: What did David have wrong --

SCHLAPP: I get --

CUOMO: -- Matt?

SCHLAPP: OK. Well, first of all, I think to know the specifics on the numbers is one of the problems with CBO. I think Ron Johnson pointed that out. When you're estimating about the impact on health care policies we get it wrong a lot because it is complicated to know what people are going to do.

I'll give you an example. In the most recent CBO analysis they talk about the fact that 15 million people, after the mandate goes away, might choose not to get health care coverage. Do you realize even if Obamacare stays in place, year after year people are choosing to forego the mandate because they simply can't afford the premiums?

And when people talk about the fact that people in Kentucky will lose Medicaid coverage it's because our whole model is to get them off Medicaid and onto a private sector alternative. I'd much rather have a tax credit for somebody to buy the health care insurance they want than to force them onto Medicaid. Medicaid's better than nothing.

CUOMO: Yes. The tax credit is only as good as your income level because --

FRUM: Because when Matt --

CUOMO: -- the tax credit doesn't help --

SCHLAPP: Look, it's only --

CUOMO: -- if you don't have the money to pay enough taxes --

SCHLAPP: That's not true.

CUOMO: -- to offset the subsidy.

SCHLAPP: No, no, no, no. These are --

FRUM: When that's true --

SCHLAPP: These are advanceable, refundable tax credits which you get even if you don't pay income taxes. Now, some conservatives think they're too generous but that is the choice -- the -- this off-ramp they've chosen.

CUOMO: Well, if it's -- then it's --

FRUM: Now it's a tax credit here at CNN.

CUOMO: -- not a tax credit. That would be a subsidy, by the way, Matt.

SCHLAPP: Well, you know, Chris, I think you make a really good point. The difference between an advanceable, refundable tax credit and a subsidy I think is a very fair point.

CUOMO: But I'm saying a tax credit has to do with what you pay in taxes and an abatement thereof. So if it's money in their pocket --

FRUM: Matt -- I'm sorry --

CUOMO: -- that's something else. But David, make a final point. FRUM: You've gone down a -- you've gone down a rabbit hole here. You've gone down a rabbit hole. It lets Matt get away with too much. I'm sorry.

CUOMO: Make your final point.

FRUM: Whether or not you think that --

SCHLAPP: I think the president has done a good job.

FRUM: Whether or not you think the CBO has difficulty -- has -- whether you think the CBO has a difficulty modeling the market for individual care, there is -- the market -- modeling Medicaid is easy. It is just a fact how many -- it's written into the law how many people will lose Medicaid, so -- and Matt may think it's better to get a refundable tax credit --

SCHLAPP: That's not accurate.

FRUM: But Rand Paul --

SCHLAPP: That's not true.

FRUM: -- who has to get reelected in -- Rand Paul has to get reelected in Kentucky is defending --

CUOMO: All right.

FRUM: -- the ACA because, otherwise, his career is over.

CUOMO: David, Matt --

SCHLAPP: Why don't we just do the right thing and not worry about it?

FRUM: That has multiplied across the Republican Party.

CUOMO: David and Matt, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

SCHLAPP: Thanks, Chris.

CUOMO: All right. We're following a lot of news. We have a live interview with one of the new Republicans who opposes the Senate health care plan. Why? We'll ask, you'll hear the answer. Let's get after it.


SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: It's a big, complicated subject. We're still optimistic.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: This was a disaster and I'm glad the American people were able to defeat it.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: The bill, overall, needs to look more like a repeal bill.

TRUMP: We have a chance to do something very, very important.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), SENATE MINORITY LEADER: No matter how the bill changes around the edges it is fundamentally flawed at the center.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Several days before the exposure of John Podesta's e-mails, Roger Stone seemed to note.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His testimony is going to be extremely important.

JOHN PODESTA, FORMER CHAIRMAN, HILLARY CLINTON PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: I was happy to cooperate in their investigation of Russian interference.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The one person that still denies this intervention seems to be the President of the United States.


ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo and Alisyn Camerota.