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U.S. Preparing for More Pressure on North Korea; China's President on First Visit to Hong Kong as Leader; Saving Elephants One Herd at a Time. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired June 29, 2017 - 14:00   ET


[14:00:10] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, the conundrum over North Korean nukes just got deeper. A bleak forecast after a rare meeting

between American officials and diplomats from Pyongyang from the former CIA analyst Sue Mi Terry.


SUE MI TERRY, FORMER CIA ANALYST: It's a very pessimistic picture. The North Koreans have told us that denuclearization is completely off the

table. That nuclear weapons is no longer negotiable.


AMANPOUR: Also ahead, the Chinese president on his first trip to Hong Kong 20 years after the British handover. Lord Chris Patten, the last governor,

on the long road to democracy.

Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

It's a rare thing to speak to North Korean officials, especially if you're an American and a former CIA analyst. But Sue Mi Terry has done just that.

And tonight, she brings us a profoundly pessimistic prognosis for deescalation over Pyongyang's rapid march to becoming a nuclear power.

It comes as the new South Korean president arrives in Washington to meet with President Trump and members of Congress. Moon Jae-in may face

contentious conversation, because he is in favor of more dialogue with Pyongyang. While the Trump administration says it will step up the

pressure, including preparing military options.

National security adviser H.R. McMaster says now is not the time for any more diplomacy.


H.R. MCMASTER, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: The definition of insanity would be to continue to do the same thing and expect a different result. The

same thing being entering into some sort of a negotiation, prematurely, so the president has directed us to not do that. And to prepare a range of

options, including a military option, which nobody wants to take.

And there's a recognition that there has to be more pressure on the regime. And I think what you'll see in coming days and weeks are efforts to do

that, because what everybody wants is to resolve this without a military conflict.


AMANPOUR: And that's the conundrum. Sue Mi Terry was born in South Korea. She became a CIA analyst and top official on Korea, the National Security

Council under Presidents Bush and Obama, and she joined me from Seoul earlier after recent meetings with a dire diagnosis on Kim Jong-un's



AMANPOUR: Sue Mi Terry, welcome to the program.

Could I start by asking you whether Donald Trump's make America great again will sort of push him toward some kind of pre-emptive military strike on

North Korea, given what the national security adviser has said.

TERRY: I really don't think so. Closest advisers, McMaster, despite what he says, General Mattis, these people understand that military option is

not doable.

There's over 10,000 artillery pieces, within 60 seconds of Seoul. We have 20 million people living in Seoul. We have 20,000 American experts. We

have some 20,500 American soldiers living in Seoul, and they understand never mind that North Korea is already a nuclear power.

AMANPOUR: You along with colleagues have just met with North Korean officials, personnel in Europe. It's quite rare to get these kinds of


What did you get from them? What sense of where they are in terms of denuclearization or some kind of negotiation with the United States or the

west? Where are they?

TERRY: Well, it's a very pessimistic picture. The North Koreans have told us that denuclearization is completely off the table. Nuclear weapons is

no longer negotiable. They are so close to perfecting their nuclear arson, to completing their program and capability to reach the mainland United

States with an ICBM, with a nuclear tip ICBM.

They said why would we give this up? This is our last final deterrent, only means of survival. So nuclear weapons, discussing nuclear weapons is

off the table. They're only willing to meet to possibly talk about a peace treaty to formally end the Korean War, but not over the nukes.

AMANPOUR: And is that a goal? I mean, will the United States, will all the other, I don't know, the previous parties to the six party talks, will

they -- is that an attractive option for them?

[14:05:00] TERRY: No, it's not. It's also not a feasible option. From where we are, it's impossible to get to a peace treaty option. Because

what the North Koreans really want by formally concluding a peace treaty is really to be able to get, force the U.S. forces out of the Korean peninsula

and then are they going to give up nuclear weapons? How do we verify that>?

We have multiple agreements with North Korea. Every single agreement failed over verification.

AMANPOUR: What can China do if anything? And why can't they do more?

TERRY: Because China's strategic priorities, interests, goals towards North Korea is fundamentally different from ours. While they still don't

want North Korea to have nukes, they are more concerned about instability or possible reaching collapse in North Korea.

AMANPOUR: Let me take something that you have said recently. You have basically said that increased sanctions, you wrote a "Washington Post" op-

ed would impose a penalty on North Korea without risking a war, and could conceivably hasten the day that the Kim regime finally collapses. So that

is a pretty hard line position. It's a position that the United States tried with Iran and failed and then had to go into discussions and come up

with an agreement.

What makes you think that North Korea is going to collapse under just a few more sanctions? You've just outlined how far ahead they are in the

technology and their capability.

TERRY: Well, first of all, I'm not sure it's going to collapse. For Iran, it took about three years of really harsh sanctions to get Iran back to the

table, back to the negotiating table.

With North Korea, strong sanctions have only been in place since February of last year, so it's not been three years. It's only been a year and a


And sanctions have not been enforced at the ground level, because China -- Chinese are not helping on their front. So we have not really tried


And by the way, sanctions could very well fail in causing North Korea to denuclearize, because they're just now willing to give up nuclear program.

My only point is, let's then -- this is a reality of the situation. So by continuing to press the regime, there are internal contradictions.

There are things going on on the ground. More information is going into North Korea. More people are aware of what's going on outside of North

Korea. At least they are not as cohesive and united as before.

So what we are saying is, let's -- we're not going to cause regime changes, and we are going to do something about it. But we need to help, where

North Korea's one day will bring about a change. And that could happen with former Soviet Union and Eastern European countries and so on.

AMANPOUR: In the meantime, the former U.S. Defense secretary William Perry told me in March, he told me this about the situation in North Korea.


WILLIAM PERRY, FORMER U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: We have to understand that we have no other means of coercion on North Korea, other than military

power. And we do not want a war with North Korea. I'm convinced that diplomacy could be successful if we went into it with limited objectives.

And then objectives of reducing danger is not completely eliminating them and they're willing to give some concession to get that.


AMANPOUR: As Perry said, trying to negotiate to reduce the danger. Offer some kind of karat as well as stick, is that even a possibility now?

TERRY: I don't think so. I think Kim Jong-il was more willing to negotiate away with nuclear weapons program for concessions, economic aid

and so on.

But I don't think this is no longer the case under Kim Jong-un. He's bent on perfecting his nuclear arsenal that his father and grandfather have

pursued. That cost billions of dollars and millions of lives.

AMANPOUR: You're a former CIA analyst. Really objectively, how good is U.S. Intel on North Korea?

TERRY: We call North Korea a hard target country and that's for a good reason. It's very difficult target. It's very hard to understand. We

don't have very good intelligence. We do what we can, but we don't because we lack human intelligence. It's not like CIA can run CIA agents in North


There are whole host of reasons why North Korea is such a difficult target. We do lack good intelligence particularly on important issues like regime

intentions. That's something that's very difficult to get at.

AMANPOUR: Well, in that case, could they not be as advanced as you think as they are trying to tell you? As those people did tell you.

TERRY: That might be true. But we have also underestimated North Korean capability time after time after time. So we have to assume that -- I

mean, since we don't know, we have to assume that they are where they are at.

I mean, they are continuing to test their missiles and nuclear tests. And every single time they do it, they are improving their capability.

So one day they are going to achieve this capability, where nuclear tip ICBM can reach New York or Washington.

AMANPOUR: Well, on that very distressing note, Sue Mi Terry, thank you very much indeed.

TERRY: Thank you for having me on.


[14:10:00] AMANPOUR: And as she was talking, over in the White House, Steve Mnuchin who is the U.S. Treasury secretary has been speaking live at

the White House press pool there -- press office. And he is announcing new measures of sanctions and the like against North Korea and other sort of

business interest. That as the president, President Trump gets set to meet with the new South Korean president.

Now, China further in the hot seat after a break. 20 years after Britain handed over Hong Kong to Beijing, Lord Patten, the last governor and chief

negotiator warns this country, the U.K., not to be craven about defending Hong Kong's democracy from Chinese interference. That's next.


AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Waiving flags, applauding crowds and a brass band in full swing. These were the scenes that greeted China's President Xi Jinping as he arrived in

Hong Kong to celebrate 20 years since getting the territory back after 150 years of British rule.

Under a one country, two systems arrangement. But away from the red carpet, pro-democracy demonstrators were being rounded up and put away for

the duration of President Xi's three-day visit.

Britain's last Hong Kong governor was Chris Patten who oversaw the 1997 handover, and years of painstaking negotiations. Now, as Britain begins

painful negotiations around Brexit --



AMANPOUR: Lord Patten, welcome to the program.


AMANPOUR: Xi Jingping, the president of China, is there. And I wonder what he would make of the most recent polls which suggest that Hong Kongers

by a vast majority still consider themselves Hong Kongers and not as much Chinese even after 20 years since the handover.

PATTEN: Well, it would be very interesting, in the bravery of whoever shows him the polls, because what he's going to see is the Hong Kong he's

been led to believe.

For example, you see in all the photographs, when he comes off the plane. A group with obviously properly choreographed waving of North Korean style

red flags or red dishwashers or something. And the idea, the idea that people in Hong Kong do that sort of thing naturally, is for the birds.

AMANPOUR: Well, then fast forward 20 years later. The kinds of things you were trying to guarantee for Hong Kong -- freedom of speech, the -- however

much democracy they could have, the whole one country, two systems. Has that promise been kept to them in the past 20 years?

PATTEN: Well, I think it was mostly in the first few years. But I think in the last few years, particularly since President Xi Jinping took over

parallel to the crackdown on dissidents in China has been increased pressure on Hong Kong's windpipe.

And you've seen it in all sorts of ways. You've seen it in attacks on the judiciary and the rule of law. You've seen at the interference in Hong

Kong court cases, you've seen it in a general atmosphere and of hostility to the independence of universities and the media.

You've seen it in the activities of the Hong Kong-Beijing office, which has been interfering in things. And you've seen it above all in the abduction

of people off from the streets.

[14:15:00] Publishers who produced books which the Chinese leadership didn't like. A billionaire who probably knew too much about where the

money was and corruption than they like.

AMANPOUR: So you have criticized quite forcefully the current British government, and you've used that, you know, phrase cow towing to the

Chinese. What are they doing wrong?

PATTEN: The joint declaration, which is supposed to govern Hong Kong for 50 years from 1997 isn't just China's declaration, it's a treaty. It's

lodged at the U.N. with all the parapet that goes with that. And we have a perfect entitlement to actually say when we think things are going wrong.

AMANPOUR: And what do you think Brexit will do? What effect will Brexit have on Britain's dealings with China over Hong Kong over other thing?

PATTEN: One of the consequences of Brexit is however you look at it, we are not just in economic terms, but in political terms, and separating

ourselves from the European mainstream.

So we're on our own in putting cases like our concern about what happens in Hong Kong. And I think that weakens our hand internationally. It also

means because of this assumption that we can replace the trade that we do with Europe, with trade with other people and I suspect it's going to make

us even more prone and to keep our head down when we think commercial considerations rule the roost, which I don't believe they should or will.

I have a very strong sense that a country like this should retain its sense of honor. I think in the long term, may seem rather old fashioned to say

it, but behaving well is in your own best interest.

AMANPOUR: What have -- has your party done to this country, Lord Patten?

PATTEN: Well, it's done two things. First of all --

AMANPOUR: Your party, of course, being the Tory party?

PATTEN: Being the Tory Party which I was at one time chairman of when we won the election in '92. It's done two things. First of all, two

conservative prime ministers in succession have made catastrophic decisions.

Secondly, they've made those decisions partly in an attempt to manage the English nationalist right wing of the conservative party. And we're now

dealing with the consequences.

I don't think that the course we're on at the moment, and is one which is going to lead to anything but the impoverishment of Britain and to us

having a less important role in the world. I hope we can avoid that.

And what is really, really awful is if you put these sort of arguments, it's assumed that you're not a proper patriot. I'm a patriot, I'm not a


AMANPOUR: But are you out of touch? And I ask you that, because, you know, our moderate Torys like yourself, just like moderate Republicans in

the United States are sort of swimming out alone, while the hardliners get a grip of the party and as you've seen with the referendum, and we don't

even know where the Brexit negotiations are going to lead?

PATTEN: We certainly don't. During the election campaign, the prime minister and others are saying, you know, let us implement our plan. They

don't have a plan. People say to me, occasionally, what's going to happen at the end of this process.

I said, well, you can't ask me. And the government don't know, so how should I know. I don't think that people with my sort of views on Europe,

and the difference being values and price and the importance of welfare democracy with only people like suddenly being rendered irrelevant.

And I think we'll actually look a lot more relevant as the consequences of the decisions that have been taken on Brexit are visited on people around


AMANPOUR: Donald Trump in the United States, what effect is that having on the U.S. role on the defense of the global world order that the U.S. and

the west have created and underpinned for 70 plus years.

PATTEN: PATTEN: The United States is more responsible than anybody for the fact that the second half of the 20th century was so much preferable to

the first. Extraordinary generosity, extraordinary magnanimity, great diplomatic and economic inventiveness.

An America with support from some others, but above all America put in place the western order, which has meant that I've spent all my political

life in probably the happiest period in European society forever.

And now we see Mr. Trump elected on the proposition that he has to make America great again. America was already great. Elected on the

proposition that the rest of the world is somehow a threat to America. When America has been leading it.

[14:20:00] But a consequence of Mr. Trump is the respect for America, what some Joe and I would call the soft power and is being frittered away.

AMANPOUR: Lord Patten, thank you very much indeed.

PATTEN: Thank you.


AMANPOUR: And next we head over to Africa, and we imagine conservation on an epic scale. In an exclusive report, CNN followed 500 elephants being

moved across the continent in a bid to protect this rapidly endangered species.

But, first, a very different journey that caught our eye in France today. An inquiry is now underway after the biting satirical weekly "Le Canard

enchaine" came out with a heck of a scoop, claiming the acting Air Force commander used a French alpha fighter jet to fly home on the weekends ten


Not cheap. At more than 10,000 euros a pop, but fast, cutting a 7 hour journey from his base in Bordeaux to just half an hour when flying at a

1000 kilometers per hour.


AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine Africa's ever shrinking elephant tribe. It is hard to do. But these huge, lumbering and much love beast

are among the most endangered in the world. Shrinking habitats and poachers have decimated the elephant population, but now a huge man-made

migration in Malawi may very well be the remedy.

As our David Mackenzie was able to closely observe in this exclusive report.


DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The chase led from the air. Capture beams at the ready. This is conservation on its

absolute largest scale. The record of location.

It's just a single elephant, entire herds darting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to take the group right from the oldest matriarch down to the smallest baby.

Here he comes. Hold on.

MCKENZIE: For the continent's most iconic species, the stakes couldn't be higher.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look here on the left, a large herd of elephants. This is how they should be.

MCKENZIE: Tens of thousands lost each year.

(on-camera): Maybe 20 elephants in a herd over there. They've been so successful in this part, in protecting the elephants that there are too

many here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Humans and elephants are competing for space. Humans are poaching elephants for the ivory. The idealistic view of Africa as

this vast open landscape, where animals can move freely from point A to point B, that doesn't exist anymore.

[14:25:00] We can now link, effectively managed protected areas across Africa, moving elephants from areas where management has been successful in

the picture into areas where elephants have been depleted. And what we're doing here now demonstrates that scale is not a limitation.

MCKENZIE: And the operation isn't without risk.

An adolescent stops breathing.

Every time an elephant goes down, its massive weight becomes a danger to itself. This is just one of 500 elephants they hope to move. But with the

very survival of the species at stake, each one is precious.

(on-camera): You were doing everything you can to try and revive that animal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we tried to resuscitate the animal for probably 10 or 15 minutes. That was just too late.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): And they're pioneering new methods to lessen the danger.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're trying to keep the face of the animal as low as possible. Wake them up as quickly as possible. It reduces the (INAUDIBLE)

reduces the risk.

MCKENZIE: The epic journey north starts the same day, too. It will be repeated several times over the next six weeks for each new herd.

(on-camera): What do you see over there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's an elephant in there. So we brought in six elephants in here last night.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): There used to be 1500 elephants. And in Kota Kota, poachers slaughtered all but 70. And as the gate opens for the new

arrivals, Sam Kimoto (ph) is confident.

Is the future bright for elephants in Malawi?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The future looks bright, indeed. These animals had just travelled a long distance and finally they are going out into freedom.

There's hope now that we can save this species.

MCKENZIE: His team has secured the park for this very moment. It's rebirth.

David McKenzie, CNN, Malawi.


AMANPOUR: Hope and rebirth, what wonderful words.

That is it for our program tonight. And, remember, you can always listen to our podcast, see us online at and follow me on Facebook and

Twitter. Thanks for watching, and good-bye from London.