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Russian Lawyer: Trump Aides Wanted Info "So Badly"; NYT: Email To Trump Jr. Said Russians Had Info On Clinton; Trump Jr. Tweets Email Chain On Russian Meeting; Interview with Rep. Chris Stewart. Aired 11- 11:30a ET
Aired July 11, 2017 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: -- "Times" report that Donald Trump Jr. was e-mailed ahead of time about the material a Russian lawyer wanted to pass along to him and was told the source was the Russian government.
Don Jr. admits he was promised information helpful to the campaign about Hillary Clinton. But in response to all this, his attorney says it's much ado about nothing. But no one has yet denied the existence of the e-mail.
Today, the Russian lawyer who've met with Don Jr. at the height of the 2016 campaign is now speaking out. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had the impression, it appears, that they were going to be told information that you had about the DNC. How did they get that impression?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): It's quite possible maybe they were looking for such information. They wanted it so badly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever worked for the Russian government? Do you have connections to the Russian government?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: The White House for its part denying any collusion. The president's lawyers denying that he knew about this meeting at all. I do want you to keep this in mind. This now makes at least seven current or former Trump campaign team member who have either lied, changed their stories, or have not been forthcoming about their contacts with Russia.
Joining me right now, CNN political director, David Chalian is here with me. So David, what does this all mean? What does this change?
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, I think we are now seeing drip, drip, drip in a pretty significant way just on the Donald Trump Jr. meeting, just on this one meeting. He had a version on Saturday, that story didn't hold up, said it was just about adoptions. Then on Sunday, we learned it's about negative information about Hillary Clinton that could help in the campaign.
Now we are learning, and this is where I think it gets very significant. He knew in an e-mail, now, so this is going to be part of sort of evidence that Mueller, that Senate Intel, the House Intel, all the investigative authorities are going have a whole chain of custody of e-mails now, right.
CHALIAN: So he has an e-mail that says it's the Russian government that is looking to pass this information on. That's a different ball game. It's not just I'm going to look from any corner possible. It's what campaigns do.
That's been Donald Trump Jr.'s defense. But it said in the e-mail, it was the Russian government's effort to help his father's campaign. That was the purpose this woman wanted to sit down and meet with them.
BOLDUAN: It seems to change where the significance is. Not just the meeting, it's what was known before walking into the meeting, because then he still decided to walk in.
But also significant, David, if you could, put it in context for folks, what was happening within the Trump campaign? What was this, June 9th, 2016, when this Russian attorney walked into Trump Tower?
CHALIAN: So remember, Donald Trump had just wrapped up the primary season, secured enough delegates to become the nominee. We are still several weeks before the convention. It's a moment of transition.
Remember, also, this is when the staff shakeup was starting to brew. The children of Donald Trump, right, wanting Corey Lewandowski out. You have Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort, the campaign chairman, in this meeting.
But Corey Lewandowski, who was still campaign manager at that time but not for long, was not in this meeting, which I find it interesting. You have a small operation that's run like a family business.
As you know, you've covered the campaign, all throughout that primary season, that didn't look like every other campaign you've or I've covered --
BOLDUAN: They took pride in that.
CHALIAN: They did. It was a different operation. This was just as they were trying to expand and figure out how to be a general election nominee. So all of that is the context.
We know Donald Trump, his schedule that date, he was in Trump Tower for part of it and he was at a fundraiser at the Four Seasons with Paul Manafort for part of it. What we don't know is, was he with Paul Manafort before Paul Manafort sat in that meeting or after? And we don't know, you know, other than we have heard from the White House and his lawyer that Donald Trump knew nothing of the meeting, did not know about it or anything about it. That seems odd, if he's with Paul Manafort in that same day, but we'll have to see.
BOLDUAN: We have heard from the president's attorney. We've not heard from the president on this one directly, but keep your eye on the Twitter feed. David, standby with me if you could.
Democratic Senator Tim Kaine, Hillary Clinton's running mate last year tells CNN, he thinks with this, Trump's son might have committed treason. Republican lawmakers are not going there yet, of course.
But Senator John McCain, he does have concerns and spoke out to our Manu Raju just a short time ago. Listen to this.
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: What's your reaction to Donald Trump Jr. being informed by --
SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), ARMED SERVICES CHAIRMAN: I have said many times in the past, there's another shoe that will drop and there will be other shoe that is drop.
RAJU: Is this in your view the first sign of coordination between the Trump campaign and Russia --
MCCAIN: We have heard of many stories of meetings and communications and stuff, yes. There will be many more shoes that will drop.
[11:05:01]RAJU: How serious do you think this particular shoe is?
MCCAIN: I don't know. There's another shoe that is dropped that needs to be pursued and looked at.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It seems like the story is evolving, the White House story is evolving.
MCCAIN: The story has been evolving on this whole issue for the last several months.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does it concern you --
MCCAIN: As I told you it would.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- that it's a family member? That's different from a member of the staff having this kind of conversation.
MCCAIN: I can't get into all the details because we don't know all the details. I know it's serious, but I've said a long time ago, it's serious. This is a serious situation. One that is a long way from over.
(END VIDEOTAPE) BOLDUAN: All right, we do have some new breaking news coming in just now. Bear with me because it's just handed to me. Donald Trump Jr., as we we've discussing with David Chalian, this breaking news, he has just released a new statement. That was just tweeted out.
He has also released, it appears to be the e-mails that we are discussing or part of an e-mail we are discussing. Let me read the statement to you in full. This, from Donald Trump Jr.
"To everyone in order to be totally transparent, I am releasing the entire e-mail, chain of my e-mails with Rob Goldstone about the meeting on June 9th, 2016. The first e-mail on June 3rd was from Rob who was relating a request from Ameen (ph), a person I knew from the 2013 Miss Universe pageant in Moscow.
Ameen and his father have a very highly respected company in Moscow. The information, suggested, they had about Hillary Clinton, I thought was political opposition research. I first wanted to just have a phone call.
But when that didn't work out, they said the woman would be in New York and asked if I would meet. I decided to take the meeting. The woman, as she has said publicly was not a government official.
As we have said, she had no information to provide and wanted to talk about adoption policy and the Magnitsky Act. To put this in context, this occurred before the current Russian fever was en vogue.
As Rob Goldstone just today said in the press, the entire meeting was the most inane, nonsense I ever heard and I was actually agitated by it."
All right, so that is the new statement coming out from Donald Trump Jr. Let me bring in with me right now, CNN legal analyst, Paul Callan is here. CNN political analyst and "USA Today" columnist, Kirsten Powers is here.
CNN national security analyst, "New York Times" correspondent, Matthew Rosenberg, CNN legal contributor and the president of the Senate Conservatives Fund, Ken Cuccinelli, who is a former attorney general of Virginia, and David Chalian, I roped him back into staying with us to discuss as well.
I'm going to acknowledge, guys, I have not been able to look through the e-mail. David, on your phone, it's probably way too small. But it looks like he is releasing something of an e-mail chain that goes back and forth with Rob Goldstone. Paul, this is really interesting stuff to be putting out in the face of all this.
PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I'm not surprised. He knows he's going to be under oath before a Congressional committee. He's going to have to answer questions. So I think he's trying to get in front of the story and I think this is a wise move on his behalf.
The Trump position on this is that this is nothing criminal. This is simply opposition research that happens to emanate from the Soviet Union or the Russian Federation, I should say. He's trying to get in front of the story.
BOLDUAN: Let me read part of this. It looks like this is the first e-mail from Rob Goldstone. This print is extremely small. It says, "Good morning. Ameen (ph) just called and asked me to contact you with something very interesting. The crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.
This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but as part of Russia and its government support for Mr. Trump." Wow! Helped along by Aras and Ameen. How do you want to handle the information? This is the first time I'm reading it, David, Kirsten. That's an important line.
KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It's a very important line and also again it's too small to read, but I see someone from "The Atlantic" tweeted out that she is identified as a Russian government attorney. This is a person who, by the way, according to that, they know she's coming to talk about basically Russian sanctions, right.
And so -- and by the way, whenever Russians talk about adoption that is really what they are talking about. So, you know, they should have known that. They should have known that -- so people understand, the sanctions are against Russian government officials.
So unless this woman just have a hobby of lobbying on behalf of the Russian government, she's probably connected to the Russian government. In her interview with NBC, she said that. For years, I have worked on this issue of the sanctions.
So, again, unless she is a hobbyist and working on getting sanctions lifted against Russian government officials who are cronies of Vladimir Putin, it's a reasonable assumption that this woman is connected to the Russian government.
[11:10:04]CHALIAN: Kate, that line that you just read in that e-mail where Goldstone makes it clear to Donald Trump Jr. that this is --
BOLDUAN: Government support.
BOLDUAN: It's part of Russia and its government support for Mr. Trump.
CHALIAN: So to me, that negates the whole line that Donald Trump Jr. is offering as tweets that the Russian narrative was not either and there was no big deal about Russia at that time. So it doesn't matter if that was a story line or not. It's in this e-mail that he was alerted that the Russian government is seeking to help his father's campaign.
CALLAN: It goes beyond that too in an important way I think because it talks about an official document of the Russian government. Now, this would suggest Russian government involvement, not just in leaking information, but how did they obtained a document relating to Hillary Clinton.
Was it through hacking or illegal entry into U.S. computer systems? That gets closer to a link to possible criminal conduct, if, in fact, that's what is being referred to here. Of course, we don't know at this point.
BOLDUAN: Let me bring in, Ken Cuccinelli, we are all seeing this for the first time together. What is your -- you straddle the political and the legal. What is your reaction to what we are reading right now?
First of all, I agree with an earlier comments that in light of this coming out, that it was smart on Donald Jr.'s part to just release the e-mails. If their whole team would take that more open approach, we are talking about an ugly line in one of these e-mails.
KEN CUCCINELLI, CNN LEGAL COMMENTATOR: We are going to talk about that. We'll talk about it in other evidence that comes out, too. It would be so much easier and I think beneficial in the long run for the whole Trump team, if they went hunting this stuff down and if they started putting it out.
Look, Donald Trump, the president, has no trouble taking shots on the chin and giving them back. They are going to take shots on this. I think it was smart on Jr.'s part to lay it out there as ugly as it may be. And certainly that line on the e-mail, I haven't seen the rest of them, is very, very telling.
It also suggests to me that if he released these that he had, in fact, read them. So you all keep in mind, in the second week of June of 2016, it was very chaotic, not that it ever wasn't in the Trump campaign, but, you know, everybody is trying to access the campaign and the president.
There's a bazillion e-mails coming in. It may have been a plausible position to say I never saw these e-mails, except that it came from someone he knew. It was about someone they had worked with in Russia who they apparently held in some regard on a business level and obviously, that connection was used on the other end to access Donald Jr.
This is one of the issues, you know, this isn't Billy Carter. Billy Carter wasn't involved in the government with Jimmy Carter. The family of Donald Trump has been intimately involved in governments. Because of that, all of them are targets of this dragnet and here is Donald Jr. in it. We are going to hear more about it as the days go forward.
BOLDUAN: Matthew, let me bring you in as well. In an e-mail, this goes from Rob Goldstone back to Don. Great, they just pulled it up on the screen. It starts with the whole of pleasantries, but then it says Ameen asked that I schedule a meeting with you and as Kirsten says, the Russian government attorney who is flying over from Moscow for this Thursday. So, that seems to be a problem in the fact this person is not connected to the kremlin at all.
MATTHEW ROSENBERG, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes. I mean -- you know, you can claim, I guess, this is somebody who wasn't in the government with no experience with this.
I think they are going to run into a problem, which is that, you know, you are taking information to hurt a political opponent in an American election from somebody that is identifying themselves as coming from the Russian government, information from the Russian government.
That's going to raise a ton of questions with the FBI investigators among senators and House members on the Hill. I think you saw that with Senator McCain. The other question, if I were sitting in an interview with Don Jr., I would ask, if you didn't think there was anything wrong with it, why are we only finding out about it a year later?
You know, we have months and months and months of revelations of somebody met here and there. At some point, it's like, there's nothing to see here. Why not tell us all about it? Why not come out and say it? Tell us everything that happened, instead of only coming out with the details after the stories have broken and the news is out.
[11:15:02]BOLDUAN: What does this also mean -- excellent point, Matthew. David, what does this mean for the other two people in that meeting, Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort? Maybe best case scenario, Don Jr. didn't share this ahead of time?
CHALIAN: That would be the best case scenario. You know, I think it's reported Jared Kushner was in and out of that meeting. It is because of Jared Kushner -- remember, he initially filled out his security clearance form and he did not include, initially. It was submitted prematurely.
They filled it all out again. They put it in to detail contacts with Russia, right? It wasn't that initial one. It was a supplement supplemental dump of information from Jared Kushner to make sure that he is getting everything to the investigative authorities that this meeting then appeared on a form of Jared Kushner's.
BOLDUAN: All of these details is extremely important obviously for the entire investigation. But if we take a mini-step back in what this kind of confirms, does this mean now that Donald Trump Jr. went into a meeting looking for help from the Russian government?
POWERS: Well, it suggests he was open to it. Look, if you took -- I have been hearing Trump defenders saying, this happens all the time. Jason Miller was saying it happens all the time. This actually doesn't happen all the time. Most campaigns that received this sort have forwarded this to the FBI.
I mean, I think if you give this to the average high school student and asked them to identify what was wrong with it, they would be able to tell you. So it really is hard to believe that Donald Trump Jr. did not understand what he was doing here. BOLDUAN: Let me add to this conversation, guys, if you could stick with me. Let's get the view from Capitol Hill right, some reaction, Republican Congressman Chris Stewart of Utah, is joining me now. He sits on the House Intelligence Committee. Congressman, thanks so much for coming in. I really appreciate it.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART (R-UT), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Good morning.
BOLDUAN: Good morning. We are getting new information. I'm not sure how much you have been able to hear our conversation or to see. Of this news about the meeting that Donald Trump Jr. had, Donald Trump Jr. has released the entire e-mail chain that he had with his go between.
STEWART: Here is an important line I would like to get your reaction to in this e-mail. This go between Rob Goldstone writes to Donald Trump Jr., this is obviously very high level and sensitive information, but, is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump. What does that tell you, Congressman?
I don't know, honestly. It's something that's just being revealed to me even as we speak here. It's something we would want to look into. I'm not here to defend Mr. Trump or Mr. Trump Jr., I'm here to discover the truth.
And I think the House Intelligence Committee has always been committed to that. We are going to investigate and report to the American people. Having you read it, I wish I could be more helpful, I really do, but it's just too early for me to really respond to it having not seen it or really seen its context.
BOLDUAN: Does it raise new questions for you?
STEWART: Well, I think so. I mean, any one of these things raises questions. Look, I know there's a lot of people who dream of Donald Trump being impeached and the Russian collusion being proven. Again and again, we have been disappointed in that in the sense that most of these things turn out to be, you know, not much there.
When you talk to Natalia, she says we didn't discuss this. At least as far as I know now from press reports, she said, I never had any negative information or damaging information on Secretary Clinton.
From what I understand, Mr. Trump Jr. says we discussed primarily the Russian adoption issue. We never discussed any negative information. I guess, these e-mails kind of set up a different story for why they meeting took place, but it sounds like this context really didn't discuss any of this.
BOLDUAN: But the intent of the meeting if Donald Trump Jr. knew going in that, one, it was in order to help the Russian government to help -- or the Russian government wanting to help Donald Trump's campaign and also on another e-mail, it says that she is coming and she is a Russian government attorney. Does that seem appropriate to you? STEWART: No. I mean, that's obviously would be concerning to us. It's one of the things, again, we would want to question that and dive down into that. Again, my understanding is she says I wasn't a Russian official. I wasn't working for, as an agent of the Russian government. This seems to indicate that maybe she had some affiliation. I really don't understand that. Let's ask the question and try to find out.
BOLDUAN: Do you want Donald Trump Jr. to come before you and testify before your committee?
STEWART: For sure. I mean, I just think this is one of those things the American people are going to wonder about. It's going to have a lot of unanswered questions, I think, unless he's willing to come and testify. I have to give him credit and thank him for releasing these e-mails and doing it very quickly.
It gives you and I and the media and those of us on the committee a chance to really digest them. I think that was a good, positive step. There's more questions that these e-mails will raise.
[11:20:09]And we look forward to having a chance to speak with Mr. Trump Jr. about this.
BOLDUAN: Does it seem pretty clear at this point, though, that from the e-mail -- just even the sentence that I read to you that Donald Trump Jr. went into this meeting, if not seeking, at least open to working, getting information from the Russian government to help his father's campaign?
STEWART: Again, I know it would seem that way, but I hate to prejudge it. There's so many times in this investigation where it seems something is "a," then when you put it in context and learn more about it, you find out it's really not.
So I think to be fair to the process and Mr. Trump and frankly, Natalia as well, I would like to hold judgment on that. But look, it's very obvious that there's some questions that arise because of these e-mails that we look forward to asking and getting answers to.
BOLDUAN: Should he have notified the FBI about the e-mail, about the meeting?
STEWART: You know, I don't know. Again, it's kind of early. I would say this, if they had a meeting and negative information about the secretary was shared, then I think, yes, the appropriate response and what I would have done at that point was say, you need to share that with the FBI or share that with the justice officials.
But I tell you, you know, in politics and probably in life, we hear lots of things and often it turns out not to be much there. So, I don't know that you would share based on just this one e-mail. Once again, I come back to what both people said, no negative information was shared.
Natalia said I didn't have negative information on Secretary Clinton. If she had shared something, I think that would have been a bigger burden for Mr. Trump to share that with FBI officials.
BOLDUAN: Right. But the fact that the meeting happened at all, is that not significant? I mean, regardless of what information came out of the meeting, when the meeting is set up as a Russian government attorney and the Russian government's assistance to help your father's campaign, that's not --
STEWART: I agree with you. I mean, that's a meaningful development. That's something that the American people and those of us on the Intelligence Committee will want to learn more ant. There's no doubt about it.
BOLDUAN: With an e-mail chain like that, would you have taken a meeting after receiving an e-mail like that, Congressman?
STEWART: I don't know. I mean, honestly, it's hard for me to imagine someone would come to me with something like that. You know -- look, people come to me all the time and say I have negative information on your opponent or negative information about this or that.
BOLDUAN: Negative information is one thing. Research is the name of the game. A Russian government wanting to assist your campaign you would take that meeting?
STEWART: No, I'm not saying I would take that meeting. I'm saying it's hard for me to judge that. I think we need to learn more about that. Honestly, it's hard for me to envision myself in that scenario. It's difficult to imagine how I would respond to that.
No, I can't imagine if someone said to me or any foreign government has negative information, my first response I think would be to share it with some other officials.
BOLDUAN: Quickly, I think we have to get going, but you are an Air Force pilot 14 years, if I have that correct. I want to get your reaction to the tragic crash and death of service members that happened overnight. Just to get your thoughts on that?
STEWART: Well, you know, look, those who serve in the military, God bless them, God bless their spouses. You have to remember these families back home. I remember getting a phone call hearing the wife of a very good friend of mine is, all she said is oh, Chris. I knew there was bad news.
That's the thing all these families dread. In any one of these circumstances, God bless them for serving, and let's do everything we can to support and comfort those who need it at this time.
BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Congressman, I really appreciate your time. Thanks for juggling the breaking news with me. We'll look forward to seeing what comes out of the committee, of course, especially on this news. Thanks so much.
All right, let's stay on -- let's go to Washington, Evan Perez has new reporting coming in. Evan, what do you have?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, one of the things that's really --
SENATOR TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: -- every single time we try to provide any meaningful relief for the people hurting under Obamacare, the position of Senate Democrats has been not only no but hell no. They have opposed anything to help the people that are hurting.
Right now, I would happily work with Democrats if they are willing to address it. The position of Democrats is not only do they not want to repeal Obamacare and help the people who are hurting under it, they want to expand Obamacare and make the problems worse. That's not compromise. That's moving backwards. In my view, you asked about compromise.
BOLDUAN: All right, so you are listening to Ted Cruz right there on Capitol Hill. Many issues we are juggling. Let's get back to Evan Perez. Evan, you were just beginning with your reporting, fill us in.
[11:25:06]PEREZ: That's right, Kate. Well, one of the things that's interesting here is, our reporting indicates that the FBI did not have possession of this information on this meeting prior to this coming out over the weekend from "The New York Times."
So, we do know, however, that they have been looking at intelligence information that they have gathered over the past year doing this investigation that they believe indicated that the Russians believe they have in some way were trying to collude or coordinate with the Donald Trump campaign.
So, the question is, what else does the FBI have and does this amplify or add to what the FBI already had and Robert Mueller, the special counsel, what they already have as part of the yearlong investigation into the Trump campaign and ties to Russia.
As you mentioned, I think a couple times, you know, what's key in these e-mails that Donald Trump Jr. released is the specific mention that this lawyer who was coming over from Moscow is referred to as a government attorney. His reaction is simply, OK, great. See you at 3:00 tomorrow.
Which is really a remarkable thing because over the weekend and over the last couple days, we've heard repeatedly from the White House that they weren't aware who this woman was. They didn't know she had ties to the government of Russia. That there was nothing discussed about the campaign.
All of these explanations have fallen apart with every new revelation, so, I'm not sure whether this is the final story, whether this is all the e-mail chains, but we certainly know that the FBI would want to take a look at this.
BOLDUAN: I just want to be clear, Evan. There's a lot going on in my ear. You said that the FBI had not seen these e-mails before he released them?
PEREZ: We are told that the FBI was not aware of this meeting before this came out this weekend. That's one of the things that's interesting about this. They already had enough information from intelligence sources that indicated some suggestion of collusion or coordination, which is why they have been investigating this now for about a year. So it's interesting to me that even without this new information, they already had something significant that caused the investigation.
BOLDUAN: Fascinating stuff. Evan, thank you so much. Anything else you get, please jump on. I really appreciate it. Paul, what do you make of that? We don't know exactly what bob Mueller has, what the FBI has, if he has these e-mails or not.
But it sure came as a surprise, it appears to the Republican congressman on the House Intelligence Committee that we spoke to. It seems like that was absolutely the first time that he was hearing about this when Don Jr. released this.
CALLAN: I think it's a real shocker piece of information because it's a direct link to the Russian government. Obviously, Donald Trump Jr. Knew he was or at least thought he was meeting with a certified representative of the Russian government.
And obviously Donald Trump Jr. knew he was -- or at least thought he was meeting with a certified representative of the Russian government. What surprises me is, wouldn't his father, wouldn't he have called his father and said dad, the Russian government reached out to me. They have stuff on Hillary. Wouldn't that be the normal thing?
It would happen in a family that is close? So I find it very difficult to believe that this is not going to lead in some way to the president, eventually.
The other thing you have to remember is at least five top people in the Trump administration have denied any contact with the Russians, including the current attorney general. Now when pressed, this story has begun to fall. This now is the clearest indication that there was contact early on in the campaign.
BOLDUAN: You raise an interesting point. Matthew, let me ask you this. David Chalian and I were discussing this, also. Where was -- do you know, I might be picking your bane too much to go back to June 9th of 2016. Do you know where Donald Trump was that day when this meeting happened?
ROSENBERG: I actually don't. That's a very good question. I'll look it up when we are done here. You know, I think, though, that there is a real -- raises the point that Trump and those around him said look, we had no real contact with the Russians. That wasn't the case.
And I also think there are a bunch of bits of information that dribbled out that the FBI and investigators did not seem to be aware of immediately. I think they are trying to bring their case together. You can see it. A lot has to do with intelligence being murky.
There's a lot of kind of -- I would say also ask the congressman that was on before, he keeps referring to revelation that turn out to be, there's really no there "there." I'm not sure what he's talking about. There's a lot of revelations about meetings and contacts that it's not clear what went on. It's not that there's no there "there," we still don't know.
BOLDUAN: It seems the congressman was generally surprised when -- this -- if an e-mail is evidence, what was happening with Hillary Clinton the whole time. E-mails are e-mails are e-mails.
POWERS: Yes, but I also think there a couple of more things in the e- mails, you know, where he's told about Russia's support for --