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Kenyan's Opposition Leader Alleges Fraud; Richard Dawkins on Science and Trump; Ireland's Safe Haven at Sea

Aired August 10, 2017 - 14:00   ET



[14:00:15] CLARISSA WARD, CNN HOST: Tonight, crying foul. Kenya's presidential candidate Raila Odinga defends his claim that the Tuesday

election results are a fraud. He joins me from Nairobi for an exclusive interview.

Plus, former U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry who's monitoring the polls in Kenya tells this program why the results are credible.


JOHN KERRY, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: We believe that the elections commission in Kenya has put together a process that will allow each and

every votes integrity to be proven.


WARD: Also, a stunning report on the alarming effects of climate change. How will the Trump administration react?

I speak to British scientist Richard Dawkins and challenged him on his controversial views.

Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Clarissa Ward in London sitting in for Christiane.

A tense calm has returned to the streets of Nairobi as Kenyans wait for the country's election results. Just a day ago, there was violence in parts of

the country which saw at least two people killed.

It followed the opposition leader Raila Odinga claiming that early results were fake and that the electoral system was hacked.

It's a claim he repeated today even though the head of the voting authorities said that while there was a hacking attempt, it was not

successful. We will hear from the presidential candidate Raila Odinga in just a moment.

But, first, we turn to former U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, who was serving as an election monitor in Kenya with the Carter Center.

As Mr. Odinga shouts foul fail, Kerry says there is great legitimacy in Kenya's voting process. I spoke to him from the country's capital Nairobi.


WARD: Secretary Kerry, thank you so much for joining us on the program.

I want to start out by asking you about Odinga's comments that the results of the election are fake and factitious, about these allegations that

certain voting machines were debunked. How do you respond to that? What have you observed?

KERRY: Well, we observed an election process more than 400 observers from nine different international missions. All agreed that the basic process

of carrying out the election was quite positive. There were little aberrations here and there. But at this point in time, I want to be

mindful. The election is still going on. They are still counting. The process is still underway. But we believe that the elections commission in

Kenya has put together a process that will allow each and every votes integrity to be proven and to be protected.

We think that the open process we witnessed where every party agent was present, where they all agreed on what a disqualified ballot was, what a

qualified ballot was. They were present when the ballots were open, present when they were closed. They even were asked do you agree with the

final tally. And after there was all agreement, the tally was sent in on what is called this 34A document.

So there is a way to go back. If anything was changed, if anything was electronically filled with, there is a way to go back and absolutely

ascertain what happened in the polling station. So by paper ballots, there is a protection of each and every Kenyans vote. And I think it is

important to let the process work through so that the election commission has a chance to show Kenyans the way in which they have held to the rules

and in fact implemented an election that is accountable.

WARD: So given what you observed and what you've just said, what do you make then of Mr. Odinga's comments?

KERRY: Well, I'm not going to characterize any candidate's comments at this point in time. You know, he is a candidate for president of Kenya.

He has a right to question certain things.

But I also think he obviously has a responsibility to Kenya, to the democratic process, to the rule of law to make certain that he is providing

the evidence and going through legitimate judicial process that is there for examining any kind of concerns that anybody has.

[14:05:00] Every observer group is asking for all of the leaders to be responsible, to allow the process to work out and to put to test the system

that has been put in place where transparently and accountably to everybody. In the full light of day, people will be able to see what

happened on a particular ballot, in a particular balloting location and examine whether or not the process was properly followed.

We are hearing of some protests yesterday. Two people have been killed so far.

Are you concerned about this violence?

KERRY: Well, all violence is unacceptable. And, of course, anybody is concerned, anybody in the right mind is concerned about the potential of

violence getting in the way of the legitimacy of this process.

This is not an electronic vote, ultimately. It's a paper ballot vote. And so it is determinable as to what happened. And I think it is important for

all of the candidates to allow the process to be transparently put to the test and then if they have a concern, go through the rule of law. Go to the

court process and let the evidence be there for everybody to see.

I think there is great legitimacy in the basic process. The question now that has to be tested is did everybody follow it. And has it in fact as

somebody attempted to alter it at any stage. But the important thing for people to know for every Kenyan to know, this is their election. It's

their individual votes that they waited in line for hours to cast.

And we believe -- the Carter Center believes and the other observers believe that we can determine whether or not those votes were properly

cast, properly counted, properly transmitted, and whether or not the integrity of this election has been protected. And that is what is

critical to every Kenyan and everybody who cares about democracy.

WARD: And just finally, Secretary Kerry, I would be remiss if I didn't take this opportunity to just ask you quickly about your thoughts on the

escalating tensions in the Korean Peninsula.

Are you concerned about what you see taking place there and what was your response at all to President Trump's promises of fire and fury to the North

Koreans if these threats continue?

KERRY: Well, I think that terminology is concerning because it kind of pushes people into corners, into boxes and while it may be a legitimate

point of view or an impression someone has, it is important for diplomacy to work this.

It is important for us to leave the opportunities for diplomacy to work and not to heightened tensions, but rather to try to work our way through them.

So it's my hope that level heads will prevail here. Clearly, the Chinese play a very critical role in this. And we have to work very, very hard on

a number of different fronts, not just the Chinese, in order to reduce the tension.

I think we have a number of options available to us. I'm not going to go into them that do not require leaping to the full measure of some of the

rhetorical confrontation we're seeing today. And I hope that people will work the diplomatic route and do what is wise.

I think wisdom is called for here in an effort to try to work through this. It's not easy. We worked this very hard. We had two different initiatives

at the United Nations that raise the sanctions level than this administration is appropriately pushed even further in that. And I support


But I think you have to give a number of things time to work. And that's the advice that I would give at this point in time.

WARD: Very much appreciate your time. Thank you so much for being on the program, Secretary Kerry.

KERRY: Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you very much.


WARD: Well, returning to the Kenyan elections, the opposition leaders says he is disappointed in John Kerry and other election observers.

He accused them of missing the point as he once again claimed voter fraud today.

Early results show Raila Odinga is trailing the incumbent President Uhuru Kenyatta. In an exclusive interview, I spoke to him about his election

hacking claim.


WARD: Mr. Odinga, thank you so much for joining us on the program.

I wanted to start out by asking you about these claims that you had made that the election systems have been hacked.

What evidence do you have of this?

RAILA ODINGA, KENYAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, we did produce evidence coming from the printout (INAUDIBLE). It showed clearly at what time the

hacking was done. And how long the duration of each. And what kind of information. Who were the people who -- or what kind of codes they are


[14:10:15] So this is a very authentic information that is obtained from our (INAUDIBLE) within the IEBC.

WARD: And yet the IEBC is saying that there was an attempted hack, but that the attempt was not successful.

ODINGA: Yes, which I think they are being very economical with the truth, because as you know we produce 52 pages of documents saying out what kind

of information this people are able to get and what they were able to input. I think that IEBC is not being truthful to the people of Kenya.

WARD: Well, we've also spoken to Secretary of State -- former Secretary of State John Kerry who said that he, along with other international observers

who were there to monitor the election, did not see any instances of what looked like voter fraud or anything like that taking place.

ODINGA: Well, you see, the observers as usual, they are more concern with the cosmetic aspect of the electoral process.

(INAUDIBLE) took about, at what time, when the polling stations open, what's the turn out, how was the process, the voting process itself. The

counting of the polling station. All that, of course, you see, when there is fraud.

But the devil is in the detail. We're basically talking about the transmission of the results and the final tallying.

So I don't -- I think that those observers are completely missing the point about the kind of aspect of rigging that we are talking about.

WARD: But there is of course the point that the electronic ballots are backed up by paper ballots. There is a way to count all the individual

paper ballots.

Does that give you some comfort? Do you believe that when the paper ballots are individually counted that you will be announced as the winner

of this election?

ODINGA: You see, what is happening is that the counting at the polling stations went very smoothly, where we have a problem with the transmission

of those results.

So there is a complete total mess and confusion because the notion of the procedure and this is in fact what should have concerned the observers.

The thing with the observers have not help Kenyan resolve this dispute. They have confounded it by giving basically an approval to a fairly flawed

process. And, therefore, I'm very disappointed to John Kerry and the other observers.

WARD: Well, we had seen violence in your country at election times before. Most notably in 2007, more than 1000 people were killed. Just yesterday

protest erupted, two people killed.

Are you concerned that there could be more violence? And do you feel some degree of responsibility now for keeping your supporters calm.

ODINGA: As you remember yesterday, we do call supporters to remain calm as we try to find a solution to this matter. We do not want to see any

violence in Kenya. We know the consequences of what happened in 2008. And we don't want to see a repeat of that anymore.

WARD: And what will you do to ensure that there isn't a repeat of this.

ODINGA: But, you know, I don't control anybody. I mean, what is happening, people actually just want to see justice. And we also hope that

the security process are not going to use excessive force that will translate into loss of lives of innocent people like what happened


I think basically the protest are peaceful demonstrate are allowed in any democracy, and Kenya is not an exception.


WARD: When we come back, world famous scientist Richard Dawkins joins me for a spirited discussion about climate change, religion and his book "The

Science in the Soul."


[14:16:18] WARD: Welcome back to the program.

A draft report on climate change posted online in January and due for official release this fall details the stark impact of global warming on

the United States.

The report compiled by 13 federal agencies confirmed that Americans are feeling the effects of climate change right now.

It remains to be seen how President Trump will respond to the report. He and his top officials have publicly contested climate change.

Richard Dawkins is one of Britain's most influential and controversial scientist and science writers with a new book just published called

"Science in the Soul."

I spoke with him earlier and asked him about the likely impact of the report.


RICHARD DAWKINS, AUTHOR, "SCIENCE IN THE SOUL": The report of course simply confirms what scientist have been saying for a long time now. There

is now virtually no doubt at all that climate change is serious and that it's caused by human activity.

And the Trump administration's withdrawal from the Paris Accords is a terrible blow, which must be reversed.

WARD: This is a theme that you explore in your book a little bit, and it's an interesting one given the timing of the release of the book. I

wondered, do you believe that we are now living in an age of unreason.

DAWKINS: I'm afraid I do. I think it's only temporary. I think that in general, things are moving in the right direction over a period of decades

and centuries, but I think that just at the moment, we are in a bad place with politicians mistrusting science, mistrusting objective truth and even

maybe even a more general tendency to mistrust objective truth and to mistrust scientists.

I should say, by the way, that my book "Science in the Soul" doesn't explicitly talk much about climate change. But you are right. More

generally, since it does raise the question of scientific truths and public mistrust of it.

WARD: You recently had an invitation to speak at a radio station in Berkeley, California rescinded because of some that you have made in the

past about Islam.

Now in your defense, you have said that your comments critical as they may have been have been directed at Islamism as opposed to Islam. But in your

tweets and public comments, I would have to say the distinction is not always clear.

And I wanted to direct your attention to something you said just last month at a British Science Festival.

You said, quote, "If you look at the actual impact that different religions have on the world, it's quite apparent that at present the most evil

religion in the world has to be Islam."

Can you explain that statement to us. And perhaps offer us an insight into whether you can understand why critics have been somewhat harsh on that

kind of talk?

DAWKINS: I can explain it by reading exactly what I said. It's tempting to say all religions are bad. And I do say all religions are bad. But

it's the worst temptation to say all religions are equally bad because they are not.

If you look at the actual impact that different religions have on the world, it's quite apparent at present the most evil religion in the world

has to be Islam.

It's terribly important to modify that because of course that doesn't mean all Muslims are evil, very far from it.

Individual Muslim suffer more from Islam than anyone else. They suffer from the homophobia, the misogyny, the joyousness which is preached by

extreme Islam, ISIS and the Iranian regime.

So it is a major evil in the world. We do have to combat it. But we don't do what Trump did and say all Muslims should be shut out of the country.

That's Draconian, that's illiberal, inhumane and wicked.

I am against Islam, not least because of the unpleasant effects it has on the lives of Muslims.

[14:20:13] WARD: So you think that the radio station was (INAUDIBLE) invitation.


DAWKINS: It had to be read in context, but it was taken out of context as that radio station did.

WARD: But even within the context, though --

DAWKINS: I should also add that I had been critical of Christianity and all other religions for a very long time. Nobody has ever in the United

States liberal establishment objected to that.

As soon as you criticize Islam, they suddenly start squealing. Why the double standard?

WARD: And how do you respond to critics who say that some of your comments about religion, be it Islam or Christianity smacked of the same

fundamentalism and lack of tolerance that you purport to so abhor and organized religion.

DAWKINS: That is utter nonsense. Fundamentalist religion is based upon the scripture, is based upon lack of thought. Everything I ever say is

based upon evidence. There is a huge difference.

WARD: But they are still inflammatory comments.

DAWKINS: They are true comments.

Have you got a better suggestion for the most evil religion in the world? Christianity perhaps maybe in the Middle Ages, but now what other religion

would you suggest is the most evil in the world?

WARD: Right. So let's move on to -- I would actually like to talk a little bit about the idea of government being against science at the

moment. And what your thoughts are on this and how important you consider it to be.

DAWKINS: Yes, climate change is the obvious one. That's a very, very important one because the world is actually threatened. Sea level rise is

going to be the most dramatic thing that happens, but there are also some other consequences.

There is the melting of the polar ice caps. Not only it causes rise in the sea level, but actually it's tragic for wildlife up there. The dissolving

of the coral reefs, especially the Great Barrier Reef in Australia is tragic from a natural history point of view.

So that is, that is very serious. In my own field of scientific education, evolution is the truth about how we come to be. How whole life comes to

be, the diversity of life and the hostility towards the teaching of evolution is a very serious educational problem, especially in America.

WARD: And so let me ask you that given this backdrop, given these political contexts, what do you see is the role of your book being in these

times? And would you like to see President Trump read it.

DAWKINS: I'd love him to read it. I totally never read any book. However, his -- the man who ghost wrote his book said that he has never

read a book in his adult life. I would love him to read it.

My book is a passionate advocacy for science, not because it's useful, not because it helps us survive, which of course it does, but because it's


I'm passionately a believer in science as a way to discover the beauty of the universe. The beauty of life. The beauty of the world in which we

live. And to deprive children of that I think is a tragedy.

So I'm above all an educator in this field. But science is also very important in taking decisions about the way to run our lives and political


So of course I would love Mr. Trump to read my book. I would certainly love his advisors to read my book and then briefed him on it, in short



WARD: My talk there with scientist Richard Dawkins.

Well, after a break, we go to the sea to imagine a world where waves off the Irish coast wash away the difference between locals and Syrian youth.

That's next.


[14:26:03] WARD: And a final thought tonight.

Today, more tragic news came from the Mediterranean. Over 50 migrants apparently drowning after they were deliberately pushed into the sea by

smugglers as they risked their lives for a shot at a better future.

We imagine a world where the ocean isn't the end but a beginning. Just off the West Coast of Ireland, a human rights lawyer and passionate sailor is

using her boat to integrate five young asylum seekers and five Irish youth.

She calls her project Safe Haven Ireland. And this year, Syrians were on board for the first time.


SHAUNA GILLAN, CEO AND FOUNDER OF SAFE HAVEN IRELAND: There's something magical about starting the boat. That we are all at see together as a team

for a week. You're facing common challenges together. I think it just means that the kind of bonding of the group is so much stronger and so much


This is our first time having resettled refugees on board. So recent arrivals. None of these Syrian lads have been in Ireland for longer than

five months.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I only came to realize myself (INAUDIBLE)


GILLAN: I just want them to be happy. I want everyone happy. And to realized that they can do whatever they want to do, so before the week

started they didn't know that they could be steering in boat like this. So I want them to know that they do what they want to do.


WARD: And that's it for our program tonight. Remember, you can listen to our podcast, see us online at and follow me on Facebook and

Twitter at Clarissa Ward.

Thank you so much for watching and goodbye from London.