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Flynn Refusing to Cooperate with Senate Intelligence Investigation; DOJ Blocking Interviews of FBI Agents on Comey Firing; Florida Schools Used as Shelters Need Hazmat Crews; Trump Meets with Democrats on Tax Reform, DACA; Bernie Sanders Introduces Medicare-For- All Legislation. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired September 13, 2017 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[13:30:00] MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: -- that confirmed that Michael Flynn was in the Middle East in 2015 trying to pursue a major deal that would create 16 nuclear reactors in Saudi Arabia and also would lead to the purchase of military hardware with Russia. This $100 billion deal was being pursued by Michael Flynn and a consortium of companies here in the United States.

What was significant, when he returned back to the United States to fill out his security clearance form to renew his security clearance form as a retired Army general, he did not disclose this foreign meeting. This knowingly falsify your security clearance forms is a violation of federal law. And this is another example of Mr. Flynn not disclosing these meetings.

And, of course, Wolf, he is coming under investigation on a number of fronts, including his conversations with the Russian ambassador last year.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Significant development.

Manu Raju is our senior congressional correspondent.

Manu Raju, thanks very much.

Here with us to assess all of this is our CNN legal analyst, Laura Coates, and chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto.

This potentially, the Flynn failure to acknowledge he was involved in another meeting with the Russians is potentially legally very significant.

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Of course, it is. It was one thing to have the convenient amnesia he was initially saying he had. Now you're talking about nuclear reactors and $100 billion deals and somebody with his foot to the fire about being accused of having violated federal law for not putting things on the form for security clearance. He was fired for doing this very thing. This is another example of what we call the Mens rea. What was your intent here? It sounds to me you have more of an intentional act to you committed a federal law. Forgetting about your dry cleaning? Sure, Wolf. Forgetting this meeting you've had and traveled to about nuclear reactors? Forget it. BLITZER: Jim, this is a big deal right now as far as the overall

Russia investigation is concerned, and the problems that Michael Flynn has.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: You speak to people close to Flynn who served with him, and from their perspective, I've asked many of them this question, why. Why is this happening? Why this failure to disclose is one of the legal issues he's facing right now. Their sense will be that he wasn't a pro at this. Right? This kind of stuff was new to him. He served in the military for decades. He's coming out in the private sector. He's getting business offers. A lot of folks leave the military and do the same thing. That it wasn't part of an intentional pattern to mislead. That's what they'll say. The trouble is, from a legal perspective -- and you know this better than me -- but you can tell by the interest of prosecutors, is that a significant, a sufficient explanation from their point of view and in light of the fact that you have more than one Hill committee now investigating this as well as others in the Justice Department, it shows they're not satisfied.

BLITZER: It's not just a little deal. This was a major deal. The Russians were going to build about a dozen nuclear reactors in Saudi Arabia. Billions and billions of dollars at stake.

SCIUTTO: That's right. "Politico" is reporting this is a deal that Mike Flynn pursued even during the transition. It's something that he continued after this meeting that was not disclosed was in 2015. The transition, he's headed to a senior position in the White House something he didn't let go. In addition, a story out last night that Michael Flynn refused again a request to appear before the Senate Intelligence Committee. The Senate Intelligence Committee one of several committees on the Hill very interested in sitting down with him. He's provided some documents but they want to question him face- to-face. He said no for a second time.

BLITZER: Laura, the notion of the Justice Department, the U.S. Justice Department not allowing FBI agents to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee, you heard Manu's report on that. They say it could complicate the overall Mueller investigation. What's your reaction?

COATES: It's kind of tit meeting that at this point. One is trying to say we have certain subpoena authority and until you share things with us, we're not going to share with you. For example, the Donald Trump Jr transcript they don't want to the provide to Mueller. How this is going back and forth. What you're seeing here is a turf war. Because one of the objectives of the congressional probe is to figure out how to legislate a change. But Mueller has the upper hand. His probe could ultimately result, if they find anything, in criminal charges and perhaps convictions. In that respect, people are looking at Mueller's investigation differently and being a lot more reluctant to cooperate and trying to make sure they have the subpoena. You're seeing a battling out. And this was already anticipated by congressional members before Mueller was even taken into his office because they anticipated this conflict of the uber-secretive process of Robert Mueller. Remember, we didn't know for weeks they even executed a warrant on Manafort's home. Whereas, Congress had to be much more public in virtual real time. This play out further and it will be a continuing conflict till we have a resolution where one decides to take the back seat. It won't be Mueller.

BLITZER: Quickly, at issue is whether or not there was obstruction of justice when the president fired Comey.

[13:35:05] SCIUTTO: Exactly. And this revelation makes it clear this is a line of inquiry of the special counsel. And that's significant. It's one of several. You got the financial track, the collusion track and the obstruction track.

BLITZER: Thanks very much, Laura Coates and Jim Sciutto.

Developing now, the president once again rubbing elbows with some top Democrats in Congress, inviting Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi to dinner tonight. You'll hear what's on the agenda.

Plus, after hosting thousands of people during Hurricane Irma, some shelters in Florida are in such disarray right now, they need hazmat crews to actually come in. We're live on the scene.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Following Irma's wrath, one of the tasks necessary to get life back to normal in Florida, making sure schools in affected areas are ready to open. In many cases, they were used as shelters.

CNN's Ryan Young is joining us right now.

Ryan, you're in the town of Land O'Lakes. You say cleaning up the schools is one more headache for administrators trying to get ready for the students' return. Update us on late breaking developments.

RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well they return on Monday. This is the Pasco County school district. This is Wesley Chapel High School. You can see the school behind me. This operation is ongoing. You can see the work that the workers are doing right now. They are dressed in hazmat suits and cleaning. Every inch of the school to make sure when teachers and students return on Monday morning, that this will be ready for them to be able to be safe and to be able to be have a clean space and environment.

Patsy, you work with Pasco County high schools. Let me know why did you feel you had to go to this length to clean up the schools?

[13:40:07] PATSY KUHN, PASCO COUNTY, FLORIDA, SCHOOL DISTRICT: We had approximately 1500 shelter residents and 300 pets. We want to make sure our schools are safe and secure for the students to return on Monday.

YOUNG: The schools provided a great resource. There was some 20,000. Tell me that number again.

KUHN: We had approximately 22,000 residents in 22 shelter schools and approximately 1800 pets at all of our shelters across the district. YOUNG: We'll talk to you about pets. This picture they shared. Look

what somebody brought here to the school. This was an amazing resource. They didn't want anyone choose between leaving a pet behind or coming to a shelter. This was a pig brought to one of the schools. You talk about being a resource for the community. How has this worked out and how was this is received as all your workers were here?

KUHN: I can't tell you how proud I am to be in Pasco County today. We had an amazing response from our administrators, maintenance crew, food service crew, transportation. Also from the county. We had emergency management. They all came together to be our community. We were able to take in 22,000 people who might not have otherwise been able to have refuge in a storm.

YOUNG: Patsy, thank you very much.

This effort continues. School opens again on Monday -- Wolf?

BLITZER: Ryan, thank you. Ryan Young reporting for us.

Coming up, dining with Democrats. The president invites Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi to the White House once again after striking a deal that shocked members of his own party. So what do Republicans think of this latest outreach? I'll ask one of them.

Plus, we're moments away from the White House press briefing amid new developments involving James Comey and Michael Flynn. Stand by for that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:45:10] BLITZER: Moments from now, President Trump meets with several House Democrats to talk about tax reform and efforts to save DACA. It's the second meeting with Democrats in two days for the president. The bigger get-together though may come later tonight when top Democrats, the Senate and House minority leaders Senator Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi they come to the White House for dinner.

Here with us is senior political reporter, Nia-Malika Henderson.

The president reached an agreement with the leaders. He called them Chuck and Nancy last week. Now another dinner going forward to the deep irritation, the agreement they reached last week of several, a lot of Republicans.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: That's right. This was very much unexpected. You saw Mitch McConnell's face there in the Oval Office after that deal was struck. Was very much struck by surprise by what the president did there. This comes really I think after the president has had really one of his lowest moments last month around Charlottesville around pardoning Sheriff Joe Arpaio. He's reaching across the aisle, striking a deal. We'll see what comes out of the meetings. Republicans very much worried. They are in the dark about some of these meetings growing out what has been lingering tension between Donald Trump, Paul Ryan as well as Mitch McConnell. I reached out to a conservative radio host to get a sense how folks

he's hearing from are looking at this new kind of phase of Donald Trump's presidency. He said that almost you know all of the callers he's hearing from are liking this new phase of the Donald Trump presidency. They essentially think this is what they voted for. They want him to in some way stick it to other Republican leadership. I think the question is, does this last. Is this a one-off or really a new phase in this White House?

BLITZER: Clearly, the president seems to be pleased that he's talking to Chuck and Nancy, as he calls them. He's working on some deals with them. He had promised during the campaign he would try to achieve bipartisan agreement. He seems to be doing that right now.

HENDERSON: He seems to also enjoy the company of particularly Chuck Schumer. They go back all the way to New York and early on after he was elected and certainly around the inauguration, there was hope among some that maybe he could work across the aisle with Chuck Schumer in particular. And I think what happened is that Chuck Schumer himself got a lot of blowback from progressives. We'll see where that goes, too. Certainly, there will be blowback from the Republican leadership. We'll see what it is from Republicans and Democrat who's don't necessarily want to see any deals being made with the president.

BLITZER: It's not just Schumer and Pelosi. He's meeting with some congressional Democrats, the Problem Solvers Caucus, as well.

HENDERSON: That's about 40 folks in the House, 20 Republicans, 20 Democrats. Does the balance of power shift in the House? Typically, you see Paul Ryan sort of going to the House Freedom Caucus, the more conservative group as they try to deal with legislation. Is this a new kind of shift in terms of how this White House is going to operate and approach legislation?

BLITZER: We'll see.

Nia, thank you very much.

Coming up, a potential new chapter in the debate over health care here in the United States as Senator Bernie Sanders prepares to introduce a version of his Medicare-For-All legislation. Is it a long shot or can he get some support? The support he needs?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:52:37] BLITZER: Moments from now, Senator Bernie Sanders will unveil his plan that would expand Medicare into a universal health insurance program for all Americans.

Writing an op-ed in "The New York Times," Senator Sanders said this, and I'm quoting, "This is a pivotal moment in American history. Do we, as a nation, join the reset of the industrialized world and guarantee comprehensive health care to every person a human right, or do we maintain a system that is enormously expensive, wasteful and bureaucratic, and is designed to maximize profits for big insurance companies, the pharmaceutical industry, Wall Street and medical equipment suppliers?"

Meanwhile, Republican Senators Lindsey Graham and Bill Cassidy have unveiled their own plan to partially replace the Affordable Care Act. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: There are three choices, prop up Obamacare, Bernie-care or our bill. That's where we're at. Count me out for propping up Obamacare. Hell no, to Bernie-care. Count me in for an idea that gives a patient a voice they would never have under single-payor health care. Count me in for people in my state making decisions about health care versus some bureaucrat in washington."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Joining us now, Republican Senator John Barrasso, of Wyoming. He's a physician. He's also a member of the Foreign Relations Committee.

Senator, thanks so much for joining us.

SEN. JOHN BARRASSO, (R), WYOMING: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: Are you with Senator Graham and Senator Cassidy?

BARRASSO: I am. I want to get the decisions out of washington and back to the states to let people decide what insurance works best for them. They can find cheaper insurance, more affordable. Gives them more control over their health care because what Bernie Sanders is explaining there, that's Obamacare. It's inefficiency, the bureaucracy, all of those problems relate to Obamacare.

BLITZER: Let's get back to what Senator Graham and Senator Cassidy are proposing. Does that have to be passed by the end of this month with a 50, 51 majority if the vice president gets involved or do you need 60.

BARRASSO: You need 50 until the end of the month when reconciliation issue passes on, but otherwise you can do it with 60 votes. I think it's a good idea to get the money and the decisions back to patients, out of washington and let people decide --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: And do you think there are Democrats who are going to join you in supporting what some are calling a Hail Mary?

BARRASSO: Chuck Schumer has been clear that they like Washington in charge. They want Washington to control the money. I'm not expecting any Democrats, if any, to joins us.

[13:55:09] BLITZER: So realistically, it's not going to go anywhere?

BARRASSO: We're continuing to work. We probably have 45, 46 Senators.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: That's not enough, though.

BARRASSO: We need to get to 50 and then the vice president. We're continuing to work on it through the end of the month.

BLITZER: What's wrong with Senator Bernie Sanders' proposal -- he has about 15 other Democrats who have co-sponsored this new legislation -- to allow the United States to have a health insurance system along the lines of every other industrialized country, whether Canada or Britain, all the countries in Europe, other countries around the world? There's comprehensive health insurance guaranteed for all citizens.

BARRASSO: Well, first of all, this is truly the litmus test for the liberal left with all of the Democrats who are looking to run for president in 2020 signing onto it. The issue is the bumper sticker is pretty good, but when you get into the specifics, the details, the nuts and the bolts, what does this actually take from someone, not what does it give them, what does it take from them in terms of the money. They've tried to do this other places and have tried in the state of California, even in Bernie Sanders' home state of Vermont. They got rid of it because they realized the costs would be --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: But it works well in the U.K. or France or Canada or other countries. You get sick, you don't have to worry about health insurance. You go to the doctor, you go to the doctor of your choice and you get treated. If it works well in all these other major industrialized countries, why wouldn't it work well here?

BARRASSO: It depends what you describe as work well. If you're a patient in England right now, realizing that the numbers are so bad for the amount of time people have to wait for an appointment, emergency room waits spiked longer than a 12-hour delay. If you have a chronic condition, 18 weeks before you get to see the doctor. In Canada, where we talk about the free care, as a surgeon in Wyoming, I have operated on people from Canada who can't afford to wait the time for a free operation. There's articles written, leaving Canada for health care, and many are coming to the United States, even though it's free, because in Canada the waits are so long. And once they spend a certain amount of money, cataract surgery, total joint replacement, for the year, they cut it off. And usually, that's around Halloween. It's why they call Canadian medicine trick-or-treat medicine.

BLITZER: What's wrong with having a system where you do have guaranteed, let's say, Medicare-For-All, for everyone, no one is going to go without health insurance and medical treatment. But at the same time, you have private insurance at the same time and perhaps you can get some better treatment. What's wrong with a double-tear system like that? BARRASSO: For senior citizens right now on Medicare, we want to make

sure we have a strong secure system for them. I think this undermines their ability to get care. Many doctors --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: -- seniors -

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: They're happy right now who are on Medicare -

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: It's a system that works for people in the United States who are 65 and older.

BARRASSO: It does work --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Why not expand it for those who are 55 and older?

BARRASSO: Because fewer and fewer doctors want to take care of Medicare patients because the reimbursement is so low. I talk to hospital administrators and they say we lose money on Medicare patients. You look at more hospitals consolidating or closing, and you undermine, I believe, the integrity of Medicare for our seniors. And that's who it was designed for. My mom is in her 90s now. The year she was born, life expectancy for a woman in this country was 56. Now it's 81. So when you go back to the old speeches of Lyndon Johnson and why they wanted to do Medicare, it was for the widows, because most of the guys by 65 were going to be dead when they set that age at 65. So I want to make sure that Medicare, which is currently being stressed financially, is there for our seniors. And I think what Bernie is proposing is going to undercut the integrity of the program.

BLITZER: It sounds like we should have a debate between you and Senator Bernie Sanders on this issue of Medicare-For-All. It could be an important discussion. What do you think?

BARRASSO: We could do it at a university, have an audience there. We could do it on CNN, live.

BLITZER: You could do it on my show.

BARRASSO: Right.

BLITZER: We could invite Senator Sanders. I'm sure he'd be ready --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Your office and his office not too far away.

(CROSSTALK) BLITZER: It might be a good opportunity and educate the public on your position, and very important differences between what he is proposing and he's going into great length. He's getting a lot of Democrats who are on board with it as well.

BARRASSO: Any Democrat want to go run for president in 2020 better sign on with Bernie because that's where the liberal left is going.

BLITZER: We'll have a good conversation. You've accepted the idea. We'll ask Senator Sanders as well.

BARRASSO: Good.

BLITZER: That's it.

Very important programming note for our viewers. Hillary Clinton will sit down with our own Anderson Cooper later tonight to talk about what went wrong in the 2016 race, as far as she's concerned. Plus, her revealing new book on the campaign and her own marriage. Tune in tonight 8:00 p.m. eastern, right here on CNN.

Our coverage continues right now.

[14:00:13] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, there. Thank you so much for being with me. I'm Brooke Baldwin.