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Trump Leaves Fate of Iran Nuclear Deal in Question; Trump's Decision on Iran Deal Nears; Creating a Safe Space for Grenfell Tower Survivors. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired October 12, 2017 - 14:00:00   ET



[14:01:05] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

For weeks now, the fate of the Iran nuclear deal has been hanging in President Trump's hand. He has told anyone who will listen that he hates

the 2015 agreement that froze Iran's nuclear program in exchange for lifting sanctions.

When the Obama administration signed the deal, congressional skeptics passed a law saying that a president had to certify Iran's compliance every

90 days. The latest deadline comes this weekend. President Trump reportedly hates having to say again and again that the deal is working

even though it is according to both the U.N. nuclear agency and America's owned military leaders.


YUKIYA AMANO, DIRECTOR GENERAL, and INTERNATIONAL ATOMIC ENERGY AGENCY: The new commitment undertaken by Iran under the JCPOA are being




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe it's in our national security interest at the present time to remain in the JCPOA? That's a yes or no question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, senator. I do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do believe the agreement to date has delayed the development of a nuclear capability by Iran.


JOSEPH DUNFORD, CHAIRMAN, U.S. JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: If President Trump decertifies the deal, despite that, it will be up to congress to decide on

new sanctions against Iran, which could scuttle the agreement all together. And allow Iran to ramp up its nuclear program again.

Iran's U.N. ambassador had this to say last night.


GHOLAMALI KHOSHROO, IRANIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: If unilaterally U.S. walk away from this deal, then who will trust America to engage in any kind

of negotiation?


AMANPOUR: Europe, Russia and China, all parties to the deal all stand by it. Even many doubters like the Israeli National Security hawks now say it

is the best option for peace right now.

Ehud Barak served as Israel's prime minister and defense minister and I spoke to him moments ago.


AMANPOUR: Prime Minister Barak, welcome to the program.


AMANPOUR: Prime minister, I need to ask you because obviously Israel's point on this issue is very, very important and they've been very public

for years on this deal.

You were not a fan in the beginning, but you have come out publicly to say that it would be even worse to get rid of it now.

BARAK: Yes. The deal we believe is a bad deal. I was very hawkish on Iran all along my service in government. On Israel point, it remains a bad

deal, but it is a done deal.

So to decertify it now, it will be throwing it to the Congress, Congress will not pull out of it. The real story is that the Iranians will be sowed

by it because other parties will not pull out, neither Chinese, Russians or the Europeans. So Iranians will keep harvesting the benefit of this deal

while the decertification will legitimize problem in the future to breakout at will and explain it to the American behavior.

AMANPOUR: Do you accept at least that it has reduced nuclear worries at this time particularly with the North Korean problem?

BARAK: Yes. First of all, it's not true that they kept the spirit of the agreement. It's true that they are keeping the left of it because of

developing of missiles, running cyber warfare or spreading terror all around the region.

These are not part of this agreement and another way should be found to pressure them on this issue. But in regard to the North Korean, we have to

bear in mind that decertifying the agreement now with Iran, will give -- will cut underneath the intention to drag the North Koreans into

negotiation. Because even if the Russian, Chinese or Europe try to convince the South Koreans -- the North Koreans to get into negotiation,

they will argue what sense it makes to negotiate with the Americans if they can pull out or decertify agreements relatively short time after they had

been signed?

[14:05:20] So it doesn't help America. That's my reason. If it would help Israel or America, I would go for it, but it doesn't help neither Israel

nor America.

AMANPOUR: Maybe for the first time ever, you and the Iranian president are on the same page when it comes to what it might mean for North Korea.

Listen to what the Iranian president told me at the U.N. shortly ago.


HASSAN ROUHANI, IRANIAN PRESIDENT: I think what the Iranian experience shows is a good experience that can be replicated elsewhere and executed

elsewhere. But keep in mind, please, that if the United States wishes to withdraw from the JCPOA, why would the North Koreans waste their time in

order to sit around the table of dialogue with the United States?


AMANPOUR: So, again, they're saying that this actually, and you've said it, really, really makes America's word almost meaningless and worthless.

BARAK: You know, I'm not on the same page with the Iranians on anything right now. What I basically argue is about timing and common sense. You

shouldn't help the Iranians, you shouldn't serve the North Korean, providing them with excuses.

They are for sure trying to walk on the footsteps of the Pakistan and North Korea into a nuclear. And the most important element is the American big

stick. America should master the intelligence, the means, the weapons and most importantly the political will to be on alert once you want to try to

break out, to stop it by using any means which end up being necessary.

AMANPOUR: Well, I was going to ask you, would Israel as some American people are saying right now, oh, it's OK, America can pull out of this and

America will use the military option along with Israel to stop Iran doing whatever it might do.

Is that what you would do?

BARAK: I don't want to dive into details. Clearly, as long as the Iranians still sticking to the letter at least of the agreement. So for

now we have to wait and look. But for sure the world led by America including Israel should be ready to do whatever it takes to block Iran from

turning nuclear.

The real damage from the North Korean plan is not that they're going to heed with nuclear weapons, America or even South Korea, that's not the

case. For them it just ensures policy for their survival. But they're already out of the stable. The Iranians are still in.

AMANPOUR: Former prime minister and former defense minister Ehud Barak, thank you very much for joining me.

BARAK: Thank you.


AMANPOUR: And now joining me Jake Sullivan. As former U.S. State Department official, he was one of those who help initiate the secret talks

leading to the Iran nuclear agreement.


AMANPOUR: So you were one of the first who secretly met with the Iranians and finally several years later, it led to this deal, but first and

foremost, how difficult was it to get this kind of deal even though it doesn't contain everything that everybody would like to see in it.

JAKE SULLIVAN, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: This was an incredibly tall mountain to climb. It wasn't just the years of

negotiations, it was all the years that led up to it.

Building a global campaign of economic pressure that brought Iran to the table, marshalling the international community through the permanent five

members of the security council plus the European Union in Germany to come to the table together and then all those long days, weeks and ultimately

years of negotiating with Iranians to produce an outcome that doesn't give us everything we would like under the sun, but it gives us everything we

need to put Iran's nuclear program in a box and to avert the threat of a nuclear armed Iran.

AMANPOUR: What do you think it would say -- well, first in terms of security, what would it mean? And what would it say to the world about

America, you know, if indeed this goes pear shaped?

SULLIVAN: The reason that that matters, the reason that's not just theoretical is in order to rally the world to enforce this deal

effectively, in order to get the world a focus on the other ways in which Iran represents a threat, we need to show our good faith. We need the

world to be more worried about the risk Tehran poses than the risk Washington poses.

And this dance around whether we're in the deal or out of the deal is putting the burden of proof on the United States rather than where it

belongs which is on Iran.

AMANPOUR: I want to just play a very important part of this because President Trump, as you know, has said it's the worst, most one-sided et

cetera deal in the history of man kind.

Today, we had on CNN Former Secretary Ernest Moniz, nuclear physicist himself and part of the negotiations. He said this was one of the most

important products of these negotiations.


[14:10:10] ERNEST MONIZ, FORMER SECRETARY OF ENERGY: The verification measures in this agreement are unprecedented precisely because the world

went into these negotiations and of course the United States as well not trusting Iran.

So the agreement is not based on trust in anyway. It is based ultimately on verification.


AMANPOUR: So there we have it. Verification. And we know perfectly well that, you know, worse kind of negotiations with North Korea ended the

verification they had.

So the question is what actually physically happens do you think if President Trump -- when President Trump decides not to certify this deal?

SULLIVAN: Well, it creates a lot of instability and uncertainty because it's at least possible and there are some around him who are advising that

if he decertifies the deal but ultimately doesn't walk away.

However, what I think happens in that circumstance is that when the United States wants to enforce aspects of the deal, wants to go to our partners to

get access to a particular site in Iran, our partners are going to doubt whether we're doing that for good reason or we're just doing it as an

excuse to leave.

Iran can start the march towards a nuclear capability that it is currently denied. And we won't be able to pull the world together to put the kind of

pressure on them that we were able to before to bring them to the table.

So that would be a lose, lose, lose for the United States and for the international community. And I think it's why I think all of us have to

work so hard to persuade the Congress and the administration not to take that kind of step.

AMANPOUR: OK. So you just mentioned Congress. It gets thrown back to Congress. They choose or decide whether or not to impose the sanctions and

that will be the sort of marker for Iran.

What do you think is the political appetite right now to re-impose sanctions on Iran?

SULLIVAN: Well, I just testified yesterday before the House Foreign Affairs Committee on this issue and the chairman of that committee who is

one of the important Republican voices, an Iran deal skeptic, said publicly he believe we should remain in the deal.

So I think when Trump triggers this congressional period where they have to make this decision, it is likely that Congress will choose not to re-impose

the sanctions.

But the other aspect of this is that Trump always has the right himself unilaterally in the executive branch to re-impose the sanctions.

So what happens after decertification is that any day he could turn around or wake up and decide today is the day I'm walking away from the deal.

So it puts this deal on a very unstable foundation once he moves forward with decertification and precisely a moment we should be solidifying the

deal, committing to it and then enforcing it to the hilt.

AMANPOUR: We will wait to see what in fact he does do and what he decides.

Jake Sullivan, former Obama administration national security official. Thanks for joining us tonight.

SULLIVAN: Thanks for having me.


AMANPOUR: When we come back another big star the American icon and Hollywood legend Jane Fonda in the studio talking about the golden age of

her own stardom and the Harvey Weinstein scandal.

Subject to police instigation right here in London. That's next.


AMANPOUR: When we come back, another big story. The American icon and Hollywood legend Jane Fonda is in the studio. She's talking about the

golden age of her own stardom and the Harvey Weinstein scandal that is now subject to police investigation right here in London. That's next.



CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Joining me now, Jane Fonda.


Well, welcome to the program. You are really, I want to show you, in the full flush of youth. You are doing new films. They've been critically


What made you want to do a love story now?

FONDA: Well, you know, old people can fall in love, too, especially when it's my pal, Robert Redford. He bought the book, "Our Souls at Night," by

Ken Haruf. It's a wonderful story. And he was smart enough to ask me to be in it with him.

Smart because, you know, we have such a long history. This is the fourth movie we have done together. And this is about two old people in a tiny

town in Colorado, who kind of know each other.

So the fact that we actually have a history together made it easier to get comfortable in the roles and people just love this movie.

Well, and you, as the older lead, you actually were very bold. You go up to him, you knock on the door and you say, "I have a proposal for you."

Fill in the blanks.

FONDA: I -- after months and months of fretting about it -- that's before the movie begins -- I decide to go over and say to him, would you sleep

with me? What do you think?

Come over to my house and sleep with me.

And then he reacts really weird. I say it's not about sex, no, it's just I'm lonely. She's been a widow, he's a widow. I need someone to just --

to lay in bed and talk. Nights are the worst.

And he says he'll think about it and then he does and it's what we do. We -- our souls at night. We lie in bed and we talk and we bare our souls and

that's how relationships should start. You know, I realized during the movie why just -- we don't we always do this to begin relationships?

AMANPOUR: That's a good idea.

FONDA: Instead of falling for each other and then who knows who is who because we're fallen and we're face down. And this way, we ease into a


AMANPOUR: I want to drag you to a rather unfortunate, in fact, horrendous story that's going on in Hollywood right now and then we'll get back into

the films because you're talking about people falling in love and the legitimize sexual and intimate relations between people.

So what has been your reaction to the allegations now by more and more Hollywood actresses against Harvey Weinstein?

FONDA: I'm glad it's coming out. I'm so proud of those fellow actors that are speaking up and I know that it's taken a long time. It's a very, very,

very, hard thing to do. You don't get anything out of it as the person who has been victimized. But it's important that it come out.

But let's not think that this is some unique, horrific -- this goes on all the time.

AMANPOUR: In Hollywood?

FONDA: It's this male entitlement -- in Hollywood and everywhere, in offices and businesses all over the world; in bars, in restaurants, in

stores, women are assaulted, abused, harassed and seen for just being sexual objects, there for a man's desire instead of as whole human beings.

AMANPOUR: Did that ever happen to you?

FONDA: It has happened to me. It has. I only met Harvey when I was old. And Harvey goes for young because that's more vulnerable. You know. But

it's very, very common. Bill Cosby, you know, another example of Hollywood. But, you know, Dominique --

AMANPOUR: Strauss-Kahn.

FONDA: Strauss-Kahn --

AMANPOUR: And the IMF --

FONDA: -- for example. He's not in Hollywood. But this is not unique. This goes on at the most horrendous high levels.

AMANPOUR: What do you think Hollywood men should do right now, studio heads, leading actors?

Because it can't just be the women who have to be brave enough, especially, as you say, most of them were young, fledgling careers.

FONDA: Yes. We have to be helped by men. It's important to know that not all men are predators. There are good men and the good men have to

stand up and defend us and embody other ways of being.

We have to believe the women who come forward. We have to speak out. I found out about Harvey about a year ago and I'm ashamed that I didn't say

anything right then.

AMANPOUR: Why didn't you?

You're so bold.

FONDA: I was not that bold because I guess it hadn't happened to me and so I didn't feel it was my place.

AMANPOUR: What did you know?

FONDA: One of the women who has spoken out, Rosanna Arquette, told me. And it came as a shock and a great disappointment.

AMANPOUR: You said it happened to you, obviously not with Harvey Weinstein but in your youth.

FONDA: You want me to give you a example?

I -- very first French film that I made, the director didn't speak very good English and he flew to L.A. to pitch me the story, which was hard for

me to even understand what the story was.

But I remember him saying to me -- and I was 20 -- he said to me, you know, in the movie, your character has to have an orgasm and I really need to

know what kind of orgasms you have. And so he wanted me to sleep with him.

AMANPOUR: That subtle?


AMANPOUR: That is unbelievable.

FONDA: Well, it shouldn't be. I mean, that kind of thing goes on. And I turned him down. I got the part anyway. And he was -- you know, he was

very nice after that.

AMANPOUR: So what would you actually say to young actresses right now who feel that they can't turn down a Harvey Weinstein or whoever it is because

of the part?

You obviously did and you are a megastar.

FONDA: You have to say no. You have to understand that you have control over your body and that you have to say no and you have to talk and tell

when something like that happens.

If we all talked and told, then they would be too afraid to do it, I think. I hope.

AMANPOUR: That is a very good lesson.

FONDA: But I mean Donald Trump is -- we have a man who is president who does these things. And what kind of a message does that say?

Unfortunately, that counteracts a lot of the good that we're doing because a lot of men see, well, our president does it and he got elected, even

after people discovered that he was an abuser so I'm just going to go ahead and do what I want to do.

It's unacceptable and we can't ever forget that and we have to stand up to them.

AMANPOUR: And we'll have much more of that incredibly revealing interview tomorrow as we dig deeper into Fonda's story life and her career.

But after a break now imagine trying to build a new life from the ashes of your old one. We check in with the Grenfell Tower survivors four months

after one of the worst fires in modern British history.


[14:26:18] AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, four months since the fast and furious fire that engulfed Grenfell Tower here in London within minutes

killing dozens of people, only ten of the hundreds of dispossessed families have been permanently relocated. Many of them still live in hotels and

they are struggling to recover from the trauma.

But tonight we imagine the volunteers and the campaigners who are building a safe space for the families if not on the wrong side of the tracks

literally underneath them.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are days when I'm broken. Being amongst the community helps me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone is in trauma. Everyone is in trauma. Like it's a trauma zone. You can feel it when you come in on the train. You

know it's like walking into a bubble and everyone is like experiencing it in one way or another, and even if you come down here for like half a day

you feel it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Past go past and then you've got the train that goes past and the dust from the building blows up in the air and we're covered

in the remains and ashes of our loved ones and people.

People are crying. People are traumatized. Scared to come out of their house. Some are actually scared to stay in the house. At night time

around here, people are scared to sleep in the hotels. We'll come and hang out around here. There'll be volunteers here and they will talk to people,

just to make sure that they are safe through the night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone asks actually I can do that as well and I can contribute to that and I can make that happen. And bit by bit this thing

just evolves and then suddenly there was a chest club and like there was a kids' area and a library and I was like, OK, we're just OK on developing


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's a positive affirmation and also to see something actually grow. Even the mural behind here, that's therapeutic as

well. People come and write their messages. People come and say what they feel that they need to say.


AMANPOUR: A reminder that the government needs to keep the promises it made in the aftermath of that devastating fire.

And that is it for our program tonight. Remember that you can always listen to our podcast, see us online at and follow me on

Facebook and Twitter.

Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.