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PRIMETIME JUSTICE WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Death by Teen Prank. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired October 25, 2017 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST (voice-over): A 911 call that has the nation talking.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think someone killed my wife.

911 OPERATOR: You think someone killed your wife?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. It looks like she has stab wounds on her back.

BANFIELD: A man says he came home to find his wife slaughtered.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her face hit the ground, and there`s blood -- there`s a pool of blood.

BANFIELD: He says it`s not the first time they`ve been targeted.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, we`ve asked people to watch our frickin` area. We`ve had people attempt to break in just this week.

BANFIELD: And he`s holding police responsible.

911 OPERATOR: All right --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know what`s going on in this city but (EXPLETIVE DELETED). You people dropped the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) ball.

BANFIELD: But does all his talk of break-ins help to find the killer?

They thought it was a prank.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just don`t understand how somebody could just go out like that and think it`s fun.

BANFIELD: Teen boys throwing rocks from an overpass.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re playing Russian roulette with people`s lives.

BANFIELD: They even had a name for it, "dinging."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) a good man and a good father (INAUDIBLE)!

BANFIELD: But now five kids are facing an adult murder rap.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t give them enough punishment.

BANFIELD: Should these kids go to prison for life?

Did an ex-girlfriend want to get even?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A young lady started a fire in the house.

BANFIELD: Flooding and burning her ex-boyfriend`s home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She started a fire. Expedite the units.

BANFIELD: Police say her rampage sent her --

911 OPERATOR: She stabbed you with a knife?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Expedite those units.

BANFIELD: Right into the arms of a neighborhood lawman.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) that, too.

BANFIELD: Tonight, that deputy speaks out about the battle that got him stabbed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stabbed me.

BANFIELD: A bloody body pinned to a tree, another thrown to the grass. Fatal car crash or Halloween hijinks? The neighbors are calling the cops,

saying the crime scene goes too far.

And a bank robbery goes off the rails thanks to a man that makes surveillance video look more like a football game. We`ve got the video.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is PRIMETIME JUSTICE.

There but for the grace of God go I, and you and probably a lot of other people you know because let`s be frank tonight, we were all young and

stupid at least once. But a night of pranks in Michigan has landed five teenage boys in jail and life as they know it may be all but over. It

seemed they thought it was fun to throw projectiles off an overpass into oncoming traffic below. At least 20 times, they tossed rocks, a car tire,

even a piston from two different overpasses. And one of the rocks they threw police say weighed six pounds and hit a van traveling below.

Inside that van was Kenneth White in the passenger seat headed home from work. And when that rock came crashing through the windshield, it hit

Kenneth in the face and in the head and in the chest and it killed him. Kenneth White was engaged to be married and he`s the father of four

children.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AIMEE CAGLE, KEN WHITE`S GIRLFRIEND: They took a good man and a good father. They took away a child`s father and the love of my life. And this

stupid act took away a life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Those teenagers are paying a very steep price for that prank. They are all charged as adults, each of them sitting in that courtroom

stoic. They are all facing second-degree murder. And yes, that is a charge that can carry life in prison.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID LEYTON, GENESSEE COUNTY PROSECUTOR: These particular individuals knowingly created a very high risk of death or great bodily harm, knowing

that death or such harm would be the likely result of his actions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Ah, notice the prosecutor`s saying "his" actions. The "he" is 17-year-old Kyle Anger (ph), who police think was the person who actually

threw the rock that killed Kenneth White, and that`s something the other boys` lawyers may just be able to use to help their clients.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERWIN MEIERS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think, as you`re going to find out during the course of the testimony, that there`s going to be different

levels of culpability of each participant.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: James Felton is a reporter with CNN affiliate WNEM and he joins me from Flint, Michigan, tonight.

James, this is such a sad story on so many levels because someone is dead tonight, a father of four, and five kids -- I mean, honestly, kids, 17, 16,

16, 15 and 15 -- may never see the light of day again. Where do they stand with this case right now?

JAMES FELTON, WNEM: Yes, that`s right. Well, they just were arraigned yesterday and they`re due back in court in November. But right now, four

of those kids are all lodged in the juvenile detention center, from what we`re told. And 17-year-old Kyle Anger, the one who authorities believe is

the one who threw the rock that killed Kenneth White, he is in the county jail right now. And of course, they`re all waiting for the legal process

to play out.

Meanwhile, there`s nothing but anger in this community. Everybody I`ve talked to -- I`ve been on this story since (INAUDIBLE) it first broke out.

Everybody`s angry. Everybody wants first-degree murder charges against these folks. They are worried -- people in the community are worried that

these kids are only going to get a slap on the wrist and they do not want to see that happen.

BANFIELD: It doesn`t help, James, also that these kids, apparently -- after all of this, the police say they went to McDonald`s and that`s how

they ended their evening, going to McDonald`s as though there was nothing wrong.

FELTON: Yes, that`s right, and that`s another thing that people are very angry about. In fact, I ran that sound bite in one of my stories when we

covered the press conference earlier this week where the authorities made a point to let people know that is what these kids allegedly did, was go to

McDonald`s after they got done throwing up to 20 rocks on I-75. And you know, they might have known they killed somebody at that time, or not.

Still -- but again, this shows what investigators say is how callous they were with their actions to feel good enough to go out to eat after they

were done with this alleged act.

BANFIELD: James, stand by if you will. I want to bring in a Sheriff Robert Pickell. He is with the office of the Genessee County sheriff. He

joins me from Flint, Michigan, tonight. Sheriff, thank you so much for being here.

I want to get your feeling on this because, obviously, you just heard James reporting that the community is angry. They want first-degree murder

charges. On the other hand, these were kids. And they may not have been out to murder someone that night, but ultimately, their actions led to the

tragic death of a father of four.

How did you investigate this and where do you stand with the material, the evidence that you`ve been able to pull together on this case?

SHERIFF ROBERT PICKELL, OFFICE OF GENESSEE COUNTY SHERIFF (via telephone): Well, we got the call from 911 about 8:42 PM on the 18th of October. And

then when the first car arrived on the scene (INAUDIBLE) driving up, he saw four other cars on the shoulder of the road. And when he got to the fifth

car, it was the car with the victim in it, and he just could see that there was just massive damage to his face, head and chest area.

And we called a paramedic and the paramedics were on scene, along with an ambulance, and he was pronounced dead shortly thereafter.

The four other cars that were there, none of the drivers had injuries to their person, but there was varying degrees of damage to the cars, to the

undercarriage of the cars, the tires were broken off, tires were flattened, and there was debris of rocks all over the I-75 highway, along with a

piston- that -- an engine piston. There was other debris, stones, wood and --

BANFIELD: We`re looking at some of the aftermath as you tell us this, Sheriff. I do have this question. Since it`s been reported that these

boys, all five of them, went off and had a meal at McDonald`s, I`m guessing that the scene that we`re seeing on television right now played out after

they had left the scene. How did you find these five?

PICKELL: Well, we immediately called out all of our detectives and we started asking questions. We started talking to people. We had certain

witnesses and we developed certain leads. And I don`t want to go into, you know, the detail of how we did that. That`ll come out later on. But we

were able to talk to one of the people that told us that such -- you know, that one of the youth was responsible, and we went to the school

(INAUDIBLE) high school, we talked to two or three people there and --

BANFIELD: So it was detective work that brought them in. Can I ask you -- did any of these kids -- apparently -- We were told one of the defendants

turned himself in. But did any of them offer up information right away? First to the well usually gets treated the best. That`s the way it works.

Did anybody start talking right away?

PICKELL: Well, I can`t get into that detail. You know, I don`t want to provide information that will come out later. I don`t want to give the

defense attorneys, you know, the opportunity. They`ll learn this later on as we go through the legal process.

But when we talk about the one person that turned himself in right away, we called the attorney and the attorney said that he would turn him in. We

knew who he was. We developed it from our investigation. And within a half hour, the attorney did have him down to the jail where he was lodged

after some questioning.

BANFIELD: It`s hard looking at these pictures of five teenage boys emotionless in that courtroom. Did you have a chance to see, meet or speak

with any of these five?

PICKELL: I did not. I did not.

But you know, let me say, Ashleigh, I`m not unmindful of their tender years. Two of them are 15, two 16 and one 17-year-old. And I might add

the prosecutor is not unmindful of it. I mean, we`re both parents. The prosecutor and I are both parents, we`re both grandparents.

And you know, I think it was you that said it early on in the program, but for the grace of God, there go I. And I think every parent thinks, My God,

what if my child did that? You know, you couldn`t relate to it.

On the other hand, the prosecutor, David Leyton, is not some wild right- winger. You know, he`s been the prosecutor for 12 years. And the thing I really respect about him, he understands the difference between someone

that made a mistake and someone that`s a criminal. And we talked about it at great length. And when he did charge -- or at a press conference, he

was announcing the charges, he told the press that were there the jury instructions, the Michigan jury instructions, what a judge reads to a jury

just before they go out to deliberate what second-degree murder is, and all of the facts from this case and the deliberate, intentional throwing of the

rocks --

BANFIELD: It matches.

PICKELL: -- it`s the appropriate charge.

BANFIELD: I hear you. I mean, I hear you, Sheriff. The law is the law, and I hear you when you say, you know, if you`re the parent of these kids,

you want to shake them and tell them they`ve done the stupidest thing in their life, but this is bigger than that.

I want you to hold that thought for a moment because I want to bring in Frank Manley, if I can. He`s the attorney for the 16-year-old suspect

named Mark Sekelsky, and he joins me from Flint. Frank, thank you for being here.

FRANK J. MANLEY, ATTORNEY FOR TEEN SUSPECT MARK SEKELSKY: Yes, my mom calls me Franky, too, so --

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: I appreciate you being on with us. This is not an easy situation for anybody in this case, you know, let alone the victim`s family

and four children who`ve lost their father tonight.

MANLEY: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: And that can`t be lost in all of this. There are many children affected.

MANLEY: No, it`s not lost in any of it. But what you have to understand is, right now, we`re long on emotion and short on facts. There`s a public

feeding frenzy that`s going on because of the unique nature of this.

But you have to understand my job is to protect my client. One size does not fit all. The idea that you could charge all these children with the

exact same crime, when the prosecutor himself said they believe it`s one person that threw the rock that caused the fatality. He also said that --

I`m paraphrasing, but he didn`t think there was any intent to kill anybody.

BANFIELD: Sure. That`s the second-degree issue. But you know what, Frank? You are a lawyer. You know darn well what conspiracy is, and it`s

when five people all agree to do something, then they are all part of the spokes in the wheel. And so, ultimately, the way it works --

(CROSSTALK)

MANLEY: They`re also aware of the fact that nobody`s said that more than one person did it. You`re also aware of the fact that nobody said that

these people agreed on anything. There`s a public acceptance because somebody says it out there, somebody has a press conference that says that

everybody`s agreed. Has there been anything that`s been presented in a court of law? Has anybody cross-examined anyone --

BANFIELD: Has your client, Mark -- has your client, Mark, pointed the finger at anybody else in this group of five?

(CROSSTALK)

MANLEY: The prosecutor presented that. They know who did this.

BANFIELD: Did your client?

MANLEY: They know absolutely --

BANFIELD: Did your client come to the well early? This is often how it works in a conspiracy. Those who speak out first and agree to testify

against the others often do much better. It is a way to mitigate a horrible situation for your client. Is that what happened with Mark?

MANLEY: Absolutely true, if, in fact, my client did something. You in yourself, in your intro, you said "they." How you do know they? You said

all. How do you know all?

BANFIELD: Well, all of them have been charged with second-degree murder, and I`m asking you what your client (INAUDIBLE)

MANLEY: Because they`ve been charged, that means they`re guilty?

BANFIELD: No, I`m asking you. What does your client say?

MANLEY: My position is that they`ve rushed to judgment. I don`t know that there`s been any evidence that anybody dropped a rock besides the one

person. I don`t know. I hear lots of generalities. I hear lots of conclusions. And what I`m worried about is just what you said. What if

somebody didn`t? What if somebody acted under duress? What if somebody dropped a pebble somewhere else? What if or somebody was bullied into a

situation? Do we know this?

BANFIELD: No, I do not know, and neither does my audience.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Did Mark -- did you -- well (INAUDIBLE) Did your client, Mark, tell his story and tell anything about the other four? Did he implicate

the other four in that crime?

MANLEY: Well, certainly, you know attorney-client privilege that I would not be able to answer that. And certainly -- you know, I`ve probably done

35,000 criminal cases. Every case is different. So when you say that the first one that goes down and tells on other people gets a better deal --

not necessarily. What if they`re not telling the truth? What if they`ve been offered something? I mean, criminal justice is littered with cases,

DNA cases where people have been almost put to death, and everybody`s sure they did it.

BANFIELD: Well, I appreciate it.

(CROSSTALK)

MANLEY: And I mean -- you`re in -- you`re in New York City. The wilding case in Central Park --

BANFIELD: Well, now we`re getting --

MANLEY: -- everybody was sure they did it.

BANFIELD: -- but I do want to thank you for being on tonight. We`re going to watch this case. I think that all five of those boys are in a

world of hurt, and as are their families, but let`s not forget the family of Kenneth White as well. There are a lot of people who are mired in this

tragedy. Frank Manley, thanks for being on tonight. I do appreciate your time.

We`re going to watch that story for you.

i also want to take you back to Tampa because we`ve been following that story in Tampa where the search is continuing for that possible serial

killer wanted in the shooting deaths of three people. The mayor, Bob Buckhorn, has been rallying his officers, and this is how he said

(INAUDIBLE) George Will called, very dramatic moment, almost made for television. This is how the mayor, Bob Buckhorn, promised to take back

the streets of Tampa. Have a look.

Do we have that? We do not have that moment for you. I apologize. But it was quite something, the mayor saying to those police officers during roll

call, Bring me his head, whoever that person is. Not necessarily calling him a serial killer right now, but for all intents and purposes, it sure

looks that way given the fact pattern of that crime.

Coming up, a husband comes home to find his wife stabbed to death on the floor.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t believe this. We`ve had a break-in all year and things have been stolen and missing. We`ve had people trying to break

in our house (INAUDIBLE) like, a lot. They have trashed our cameras. We`re getting targeted and I don`t like who the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is

doing. I`m pissed.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Well, maybe he`s pissed because his family has called the police at least a half dozen times about attempted break-ins, sketchy people all

around the neighborhood. But very unusual call considering his wife was lying before him and bleeding to death.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

2020 (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST (voice-over): A 911 call that has the nation talking.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think someone killed my wife.

911 OPERATOR: You think someone killed your wife?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. It looks like she has stab wounds on her back.

BANFIELD: A man says he came home to find his wife slaughtered.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her face hit the ground, and there`s blood -- there`s a pool of blood.

BANFIELD: He says it`s not the first time they`ve been targeted.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, we`ve asked people to watch our frickin` area. We`ve had people attempt to break in just this week.

BANFIELD: And he`s holding police responsible.

911 OPERATOR: All right --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know what`s going on in this city but (EXPLETIVE DELETED). You people dropped the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) ball.

BANFIELD: But does all his talk of break-ins help to find the killer?

They thought it was a prank.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just don`t understand how somebody could just go out like that and think it`s fun.

BANFIELD: Teen boys throwing rocks from an overpass.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re playing Russian roulette with people`s lives.

BANFIELD: They even had a name for it, "dinging."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) a good man and a good father (INAUDIBLE)!

BANFIELD: But now five kids are facing an adult murder rap.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t give them enough punishment.

BANFIELD: Should these kids go to prison for life?

Did an ex-girlfriend want to get even?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A young lady started a fire in the house.

BANFIELD: Flooding and burning her ex-boyfriend`s home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She started a fire. Expedite the units.

BANFIELD: Police say her rampage sent her --

911 OPERATOR: She stabbed you with a knife?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Expedite those units.

BANFIELD: Right into the arms of a neighborhood lawman.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) that, too.

BANFIELD: Tonight, that deputy speaks out about the battle that got him stabbed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stabbed me.

BANFIELD: A bloody body pinned to a tree, another thrown to the grass. Fatal car crash or Halloween hijinks? The neighbors are calling the cops,

saying the crime scene goes too far.

And a bank robbery goes off the rails thanks to a man that makes surveillance video look more like a football game. We`ve got the video.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is PRIMETIME JUSTICE.

There but for the grace of God go I, and you and probably a lot of other people you know because let`s be frank tonight, we were all young and

stupid at least once. But a night of pranks in Michigan has landed five teenage boys in jail and life as they know it may be all but over. It

seemed they thought it was fun to throw projectiles off an overpass into oncoming traffic below. At least 20 times, they tossed rocks, a car tire,

even a piston from two different overpasses. And one of the rocks they threw police say weighed six pounds and hit a van traveling below.

Inside that van was Kenneth White in the passenger seat headed home from work. And when that rock came crashing through the windshield, it hit

Kenneth in the face and in the head and in the chest and it killed him. Kenneth White was engaged to be married and he`s the father of four

children.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AIMEE CAGLE, KEN WHITE`S GIRLFRIEND: They took a good man and a good father. They took away a child`s father and the love of my life. And this

stupid act took away a life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Those teenagers are paying a very steep price for that prank. They are all charged as adults, each of them sitting in that courtroom

stoic. They are all facing second-degree murder. And yes, that is a charge that can carry life in prison.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID LEYTON, GENESSEE COUNTY PROSECUTOR: These particular individuals knowingly created a very high risk of death or great bodily harm, knowing

that death or such harm would be the likely result of his actions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Ah, notice the prosecutor`s saying "his" actions. The "he" is 17-year-old Kyle Anger (ph), who police think was the person who actually

threw the rock that killed Kenneth White, and that`s something the other boys` lawyers may just be able to use to help their clients.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERWIN MEIERS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think, as you`re going to find out during the course of the testimony, that there`s going to be different

levels of culpability of each participant.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: James Felton is a reporter with CNN affiliate WNEM and he joins me from Flint, Michigan, tonight.

James, this is such a sad story on so many levels because someone is dead tonight, a father of four, and five kids -- I mean, honestly, kids, 17, 16,

16, 15 and 15 -- may never see the light of day again. Where do they stand with this case right now?

JAMES FELTON, WNEM: Yes, that`s right. Well, they just were arraigned yesterday and they`re due back in court in November. But right now, four

of those kids are all lodged in the juvenile detention center, from what we`re told. And 17-year-old Kyle Anger, the one who authorities believe is

the one who threw the rock that killed Kenneth White, he is in the county jail right now. And of course, they`re all waiting for the legal process

to play out.

Meanwhile, there`s nothing but anger in this community. Everybody I`ve talked to -- I`ve been on this story since (INAUDIBLE) it first broke out.

Everybody`s angry. Everybody wants first-degree murder charges against these folks. They are worried -- people in the community are worried that

these kids are only going to get a slap on the wrist and they do not want to see that happen.

BANFIELD: It doesn`t help, James, also that these kids, apparently -- after all of this, the police say they went to McDonald`s and that`s how

they ended their evening, going to McDonald`s as though there was nothing wrong.

FELTON: Yes, that`s right, and that`s another thing that people are very angry about. In fact, I ran that sound bite in one of my stories when we

covered the press conference earlier this week where the authorities made a point to let people know that is what these kids allegedly did, was go to

McDonald`s after they got done throwing up to 20 rocks on I-75. And you know, they might have known they killed somebody at that time, or not.

Still -- but again, this shows what investigators say is how callous they were with their actions to feel good enough to go out to eat after they

were done with this alleged act.

BANFIELD: James, stand by if you will. I want to bring in a Sheriff Robert Pickell. He is with the office of the Genessee County sheriff. He

joins me from Flint, Michigan, tonight. Sheriff, thank you so much for being here.

I want to get your feeling on this because, obviously, you just heard James reporting that the community is angry. They want first-degree murder

charges. On the other hand, these were kids. And they may not have been out to murder someone that night, but ultimately, their actions led to the

tragic death of a father of four.

How did you investigate this and where do you stand with the material, the evidence that you`ve been able to pull together on this case?

SHERIFF ROBERT PICKELL, OFFICE OF GENESSEE COUNTY SHERIFF (via telephone): Well, we got the call from 911 about 8:42 PM on the 18th of October. And

then when the first car arrived on the scene (INAUDIBLE) driving up, he saw four other cars on the shoulder of the road. And when he got to the fifth

car, it was the car with the victim in it, and he just could see that there was just massive damage to his face, head and chest area.

And we called a paramedic and the paramedics were on scene, along with an ambulance, and he was pronounced dead shortly thereafter.

The four other cars that were there, none of the drivers had injuries to their person, but there was varying degrees of damage to the cars, to the

undercarriage of the cars, the tires were broken off, tires were flattened, and there was debris of rocks all over the I-75 highway, along with a

piston- that -- an engine piston. There was other debris, stones, wood and --

BANFIELD: We`re looking at some of the aftermath as you tell us this, Sheriff. I do have this question. Since it`s been reported that these

boys, all five of them, went off and had a meal at McDonald`s, I`m guessing that the scene that we`re seeing on television right now played out after

they had left the scene. How did you find these five?

PICKELL: Well, we immediately called out all of our detectives and we started asking questions. We started talking to people. We had certain

witnesses and we developed certain leads. And I don`t want to go into, you know, the detail of how we did that. That`ll come out later on. But we

were able to talk to one of the people that told us that such -- you know, that one of the youth was responsible, and we went to the school

(INAUDIBLE) high school, we talked to two or three people there and --

BANFIELD: So it was detective work that brought them in. Can I ask you -- did any of these kids -- apparently -- We were told one of the defendants

turned himself in. But did any of them offer up information right away? First to the well usually gets treated the best. That`s the way it works.

Did anybody start talking right away?

PICKELL: Well, I can`t get into that detail. You know, I don`t want to provide information that will come out later. I don`t want to give the

defense attorneys, you know, the opportunity. They`ll learn this later on as we go through the legal process.

But when we talk about the one person that turned himself in right away, we called the attorney and the attorney said that he would turn him in. We

knew who he was. We developed it from our investigation. And within a half hour, the attorney did have him down to the jail where he was lodged

after some questioning.

BANFIELD: It`s hard looking at these pictures of five teenage boys emotionless in that courtroom. Did you have a chance to see, meet or speak

with any of these five?

PICKELL: I did not. I did not.

But you know, let me say, Ashleigh, I`m not unmindful of their tender years. Two of them are 15, two 16 and one 17-year-old. And I might add

the prosecutor is not unmindful of it. I mean, we`re both parents. The prosecutor and I are both parents, we`re both grandparents.

And you know, I think it was you that said it early on in the program, but for the grace of God, there go I. And I think every parent thinks, My God,

what if my child did that? You know, you couldn`t relate to it.

On the other hand, the prosecutor, David Leyton, is not some wild right- winger. You know, he`s been the prosecutor for 12 years. And the thing I really respect about him, he understands the difference between someone

that made a mistake and someone that`s a criminal. And we talked about it at great length. And when he did charge -- or at a press conference, he

was announcing the charges, he told the press that were there the jury instructions, the Michigan jury instructions, what a judge reads to a jury

just before they go out to deliberate what second-degree murder is, and all of the facts from this case and the deliberate, intentional throwing of the

rocks --

BANFIELD: It matches.

PICKELL: -- it`s the appropriate charge.

BANFIELD: I hear you. I mean, I hear you, Sheriff. The law is the law, and I hear you when you say, you know, if you`re the parent of these kids,

you want to shake them and tell them they`ve done the stupidest thing in their life, but this is bigger than that.

I want you to hold that thought for a moment because I want to bring in Frank Manley, if I can. He`s the attorney for the 16-year-old suspect

named Mark Sekelsky, and he joins me from Flint. Frank, thank you for being here.

FRANK J. MANLEY, ATTORNEY FOR TEEN SUSPECT MARK SEKELSKY: Yes, my mom calls me Franky, too, so --

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: I appreciate you being on with us. This is not an easy situation for anybody in this case, you know, let alone the victim`s family

and four children who`ve lost their father tonight.

MANLEY: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: And that can`t be lost in all of this. There are many children affected.

MANLEY: No, it`s not lost in any of it. But what you have to understand is, right now, we`re long on emotion and short on facts. There`s a public

feeding frenzy that`s going on because of the unique nature of this.

But you have to understand my job is to protect my client. One size does not fit all. The idea that you could charge all these children with the

exact same crime, when the prosecutor himself said they believe it`s one person that threw the rock that caused the fatality. He also said that --

I`m paraphrasing, but he didn`t think there was any intent to kill anybody.

BANFIELD: Sure. That`s the second-degree issue. But you know what, Frank? You are a lawyer. You know darn well what conspiracy is, and it`s

when five people all agree to do something, then they are all part of the spokes in the wheel. And so, ultimately, the way it works --

(CROSSTALK)

MANLEY: They`re also aware of the fact that nobody`s said that more than one person did it. You`re also aware of the fact that nobody said that

these people agreed on anything. There`s a public acceptance because somebody says it out there, somebody has a press conference that says that

everybody`s agreed. Has there been anything that`s been presented in a court of law? Has anybody cross-examined anyone --

BANFIELD: Has your client, Mark -- has your client, Mark, pointed the finger at anybody else in this group of five?

(CROSSTALK)

MANLEY: The prosecutor presented that. They know who did this.

BANFIELD: Did your client?

MANLEY: They know absolutely --

BANFIELD: Did your client come to the well early? This is often how it works in a conspiracy. Those who speak out first and agree to testify

against the others often do much better. It is a way to mitigate a horrible situation for your client. Is that what happened with Mark?

MANLEY: Absolutely true, if, in fact, my client did something. You in yourself, in your intro, you said "they." How you do know they? You said

all. How do you know all?

BANFIELD: Well, all of them have been charged with second-degree murder, and I`m asking you what your client (INAUDIBLE)

MANLEY: Because they`ve been charged, that means they`re guilty?

BANFIELD: No, I`m asking you. What does your client say?

MANLEY: My position is that they`ve rushed to judgment. I don`t know that there`s been any evidence that anybody dropped a rock besides the one

person. I don`t know. I hear lots of generalities. I hear lots of conclusions. And what I`m worried about is just what you said. What if

somebody didn`t? What if somebody acted under duress? What if somebody dropped a pebble somewhere else? What if or somebody was bullied into a

situation? Do we know this?

BANFIELD: No, I do not know, and neither does my audience.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Did Mark -- did you -- well (INAUDIBLE) Did your client, Mark, tell his story and tell anything about the other four? Did he implicate

the other four in that crime?

MANLEY: Well, certainly, you know attorney-client privilege that I would not be able to answer that. And certainly -- you know, I`ve probably done

35,000 criminal cases. Every case is different. So when you say that the first one that goes down and tells on other people gets a better deal --

not necessarily. What if they`re not telling the truth? What if they`ve been offered something? I mean, criminal justice is littered with cases,

DNA cases where people have been almost put to death, and everybody`s sure they did it.

BANFIELD: Well, I appreciate it.

(CROSSTALK)

MANLEY: And I mean -- you`re in -- you`re in New York City. The wilding case in Central Park --

BANFIELD: Well, now we`re getting --

MANLEY: -- everybody was sure they did it.

BANFIELD: -- but I do want to thank you for being on tonight. We`re going to watch this case. I think that all five of those boys are in a

world of hurt, and as are their families, but let`s not forget the family of Kenneth White as well. There are a lot of people who are mired in this

tragedy. Frank Manley, thanks for being on tonight. I do appreciate your time.

We`re going to watch that story for you.

i also want to take you back to Tampa because we`ve been following that story in Tampa where the search is continuing for that possible serial

killer wanted in the shooting deaths of three people. The mayor, Bob Buckhorn, has been rallying his officers, and this is how he said

(INAUDIBLE) George Will called, very dramatic moment, almost made for television. This is how the mayor, Bob Buckhorn, promised to take back

the streets of Tampa. Have a look.

Do we have that? We do not have that moment for you. I apologize. But it was quite something, the mayor saying to those police officers during roll

call, Bring me his head, whoever that person is. Not necessarily calling him a serial killer right now, but for all intents and purposes, it sure

looks that way, given the fact pattern of that crime.

Coming up, a husband comes home to find his wife stabbed to death on the floor.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t believe this. We`ve had a break-in all year and things have been stolen and missing. We`ve had people trying to break

in our house (INAUDIBLE) like, a lot. They have trashed our cameras. We`re getting targeted and I don`t like who the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is

doing. I`m pissed.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Well, maybe he`s pissed because his family has called the police at least a half dozen times about attempted break-ins, sketchy people all

around the neighborhood. But very unusual call considering his wife was lying before him and bleeding to death.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: "I think some one killed my wife." Those are words that make the spine stiffen for even the most seasoned 911 operator, but that`s the

call that came into dispatch near Cleveland, Ohio, where a man says his wife, a beloved teacher and a mother of three, was lying on the floor in

front of him, stabbed in the back. Here`s the call.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: 911, what`s the city of your emergency?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Strongsville, Ohio. We have people on the way already. I think someone killed my wife.

911 OPERATOR: You think someone killed your wife?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. It looks like she has stab wounds on her back. We`ve had people trying to break in our house all year, stealing shit.

911 OPERATOR: Sir, I need to ask you questions, OK? Are you there right now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just got in the door with my new son-in-law. My son (DELETED) was here with her.

911 OPERATOR: OK. Sir, what I want you to do is walk outside and stay in the front, OK? You said she`s stabbed in the back?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I don`t want to --

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think she`s -- her face hit the ground, and there`s blood, there`s a pool of blood.

911 OPERATOR: Can you see if she`s breathing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, she is not.

(CROSSTALK)

911 OPERATOR: Do you think you could start CPR?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

911 OPERATOR: OK, what I want you to do is I want you to go outside, everyone in the house go outside and wait in the front, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: Do you see anyone else in the home?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My son (DELETED) was here. He has Down syndrome. She was supposed to -- she sent me a text to meet me at Brew Kettle at 4:25. I

didn`t hear from her. I didn`t expect this shit. What the --

911 OPERATOR: Sir, I understand you`re upset, but where`s (DELETED) at in the home?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s outside with our son-in-law. You know, we`ve asked people to watch our frickin` area. We`ve had people attempt to break

in just this week!

911 OPERATOR: Sir --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know what`s going on in this city --

911 OPERATOR: Sir --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- but the tough shit isn`t getting done here!

911 OPERATOR: I understand you`re upset, but can you give me your name, please?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you people dropped the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) ball.

911 OPERATOR: Sir, can you just take a deep breath? Is there any --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This whole city`s getting freaking taken over.

911 OPERATOR: Sir, I understand you`re upset, but I need you to stay focused, OK? You don`t think you can perform CPR, correct?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s in the kitchen. I can`t believe this. We`ve had a break-in all year. Things were stolen and missing.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To the left. I saw this chair down.

911 OPERATOR: You said she`s in the kitchen? She is in the kitchen?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was that (INAUDIBLE)

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got here -- we got here about three minutes ago.

911 OPERATOR: You said she`s in the kitchen?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We saw her this morning --

911 OPERATOR: What`s your name?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- 7:30 AM.

911 OPERATOR: What`s your name?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (DELETED) I`m her husband.

911 OPERATOR: OK, what`s your --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve had people trying to break in our house, like, a lot. They trash our cameras. We`re getting targeted, and I don`t know by

who the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is doing this, but I`m pissed.

911 OPERATOR: Do you see the medics there, the police there yet?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone`s here.

911 OPERATOR: OK. Go see the police officer. I`m going to disconnect with you, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t believe this.

911 OPERATOR: Could you just speak with the officer that`s there?

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I try to text her all the time to go out to eat. We always -- this is our usual routine.

911 OPERATOR: Sir, do you see the officer there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s that?

911 OPERATOR: Do you see the officer there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s two officers here.

MARSHALL: OK. Go speak with them. I`ll hang up with you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BANFIELD: There`s a lot to unpack here. Before you dwell on the fact that the caller seemed overly concerned about the past break-ins, say, than the

condition of his dying wife, you should know he had a real point to make. There is an arm`s length of police reports and 911 calls that have come

from that home within the last two years.

And I`m going to walk you through it because it is long and involved. First, let`s start with June 2016. Four boys apparently tried to vandalize

that yard, caught smoking pot, apparently. In November of that same year, 2016, five boys were knocking on back doors and trying to peep in on a

family member while she was changing in that home. Then January of 2017, that husband reported that a laptop case, actually, was stolen from his

car.

And in July of 2017, it gets even weirder. The victim`s daughter made this 911 call.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is this the Strongsville Police Department non- emergency number?

DISPATCH: Yes, it is. How can I help you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were some creepy people walking in our back yard and hiding behind our tree. We asked them to leave, and they kind of

hinted that they`re going to come back to our house later. It`s really suspicious because our cars have been broken into before.

DISPATCH: How many people are back there?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An adult, two teenagers and a little dog that they`re, like, hiding and being all weird.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BANFIELD: And that`s not all. There was then a phone call to 911 about a month after that one from the victim herself.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just had two people -- two big giant adults trying to pull on our back door.

911 OPERATOR: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re gone.

911 OPERATOR: Did you see which way they went?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I grabbed the flashlight and came out, and by the time we got out here, they`ll all gone, but (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: OK. And you said it was your back door?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Two big white guys. That`s all we could tell, one with a hoodie.

911 OPERATOR: Only one of them had a hoodie?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. (INAUDIBLE) One was by the door pulling on it.

911 OPERATOR: OK. And what is your name?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Melinda.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BANFIELD: And maybe most chilling of all, this call from the victim`s daughter`s fiance. It came four days before Melinda was found stabbed on

the floor.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: What`s your emergency?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone just tried to walk into my house.

911 OPERATOR: OK. What did they look like?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t really see him. I saw a blue hoodie and sweatpants.

911 OPERATOR: A blue hoodie? OK. Could you tell if it was a male or female?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably male.

911 OPERATOR: OK, which door did he try to get in, the front or the back?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The back door.

911 OPERATOR: OK. We do have officers en route. Can you remember anything else? Did he have -- he didn`t have gloves on. You saw his --

did he touch the door?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He touched the door.

911 OPERATOR: OK. This is -- I don`t want you to touch anything. I don`t want you to go out back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I already did open the door, though.

911 OPERATOR: From the inside or the outside?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From the inside, and I walked out on the deck --

911 OPERATOR: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- right when it happened.

911 OPERATOR: OK. Don`t touch anything else.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So that very same day, October 19th, ABC News reports that Melinda did a posting on her Facebook page, and I`m going to read it for

you. "Getting on a first-name basis with Strongsville Police Department. Someone please tell the people trying to break into my house that I have no

valuables." And it was just a short time after that she would be dead.

Melissa Neeley is an anchor and reporter for 700 WLW radio. She joins me from Cincinnati. Melissa, are they any closer to finding the people or the

person who did this?

MELISSA NEELEY, ANCHOR AND REPORTER, 700 WLW (via telephone): Well, the police are being very tight-lipped right now about this case. What we do

know is that they`ve completed the autopsy. Of course, they haven`t released the cause of death, although described by her husband and her

soon-to-be son-in-law, she was stabbed. And they do say they have the murder weapon although they haven`t said what that is yet.

BANFIELD: So, what about all these other reports? Are the police making a reference to the fact that this house has definitely been traumatized and

has had to call the police, you know, nearly half a dozen times in the last two years?

NEELEY (via telephone): Well, one thing you should know is this area is a low-crime area normally. While increases have come up with robberies and

some petty crimes, you know, murders and violent crimes are not something that happens in this area normally. So I think all of these calls have to

lead police somewhere because it`s unusual to get this amount of crime, especially at one residence.

BANFIELD: Well, didn`t the police also say in one of their releases that, you know, they are committed to the safety of this neighborhood but that

media report suggesting that there have been break-ins all over the place were just not true, that there have not been report of break-ins all over

the place. But this house clearly has, you know, has the backed up documentation to show that there have been problems there.

NEELEY (via telephone): Well, correct. I think that`s the thing. Like I said, the area itself and the city of Strongville isn`t normally a place

where you find a lot of violent crime, or even a place where there is this much activity going on. So I think if the police are trying to make some

statement, there could be possibly a generality.

But, of course, there are these records that prove and show that there`s been all of this activity at this one residence and I think they really

need to come out and tell us, you know, what`s been going on or find out more why that certain residence would be targeted.

BANFIELD: It`s such a frightening series of events. I want to bring in Joseph Scott Morgan. He is a certified death investigator and also a

professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. He joins me live from Jacksonville, Alabama.

All right. Professor, there`s so much going on at this particular home. I don`t even know where to begin in terms of the forensic investigation.

There`s a crime scene, a death scene. She was taken to the hospital and actually succumbed to the injuries there, according to authorities.

But I`m assuming that there`s going to be a hell of a process to go through, not only at that house, but at all of the other incidents. Would

there be forensics left over from all of those other calls that they might be able to use?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Potentially. Thanks for having me, Ashleigh. The idea here is that we`re talking about contact by

these alleged perpetrators relative to these previous events. I heard the word vandalism thrown around. We`re talking about things being broken into,

trying to force entry into homes. These sorts of things.

So, yes, there are (INAUDIBLE) forensically. The question is, at the point in time when these calls came in, did the police do their due diligence out

at the scene to protect that evidence and collecting the evidence, things like latent fingerprints, things like broken glass, footprints? All these

sorts of things that come into play. I would be very curious about that.

And also this strikes a cord with me as an investigator thinking about that there are essentially very few other break-ins that are occurring in this

area. You know, at first blush (ph), it seems to show that this is almost like this family has been targeted for some reason.

And I think that we or the investigators would need to take a long, hard look at the associates of all of the family members as well as her.

Remember, she`s a teacher. She has come in contact with a lot of kids over the years. And that`s going to spread far and wide.

BANFIELD: Yes. It`s such a bizarre scene. We`re going to continue to watch this. But obviously they have a lot of investigating to do with all of that

background at the home and then of course the very tragic death of Melinda Pleskovic. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Joseph Scott Morgan and

Melissa Neely.

Coming up, talk about a bad breakup. A woman goes to pick up her things. Among those things, a teddy bear from her ex`s place, and allegedly ends up

setting that home on fire and stabbing an off-duty officer, too.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): I understand that, sir, but where`s the fire in the house?

CLIFF WILLIAMS, OFF-DUTY DEPUTY: She just stabbed me with a knife.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): She stabbed you with a knife?

WILLIAMS: Yes, expedite those units.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[20:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Breakups can be nasty. Those feelings can fester to something very dark, sometimes even violent. Investigators in Florida say that may

just be the case when it comes to Brittany Bonin. They say she did something terrible that could send her to prison for a very long time.

Witnesses say she showed up at her ex-boyfriend`s home in Edgewater and lost it. They say she smashed a massive fish tank flooding the home and

then actually set the whole place on fire. But it didn`t end there.

[20:40:00] Police say ex made a run across the street where an off-duty sheriff where an off-duty sheriff deputy lived.

And as the two of them together were calling 911, they say Brittany came at them with a knife. Not only do we have that 911 call but we have something

else. Accompanying video, because it turns out that sheriffs deputy, his home had a surveillance camera and, yes, it was rolling. And pay close

attention too because as they were making that call, the officer himself ended up stabbed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): 911, where`s your emergency?

WILLIAMS: Hey, this is (INAUDIBLE) expedite those units and send fire rescue. Young lady started a fire in the house.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): OK, so the house is on fire now?

WILLIAMS: She started a fire, expedite the units.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Its (INAUDIBLE) correct?

WILLIAMS: Exactly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): OK.

WILLIAMS: I got both parties here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Where is the fire in the house?

Hello?

WILLIAMS: You can add battery onto LEO, too.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): OK.

WILLIAMS: Expedite those units.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): I understand that, sir, but where is the fire in the house?

WILLIAMS: She just stabbed me with a knife.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): She stabbed you with a knife?

WILLIAMS: Yes, expedite those units.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): OK. Are you --

WILLIAMS: She actually came over to my house. Stabbed me and tried to jump in on this guy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Do you know how he talks about you?

WILLIAMS: I don`t care how he talks about me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Where were you stabbed, sir?

WILLIAMS: In the back. Its not fatal. Expedite.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Wow. Ray Caputo is a reporter for News 96.5 WDBO. He joins me from Orlando. Holy cow! It`s almost like there`s play-by-play going on. The

audio from phone call, the video from the surveillance -- listen, Brittany is in a lot of trouble. What`s she facing?

RAY CAPUTO, REPORTER, NEWS 96.5 WDBO: She`s facing a host of charges right now, Ashleigh. She`s facing aggravated assault, battery on a law

enforcement officer, arson. She`s even facing a witness tampering charge. Right now she`s in jail and she has no bond, so that`s where she`s going to

stay for a bit of time.

BANFIELD: They wouldn`t give her bond or she couldn`t make it? What do we know?

CAPUTO: Last I checked, they weren`t going to give her bond.

BANFIELD: Holy Moses. And the interesting charge there, you said tampering with a witness. There`s a report that she broke his cell phone. Is that the

issue when it comes to tampering with a witness?

CAPUTO: It sounds like it. Because that`s why her ex-boyfriend initially went out of the house in the first place and seek Captain Williams out.

Because not only she broke his cell phone, she broke a lot other things in that house, even a shower curtain, she set fire in the house. She really

went on a rampage and that cell phone was one of the things that were broken and he had no way of calling 911.

BANFIELD: She seems very calm, cool and collected in the video from WSTV, I`ve got to be honest with you. There`s a big headline that goes with this

story. It all started over a teddy bear. Look, headlines are headlines, but there was a teddy bear in this whole story.

Apparently -- correct me if I`m wrong, Ray, she gave a teddy bear to her boyfriend for his child and the altercation might have begun over that. Is

that true?

CAPUTO: Yes. And we`ve also heard that there were some other reasons involved. They were in an on and off again relationship.

BANFIELD: I`ll say.

CAPUTO: And so I`ll leave it at that. But she was I guess a woman scorned, as they say, and she really let it out on her ex.

BANFIELD: Yes. Well, a woman`s scorn may leave a lot of char behind, as we see from the pictures. Ray, stand by for one minute. I want to bring in

Captain Cliff Williams. He was the guy in that video that you saw. Calm, cool and collected on that call to 911. And he joins me now live. He`s at

the Volusia County Sheriff`s Office. He`s in Orlando.

Captain, I don`t know how you did it. I don`t know how you stayed so calm as you`re being attacked and stabbed. First of all, did you have any idea

that this was coming?

WILLIAMS: I had absolutely no idea that this was coming. I was at home playing a video game and my doorbell rang and I noticed my neighbor and he

asked me to dial 911. And then, of course, we`re talking deescalation tactics and I figured, I`ll just keep them separated until the other units

get here and --

BANFIELD: And it looked like it escalated pretty quickly.

WILLIAMS: It did. It did. It escalated quickly. I thought at that point I`ll try to keep them separated. Of course, the video speaks for itself.

BANFIELD: So let me ask you something. As I look at you and I heard you on the tape say, you can add battery on a LEO, law enforcement officer to

that. You were some calm when you were stabbed. And it was in the back, correct?

[20:45:00] WILLIAMS: Absolutely. It was in the back. I realized I was stabbed. I also kind of realized that, you know, if you really stabbed real

bad, there`s a lot of bleeding and stuff. That didn`t happen.

But again, there`s no sense in us losing our head. We`re taught to remain calm. We`re taught to kind of stay in control of the situation. And I

realized very quickly and I was trying to explain to her, you know, you`re in a mess of trouble here.

BANFIELD: You`re explaining to her as you are dealing with a stab in your back. Is it true what I have read about this, that this wasn`t far from

your kidney. I mean, if it had been a couple of inches either way, tell me how serious it could have been.

WILLIAMS: As I understand it, you know, it wasn`t life threatening. Thank God. And go by there the grace of God. It didn`t (INAUDIBLE) vital organs

or anything like that. It went into the muscle and didn`t go in too deep.

Again, if you`re stabbed, you`re stabbed. And at that point, I was just trying to get the units I needed to help me and the units to put out the

fire in his house.

BANFIELD: Captain Cliff Williams, you`re going on my wall of fame of law enforcement officers who are just -- there`s no other word for you other

than amazing. Well, maybe awesome as well. I`m glad you are with us and I`m glad you are OK. I really hope I have lots of officers like you in my

neighborhood. Thanks for being on tonight.

WILLIAMS: And I really appreciate you inviting me here. It just goes to show that you never know, it can be brought to your doorstep and we do this

on a daily basis. So it can be brought right at home.

BANFIELD: And you were off duty, so, listen, I guess you`re always a cop no matter whether you got the badge on or not. Thank you, Captain Williams.

Thank you, Ray Caputo, as well for the reporting tonight.

A bloody scene in a front yard for days and days on end. Why is the crime scene tape still up and why hasn`t the scene been cleaned up? A lot to

unpack here, next.

[20:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Some people take Halloween decorations to a whole new level. From graveyards to huge inflatables. You know the neighbors who really go all

out? This one. In New Jersey, I got to say, there are some folks there who say their neighbors went way too far with their display because this is the

display -- holy cow.

It shows a car crash scene with a dead body on the hood pinned to a tree, another body -- you can`t really see it in the picture, but it sort of

thrown into the grass not far away. Both of the bodies are splattered in blood and, needless to say, it all looks very realistic.

Several people have been calling 911 to complain that the display is inappropriate and then it is too real. But the creative family is not

backing down. Their names are the Negrottos and they say it is not a typical crash scene. It is instead a scene out of a horror movie.

They say it depicts zombie Bob who drank a little tainted water from a local power plant and the family had to ram him into a tree and another

zombie too to put them down, put them out their misery and save their family. Whatever floats your boat.

But they do say they are not going to take the display down until Halloween is over. And that brings me to Rachel Kugel who is a defense attorney,

because where is the line? I don`t know if you can figure that out. In some circumstances, that could be really dangerous or super nuisance to 911.

RACHEL KUGEL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s tough because obviously you have a first amendment right and particularly it`s on your own property to do all

of the crazy zombie stuff you may want to do in taking advantage of Halloween. But there is a line and this occurred in New Jersey. New Jersey

in particular has a lot of ordinance --

BANFIELD: Put spotlight on it at nighttime just to make sure nobody misses it, right?

KUGEL: Yes, but New Jersey has a lot of violations that relate to how your property looks and whether anything on your property poses a nuisance or a

danger or hazard. So that might be a police where --

BANFIELD: That would be in the eye of the beholder, right?

KUGEL: Well, I think that there`s a line. As a general rule, if we`re talking about a obscene or things like that, even something like scary as a

word, I think that`s in the eyes of the beholder.

BANFIELD: I want our audience to see a couple other examples. This is not the first time.

KUGEL. No. Happens every year.

BANFIELD: Not exactly. Here is one. This one is in Oklahoma. The body under the garage door.

KUGEL: Yes.

BANFIELD: With this looming figure near him and dead body under the car close by. That prompted a call to 911. And there was also this picture in

North Carolina. It`s very realistic. Apparently, this little figure is in the middle of the field and there are no houses around it at all. If you

were driving by from quite a distance away, that would look pretty realistic and break the 911 operator`s lines.

South Charlotte, North Carolina, a fire department was dispatched to this one. This thing is hanging from the gutter. Look down, you can see like the

ladder fell. It looks very real, but it was just a model.

In Virginia, a death chamber with an electric chair and a control panel. That one looks kind of spooky. Mostly because it looks kind of Al Qaeda-

like, you know, the orange jumpsuit, black hood, then that big control panel.

And then all of these creepy dolls hanging from trees in Michigan. Obviously, this doesn`t look very realistic, it`s just kind of gross.

There`s not much you can do when it`s just kind of gross. They are clearly dolls. They don`t look so real.

KUGEL: Grossness is completely in the eyes of the beholder. Of course, one man`s gross is another man`s creative and fantastic Halloween decor.

BANFIELD: Sure.

KUGEL: But I think as far as I`m aware, all of those examples you`ve shown remained up

[20:55:00] and no one went to prison for putting any of them up. I think they will probably live to --

BANFIELD: I go with giant spiders all over the front of my house and everybody loves it. Plus, the big Jason doll.

KUGEL: You think everyone loves it, but --

BANFIELD: No one has ever complained. Not yet. My neighbors give me a break. We`re back right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: My thanks to Rachel Kugel. She has been our Halloween guide. What are you going to be for Halloween?

KUGEL: Skeleton.

BANFIELD: Skeleton. Is that every year?

KUGEL: (INAUDIBLE).

BANFIELD: Very scary. Thanks for being here tonight. Thank you, everyone, for being here too. We`ll be back tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. for

"Primetime Justice." In the meantime, don`t go anywhere, "Forensic Files" begins right after this.

END