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Joe Biden Considers 2020 Presidential Run; Judge Orders Deadlocked Menendez Jury to Keep Trying; Roy Moore's Wife Calls Allegations a "Witch Hunt". Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired November 13, 2017 - 14:30   ET



[14:31:05] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: He turns 75 years of age next week and just left the White House, but former Vice President Joe Biden is not ruling out a run for president in 2020.


JOE BIDEN, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm not closing the door. Look, I've been around too long. I'm a great respecter of fate, but who knows what the situation is going to be a year and a half from now?


BALDWIN: Let's talk it over with Douglas Brinkley, CNN presidential historian, who interviewed Biden for "Rolling Stone" just a couple of years ago and was left convinced he was considering a 2016 run. And CNN politics reporter & editor-at-large, Chris Cillizza, is with us.

Good to see you.

Doug, I remember talking about the "Rolling Stone" piece and here we are with the former vice president making news. Of all of the potential headlines, what stood out the most to you?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: That Biden is truly considering a run in 2020. Some people raise the age factors, but if Donald Trump's still in office and he's running it would be two men in their 70s and Biden hits a lot of the identity politic check marks of the Democratic Party. There's not one demographic that doesn't like Joe Biden, African-Americans, women's groups, labor unions, agriculture farmers. Most importantly, he wouldn't lose, in my opinion, Pennsylvania the way Hillary Clinton did. He's been able to market himself as the man from Scranton for so long and it would be a showdown in the Midwest if Biden were the nominee in Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin. But I do think, Brooke, he is going see what happens in 2018. He's going to get out there on the huskings and back Democratic candidates running and try to be a party leader and then, you know, test the waters next year at this time.

BALDWIN: Douglas, stand by.

On all things Joe Biden, and we are getting breaking news. And, Chris, I want to talk to you about this.

Here's the news. After less than three hours of fresh deliberations today a federal jury in New Jersey told the judge they are deadlocked. They are deadlocked on all 12 of these counts in Senator Bob Menendez's corruption case. And apparently, this judge has now ordered this jury, seven women, five men, to go back and keep trying. So dramatic turn of events. Chris Cillizza, deadlocked.

CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER & CNN EDITOR-AT-LARGE: Two things. One, remember that the new juror -- one of the jurors had left on a long-planned vacation. So they added a new juror in as of this morning. So a very brief time they decide that they're deadlocked. Point two, as you know, brook, this is not the verdict. This is a note from the jury to the judge. The judge says back to the jury and go back and deliberate some more. Possibly they come to something, but human nature being what's, if they're deadlocked they're probably likely to remain deadlocks which brings an uncertain future. Last week, New Jersey picked a new governor and it was a Democrat Phil Murphy. The appointment power and say that Menendez, this is down the line, and there was a new trial and he wound up being convicted, a Democrat would almost certainly be governor and be in a position to appointment another Democrat. So some of that Senate math, I think, will not be in play in a way that maybe six months ago we thought it might be no matter what the jury finds effectively.

BALDWIN: Stand by for me. Chris, thank you.

I have Jessica Schneider here on more of these details.

Again, and the jury in the Bob Menendez trial, the headline is they're deadlocked, and the judge has said to the jury, go back and figure this out.

Jessica, what more are you learning?

[14:34:55] JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDWENT: What's interesting about this, Brooke, is these jurors began deliberating now just after 10:00 this morning and less than four hours later they sent this her the and note for the, that note came in around 2:00 p.m. We understand that prosecutors recommended that the judge urge them or order them to continue deliberating. We know that the defense team led by Abby Lowell, and he's Senator Menendez's lawyer. He wanted to declare a mistrial because there were ups and downs over the last few days and we know that the judge had instructed this new jury that began deliberating anew this morning and it's the Allen Charge that basically says if the jury comes forward and says that they can't reach a unanimous verdict the judge usually does implore them to go back and try again. Sometimes they'll do this, the judge will do this up to two times, saying to the jury, no, go back and try this again, continue talking and continue deliberating.

So, Brooke, it's been really interesting because these jurors began deliberating last week, but as it was getting toward the end of the week, the federal holiday on Friday, one of the juror his previously told the judge she had vacation plans and as of Thursday she could not continue deliberating. Of course, no verdict was reached on Thursday. She left, not to come back, and an alternate was named on Monday. But there were some concerns this morning because that juror who was dismissed to go on vacation, she ended up talking to the cameras and she said she was feeling pressured and she believed, in her estimation, she believed that it would be a deadlocked jury. That's exactly what we're seeing now, Brooke --


BALDWIN: Wait, let me stop you there for a second, Jessica because we have sound from the juror, in case you haven't heard. Like you said, she got in front of cameras and here's what she said.


UNIDENTIFIED JUROR IN BOB MENENDEZ CORRUPTION CASE: I told them they weren't going to change my mind so there was no reason for them to try to change my mind. I was already in the courtroom for nine weeks and those nine weeks is that presented everything I had to present. I didn't fall asleep. I paid attention and wrote my notes so what I saw in the courtroom he was not guilty of all counts, and so was Dr. Melvin. They are friends.


BALDWIN: So there's the juror, Jessica. She has come out and spoken publicly and it's my understanding that a couple of these current jurors, and doesn't that sort of poison the well, in a sense?

SCHNEIDER: That was the defense team's argument this morning. There were -- there were proceedings in the court this morning where the judge asked, have you heard news reports did you hear about juror number eight who spoke out? Several jurors as well as a few of the alternate jurors who were there throughout proceedings, they sheepishly raised this hand. So, yes, they have some of this reporting over the weekend. They've had Saturday, Sunday and enough out, but he interviewed these lawyers, he didn't believe that they were unduly influenced here. And it's been less than four hours since they've been back in the jury pool because they could not get to a unanimous verdict any given them instruction to go back and try again. So we'll see what happens in the ensuing hours -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: Douglas Brinkley, to you, just the fact that you have a U.S. Senator on trial puts this into historic perspective for us.

BRINKLEY: Well, just imagine how ill Senator Menendez is right now. He was probably hoping to get this behind him and instead he is living in real time with it and you will flare up on headline news as something you don't want. We see politicians often and sometimes their career gets destroyed and he suddenly had the great moment of being a vice president who was tossed out for bribery charges. If you're Menendez now, you kind of want to be a bull and go forward, try to do other business of being a Senator, and hope that you've outlawyered your opponents on get a mistrial and get anything that you can to try to survive, but this is not a good day for him.

CILLIZA: Brooke, quickly to Doug's point --


[14:39:30] CILLIZZA: -- this has been going to the run-up, and the trial itself. The deliberations are relatively brief in that time span. But if a mistrial happens, this will be brought again and Bob Menendez will go it through again. Even if he's exonerated in the long run, these things can play a huge toll. And if you spent years in a trial about bribery with a donor, these are things that are problematic. New Jersey is a Democratic state. We saw that in the governor's race last week. Menendez has won before. But these are the things that over time can erode the political capital that you have. And I'll make another nerdy political joke. New Jersey is expensive media markets. It's Philadelphia and it's New York City. It's very hard to get known in a state like New Jersey, even if you're a state-wide politician because it costs so much money. And most politicians, Chris Christie being the exception, and even if you're a U.S. Senator. So it's not as though Bob Menendez has a huge reservoir of goodwill among New Jersey residents that he can fall back. The longer this goes, even if he's ultimately exonerated, it's problematic for him politically.

BALDWIN: Chris, Douglas and Jessica, thank you all.

Let me sneak a quick break in. And let me tell you what's been handed to me, that the judge has told the jury continue deliberating but advised them to go home, get a breath of fresh air and clear their heads.

We are back with legal analysis on next steps coming up next.


[14:45:39] BALDWIN: Back to our breaking news. We've been following this corruption trial involving New Jersey Senator Bob Menendez. And what we've now learn side this jury which essentially has started fresh today because they've had to switch in this new juror is deadlocked and deadlocked just after a couple of hours of deliberations. They had been deliberating for about a week when one juror had to be excused for vacation and they bring in a new juror today. And after just a couple of hours they're deadlocked. And the message from the judge to the jury is you've got to keep going. And the judge sent these jurors home to clear well heads in hopes for some sort of conclusion perhaps tomorrow.

So I've got two very quick and smart legal minds with me. Michael Zeldin and Paul Callan.

Just to you first. Your reaction just to this jury here. It's seven women, five men, deadlocked so quickly.

MICHAEL ZELDIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: They've been deliberating for a number of days and I didn't expect that to take too long, but I thought from the beginning that they'd have a hard time convicting Menendez of these charges. The Supreme Court in the 8-0 decision in the Governor McDonald of Virginia case found that you really need a specific quid pro quo, meaning a gift and an official act in respect of that gift. There really wasn't evidence of that. And indeed, the prosecution used this sort of stream of relationship and the theory that has been knocked down by the Supreme Court in McDonald. In some sense, for the prosecutor, where we are now at a present hung jury is a victory for them. I don't think they'll retry this case. And I don't think it's a provable case on the evidence that we've been able to read about in the press.

BALDWIN: Deadlocked on 12 counts.

Paul Callan, when you hear the judge tells them to go home, get a breath of fresh air and clear their head enough to come to a different conclusion the next day?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST (via telephone): Well, brook, jury deadlocks are not unusual in criminal cases. They happen all of the time and a lot of times it's one or two jurors holding out and after more deliberations they change their mind and we have a verdict, however, I have to agree with Michael in this case and it made it hard to prove bribery across politicians and one of the jurors who had been excused from the jury because she was going on vacation reported that there was a deadlock and there was a firm group of jurors that were not going to vote guilty and or others who thought he was guilty and so this looks to me like it is going to wind up with a hung jury and I think you will see tomorrow what they call an Allen Charge to the jury and that's a charge sometimes called the dynamite charge and it's designed to really get the jurors to get serious, to re-examine their beliefs and not to give up a conscientious belief, but to reassess all of the other jurors' positions on it, but this is a tough, tough case for the prosecution and I have to agree with Michael on that.

BALDWIN: We'll see where it goes tomorrow.


BALDWIN: Quickly, Michael, go ahead.

ZELDIN: One problem here is they have the two defendants, the Senator and co-defendant had a 25-year relationship and it's very hard in a case of that long a friendship to prove quid pro quo because they have spent time together over a long period of time, and that stream of benefits theory just doesn't work anymore. And you saw it in New York where in the conviction of the state legislators their convictions were overturned after the McDowell -- the McDonald decision by the Supreme Court. It's just not a winnable case.

[14:49:56] BALDWIN: We'll see what happens tomorrow when they're back at it.

Gentlemen, thank you both so much, on the corruption trial involving Senator Bob Menendez.

Let's get you back now to our breaking news though. Alabama Senate Candidate Roy Moore's wife calling the allegations against her husband a witch hunt, including the allegation that Moore engaged in sexual misconduct with a 14-year-old girl when he was just 32. My next guest is sparking all kinds of conversation with the #meat14. We'll talk to her about that, next.


[14:54:55] BALDWIN: All right. Back to our breaking news here. The wife of Senate Candidate Roy Moore calling the sexual abuse allegations against him, quoting her, "a witch hunt." This as more and more women are coming forward. And men, too. Republicans are calling for Roy Moore to leave the race. This new #meat14 is charting the allegations that Moore initiated encounters of teenagers and young girls. Thousands upon thousands have posted pictures of themselves at that age.

My next guest is one of them. She is Lizz Winstead, the co-creator of "The Daily Show." And this is Lizz at 14. Big smile. She is also the founder of Lady Parts Justice League.

Lizz, nice to meet you.


BALDWIN: Did you have any idea this would become the thing that it has?

WINSTEAD: Well, I mean, I knew that women were outraged. And it was funny because I was sort of napping all day.

BALDWIN: This was Saturday?

WINSTEAD: A friend of mine had tweeted herself in a picture at 14.


WINSTEAD: And she was, like -- at 14, there's never consent, and she had the #meat14, and I saw the picture of my friend and burst out crying just thinking of my friend at 14 and knowing my friend had a daughter who was 13 and I just was, like, what if we all just posted our pictures at 14 and told the story of who we are and what does that look like to remind people that women and girls are vulnerable all the time, 14 and vulnerable, that prey upon when men prey upon that is horrifying and we keep hearing stories of using dating as a euphemism for abuse and that immediately puts the blame on to the person and abdicates it and it puts it into what were you asking for it category or you were willing and I think that women wouldn't let that stand, and I know that I couldn't let that stand.

BALDWIN: I'm curious of all of the responses you've gotten, tell me a little bit about how overwhelming it's been and also have you heard from women in Alabama?

WINSTEAD: Yes. I have heard from women in Alabama. In fact, today a woman said I -- this is a very important hash tag especially since I know the woman -- I knew her at 14, and I support -- for those of us supporting her, and I looked at her profile picture and it was, like, MAGA, I support the president. And I was, like, wow! To have people retweet who they were at 14 and then I had people direct message me saying, you know what? I was abused at 14 and it was nice to post a picture of myself and not say that and just talk about who I was as a girl, and then people who got explicitly into the stories of who they were, and what had happened to them, people who were telling me this was a picture of me at 14. I had experienced sexual assault since I was 8 in this picture or a week after I was attacked and then people started talking with each other saying I've never told the story until now and I don't feel alone, and so, you know, I have this tiny platform that's this big and to be able to put my picture out there, I think sometimes when somebody sees that you are somebody who has been sexually assaulted which I have been and I didn't put it the in my tweet and I think people trusted that I kind of had their backs on it, to show that people don't identify that with, that stuff's important.

BALDWIN: Posting pictures and creating a movement is one thing and all of these different men and women coming forward and you come from a world of comedy and we were talking about Louis C.K. and his statement and talking about how he expresses remorse and I was talking to a fell male comedian after he said, yes, I did these things, what's to come out of all of this, and the women speaking up. What does change look like?

WINSTEAD: For me change looks like people understanding the profundity of all of this and believing people when they come forward and, you know, saying, hey, gather your friends. Hey, guys, you're part of this. When you see your friend behaving weirdly, call them on it and defend the person if they come forward. Don't let people sit in silence and take action yourself. It takes a relationship that is very large to come forward and do it and it also mean, to as we see all of these celebrities and famous people come forward, 28er can destroy their careers and I know there's justice when someone who runs an acme insurance company who tries to assault a woman when she can come forward and get justice and feel like her career is not over, that's when we know we'll see justice.

BALDWIN: Thank you for sharing your voice and I'm sorry you were sick on Saturday morning and something very powerful happened.

Thank you so much. Thank you.

WINSTEAD: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Now this.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: All right. Top of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

We begin with breaking news in the Senator Bob Menendez --