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Special Counsel Subpoenas Trump Campaign; Franken Apologizes and Faces Probe; Gillibrand on Clinton; Celtics Beat Warriors; MeToo Movement Change. Aired 8:30-9:00a ET
Aired November 17, 2017 - 08:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[08:30:0] REP. JIM HIMES (D), CONNECTICUT: Be from the FBI investigation.
And, yes, of course the campaign has been of interest to us and they have, in fact, been cooperating in providing what we have requested of them.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And that is what the Trump team is saying to an extent, we've been cooperating all along. This is a cleanup subpoena, they say, to collect things that are remaining that have not yet been handed over. Is it that simple?
HIMES: Well, I'm not sure it's that simple. In other words, you know, what we learned -- and I learned reading about it in the press, of course, is the letter from Senate Judiciary to Jared Kushner saying, hey, you didn't give us everything that we wanted.
HIMES: And being very specific about what they got through other sources that they didn't get.
And, sadly, and this is not said with prejudice, because, again, we're investigating, so we don't have a conclusion, but the pattern of being dishonest or about -- or of forgetting -- that's sort of the attorney general's specialty, kind of forgetting the meetings, and therefore making it excruciatingly difficult to get the facts for any of the investigations, this has been a pattern since these investigations started.
BERMAN: In talking about Jared Kushner, again, which is a separate thing, that the Senate Judiciary Committee now asking him for documents it says he should have turned over already.
You know, Jared Kushner, having to do things he should have done already, is a pattern, right?
BERMAN: And this is not -- this is just fact at this point. He didn't fill out forms the way he was supposed to initially. He's had to revise and extend so many things and then turn over documents later on.
Do you feel this is disorganization, incompetence or at this point, after so long, does it look to you like he's trying to hide something?
HIMES: You know, I don't want to answer that with respect to any one individual, but I will tell you that the overall pattern in this investigation is first blanket denial, from the president, from former National Security Adviser Flynn, no contact, nothing happened, and then it turns out lots happened. And we find this out over time often because something comes up in the investigation.
George Papadopoulos, right? You know, we had no contact. Well, you know, George Papadopoulos pleaded guilty to lying about that contact. So we know that there is a consistent pattern of dissembling, of lying, of forgetting, and that's makes these investigations very, very hard.
BERMAN: Congressman, I want to ask you about a lot of the news over the last 24 hours as it concerns Al Franken, and then going back weeks as it concerns the issue of really how men tweet women in general.
Let's talk about Senator Franken. Have you seen enough, as of now, to say whether you think Al Franken should be a U.S. senator?
HIMES: Well, I -- let me make a general statement first, which is, you know, what we're going through as a country now, grappling with the fact that this kind of behavior, whether it's in Hollywood or on Wall Street or in Washington, this kind of behavior has been swept under the rug for too long. I will tell you, in general, there is absolutely no place for that kind of behavior in the United States Congress.
I'm not anxious to get into specific cases and details right now because, you know, at least in the Franken case, we're going to have an ethics investigation that is going to out the facts. And, you know, we -- I certainly condemn -- what he did was disgusting. And, you know, as Charlie Dent, who you were talking to before said, you know, we have a process. There are questions in the Congress about how you sanction behavior that occurred before somebody came to the Congress. That kind of behavior, generally speaking, there is no place for it anywhere, much less in the United States Senate or United States House of Representatives.
BERMAN: Yes, I guess, though, what I'm saying is, there are Democrats and people who are perfectly willing to say that Roy Moore should drop out. Roy Moore should not be a candidate for U.S. Senate for Alabama based on the evidence they have seen already before it goes to any kind of official investigation. Yet when it comes to Al Franken, Democrats particularly in the Senate are saying, well, let's wait for the ethics investigation.
HIMES: Yes, look, I don't -- this is not a Democrat or a Republican problem, and it shouldn't be. We can't let the urgency of addressing this kind of behavior become yet another thing that falls into the partisan (INAUDIBLE).
HIMES: The Roy Moore case is a little different in a whole bunch of different ways. BERMAN: It is?
HIMES: I personally didn't, you know, suggest that he -- that he should drop out. Look, at the end of the day, there won't be an ethics investigation of Roy Moore, but there will be an election. And the people of Alabama will make a choice about whether this guy should be in the Senate. And then the Senate will be in an interesting position of them deciding whether they want to seat this guy (INAUDIBLE).
BERMAN: Well, it's interesting, there are people who say there may very well be an ethics investigation of Roy Moore if he is elected to the Senate.
BERMAN: That might be the avenue Mitch McConnell uses to get him out of the Senate. And he can point to precedent now saying we investigated Al Franken for actions he made before. That's an aside.
So your tristate colleague from the other body, Senator Kirstin Gillibrand, overnight told "The New York Times" that she thinks that President Clinton should have resigned based on the allegations that were made against him when he was president. People are having to look at history in a different way right now and reassess many of the positions they had and the things they said and the things they did. Are you willing to go as far as the senator and say that he should have resigned?
HIMES: You know, I don't know that I am. You know, I -- it had been a long time since I thought about that very sorted situation that led to, of course, years of investigations there. And so I don't know that I'm quite where the senator is right now.
I do think, though, you know, this is obviously a very painful moment for a lot of women. It is a painful women -- painful moment for a lot of guys who thought they were doing something that was, you know, just joking or OK because guys, you know, chuckle about this.
[08:35:07] This discussion, I think, at the end of the day, is a pretty healthy one because we've clearly got to send the message out, men, women, Republicans, Democrats, the behavior that was sort of jokey and swept under the carpet is, you know, even three months ago is not tolerable. We can't accept it.
And so, in general, you know, it's not just about punishing perpetrators. The message needs to go out that if you're in a position of leadership and you engage in this behavior, you will be gone.
HIMES: So that, you know, young men will see that as a society that's the way we treat these kinds of transgressions.
BERMAN: Yes. And, look, it's even hard to talk about -- you know, I know you're not suggesting this, but what Roy Moore is accused of is not jokey behavior and some of the allegations that were made about Bill Clinton not that either, but it's -- you know, these were things that need to be out in the open and hashed over and thought about in a new way.
Congressman Jim Himes, thanks for being with us. Really appreciate it.
HIMES: Thanks for having me.
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: OK, John, voting is now underway for the CNN Hero of the Year. Here's one of this year's top ten heroes, Khail Sweeney.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KHALI SWEENEY, CNN HERO: I don't see bad kids. I see a kid who haven't been heard yet.
I always wonder, where was my real family at? I found that family that I was looking for in the streets.
If you spend enough time with kids, you'll find out that they're going through the same thing that I was going through. No mentors. No positive role models. Ready for prison or the county morgue.
Keep your hands above his. Let's go!
Boxing teaches you to block out all the outside noises. This is just a vehicle to get the kids in the door. It's actually an academic program.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are we going for the title today? All right. Cool. So what homework do you have?
SWEENEY: We hold our kids to the same standard. (INAUDIBLE) the suburbs or anywhere around the world. The stuff that we're doing here is the stuff that should be given to everyone.
When I first met Jordan, I didn't see the kid that everybody else saw.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I hadn't found Khali, I think I would be dead or in jail.
SWEENEY: If you keep doing like this, you're opening it up too wide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's a savior.
SWEENEY: Just keep working. Let's go. There you go! That's all you got to do is just do it, Jordan.
Throughout my life looking for that family.
They have become my family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: OK. And you can vote for Khali or any of your favorite top ten heroes now at cnnheroes.com.
BERMAN: Last night's Celtics/Warrior game was epic and the outcome perfect. Playoff level intensity from both teams as they tried to keep their streaks alive. So who won the thriller? My smile should tell you that. Stay with us.
[08:41:57] CAMEROTA: The Celtics shocked the Warriors last night thanks to an inspired performance by a player who was not ensure sure he'd be at the game. And that's why John Berman is dancing today.
Andy Scholes, you have more in this morning's "Bleacher Report." Look what he's doing.
ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Hey, good morning, guys.
Big win by the Celtics. And I'll tell you way, Jaylen Brown was an inspirational performance by him. He got word that his best friend, Trevin Steede, had passed away just hours before tipoff. Years ago when Brown moved to a new high school in Georgia, he was the shy kid and Trevin was the first person to walk up, talk to him, start a conversation. Since that time, the two have been best friends. And Brown really upset when he found out about Trevin's death. He said he wasn't sure he was going to be able to play last night. It wasn't until he talked to Trevin's mom on the phone and talked -- she talked him into playing. And, boy, did he have a great game, leading the way for the Celtics with 22 points as they won their 14th straight game.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAYLEN BROWN, CELTICS: I wasn't in any shape to come out. I didn't want to leave my room. But they inspired me to come out and play. And I came out and played in his spirit. And today my teammates held me up and we pulled it off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHOLES: After the game Brown tweeting this picture of him and Trevin saying, this one was for you.
And, John, after the big win over the Warriors, Kyrie Irving went and got that game ball and h brought it over to Brown and he said, this was for Trevin.
BERMAN: A really emotional night. Andy, thanks so much.
SCHOLES: All right.
CAMEROTA: that is really inspiration. Gosh, thank goodness he decided to show up there.
BERMAN: All right, more men in power forced to response after more women come forward. So what should happen to men accused of inappropriate behavior? Is remorse enough? We have a panel of women weighing in next.
[08:48:04] CAMEROTA: Senator Al Franken is the latest public figure to be accused of sexual misconduct. His accuser, Leeann Tweeden, spoke to our Jake Tapper about what needs to change.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEEANN TWEEDEN, ANCHOR WHO ACCUSED FRANKEN OF GROPING: And i think that's really where change is going to be driven from, not from a -- not from the victims coming out and talking about it. I think it's going to come from the people who maybe do the abusing that don't even realize they're doing the abusing because it's so a part of the culture and it's been so a part of -- when you can do this and look at a camera and laugh and think that that's OK and you can get away with it and you know you're being photographed and you know you're doing it to a woman and you think that that's OK and you can do it with impunity and you think you can just get away with it and it's ha ha funny, that's what's wrong with the culture, you know? So if we can have the people doing the abusing change, that's where it -- that's when the change is going to occur.
CAMEROTA: OK. So let's talk about what will happen next with Areva Martin. She's our CNN legal analyst and civil rights attorney, and Ruth Marcus, deputy editorial page editor and columnist for "The Washington Post."
Ladies, great to have both of you here for this ongoing conversation that we continue to have almost on a daily basis.
Ruth, let me start with you.
You've written the piece -- a piece about the conundrum that Republicans are in. For them to be able to say that they believe Roy Moore's accuser and they believe Al Franken's accuser, yet they don't believe the 12 women who have come forward to say that Donald Trump sexually accosted them in one way or another. How do we explain that?
RUTH MARCUS, DEPUTY EDITORIAL PAGE AND COLUMNIST, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Well, convenience might be one way to explain it.
Look, I -- just because a woman -- you know, one woman says something doesn't mean she should be automatically believed in a courtroom, but it doesn't mean she should be disbelieved. And I think the president and his defenders are in a very difficult space because the women who came forward in his case, there's every reason to believe he had said on the "Access Hollywood" tape, he had described what he did and then a number of women came forward and said, and, yes, he did that to me.
[08:50:17] And so if you are say Senator McConnell or the other Republicans who appropriately say, I believe the women who have accused Judge Moore, or if, for example, if you are Ivanka Trump and say there's no reason to disbelieve these women, there's a big, looming question out there that there's not a very good answer to either from President Trump himself or from his defenders.
CAMEROTA: Areva, how do you see it?
AREVA MARTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Oh, I agree 100 percent. And I will even go a little further. If Mitch McConnell says if Roy Moore is elected to the U.S. Senate, he's going to take actions to expel him, why wasn't that the special rational with respect to Donald Trump? Donald Trump was elected to president of the United States, but why didn't Mitch McConnell have the same visceral response, we're going to take actions to remove him from the United States presidency because there's no reason that you could expel Roy Moore but not Donald Trump. The hypocrisy is astonishing.
CAMEROTA: So, listen, here's the question, right? We -- Areva, you and I have spoken about this at length. We feel like we're at a tipping point. It feels like women are empowered, they're emboldened to come out. There is strength in numbers. We're hearing more of these MeToo stories. It's been sweeping the nation.
OK, so if we're in this tipping point, this moment of sea change, how far back do we want to go? OK, how retroactive is this moment? Do we want to go back to what Al Franken did in 2006 with this woman, do we want to go back to whatever Roy Moore did in the 1970s, Donald Trump was accused of these things for years, 2007 is one that springs to mind, Bill Clinton, people are talking about, 1998. So, Ruth, what's the answer to that?
MARCUS: I think this is the really important question that we've only began to grapple with because not every crime deserves the death penalty and not every instance of sexual misconduct, sexual harassment deserves the same -- deserves the same punishment. And so it has to be a kind of individualized judgment. How bad was the conduct? How long ago was the conduct? And what is the -- what is the consequence of allowing this person to remain in place?
So, for example, if you have somebody who's accused of using his position of power in the workplace to prey on women, you can't allow that person to be -- to remain in your workplace. That's a litigation risk and it's unfair to the women in your workplace.
On the other hand, if somebody did something a long time ago, if he should have known better then, but also we are at this moment, once again, of national awakening. We've been through them before with Anita Hill, with Monica Lewinsky. If it was -- but it was quite a while ago, or as with Senator Franken, he was in a different position, I think we're really going through this moment of figuring out what the appropriate punishment is.
We've had a -- definitely the risk of under reacting to sexual harassment in the past. That was a very bad situation. There is a risk that we need to be cognizant of, of overreacting new, and that isn't to say, we need to react and we need to punish people who need to be punished.
MARCUS: We need to protect the workplace. But we also need to guard against overreaction.
CAMEROTA: Yes, it's going to take a while to figure out the equilibrium here. But -- so let's just look at Al Franken, Areva.
So this happened in 2006. He's admitted it. He's apologized now. The woman says she accepts his apology. So now what punishment do we want?
MARTIN: Well, I think we're going to have to have this period of what some people may call an over correction. I don't think we can get away with that because when we have these powerful men, who have for decades been able to use their power to abuse women, to harass women, we've got to have this kind of national cleansing. We've got to be able to call these men out by name and they have to face some consequences.
Now, what those consequences are, I agree with Ruth, that someone who is engaged in an incident ten years ago, it's a one-time situation, that's very different than someone who has 12 or 16 or, in some of these cases up to 300 women that come forward and make allegations against them.
But I don't think this is the time to start worrying about over correcting. I think this is the time to have an open dialogue where we are encouraging women to come out with their stories, even if these stories are three decades or four decades old, because we're not going to fix this problem unless we fully expose it.
CAMEROTA: So, Ruth, yes or no, is an apology from Al Franken now enough?
[08:55:00] MARCUS: Well, I think that will depend on a few things. That will depend on whether there is any more smoke or fire around, whether any more women come out with stories. And I'm not suggesting that there are or aren't.
MARCUS: I just don't know.
So is this -- is as -- is this, as you say, a kind of one off incident? I think it's particularly complicated in Senator Franken's case both because this conduct occurred before he was in the Senate and because he has this background as a comedian, and comedians kind of do rude things and push envelopes. I am not for people who are listening and not getting their blood pressure up. I'm not suggesting in any way that his conduct is appropriate --
MARCUS: I am just saying, I would weigh that in figuring out how to punish him.
CAMEROTA: All right, we will see what happens on Capitol Hill and beyond.
Ruth Marcus, Areva Martin, thank you very much for the conversation. MARTIN: Thanks, Alisyn.
CAMEROTA: "The Good Stuff," that's next.
BERMAN: All right, it's time for "The Good Stuff."
A homeless man, Elmor Alvarez (ph), found a $10,000 check made out to Roberta Hoski (ph) in Connecticut. With help from a friend, he was able to find her business number. When they met and he returned the check.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are good people out here. And that -- look, $10,000.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So it turns out Roberta was homeless when she was a teenager.
CAMEROTA: Oh, my gosh.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't know that she was this -- at one point she was homeless, too, you know. And I believe that I did the right thing, you know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So Roberta not only wrote Elmor (ph) a thank you check, she invited him to attend her real estate school for free, which is wonderful. Look, doing the right thing is a reward in and of itself, but it's always nice when there's some (INAUDIBLE).
[09:00:10] CAMEROTA: That is good karma right there.
BERMAN: Great karma.
OK, thanks so much. Great to work with you.
BERMAN: Great to be here.