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Mugabe's Reign Ends; Exploring the People Whio Support Roy Moore. Aired 2-2:30

Aired November 21, 2017 - 14:00:00   ET



CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN ANCHOR: Celebrations, singing and dancing on the streets of Harare. It is the end of an era in Zimbabwe, Robert Mugabe,

president for 37 years has finally resigned. The latest from he capitol later in the show.

In the wake of more sexual abuse allegations, we focus on the support of evangelical Christians in America for one of the accused. Alabama

republican senate candidate Roy Moore. Is politics about religion? We'll explore.


AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. In a historic moment, the start of a new

era is underway in Zimbabwe.


AMANPOUR: Robert Mugabe, who for nearly four decades simply refused to bow to election results, apposition parties and people power fill any has heard

the collective and raised voice of his believed people. It took 37 years but at last he has resigned. Zimbabweans took to the streets to celebrate

most of known no other leader, only the failed state that Mugabe brought them to.

There are reports that the fired vice president who precipitated this fall will be sworn in within 48 hours. He reportedly will serve the rest of

Mugabe's term before new elections. Just yesterday, Mugabe said that he would not step down and that was days after he was placed under house

arrest. So why did the stubborn old man of Africa change his mind? CNN's David McKenzie joins me now from the capitol.

So David, clearly there's been so much joy and jubilation. One political leader tweeted that this is the first time since independence that Mugabe

has united Zimbabweans in joy.

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN REPORTER: That's right, Christiane, and I have to say that a lot of people here tonight have said that this is a new independency

day for Zimbabwe. The screamed out onto the streets into the public squares when they got word that the resignation letter of Robert Mugabe,

the 93 year old leader, 37 years in power, Christiane, had resigned.

Finally the pressure had built up to a point that the military rule here in this country effectively at coo. The people on the streets. The same from

activists and within his own party, they much have questioned to a point that he didn't want to suffer the humiliation of they potential protracted

and impeachment process and he stepped down.

And the instant signs of jubilation and joy, Christiane, you've covered this country as well for a long time. You can just get the sense of a

release, a happiness and bridal from the people going to the soldiers, fist bumping, high fiving, running onto the streets, driving through town,

waving Zimbabwean flags.

A moment really for them to cherish and they've said there're a lot of questions about the future by today is for them here in Zimbabwe,


AMANPOUR: I was going to ask you that very question about the future. Clearly it is a happy day today but with the reports said Emmerson

Mnangagwa, who was fired and precipitated this crisis that he may be brought back within 48 hours to serve out the rest of Mugabe's term. What

does that mean? Is that a development for democracy or is it solidifying a kind of military hegemony there?

MCKENZIE: I think we have to be clear that very little about this was democracy. This was a five foot in the ruling parties done, Christiane. A

fight that went onto the streets with the military. The purged the faction of Grace Mugabe, the first lady and then all of the people in senior

leadership who were supporting her in trying to be the next president of Zimbabwe after their 93 year old leader.

So this is not a democratic congress but it certainly has the support of the people standing behind me. So what they are saying is they hope that

Emmerson Mnangagwa, if he comes into power as acting president or president.

Just today he was saying, Christiane, that it's all about the people of Zimbabwe that everyone from the ruling party and the opposition and

activist need to come together to rebuild the country people the economy is in tactic. Whether he actually does this is another matter, but what we've

seen here is effective to getting the - sorting out who will come next after Robert Mugabe. A lot of people are worried because Mnangagwa was the

right hand man behind Mugabe for all these years for it to be more of the same, but its accumulation like now, they each have a (inaudible) for


CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: (David) thank you and of course his nickname is the crocodile so we will wait and see how that plays out. Now

Roy Bennett was a Senior Official in the movement for Democratic change, the opposition party led by Morgan Changerai. He's a farmer by trade

Bennett was imprisoned and his farm was confiscated by Mugabe's government, and he joins me now by Skype from Exile in Zambia. Mr. Bennett welcome, I

mean you must be personally thrilled beyond what you see politically developing in your country?

ROY BENNETT, FORMER SENIOR OFFICIAL, MOVEMENT FOR DEMOCRATIC CHANGE: Absolutely Christiane and by the way most of it was my Father Dzingirai.

Absolutely unbelievable things must go to the millions or thousands maybe tens of thousands of people that have sacrificed for this moment they're


AMANPOUR: So tell me, we said a little bit about your farm and about you know some of the tragedies that you suffered. Give me a sense of what

happened to you and your family in opposing Robert Mugabe.

BENNETT: One must never forget this is and started out as a zone and peers thing. This was a fight between zone and peer hierarchy around the

checkbook and who's gonna hold the checkbook. What Emerson Mnangagwa and constant time to regret and realize is very (inaudible) the genie out the

bottle. What I suffered, what we suffered as a family is a marker (inaudible) of what tens of thousands of Zimbabweans have suffered.

The genie that's out the bottle is these people have allowed the people of Zimbabwe to express their feelings. They hate (inaudible), they hate

Emerson Mnangagwa and Constantino Chiwenga The military, the rank and fall of the military hate their leaders. They have been suppressed, they have

been - there's no words to explain what the people of Zimbabwe have suffered.


BENNETT: What these clowns did was give the people of Zimbabwe hope, and they have come out in the hundreds of thousands to show their support for a

Democratic Zimbabwe.

AMANPOUR: Right, but you have just said that they've given people hope, but the people hate them and we see that Emerson Mnangagwa is coming back.

Is this going to be a new Democratic chapter or is it going to be more Authoritarianism? Do you believe somebody like Mnangagwa will give up

power if voted out in the next round of elections, which is scheduled for 2018.

BENNETT: Christiane, the nicest thing and the most decent thing Emerson Mnangagwa and Constantino Chiwenga you gotta link the two. They have

engineered and constructed every move. Zimbabwe's - Mugabes an old man, he's had no control. These people have been in control and have done and

played their roles fully in the destruction and terrorism against the people of Zimbabwe. If they are genuinely more caring the first thing they

will do is apologize to the people of Zimbabwe for their behavior.

Then we can see that they are genuine. The next thing the will do is introduce reforms - reforms that will undo and dismantle the total state

that they have created. We abide every single (inaudible) of what ever there is in Zimbabwe controlled by (inaudible). They had placed people

politically in every single position, so they attach it in (inaudible).

AMANPOUR: All right, so let me just interrupt. So you then are clearly unhopeful you are not hopeful about this moment. Do you think - oh we may

have lost your Skype connection. Oh dear oh dear we will try to come back to you, we will indeed. But that was not a ringing endorsement for the new

reported leaders, at least transitional leaders to come after Robert Mugabe. OK you're back Mr. Bennett, you don't sound very hopeful. Will

the people tolerate further trampling of their democracy? Will Morgan Changerai be able to maintain a proper oppositional? Will you come back?

BENNETT: Never before have I been more proud to be a Zimbabwean Christiane. In what the people of Zimbabwe have expressed, never again

will there ever be a Dictatorship in Zimbabwe. You've let the genie out the bottle and people are at - they want change. I sincerely hope Emerson

Mnangagwa and Constantine Chiwenga understand what they have done. Once they evilly and conniving-ly did it to try and make themselves look good,

they've let the genie out of the bottle. They will never be a dictatorship in Zimbabwe again.

AMANPOUR: All right. Well it is going to be absolutely vital to see what happens next, what transpires next. Whether the excitement of today leads

to something better for Zimbabwe. Thank you very much indeed for joining us. And when we come back, now that judgment day is here for sexual

sinners, the religious right in Alabama, in the United States goes to extraordinary lengths to defend the accused Senate candidate, Roy Moore.

We debate politics, has muddied morality? That is next.


AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. Lets turn now to the great reckoning that was triggered by the Harvey Weinstein's scandal. American

networks CBS, PBS, and Bloomberg TV have all pulled the veteran television host Charlie Rose off the air after eight women have accused him of sexual

harassment. Rose who has apologized for his quote, inappropriate behavior joins a growing list of famous men accused of sexual misconduct.

Across, not just Hollywood and the media, but politics too. In the United States the Alabama Republican Senate candidate, Roy Moore is still hanging

on, but his White House support despite at least eight women accusing his of sexually assaulting or pursuing sexual relationships with them when they

were just teenagers and when (ph) was in his thirties. Moore denies all the allegations.


ROY MOORE, ALABAMA REPULICAN SENATE CANDIDATE: After forty something years of fighting this battle, I'm now facing allegations and that's all the

press wants to talk about. But I want to talk about the issues, I want to talk about where this (ph) is going and if we don't come back to God, we're

not going anywhere.


AMANPOUR: Coming back to god her said, but evangelical Christians all across the state are rushing to Moore's defense with one pastor telling the

Boston Globe newspaper quote, there are some fourteen year olds that the way they look could pass for twenty. Despite the unwavering support for

Moore, from the majority of evangelicals, there are some who are speaking out against what they call hypocrisy, like the evangelical Christian,

William Brubaker.

He's a law professor at the University of Alabama and he says he's ashamed of Roy Moore and upset that so many people are determined to defend him

against sexual assault allegations. I'm also joined by Pastor Mark Burns. He is in the majority a defender of Roy Moore. Gentleman, thank you for

joining us. So let me ask you first, why why pastor do you still defend someone who clearly is seeing the kind of allegations mount up against him?

I mean the kind of allegation and the number of allegations that caused our profession to yank a very prominent member of the media that's Charlie


MARK BURNS, PASTOR: Well first thanks for having me on. In reference to Roy Moore, I think it's important that you have to understand Christians in

America understand grace. Christians truly understand that the word of God it works even for people you dislike. It works even for people that you

wouldn't vote for. The word of God either it works or id does not work and most if not all Christian -- Evangelicals Christians understand that the

power of grace is important.

We cannot say Roy Moore -- I personally cannot say Roy Moore is innocent, but I also cannot say that he is guilty so what do I have as a Christian to

use to decide whether or not we still should continue to support this person. Is he really a child molester? Is he is really someone that is

praying after young women? Or is this a character assassination?

AMANPOUR: All right.

BURNS: The only way that we can really know is listening to the people that are the closest to him, those that do know him, those that have

witnessed with him for over 40 years of service -- public service within the great state of Alabama.

AMANPOUR: All right.

BURNS:.and to get their opinion of Roy Moore.

AMANPOUR: All right well we know that they are supporting him so let me turn to Mr. Brubaker who wrote a prominent op-ed in the newspapers decrying

this hypocrisy. What do you say to the pastor who has just made those comments?

BREWBAKER: Well I would say more generally that the Roy Moore situation is just a symptom of a deeper problem when it comes to Evangelical involvement

in politics generally. I think you know as Christians a lot of American citizens ought to be involved in the political realm. But I think it might

be time for us to take a step back and observe sort of the way our involvement has taken shape and ask ourselves whether it really measures up

to the things that say that we believe.

For example, I appreciated Pastor Burns' reference to grace which of course is a single affirmation of Christianity. We're all sinners in need of

grace to be sure, but one of the implications of that is if we're sinners - - if we're all create creatures who are limited and finite, then our politics doesn't always need to be cast as a battle between good and evil

in some cosmic sense. We can learn from people who disagree with us, we can recognize our own need to be humble when we - here in the public square

and again this is not so much to speak of the situation with Judge Moore as it is just more generally to speak about some troublesome attitudes when it

comes to politics and the Evangelic church.

AMANPOUR: All right, let me play this sound bite that we have, part of an interview with one of the alleged victims, Leigh Coffman, she spoke out to

accuse Moore of sexually assaulting her when she was 14 and she said, we do not have that apparently, but she basically said that he seduced her. So

let me ask you then Pastor Burns, you talk about grace, you've just heard what Mr. Brewbaker has said, I mean I guess what people are trying to come

to terms with, is this politics triumphing over religion and over morality. Clearly the Republican Party says that it needs Mr. Moore's vote when it

comes to tax reform and the rest. And we've seen this sort of political defense play out despite the very pointed words from those who claim that

he seduced and abused them. What do you say to that Pastor Burns?

BURNS: Well I can only speak from the perspective of a pastor and a student of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The bible makes it very clear that,

as the professor said, we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and when I stated earlier that morality isn't the only qualification

for leadership, that doesn't mean that morality isn't important, it is extremely important. But I also understand that you have to have -- you

have experience, you have to have faith, you have to have wisdom to go along with morality.

If morality was the only qualification that we use to judge whether or not our leaders are qualified to lead then none of us would qualify to lead

because we all have skeletons in our closets.

AMANPOUR: I wonder, OK, I understand that we all have skeletons, presumably a lot of people who are outed or named and shamed or whatever

the word is would apologize or would admit or would talk about inappropriate behavior as many of those who have been outed already have

been doing. But here's the thing, a plurality of Republicans, according to the latest Quinnipiac poll, 43 percent of Republicans say they would still

consider voting for a candidate who has been accused of sexual harassment by multiple women versus 41 percent of Republicans, who would definitely

not vote for the candidate. On the other hand, 81 percent of Democrats say they would definitely, not definitely vote for someone, who was such

accused like that.

Professor Brewbaker, is that troubling to you, as well, the fact (pruality) of Republicans would still vote?

PROFESSOR WILLIAM BREWBAKER III, LAW PROFFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA: Well sure, it is troubling to me and I think it's (emblematic) again of a

deeper problem and that is sort of where our ultimate (hope) and (taximent) lie.

It is particularly troubling to me when folks want to highlight their belief in God in connection with political activities and then, become a

willing to hitch their wagons so firmly to a particular party or political candidate and really unwilling to say, to speak the truth when the truth

needs to be spoken, whether it's Judge Moore or anybody else. (Likely), when a leader starts defending the indefensible because it's so important we have 52 instead of 51 Republican Senators in the next

Congress, then I think that's a problem. And of course, it's not just Republicans, it's Democrats. It's not just folks on the right; it can be

folks on the left too. This is question of ultimate allegiance (to that) is really, really significant for the Christian believer.

AMANPOUR: I want to end by asking Pastor Burns, whether he's worried that this state of affairs are defending somebody like Roy Moore even under the

current circumstances, ends up damaging your church and your faith. For instance, (fellow pastor), Russell Moore said. "A church that worships

Jesus stands up for vulnerable women and girls." "A church that worships power sees them as expendable."

And, you know, the evangelical who said, "Oh, my goodness, look at these people, these girls who say they're fourteen, they look like they're

twenty." As if to say, that it is their fault and you've seen the backlash. You've seen the pictures of young girls who have said, you know,

this is me at fourteen and they clearly look like school children. So, are you concerned this (envelauche) is damaging to your faith and your, you

know, moral, moral of (pyridine)?

PASTOR MARK BURNS: Well, you know, Moore or the gentleman who made the comment about, you know, some of the women, a fourteen year old girls

are getting what that deserve, that is not my opinion. I am a church, our church is a church that worships Jesus and we're the same church that

serves the same Jesus that looked to the women who was accused of adultery and said, you without sin cast the first stone. Woman, go sin no more.

The same Jesus that said, that grace, Paul said that grace is efficient for thee. So, grace works for those young girls. Grace works for Judge Moore.

I think it's important that we have to examine all the facts. Christians understand that grace is a big part of our faith. The majority of the

world is, in many cases, we live in a very immoral society in America. And so, it is (bad) for people that don't think, who don't understand grace or

understand forgiveness, who doesn't, even accusation is not enough to just destroy a man's reputation when he has (included) himself to be an upright

man for the last forty years.

AMANPOUR: Of course not, of course not, accusation, of course not. If it was proved to your satisfaction, would you apologize and condemn him?

BURNS: Absolutely, I mean, I wouldn't think he would be fit to serve but I also understand that grace still forgives. Even if he was guilty, grace

still covers his sin, just like mine and yours.

AMANPOUR: All right. Pastor, Professor, thank you very much indeed, for joining us on this vital debate.

And, still to come, imagine a world where women will no longer suffer in silence and sexual harassment and abuse, really are fireable offences. As

more and more predators are publically shamed, we imagine the colleagues, the friends and the families trying to come to terms with the other side of

people they thought they knew.



AMANPOUR: And finally tonight as the sexual harassment scandal continues to gather momentum, imagine finding out that a friend, a family maker -

family member, a colleague - is one of the abusers. Someone you've respected and maybe even loved. Someone committing appalling acts. It's a

problem that women and men are grappling with all over the world now.

On CBS this morning, coworkers of Charlie Rose went on the show visibly shocked by a scorching admission following accusations against one of their

own. Addressing the topic, co-host, Gayle King, praised women who are coming forward and admitted that she's struggling how she felt in the wake

of the allegations.


GAYLE KING, CBS HOST: I've enjoyed a friendship and a partnership with Charlie for the past five years, I've held him in such high regard, and I'm

really struggling because how to you - what do you say when someone that you deeply care about has done something that is so horrible?


AMANPOUR: Well, CBS News has now terminated Charlie Rose's contract. A week ago, the comedian, Sarah Silverman, gave vent to the same feelings of

frustration and hurt when someone she loved did something so bad. This time, her good friend and fellow comedian, Louis C.K..


SARAH SILVERMAN: So I hope it's OK if I am at once very angry for the women he wronged and the culture that enabled it and also sad because he's

my friend. But I believe with all my heart that this moment in time is essential.


AMANPOUR: Louis C.K. issued a long admission of guilt and apology. The floodgates are still wide open. That is it for our program tonight.

Remember you can listen to our podcast at anytime and see us online at, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thanks for watching,

and goodbye from London.