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Sebelius: Clinton White House Doubled Down on Abusive Behavior; Released North Korean Prisoner Found Engulfed in Flames; Jamie Dimon Predicts No 2nd Term for Trump Over Economy. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired November 23, 2017 - 14:30   ET


[14:30:00] SYMONE SANDERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And I don't know if it's because he believes this is a competition, but I know that national security experts -- the former Obama administration and Bush administration national security officials have noted that the rules of engagement have not changed that drastically. So I think it's a little bit of a stretch on the president's part and I just wish that we could get some accolades and pats on the backs to our troops without taking digs at the former administrations.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Let's move past that and get to all of these stories. This wave, this movement, it seems, with regard to sexual harassment, right? And specifically assault by men in power. Here you have now Kathleen Sebelius, this is President Obama's former Health and Human Services Secretary, and she says David Axelrod -- she's saying her own party, Democrats, should be reflecting on how they handled those charges when they were leveled against former President Bill Clinton. Here she was.


KATHLEEN SEBELIUS, FORMER HEALTH & HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY (voice- over): Not only did people look the other way, but they went after the women who came forward and accused him. So it doubled down on not only bad behavior but abusive behavior and then people attacked the victims. And you can watch that same pattern repeat. And it needs to end. It needs to be over.

DAVID AXELROD, RADIO SHOW HOST (voice-over): Let me ask you a delicate question, is that -- was that fair criticism of Hillary, that she participated in that effort?

SEBELIUS: Absolutely. I think it's very fair.


BALDWIN: So, Symone, I mean, you know, Democrats, they have come to a reckoning over all of this, but you heard at the very end of that sound bite, she goes straight to the source saying the Clintons and specifically Hillary Clinton shares the blame. Is she wrong?

SANDERS: Look, I think there is a lot of very credible criticism to go around to Democrats, to the Clintons, to people that worked in and outside of the White House.

BALDWIN: To Hillary Clinton?

SANDERS: To Hillary Clinton, yes. To everybody. Look, I think it was a different time. Now, I want to be clear, I wasn't alive when one of these incidents -- these allegations were lobbed and then throughout the rest of the Clinton presidency, I think I was about 6 in 1996, but I do have Google and I have read. And I absolutely think times have changed. Perhaps Democrats and people, period, because I do not think this is a partisan issue, but perhaps people, period, we have come to a point in our history and our world where we are going to believe accusers and we're not going to give folks who have been alleged perpetrators, whether they be men or women, the benefit of the doubt and find excuses for them. And I think that's what's great about this moment that we're in, but, I mean, there is credible criticism to go around and we reflect on how Democrats handled those issues during President Clinton's presidency.

BALDWIN: Ben Ferguson, look what's happening right now, President Trump is not believing accusers. Where are the lessons learned?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think there are two parts of this. One, you look at what Hillary Clinton did, she didn't just, you know, push it under the rug and try to silence. She flat-out went on P.R. cams against women who accused her husband of multiple indiscretions and harassment against him when he was running for governor and also for president. So I do think that's a little different than saying, hey, Roy Moore says he's innocent. There has been issues of credibility with the accusers. They're waiting to see that yearbook flipped over whether that was a complete forgery. There are fair questions you can ask but we know for a fact and history is going to show this that Hillary Clinton and many of the accusers that came out against her husband, she didn't just stand by her husband, she went out there and tried to undermine and discredit them --


SANDERS: Well what about president --


FERGUSON: -- and completely destroy them.

SANDERS: What about President Trump? And there is credible criticism to go around. I noted that, but what about President Trump?

FERGUSON: I've said this last week --

BALDWIN: Symone? Hang on.


SANDERS: -- and 12 women have accused him of some form of sexual assault or sexual harassment.

FERGUSON: I don't think that Roy Moore or Al Franken should be in the United States Senate.

SANDERS: I said Donald Trump.

FERGUSON: No, but I'm saying these two individual cases we're talking about here, and you're talking about how other people handle them. These are the two that we see out there.

SANDERS: Donald Trump is a case right now. He's been credibly accused by 12 women.

FERGUSON: Let me finish. I think the president of the United States of America as a leader regardless of party has got to lead on these issues. When you're talking about politics and this coming up right before an election and you look at this yearbook, for example, and they've asked to Gloria Allred to release it and she has not. I think it's a fair and valid question when his assistant's name was D.A.

SANDERS: Look, I think --


FERGUSON: -- questions about complete fraud right before an Election Day. That is fair for the president to say that Roy Moore is saying he did not do this.


FERGUSON: I personally believe that Roy Moore should have stepped aside. That's my personal opinion on this.

SANDERS: What about Donald Trump? Donald Trump currently sits in the White House, the highest office in the land and he has been accused credibly by 12 women. We are not talking -- so it's one thing for Donald Trump and other Republicans to talk about Roy Moore, but we have to hold the president of the United States accountable. If we're going to talk about Bill Clinton, we also have reason --


SANDERS: -- room. And we have to talk about Donald Trump.

BALDWIN: OK. On that, happy Thanksgiving.

FERGUSON: Happy Thanksgiving.

BALDWIN: Thank you both so much --

SANDERS: Happy Thanksgiving.

[14:35:12] BALDWIN: -- Symone and Ben. I appreciate both of you here.

Coming up now, he was the American held captive by North Korea and released in 2010 after former President Jimmy Carter intervened, but now this tragic and mysterious twist after he's found dead in San Diego fully engulfed in flames. What happened? Those details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [14:40:53] BALDWIN: The body of a man found engulfed in flames in California has now been identified as an American formerly imprisoned in North Korea. Aijalon Gomes had been teaching English in North Korea before -- from China. This is back in 2010. He spent months and months in prison until former President Jimmy Carter arranged for his release. And now an off-duty California highway patrol officer happened to be driving near San Diego's SeaWorld on Friday when he saw Gomes on fire in a field running before collapsing. He was then pronounced dead at the scene. Investigators suspect Gomes' death was either an accident or a suicide.

So David Sanger is with me now, CNN political and national security analyst, and also with "The New York Times."

And so, David, if, and this is, again --. If his death is ruled a suicide, he would be the second American to have killed himself after being released from North Korean detention. My question to you, you know, once the government, you know, retrieves these prisoners, while they're back in the states after they've been in North Korea, is it their duty to make sure they are OK?


First, happy Thanksgiving --

BALDWIN: Thank you. Same to you.

SANGER: -- to your viewers.

And in this particular case, we can't seem to tell right now whether or not the individual who was -- who was on fire here, Mr. Gomes, was on fire because of an accident, a suicide or whether there was some criminal act. So far there has been no suggestion of that yet. In 2010, we didn't know very much about him. Jimmy Carter didn't say very much about when he brought him out, and so we didn't learn very much about him other than a brief interview he gave a few years ago in which he said that he had been kept in captivity that was beyond freezing. And that he was made to make bricks most of the time. And he said that it caused him great anxiety. So clearly, he was dealing with a lot of emotional issues when he came back, as you would fully understand, and you would think that the United States government would help treat people with this the way we would deal with a returning prisoner of war or anybody else who had PTSD.

BALDWIN: You would think, you would hope. So it was president Carter then who helped secure his release and now president Carter said he would be willing to help the Trump administration, David, in the North Korea standoff. Do you think that that would be helpful?

SANGER: Well, I think at this point it's going to be a little bit difficult to get president Carter in the midst of this because the North Koreans don't seem to be eager to talk. Even after the visit of a Chinese envoy recently. Frequently, for prisoner exchanges, they've asked to senior people to come, and among them have been president Carter, President Clinton, the former governor of New Mexico, who would go in periodically, and that was Governor Richardson. And we saw Jim Clapper, the former head of the director of National Intelligence, go in and do a release. You would think if they wanted to get a serious negotiation going they would ask for one of those four or somebody of similar status. And so far, they have not. And I think that tells you they're really not ready to go negotiate until they've proven that they've got the nuclear capability they feel they need to have.

BALDWIN: Right. That's the telling piece.

David Sanger, enjoy your turkey. If we're lucky, we'll see you back here tomorrow. Thank you so much.

SANGER: Good to see you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

On Twitter and on camera, President Trump often touts a booming economy, but, next, why the head of the country's biggest bank says Donald Trump will not see a second term.


[14:48:22] BALDWIN: As President Trump is praising the economy this Thanksgiving, citing great job numbers and the, quote, "highest stock market ever," the CEO of the country's biggest bank is actually predicting the president will not see a second term. Jamie Dimon, head of JPMorgan-Chase said he expects to see a new president in 2020. He also advised Democrats to come up with a, quote, "pro-free enterprise agenda" for jobs and economic growth.

So with me now on this Thanksgiving, finance expert, Monica Mehta.

Monica, thank you. Happy Thanksgiving to you.


BALDWIN: All right. You heard the Jamie Dimon prediction. No Trump come 2020. How do you see it? Do you agree?

MEHTA: Well, Jamie Dimon's prediction came with a big caveat, which is Democrats need to run someone who is moderate and not too far to the left. People have been looking for change in these elections in the last 20 years. You can argue since Clinton every election cycle has been we're sick of this, we want something new. Now Trump is in the position where he is the status quo, he lives in the swamp that he's trying to drain. He's going to have to try to convince voters in 2020 that he deserves to be there and that a voting population that's been looking for change should stick it out with him.

BALDWIN: What about to Bank of America clients this week. The bull market will end, stocks will peak and then decline. Do you see it that way, Monica? Explain what it will do to our economy. It's been looking pretty good. [14:49:53] MEHTA: It has been looking pretty good but we're way overdue for a pullback in terms of growth, and if we continue to see growth into august of 2018, this will be the longest bull market we've ever had in the history of the markets. So it's about that time to see a pullback. One of the reasons you see stocks edge higher and higher is not because the economy is the best it's ever been, it's really because for interinstitutional investors, there really isn't a better place to put your money. If you look abroad, if you look at bond market yields, all the different choices that investors have, the stock market is still the best place to get a return and that's because the fed has kept interest rates low for an unprecedented period. So just like when you look at your bank account and see you're not getting any interest, I think there is a whole generation of people who don't know what interest is anymore. One of the reasons you see the stock market is as high as it is because people are looking for some kind of return or yield on their money.

BALDWIN: So we have been sitting pretty, you know, economically speaking, and the president has been saying essentially, you know, you're welcome. Which, by the way, I definitely think he deserves some of the credit. He's been in the office over a year and it's been really good. My question to you is, also as there is a win for himself, right, and attaching himself to the great economy, is there also a risk if it starts to go south?

MEHTA: Well, Brooke, I don't know that I'd give him credit for the stock market or the economy. Just, you know, I think less than 15 percent of people own stocks, in fact, and 80 percent of stock market wealth is owned by 10 percent of the population. So it's one of those psychological barometers that we look at, the Dow keeps edging up and up and we feel good about things, but the fact is it impacts a very small portion of the population that see the upside from that. That's one of the reasons you saw Trump get elected during a time otherwise people would have looked at the stock market and said, hey, things are great, why do we need a change? The impact of the markets and asset appreciation hasn't hit everyone in this country in the same way. So, you know, going into 2018, there is definitely some risk that you're going to see a pullback, and that's because we're sort of -- we're all guessing. I think for every person who says that you're going to see markets implode in 2018, you find plenty of analysts that say it's going to continue to hum along, but, you know, what we're facing is the moment that we face some kind of big risk that dominos are going to fall really fast and it could be geopolitical risks, something happening in the Middle East, but right now the stock market is giving confidence and maybe we'll see people go out and shop well into the holiday season.

BALDWIN: Tomorrow morning, Black Friday. We shall see. Not I, but I know a lot of people get in on that for great reasons.

Monica Mehta, thank you so much. Again, happy turkey day to you.

A Republican Congressman apologizing over a nude picture scandal, but is he a victim of revenge porn? We're going to discuss that.

Also ahead, is the Trump brand taking hits because he's in office? The Trump Organization walking away from another struggling project.

But first, on this week's "Staying Well," a study finds learning how to dance is good for your brain and one Colorado couple says they are living proof.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I dance because I love it. I love everything from the motion and the music to the feeling of dancing with others.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suddenly, I had a place where I could fit in with people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel that dancing has slowed the deterioration of my memory.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dancing is so special because it's a physical activity that connects us to other people. Over 200 people took part in our study and some of them did brisk watching. One group did stretching and toning, and one group did dancing. All of them participated for six months. In all other groups, we saw the typical age-related deterioration of their brains. In the dancing group, we observed some improvement in one of the brain regions that is involved in memory.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Swing, swing, swing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We'll do probably 10 to 12 different dances, each one of which we social media need to learn.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Big thing for me it's a puzzle. You're putting the pieces together.

[14:54:21] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dancing has been a big contributor in me staying younger feeling.



BALDWIN: On this Thanksgiving, as friends and families gather all around the country to say thanks and eat a lot of turkey, I just wanted to take a moment to thank our men and women serving overseas who aren't at the dinner tables at home today. Instead, they are sacrificing for our freedom.

Last month, I had the honor of traveling to South Korea. I visited sailors stationed on the "USS Ronald Reagan" and talked to soldiers on the border of North and South Korea. And I asked them in each of our interviews, I said, please, share a moment for your loved ones back home. We'll air it on Thanksgiving. And this is what they told me.


LT. BRIAN ALLEN, U.S. NAVY: Happy Thanksgiving, Kyla, Ukari, and Bob Allen, Jeremy Allen, all my brothers and sisters in Idaho, and Nancy Allen in Colorado.

PFC. JOSHUA ROBERTSON, U.S. ARMY: I would like to say to Ronda Robertson and B.B. Robertson -- those are both my parents -- I'd like to say I love you guys very much. I apologize I won't be there for Thanksgiving and Christmas, but happy holidays to you guys. I will see you guys soon.