Return to Transcripts main page


Protests Break Out Over Trump's Jerusalem Decision; Trump Jr. Won't Reveal Details of Call with His Father. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired December 7, 2017 - 07:00   ET


MILLER: We need to think more broadly about what constitutes American national interests. This was, in my judgment, ill-advised, ill-timed, and ill-conceived. And there's going to be a price to be paid, even though that price may not be as severe as some of the world enders believe.

[07:00:25] CUOMO: Well, we hope these scenes are short-lived. Ian Lee is on the ground. We're watching kids getting treated, you know, these teens, young men. I don't know how old they are. We're showing you the scene now, but you're not seeing what I'm seeing, where Ian Lee is. In fact, he's probably going to have to move. This is one of those setups where they've set up a blockade in front of the security forces. They've lit things on fire.

There's Ian Lee now. And there's going to be reaction from the military there. There almost always is. Ian Lee's in a tough spot.

MILLER: Chris, keep your eye on tomorrow's Friday prayers on Harem esh-Sharif, Temple Mount. That will be an indicator of where this is going.

CUOMO: All right. Aaron David Miller, thank you so much for the sophistication of your perspective on this.

MILLER: Always a pleasure, Chris. Thank you.

CUOMO: The pleasure is ours. We're following a lot of news, including what you were just watching there in Ramallah. Let's get after this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no attorney/client privilege here whatsoever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Capitol Hill is a circus. It's ultimately Mueller's team to tell the truth to.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has a very serious case of amnesia.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Enough is enough. I do not feel that he should continue to serve.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Senator Franken set to make an announcement about his future in the Senate today. SPEIER: Sexual harassment is nonpartisan. And if the standard

applies for Al Franken, it should be the same standard for Republicans.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Jerusalem is Israel's capital.

NIKKI HALEY, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: This is just a reality check. Palestinians and Israelis need to live in the situation that they settled together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ... from any future role in peacemaking.


ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo and Alisyn Camerota.

CAMEROTA: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to your NEW DAY. Don Trump Jr. refusing to reveal details to congressional investigators of a call with his father about that now-infamous Trump Tower meeting last summer between the Trump campaign and Russians. Don Jr. using attorney/client privilege. How does that work?

CUOMO: It doesn't. Unless lawmakers allow it to. And that's what appears to be happening. We'll take you through what the right answer is and what's being done.

Meantime, a whistle-blower tells a House committee that former national security adviser Michael Flynn texted a business colleague saying Russian sanctions would be, quote, "ripped up" as one of the Trump administration's first acts. A majority of Senate Democrats are now calling for embattled Senator Al Franken to resign as the number of women accusing him of sexual misconduct grows. Franken is set to make an announcement about his political future today.

We have it all covered. Let's start with CNN's Evan Perez live in Washington with our top story.


Donald Trump Jr. says that attorney/client privilege is the reason why he doesn't have to tell lawmakers what he and his dad talked about this summer after news reports emerged about this 2016 meeting with Russians.

Now you'll remember this is a meeting that occurred at Trump Tower in which the Russians promised to provide Junior with information to undermine Hillary Clinton's campaign. The president's son met yesterday with House investigators to answer questions for several hours. And he told lawmakers that the father/son conversation happened after Trump Jr. issued a misleading statement about the Trump Tower meeting and, ultimately, he released e-mails showing what the meeting was really about.

Trump also told investigators that he spoke to Hope Hicks, one of the president's closest aides, as they scrambled to prepare a statement for the media. That conversation occurred while the president was traveling overseas. And as we reported, White House aides and the president himself worked on board Air Force One to prepare that initial misleading statement, which claimed that the 2016 Trump Tower meeting was about adoptions.

Now, we know that the Trump Tower meeting and the White House response are under scrutiny by Special Counsel Robert Mueller. Now neither Trump Jr. nor the president are lawyers.

But Trump Jr. said that lawyers were present for the conversation, and so it's covered by attorney/client privilege. Democrats certainly dispute that idea. But it appears that, as long as Republican lawmakers allow the privilege claim, the president's son won't have to provide more details about those conversations to Congress -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: All right, Evan, thank you very much. You've given us a lot to gnaw on.

Joining us now are CNN political analysts John Avlon and David Gregory. So David Gregory, it does not sound like the House Intel Committee got what they were looking for yesterday. In fact, Adam Schiff and Jackie Speier both talked about how he was not forthcoming. Let me just play you Jackie Speier saying that she thinks he might have amnesia.


[07:05:06] SEN. JACKIE SPEIER (D), CALIFORNIA: He has a very serious case of amnesia. And he was pretty nonresponsive on a lot of issues that, frankly, he would have a recollection of considering it was just a year ago that many of the events took place when Donald Trump was the candidate. He was by his father's side. He was campaigning with his father. And you get the impression in listening to him that he didn't spend much time talking with his father.


CAMEROTA: So now what, David?

GREGORY: Well, I think a couple of things. One, it certainly strains credulity to believe that, while he's had recall about what the meeting was about and what it wasn't about, ultimately, that he wouldn't remember how to deal with it publicly, especially amid reports that his father is the president was dictating what the response ought to be from all of this from Air Force One. So that's problematic.

But it also showings you this congressional committee is going to hit certain road blocks in getting to the bottom of whether there was any attempt to obstruct this investigation. And perhaps Mueller's team is finding similar road blocks. We simply don't know.

But we know that this goes to this second piece of the investigation, which is the extent to which the president has tried to shut it down. T goes to that ultimate question of why? You know, why is he so worried about what may ultimately be found?

CUOMO: Well, might they hit road blocks? Yes. Might they create road blocks? That's what we're seeing. This is not how the attorney/client privilege gets asserted.

Homework. Google U.S. Shoe, S-H-O-E, attorney/client privilege. You'll see the five steps for it.

AVLON: Too early to Google.

CUOMO: These are facts, OK? They allowed him the privilege, because they wanted him to have it. He does not deserve it under the law. Usually an attorney would assert it. It has to be an exclusive relationship, by dint of the fact that Trump was present, there can be no privilege. That's the law. That's the rule. But they allowed it anyway. And that's why it is a metaphor for the constipation of this process.

They are going to do what is politically expedient. That's why so many call for Mueller. That's why people call for an independent commission instead of these partisan panels. And this is the proof of it. He can say he doesn't recollect. That's his right to do it. But what they're doing is arguably not right, which is helping someone not avail themselves of questioning.

CAMEROTA: Sorry. We're out of time. I appreciate the tutorial. I'm kidding you.

AVLON: No, it's important. But I think it underlies sort of the hypocrisy of partisan panels which inherently are not interested in the truth. They're interested in self-preservation.

CUOMO: He'll put his hand on the column and say, "Base! Base!" And then the other guys start counting. "We only have ten seconds. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven!" "Base!"

AVLON: I think we should institute tag congressional testimony. Look, this is convenient amnesia. This is politically driven self- preservation, political amnesia. And it is what it seems to be. He's trying to avoid answering questions that he knows will be complicated, complicating or inconvenient to the president. We know there is a pattern of denying any connection with the Russians. And then that keeps being belied by the obvious, by the evidence. The problem, as you point out, is that when partisanship starts overwhelming the search for truth, that undermines credibility in our institutions and Congress in particular. It's beneath the severity of the circumstance we're dealing with.

GREGORY: You know, one of the things I'm interested in that we don't talk about a lot, that I think would obviously be crucial for the investigation, all of these investigations, is if, when and whether there's any Russian source that actually flips and starts providing information from the other side of this alleged or suspected transaction of collusion. That's the thing that I'll be so interested to see over time. Because I wonder, you know, short of that whether you're going to have anything, you know, that implicates anyone in any kind of collusion during the campaign.

CUOMO: All right. So let's go from where you have a clear standard and the politics are just prevailing to one where you don't have any standard and the politics seem to be prevailing. With Franken, he's going to give his announcement today. It seems to stand to reason. It would be hard for him to stand up to this pressure. But David Gregory, can you make the argument that maybe he should? Maybe you shouldn't allow a gang of your party members to force you out of an elected office. Maybe...

CAMEROTA: Before the Ethics Committee comes to a conclusion.

CUOMO: Due process. Just like Roy Moore, if he wins, and the voters put him in, this idea that, well, they'll never seat him. Yes, they will. They have to go through an expulsion process, which has almost never been successful. Should they be able to get rid of people this way?

[07:10:04] GREGORY: Here's the -- here's the tension in that, right? There is a playbook for that. And that is Roy Moore and the way he's saying, "No, let's put it to the people, and I've got an election."

Now, Roy Moore has an election a lot faster than Franken does. The tension is between that and making the argument that he could make versus, well, what's for the good of the party? All right. This is a power play on the part of Democrats so that they have -- they can say, "Look, we stood up even when it was our own to do the right thing. And we'll use this cudgel against Republicans," because Republicans won't stand up to their own decisively to really push, you know, Roy Moore despite the fact that they did initially.

That's what Democrats are doing. And they're no doubt saying to him, "Hey, look, the game is up here. You've got to do this for the best, for -- you know, to preserve the best for the Democratic Party." That's where the tension is.

CAMEROTA: Corey Lewandowski made an interesting point, interesting logic. Well, Al Franken, he's apologized. He's admitted some of this, so he should go down, whereas Roy Moore, he's denied it. So he can be installed, and he can carry on to live another day.

AVLON: Yes. I think denial and deflection as a strategy, sort of ennobling that and saying, "Well, folks get a pass when really, it's about partisanship. Again, you know, it undercuts the severity of what we're dealing with as a culture. That said, Al Franken is facing a -- what happened yesterday was extraordinary.

I mean, within a period of hours, the vast majority of his colleagues, Democrats in the Senate coming out against him. Now, it's a sixth woman making an allegation that is very serious. But I think the question does become the Democrats are going to say, "We need self- evident moral clarity when we take on Roy Moore." Got it. We understand the political calculation. But the due process piece is troubling. And that does create a dangerous -- a troubling precedent.

CAMEROTA: John Avlon, David Gregory, thank you very much. CUOMO: All right. We've got to take you abroad to what's going on

over the move of the embassy to Jerusalem. There are protests are breaking out in the West Bank now, after President Trump's decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

This comes as the top leader of Hamas calls for a new uprising against Israel. CNN's Ian Lee is live in Ramallah with the breaking details.

Ian, I was worried for you, brother. I was seeing you there. I know how those situations can devolve very quickly. What is the state of play on the ground?

IAN LEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Chris, this is really a pitched battle right now. You have, on the side we're at, we have Palestinians, they're throwing rocks. You can see some of them have slingshots here, putting rocks in them and then tossing them at the Israelis.

About, I would say, a few hundred yards in that direction, you have Israeli troops there. We've heard tear gas being fired. We've seen rubber bullets being fired. We've seen a number of people who have been injured, ambulances. You can see over here there's a number of ambulances that have staged that are getting ready to ferry anyone who's injured to a hospital.

I want to show you something else, Chris. Down here you can probably see a lot of skins of onions. They're all over the place. Pieces of onions. And that's for the tear gas. That helps counteract the effects of tear gas. That's something you see at protests like this.

And this one in particular is -- is a protest site that happens from time to time. But we haven't seen this number of people here. And when you speak to people, there's a lot of anger, palpable anger directed towards the United States, directed towards Israel. And these are the warnings that we heard from leaders is that -- that -- we've got to move back a bit. Hold on a second.

CUOMO: Yes. Yes, Ian, move back. When they start shooting those canisters, it will overwhelm you really quickly if they hit the ground near you. So safety first. Keep moving back. Make sure your cameraman is getting back, too, the photographer.

LEE: Yes. Yes, we're -- I think we're OK at this point now.

You know, you get these kind of situations where you get a couple of people start running and then you've got that herd where everyone, everyone starts running. It does create that dangerous situation.

But, you know, this is -- this is a situation that a lot of leaders in the region warned about, that you could stoke violence and stoke tensions like this. And -- and this is really what we're seeing play out here in Ramallah.

CAMEROTA: Yes, we've heard that. I mean, look, this is what yesterday we reported on, that there were some Palestinian leaders. Some was just a grassroots movement that called for three days of rage in reaction to what President Trump had said.

Do you get a sense, Ian, and maybe you can't because you're there and so consumed, but is it just Ramallah or is it stretching -- the three days of rage, is it stretching across the region?

LEE: What we know in the West Bank is that Bethlehem has also had protests; it's had clashes. And this is Thursday. Fridays are usually the main days of protests here. And so if we're seeing this many people come out on a Thursday, you could expect to see something similar on Friday.

[07:15:09] Now today, Palestinians did call for a strike. Businesses are closed. Schools are closed. And you're seeing a lot of people go out in the street and voice their anger.

Over here, I want to show you this. This is kind of what you're seeing is, the tires that they are burning. And that's what's creating this thick, black smoke that you see in the distance here.

Also, an ambulance over here. It looks like someone was injured. They're rushing someone there. But this is really the scene. This is the reality here in this part of Ramallah where -- we're going to move back some more now.

CUOMO: Yes, hey Ian, listen, get to safety. We get the sense of what's happening on the ground. You let us know if the situation changes. But stay safe, all right. We hear them firing the tear gas. Get out of there.

LEE: The tear gas is coming in.

CUOMO: Get out of there.

LEE: Yes. We're out.

CUOMO: Just keep running, Ian. Don't worry about broadcasting.

You know, the problem is when this tear gas hits, if that's what it is. There are lots of different combitents (ph) that they can use to disperse crowds over there, it hits you so fast.


CUOMO: And you can't move anymore. It literally freezes you in place. I don't care how many onions you have.

And there's a mixed bag with those tires also. They create almost instant thick black smoke.


CUOMO: It's a distraction. But it also removes the field of vision from the military on the other side. And very often, it becomes a reason for return of force.

CAMEROTA: You can see people there struggling afterwards. Let's check in with Ian. How's -- Ian, can you hear us? OK. Ian, how are you?

LEE: Yes, I can hear you.

CAMEROTA: What's happening?

LEE: I'm all right. We're OK. They just released a volley of tear gas towards the protesters. Usually from one of their trucks -- OK. We've got an ambulance coming through. We were able to push back the crowd. But you get these volleys of tear gas, usually from a truck that fires a number of canisters -- we've got to move off this side again. Ambulance coming through.

CAMEROTA: Are you watching?

CUOMO: Hey, Ian, do you have any sense on the ground there of what degree of resistance is forming there on the street? Are you seeing weapons or are you seeing just the typical slingshots of things being thrown and lighting things on fire? Have you seen any other weaponry?

LEE: We haven't seen any weapons.

CUOMO: Good. Good.

LEE: The only thing we've seen are rocks, slingshots, burning tires. But nothing of -- nothing to escalate in terms of weapons or guns or anything. We haven't seen any of that. This is just a kind of typical protest that you see where you do have these Palestinians coming out with the rocks and their slingshots and squaring off with the Israeli military.

CUOMO: All right. Ian, do us a favor. You take care of yourself and the crew there. We'll keep you on the IFB. Let us know if the situation warrants coming back to you. But safety first, OK?

LEE: OK, Chris. Will do.

CUOMO: All right. Thank you very much for the eyes and the calm in that situation. Ian Lee is one of many top-notch pros that we have.

Let's bring back David Gregory back into this. Look, first of all, we have a raw reality on the ground, all right? It's very dangerous, because it can just tip into a bad to worse so quickly, David. And that's the reality. How long it lasts plays into the politics.

If the move was worth it -- one day, two days of this, some people injured. God forbid somebody dies. What's the political calculation at which point the move to Jerusalem becomes a negative?

GREGORY: Well, I don't think that the Trump administration was sufficiently worried about the tinderbox aspect of this that Jerusalem really is. And Aaron Miller was on the program earlier, talking about watch for what happens during Friday modern prayers at the Temple Mount, which is also the site of the Kotel, which is the Western Wall, the holy site for Jews. And Shabbat will be coming as we get into Friday evening there. So I'm not impressed that this administration has thought through the

ramifications of short-term violence. And they have an administration in Netanyahu's administration that is supportive of the decision. There is no existing peace process. So for the president to pronounce, well, we're going to take this move and maybe this will be the catalyst for the peace process, I think the opposite is potentially true here.

CAMEROTA: John, I see it as a little different, just based on the surrogates of the Trump campaign that we've spoken to. They're not going to be cowed by threats of violence. This is -- they understand that it's a tinderbox. They understand that something could erupt. And they're not -- and Donald Trump is not going to let that stand in the way of a campaign promise that he made. I mean, this is how they've explained it to us.

AVLON: And I think that's how they see it themselves. The protests are predictable. This is not surprising. The question is degree of escalation.

When the president spoke yesterday, he used the rhetoric of peace. You know, "We're going to try to reset. The goal is peace." But certainly, if that is the goal, it is going to go through increased escalation of some kind of violence.

The question is how much will this tinder box be lit? Will it be contained to, you know, areas of Jerusalem or could it go wider? Because everybody knew this was the reason that presidents had traditionally said, "We may have promised that during the campaign, but the U.S. embassy functionally needs to remain in Tel Aviv."

CUOMO: Right. Now, these are live pictures from Bethlehem. They are shooting off munitions there. This will obviously repel any type of protesting that's going on, violence in the streets. They obviously have a lot more range there. You see water being deployed, as well.

This is Bethlehem. We're seeing similar types of violence in Ramallah. This was what was warned about, even by officials around the president, saying, "Let us beef up security. Give us time before you make this announcement."

But now we're discussing the political implications of this. Is this a sign that this was a mistake or is it a sign that it was the right move? That was what John Avlon was just talking about, Gregory.


CUOMO: That "We're not going to let violent people bully us out of making the right decision." The White House using what we're seeing in our screens right now as a reason that this was the right move.

GREGORY: Well, the notion that you're going to start off a peace process with this as a beginning, I think is -- is very difficult. We don't know. This is the beginning. There's certainly reason to believe that there could be widespread protests. We've heard warnings about this. And yet this is being welcomed by the Netanyahu government.

Again, from a strategic point of view and the United States administration, there doesn't appear to be an indication that they have a truly global strategy here for how they want to approach Mideast peace. I mean, this is coming at a time when you have a gutted State Department and you have a secretary of state who does not seem to be that enthusiastic about diplomacy, period. And to reach in and to give away a major concession like this to Israel before a peace process is amazing without extracting any kind of concession.

CUOMO: Right.

GREGORY: So if this is a president who wants to strike the ultimate deal, he has rushed ahead to the end and made it a pronouncement that I think -- I know Palestinians will find highly prejudicial.

And I do think it's worth noting the religious dimension to this. The extent to which this is a big move for evangelical Christians for religious reasons, not just political reasons.

AVLON: Sure. But I think Chris pointed out something very important. That Secretary Mattis had requested more time.


AVLON: That this apparently is something the


AVLON: ... that State and Defense had said, "Give us time to bolster our defenses against exactly this kind of eventuality." That was denied for whatever reason, presumably a political calculation.

But you know, the Mideast peace was outsourced to the president's son- in-law. This was moved forward, ahead of the Defense Department's recommendations. And now we're seeing the beginnings of a predictable protest.

CUOMO: And just to be clear, we do not believe that what you are is seeing there is mortar fire. You know, all over social media people are saying they're firing at the protesters. Those look like launchers for tear gas. And that is not a long gun on that white truck. That is a water cannon. So let's just keep this in perspective of what we're seeing here. As the situation on the ground changes, we'll bring you new information.

CAMEROTA: OK, gentlemen. Stand by, please. And we want to bring in now Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island.

Senator, I know that you've been watching these developments there in Ramallah and Bethlehem along with us. What are your thoughts?

SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D), RHODE ISLAND: Well, the public objection is one thing. I think there are factions within the Trump White House that think this all makes good theater for elements of their base. I think what's really dangerous is what this means for our

relationship with Turkey, which we still depend on for a lot of basing...


WHITEHOUSE: ... for our military efforts in the Middle East and with the Saudis, who the Trump White House have bent over backwards to accommodate as our new best friends in the region. If we look to the Saudis like we're untrustworthy, that limits our capacity to move with them against Iran. And if the Turks decide that this tears it in some respect, with respect to their support for our military operations, that creates very, very significant problems. So...

CAMEROTA: But Senator -- Senator, I just want to stop you for a second. I mean, what gives you any indication that this is political theater and that the administration is somehow reveling in this as ginning up their base?

[07:25:00] WHITEHOUSE: Well, I think it's what the person before me just said. That, for really strong evangelicals, this is kind of part of the biblical prescription that Jerusalem shall return and all of that. And so I think it's a dangerous idea that let those religious beliefs get ahead of our national interests and our diplomatic interests.

CAMEROTA: Look, what the White House, I believe, said -- I mean, at least this is what is some of the surrogates told us yesterday -- is that three days of rage doesn't stop the president -- a threat of three days of rage doesn't stop the president of the United States from doing what he thinks is right. He's not going to be cowed by threats of violence in Ramallah or the West Bank. There's often violence there. So why let that stop policy and a campaign promise?

WHITEHOUSE: The point is, this may be a good deal more than just the Arab street speaking. After what we've seen from, in particular, the Saudis and the Turkish prime minister, we have, I think, some real diplomatic issues. And if they really decide that they're -- that this is a big deal and that they need to push back against us, then they can hurt us in important ways, and it can really degrade our ability to be effective in that area.

CAMEROTA: But just so I understand, "more than the street speaking" means this is a proxy for something?

WHITEHOUSE: No. I'm saying that there's a difference between what the political leaders in our allied countries say versus the street. And if the political leaders in the allied countries are upset, and it seems that they are, then we may have a lot less room to work with them on other issues.

It's important to find a coalition and keep it together. And if the Turks are mad enough that they're going to start degrading their support for our military efforts, if the Saudis are angry enough that they feel they've been cornered into a position where they can't work with us on other things, then those government-to-government problems have real ramifications.

CAMEROTA: Look, the president -- Donald Trump promised this on the campaign. This was one of his campaign promises, that he was going to move the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem. So, you know, he won. And so what would you have him do?

WHITEHOUSE: I think he owns the consequences for his decisions, like any president does. And that to listen to the advice of our senior diplomats, to listen to the advice of your senior allies, and to listen to the advice of your military experts is not something that ought to be beyond the prerogatives of the president of the United States.

A campaign promise is one thing. Governing is another. And listening to responsible voices around you is a part of governing.

CAMEROTA: Senator, we're going to continue to monitor this while you and I move on, because there is other pressing -- other pressing matters to get to today. We've just learned, CNN has just learned that Senator Al Franken will be addressing the nation, as well as all of you, his colleagues, from the Senate floor today and be making an announcement.

These are on our screen, the list of at least 34 fellow senators and lawmakers who have called for his resignation. What do you want to see happen today?

WHITEHOUSE: Well, I think Senator Franken has a pretty clear choice. I think he can either announce that he will be resigning and move on to another chapter in his life, or he can say, "Look, I'm entitled to my day in court. I have not had my say yet."

CAMEROTA: and which one do you think is appropriate? Should he wait for the Ethics Committee? Which one do you think you'd like to see?

WHITEHOUSE: I'm -- I'm on the list of people who've urged that he should resign at this point.

CAMEROTA: But why not wait for the Ethics Committee?

WHITEHOUSE: But he is within -- he is within his rights to ask for that. And he knows -- he was in those rooms. He was in those situations. And if he wants to stand and fight and defend this through the process that we've set up in the Senate, he has that right.

CAMEROTA: Well, why are you calling for it, before the Ethics Committee reaches a conclusion?

WHITEHOUSE: I think it had reached a point where there were enough allegations and enough credible allegations, and there was a very significant leadership move here that had made, I think, his position hard to sustain.

But again, this is a decision that Senator Franken gets to make. And he would be within his rights to say, "I am going to stay and see this process through and let my colleagues judge me on a complete record and a recommendation from the Ethics Committee, rather than what's just appeared in the public forums."

CAMEROTA: OK. Let's move on to the Russia investigation. It doesn't sound as if the House Intel Committee got what they wanted out of Don Junior yesterday. He invoked attorney/client privilege, which is, you know, specious. And they also felt that he exercised amnesia instead of being forthcoming. Your committee, Judiciary, Senate Judiciary, do you think that you can do better?

WHITEHOUSE: It's hard to tell. We've been up against a lot of those same stratagems. We've had the attorney general come before us and have failures of recollection.