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Train Derailment in Washington; Train Accident Causes Multiple Fatalities; Audio From Inside Derailed Train. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired December 18, 2017 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 6:00 p.m. in London, 9:00 p.m. in Moscow. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

We begin with the breaking news. Police say there have been multiple fatalities after a high-speed Amtrak train derailed near Olympia, Washington.

The train was on its inaugural run between Seattle and Portland with 78 passengers and five crew members on board. At least one of the cars can be seen dangling off the overpass above the highway below.

Let's go to CNN's Paul Vercammen. He's following this story for us. Paul, what exactly are police investigating at this point? Update our viewers.

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What they're telling us is that 77 people have been transported for treatment at local hospitals. And as you can tell by the picture, it is clear that there were also people who have been treated on scene.

They're using this term, multiple fatalities. And these fatalities would have occurred on this high-speed train. They say nobody was killed on the ground, somehow, miraculously, when the train derailed and went onto busy Interstate 5.

As you pointed out, Wolf, this was the inaugural run of this high- speed train between Seattle and Portland. The inaugural run did not come without controversy.

Among others, the mayor of Lakewood, Washington had been stinging in his criticism of this run, saying that he thought perhaps it was too dangerous. And he even went so far as to say that he thought that someone might be killed.

So, on this opening run, we now have an accident. We have 77 people transported to hospitals and we have multiple -- no more context that that, multiple fatalities -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Paul, do we have any idea how fast that train was moving? VERCAMMEN: No, it would be pure speculation at this point, Wolf. Anywhere between 40 and 80 miles per hour per chance. They talked about it being a high-speed train, but we do not have that nailed down.

BLITZER: And, basically, what we're hearing is that traffic along that interstate, that's obviously come to a standstill. But people are -- a lot of people on that -- on that train -- there are multiple fatalities, but a lot of people are being rushed to hospitals, even as we speak.

VERCAMMEN: That's correct. And they also went a step further. This is Dupont, Washington. It's a small city of 8,000. This is between Tacoma and Olympia. And one thing that they were worried about, you were talking about this traffic issues, that southbound Interstate 5 completely clogged up.

What they're telling friends and family of those on the train who were clear survivors and do not need any further treatment, do not go to the accident scene. They're telling people that they need to go to the Dupont City Hall for reunification -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Paul, Stand by.

I want to bring in CNN's Rene Marsh, our Aviation and Government Regulation Correspondent. Renee, I know you're working your sources. What are you hearing?

RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION AND GOVERNMENT REGULATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, I can tell you, Wolf, that the NTSB, they are tracking this very closely. We now know that they will launch to the site there to start their investigation. Because, obviously, everyone wants to know exactly how did this happen?

We know that this train was designed to be a high-speed train. We know that it features this special technology, essential that uses gravity so that it helps it to tilt through the curves so that it can maintain that speed.

But the question is, did something go terribly wrong? Looking at the images, clearly something did. We just don't know what.

So, once they are on the ground, they're going to have a few priorities. The first priority is going to be getting those black boxes. Because we've all been talking about the speed of the train. We want to know exactly how fast it was going and the black box will tell you just that.

Also, the interviews, with the people on board the train, are going to be so critical, as well as interviews with the engineer. We do know from Amtrak that there were 78 passengers on board. We know that there were five crew on board as well. So, those accounts are going to be so critical to piecing this all together.

And then, lastly, Wolf, of course, they're going to be paying very close attention to the tracks. Was there anything wrong with those railroad tracks that caused the situation that you're looking at there?

Right now, unfortunately, so many questions that are unanswered. But the NTSB, I do know, they'll be flying commercial. So, it's going to take some time before they actually get on the ground out there. But I do know that they are prepping to take off for Seattle, as we speak.

BLITZER: Rene, stand by.

Congressman Denny Heck of Washington State is joining us. It's his district where this accident occurred. Congressman, I know you're being briefed. So, what can you tell us?

REP. DENNY HECK (D), WASHINGTON (via telephone): Well, first of all, Wolf, we all have to send our thoughts and prayers to the victims of this incredible horrific tragedy.

Secondly, I want to put this a little bit into context so people understand this. Interstate 5 is the major arterial between Mexico and Canada, as a matter of fact. And the fact of the matter is that this crash site is just a few miles south of one of the most congested parts of I-5 in all of that distance.

[13:05:12] So, we're talking about something that is fundamentally important to the movement of people in commerce in the area having been impacted here.

But the truth of the matter is I drive this road every day, Wolf. And, as a matter of fact, there but for the grace of god statement kind of a statement. Virtually every Monday of the year, my wife, Paula, and I get up at O dark 30 for her to take me Sea-Tac Airport.

And at almost exactly this time, she will have dropped me off and been headed south back to Olympia where I live and been almost exactly at this point at almost exactly this time. And I can't -- I can't exaggerate to you how I'm thinking about the people who miraculously escaped injury that were on the freeway.

People who got up this morning in Dupont, Washington, maybe they go to work in Olympia or people who got up somewhere in Pierce County and they were just getting an early start to go down to grandma and grandpa's in Portland, Oregon for Christmas. They're all going to be dealing with the trauma of this for quite some time, in addition to those who were fatally injured and those who were injured.

And, by the way, unfortunately, I think the fatality count is probably going to grow as we know it over the next few days.

BLITZER: I'm sure that there are a lot of serious injuries. Just the visual of these trains hanging over the -- these cars hanging over the Interstate 5, as you say, the major interstate out there on the west coast. It's awful, indeed.

Once again, there were, what, 78 passengers on board five crew members. What else are you hearing, Congressman, about injuries and fatalities? HECK: Well, what we have been told, thus far, is that there is a

minimum of three fatalities. And, again, I, unfortunately, think that that number probably will grow. I don't know by how much.

We know that there are several people that are being treated both at St. Peter's Hospital in Olympia, to the south of the accident site. And several people to the north at Madigan Hospital which is the hospital on Joint Base Lewis-McChord.

This site is just south of Joint Base Lewis-McChord which is one of the largest military installations in America and it has a world-class hospital. St. Peters is an outstanding hospital as well and I'm confident that these people are getting the kind of medical treatment they need.

And I think we should also acknowledge that almost instantly our first responders sprung into action and are on the site, both in the form of the state patrol and the county sheriff. Amtrak has swung into action and set up the friends and family hotline, so people can call the City of Dupont which is literally just a matter of a few thousand yards to the north of this site. Has set up the family reunification center at Dupont City Hall.

Everybody is putting their shoulder to the wheel to make sure that we're getting the help to the people that need the help.

BLITZER: One thing that's curious, Congressman, maybe you can explain. This was the inaugural run of the Amtrak Cascade's 501, the service there operating from Seattle and Portland. It derailed just south of Takoma, Washington. What does it say to you that today was the inaugural run of this 501 Cascade service?

HECK: Something went very, very wrong and there are some questions that we will demand to be answered. I do have confidence in the National Transportation Safety Board that, once on site and investigating, that we will get some clear answers, in time, as to what it is that went wrong that resulted in this.

And, oh, by the way, some of those pictures you've got there, Wolf, onscreen which I'm looking at now with you from my office here in D.C. There is that one car that not only landed on I-5, but landed upside down. It's just this -- a nightmarish image.

BLITZER: The Pierce County sheriff, Ed Troyer, told us, just a little while ago, Congressman, that, yes, we see that one car, and we're showing it right now, dangling over Interstate 5.

But then, he said there are three or four more cars upside down where you -- where you can't see them. He said that the department trains for these situations all the time. But this is pretty extraordinary, right?

HECK: This is way, way, way outside the usual bounds, even of accidents which, by their very definition, are random. And, oh, by the way, I should Ed Troyer is actually the spokesperson on behalf of the Pierce County sheriff. The very capable Pierce County sheriff is a gentleman named Paul Pastor.

BLITZER: Yes, he is the spokesman at Troyer. But he says we can't see three or four more cars upside down right now. We only see that one car dangling over Interstate 5 and raises all sorts of fears of the 78 passengers, five crew members who were on board.

[13:10:00] Anything else you want to say before I let you go, Congressman?

HECK: Thoughts and prayers with these families, Wolf.

BLITZER: Yes, ours are as well.

Denny Heck, the Congressman from that district in Washington State. We're going to get back to you as we get more information.

I want to go to our White House Reporter Kaitlan Collins. Kaitlan, I understand the president now has been briefed on this derailment?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: That's right, Wolf. The press secretary, Sarah Sanders, told CNN just a short while ago, that the president has been briefed and he is monitoring the situation going on in Washington right now.

We also know that the Department of Homeland Security secretary, Kirstjen Nielsen, has also been brief and is monitoring the situation. So, the White House and multiple administration officials watching what's going on.

And we expect to hear from the president in the next hour. He's supposed to give a speech, outlining his national security strategy.

So, Wolf, there is a chance we could hear from the president directly on this train derailment. And we'll keep you updated on any updates we get on this front.

BLITZER: All right, we'll be anxious to hear any updates you get.

Kaitlan, thanks very much.

I want to bring in Peter Goelz right now. He's our CNN Analyst, former National Transportation Safety Board managing director.

You look at the images, Peter. You hear what the officials, the sheriff and other Amtrak officials, are saying right now. What goes through your mind?

PETER GOELZ, CNN ANALYST: Well, this is a very difficult accident, Wolf. And Amtrak is one of those agencies that keeps struggling on the financial fronts. They never have the money to operate the way in which they want to.

And I think we're going to have to look seriously, once we are past this, at what kind of resources are we, as a nation, willing to allocate for passenger rail service? The freight guys do very well on safety. Passengers' service, whether it's in the inner city or for Amtrak, they really have a problem with their budgets.

BLITZER: I assume the NTSB officials who are now getting ready to leave Washington, head out to Washington State, they'll be looking at this -- the fact that today was the first day of this new run. The first day of Amtrak 501's -- what they call cascade service from Seattle to Portland.

What does that say to you that today was day one?

GOELZ: Well, they're going to go back and look very carefully at the work that was done upgrading the rails to allow for this 79-mile-an- hour speed. You need to make sure that the rails have been checked, that the rail bed has been checked, that the ties have been correct.

And when was the last time -- we assume this was new service. They must have run a rail alignment and checking device over the rails in the last 48 hours. That's where they'll be focused. Once they get the event -- the event recorders out of the engines, that'll give them some indication of whether there was braking applied, what the speed was, what was going on.

But this is -- it's going to be a tough investigation. It's going to go on for a number of weeks.

BLITZER: Do they normally do a practice run without passengers before they start a new service like this? And, once again, today was day one of this new service.

GOELZ: Well, absolutely. Common sense tells you, you know, if you're doing extensive track work, if you're upgrading a speed to a more competitive level, you would, of course, do a practice run. You would check every inch of that track line to make sure that when service started, you are ready for it.

This is a very difficult accident. There's a new leadership team at Amtrak. They're going to have their hands full.

BLITZER: And they'll be able to determine precisely how fast this train was moving when it had this derailment, right?

GOELZ: Absolutely. The event recorder will tell the speed of the train, will identify whether braking was applied. It will give the NTSB the basic nuts and bolts to look at before they start doing the human factors interviews to see what else was going on.

You know, and there was likely -- also, Wolf, there was likely a forward-facing camera on the train which may give us some help. I don't think it was a rear facing camera but there was likely a for the facing one.

BLITZER: They always -- the NTSB experts will always look at mechanical failure and human failure, right? GOELZ: They always look at the idea that, you know, an accident is a

series of events. They will look at the mechanical side. Were the rails in good shape? Were the engines in good shape? Did this -- did this train have its wheels checked so there were no anomalies there?

And then, they will look at the human factor side. Was the engineer being attentive? Was he driving at the correct speed? What was going on in the cabin just prior and during this accident?

[13:15:03] BLITZER: Because I know, in previous -- in previous Amtrak accidents along these lines, very often, and correct me if I'm wrong, it is a human failure, right?

GOELZ: Well, we go back to the accident outside of Philadelphia. And, right, the engineer lost situational awareness and entered into a serious turn at almost -- at more than twice the posted speed. So they do look at human factors and they do check to see that the engineer was following all of the procedures for that portion of the route.

BLITZER: And you remember that other derailment coming into -- towards New York City from upstate New York, that was human failure too, right?

GOELZ: Exactly. And, you know, this -- we rely a lot on the engineer at the front of this train to not only, you know, make sure that this train is functioning, you know, correctly. But also, you know, they're obligated to know the route, to know where they are and to know what the appropriate speed is. It's a challenging job, but hopefully, you know, we will get to the bottom of this.

BLITZER: And we don't know what -- whether it was human or mechanical failure. It's way too early to make any such determination in this horrific derailment.

But if you say the speed limit, what, for this train was 79 miles per hour, if it was going -- if it was going 85 or 90, that would be a problem.

GOELZ: Well, it would be an issue. My understanding is that the highest speed on this route was 79 miles an hour, which is, you know, pretty standard for an Amtrak. I don't know if this specific location was a 79 mile an hour spot, but that would have been the max. and you -- you don't want to exceed it.

And most of the time Amtrak engineers are dead-on. They stay within their operating requirements.

BLITZER: Yes, no, we're totally -- I totally agree. These accidents don't happen all that often. But when they do, the NTSB must come in, the National Transportation Safety Board. They must do a thorough investigation. And as you point out, you were involved in many of them when you worked at the NTSB.

GOELZ: Yes.

BLITZER: You were the managing director. You've got to learn from the mistakes. Whether human mistake or mechanical mistake, you've got to learn from all of these mistakes to make sure it doesn't happen again.

But what I hear you saying is that you believe there are serious problems with passenger trains as opposed to cargo?

GOELZ: Well, the freight rail industry has made tremendous progress over the last five years at increasing their safety record. They really have done -- invested a lot of money. The reality is, on the passenger side, whether we're talking about systems within cities like New York City subway or like metro or like Amtrak, they don't have the access to the resources that the freight guys have. And they -- you know, the reports, one after another, have indicated that maintenance has been deferred. And in this case, we know that they've upgraded the tracks apparently to pick up the speed. We want to make sure that they put all of the resources that should have been put there were put in place.

BLITZER: Peter, stand by. I want you to stay with us. But Mary Schiavo's joining us as well. She's the CNN transportation analyst, former Department of Transpiration inspector general.

Give me your thoughts, Mary, on the images that we're seeing, what we know so far.

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN TRANSPORTATION ANALYST: Well, I'd like to pick up on one thing that Peter said. He's spot on, as always.

But he mentioned the prior crash where the train was entering a curve. And while Peter was talking, I had the chance to look at a map of this area. This train was in -- about to entering or was entering a curve. And while they had to modify and tracks and test the tracks and all of this work was done at the beginning of December, local officials in Washington were highly critical of sending a train at this speed through this area because it had to, at some point, route to an intercity train line and they specifically warned that it needs to slow down at the curves in the track. And I always like to say, you know, whether it's train crash or plane crash or a semi, you know, the laws of physics are the only laws you can't break.

And so while they tested it, and Peter's right, they undoubtedly tested it. The NTSB will have this testing data that they did earlier in the month. But testing as opposed to running a full speed, full sized, fully loaded train over the same track changes the physics. It changes the dynamics of the forces that you have in that curve. And it's like -- it's like racing a motorcycle. You know, as you approach that curve, the centrifugal force on the train change dramatically. And I'll bet the NTSB is going to pay a lot of attention to the topography and whether that train was entering a curve. And like Peter said, they're going to have that on the black box. They're going to have that.

[13:20:11] BLITZER: So what you're saying -- what you're saying, Mary, is that the difference an empty train moving and going along, let's say, at 75 or 79 miles per hour and going into that curve, as opposed to a train with 78 passengers, five crew members and presumably lots of luggage. It's a different -- it's a different environment, right? SCHIAVO: Right. And in every kind of transportation accident, it's so

amazing how much just a few pounds and a few changes in -- in the forces on the vehicle can make. And given there was so much criticism of starting this high-speed run before today, when it started, and that they were worried about the speeds, especially as you're approaching curves, I would think that unless the black box has the answer on it -- and it could, Peter's right, with the cameras and the recordings and the throttle speeds and every touch to the controls being recorded on a modern train, they might know right away. But their next step will be to look at the testing that was done, how they did the testing, what they ran over those tracks and really what speeds they tested those curves at.

BLITZER: Just a reminder to our viewers, 78 passengers, five crew members, multiple fatalities we're now being told. Clearly a lot of injuries as well. Hospitals in the area, they're dealing with all the passengers who were injured, many of them seriously.

Let's get back to Peter for a moment.

When the NTSB team gets there, the black boxes, they will have all the information, but you're saying they're almost certainly, Peter, there were cameras on board too, video cameras, that will have recorded, not just what's going on forward looking, but inside the engine car as well?

GOELZ: I'm not sure whether it's got a rear facing, you know, a cabin facing camera. Certainly it's got a forward facing one. And it looks to me as though the engine is still on the track. And that's going to be a critical piece of information. Which means that whatever failed, failed after the engine, the heaviest part of the train, went over, that section. So if there are forward looking cameras, we'll have that. And if we're lucky, there may be rear facing ones as well.

BLITZER: If there were warnings out there, public warnings, Peter, that maybe this was not a good idea to have a high speed train going along this route, why would they decide to go ahead with it anyhow?

GOELZ: Well, I'm sure Amtrak had their engineers and their safety personnel review the route and they believed that the -- that it was appropriate to go at that rate. But, of course, you know, part of the pressure that Amtrak faces is, they have to be competitive. They've got to sell tickets. And if you're selling a high speed train, you know, from Portland to Seattle, it's got to make it in a certain amount of time or else it's not going to be competitive. And I think if this accident is going to raise that question on what kinds of decisions were made and whether they were made with the best information.

BLITZER: We're getting some Amtrak radio transmission audio, Mary and Peter. We're going to take a quick break, resume all of our special coverage. I want you and all of our viewers here in the U.S. and around the world to listen to this audio. We'll assess what it suggests right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [13:27:54] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BLITZER: Welcome back.

We're following the breaks news. A train derailment, an Amtrak train, out in Washington state. Seventy-eight passengers on board, five crew members, multiple fatalities and scores of injuries.

We're also now hearing for the first time from inside that derailed Amtrak. It's near Olympia in Washington state right now.

Immediately after the crash, after the train's conductor responds to dispatchers. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, guys, what happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ah, we were coming around the corner to take the bridge over I-5 there, right north into Swale (ph), and we went on the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Are you -- is everybody OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm still figuring that out. We've got cars everywhere and down on to the highway.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Copy that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Peter Goelz is with us. Mary Schiavo's with us as well.

Peter, you're the former National Transportation Safety Board managing director. That is a very, very telling audio we just heard from the conductor.

GOELZ: Well, it is. And I think it indicates that, say, that whatever happened, the engine was past the point where things started to go south. That the engine was still on the track. He was -- he was unaware of how serious the accident was or just beginning to know how serious it was and was clearly shocked.

BLITZER: Is that extraordinary or unusual that the first car, the engine, is still apparently on track -- on the track, but the cars behind it are dangling and off track and upside down?

GOELZ: No, not at all. I mean sometimes -- sometimes that the engine, whether it's, you know, it probably is 80,000 pounds may initiate some sort of problem with the rail, but it's past it when the rail splits and the following cars start to have problems. Or there may have been a problem with the wheels of one of the follow-up cars. We just don't know yet. But it's -- it's not all that unusual.

[13:30:05] BLITZER: Mary Schiavo's still with us as well. Mary, a former Department of Transpiration inspector general. Mary, I want to play that audio one more time. I want you and our viewers to listen