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Yale Psychiatrist Briefs Congress; Dow Off to Best Start; Coal Rescue Plan Rejected; King on Oprah's Run. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired January 9, 2018 - 08:30   ET


[08:30:00] MICHAEL ZELDIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: In combination with a lie under oath to Mueller gets you probably to obstruction. And then, as Renato says, he may not be indicted because of the constitutional question about that, but it would become the basis for a referral.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Oh, there's so much I want to chew on with you guys. Can't do it right now. Don't have time.

Michael, thank you very much. Renato, thank you very much. And, in fact, as I let them two go, that's why we're doing what we're doing tonight.

To start the new year, part of our special programming, we'll start double dipping here. 9:00 at night we will get it on with different types of people who are at the center of what's going on. Tonight we got lucky. We have former White House Communications Director Anthony Scaramucci. Why are we lucky? Because he knows the president in the way most do not. And he has an insight to the justification for things like that wall and why that should be balanced against all these lives with DACA. How does he justify it, because it's as close to the president's thinking as we'll get. We'll do it tonight.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Are you pulling an all-nighter tonight?

CUOMO: No, I will still sleep.

CAMEROTA: You're not?

CUOMO: I will just sleep a little bit less.


CUOMO: And, you know, look, you make it easy because I lean on you on a regular basis. Now I'll lean a little bit heavier.


CUOMO: And, unfortunately for you, Christmas pounds are there. So you may want to --

CAMEROTA: No, I know, you are heavy. I know that.

CUOMO: You may want to lean this way preemptively.

CAMEROTA: Right. That will be fun tomorrow. Make sure you tune in.


CAMEROTA: All right.

CUOMO: Let me tell you what I --


Lawmakers have called in this Yale psychiatrist to talk to them about President Trump's mental fitness. What did she tell them and what will they now do with that information? The Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin leading the call for the 25th Amendment joins us next.


[08:35:28] CAMEROTA: So, tomorrow, a group of lawmakers will meet with a Yale psychiatrist to discuss President Trump's mental fitness. One congressman has already proposed a bill to make it easier for Congress to invoke the 25th Amendment and remove President Trump from office if he's found mentally unfit.

Joining us now is that congressman, Democrat Jamie Raskin of Maryland.

Congressman, thanks so much for being here.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D), MARYLAND: Good morning. Delighted to be with you.

CAMEROTA: So this meeting tomorrow with the Yale psychiatrist, who called for that and what prompted it?

RASKIN: Well, let's see, I believe that Dr. Lee (ph) is coming to visit a bunch of people in Washington. She's been here before. The bill that I've introduced, HR-1987, I actually submitted back in April, long before I'd met her or even before their book came out.

CAMEROTA: And so what prompted that? I mean there's a couple of things that happened. Listen, this psychiatrist met in December with lawmakers. I know you've spoken to her a couple of times. You've proposed this bill. What's prompting this?

RASKIN: Well, the 25th Amendment in Section 4 says that the vice president in the cabinet or the vice president in a body set up by Congress can determine that there's presidential incapacity for reasons, physical or mental. And I think that concerns have been raised from the very beginning of the presidency about the cognitive state of the president, the emotional state of the president, and his ability to take care that the laws are faithfully executed, which is the principle job of the president of the United States. And so I don't take a position on whether or not the president currently has capacity or incapacity, but I'm taking the position that we've got a constitutional responsibility to act under the 25th Amendment to set up the body that's been called for.

CAMEROTA: I see. And so your is more focused. What you're calling for with the 25th Amendment is more focused on procedure than actual diagnosis of the president's mental fitness.

RASKIN: You've got it.

CAMEROTA: And I do want to get -- I want to get to that in second.

But, first, I just want to get to some of the things that Dr. Lee has said, OK. She has said -- she's described the president as dangerous. She has said he's becoming very unstable very quickly. Mr. Trump is showing signs of impairment. She hasn't evaluated him. How can she say those things?

RASKIN: Well, as I understand it, I'll let her speak for herself, of course, but as I understand it, she's taking the position and the other psychologists, and psychiatrists and neurologist who participated in the book are saying that there are warning signs and they consider it a very dangerous situation without rendering a specific diagnosis. And, of course, they've got a First Amendment right to do that, just like the president has a First Amendment right to declaring himself a very stable genius or Steve Bannon has the right to say that the president has totally lost it and so on. Everybody can opine.

But what we're looking for in Congress is a real process. And, luckily, because of division of Senator Birch Bayh and Senator Robert F. Kennedy, we've got a process that's built into the 25th Amendment, which is that we have the authority to set up this body, and it would be bipartisan, bicameral, independent, and it would have on it physician, psychiatrists, former statesmen and stateswomen, and they would be able to act in the event of a crisis.

CAMEROTA: A couple more questions before I get to that process.

You're right, she has a First Amendment right to say these things. However, the American Psychiatric Association really frowns on this. In fact, they have a protocol for not diagnosing somebody without evaluating them. And I know that maybe she hasn't given an exact like DSM diagnosis. However, what she says, that Mr. Trump is showing signs of impairment and that the president is very dangerous. I mean isn't that hyperbole?

RASKIN: Well, it may or may not be depending on your perspective. I mean, you know, they've been invoking what they call delusional behavior. So the president one day admits that the "Access Hollywood" tape is true, he apologized for it, and then a few months later denies the existence of it and says that the whole thing is fake news.

You know, there are newspapers -- I think it's "The Washington Post" that's collected what they call thousands of lies told by the president. The other interpretation is that these are not lies, but he actually believes them, and that is delusional behavior. But, again, you know, anybody can opine under the First Amendment but what we need is a process to deal with the possibility of a real crisis.

You know, we've got 535 members of Congress. We've only got one president of the United States. That's why we have the 25th Amendment that was adopted in the nuclear age. And the senators who introduced it and pushed for it, I read the entire legislative history, they said this is very serious business if you have a president who goes into a coma or loses his memory or has a psychotic break or for some other reason is able to render properly the powers and duties of office.

[08:40:08] CAMEROTA: OK, so as I understand it, the way the 25th Amendment is triggered is by the vice president. And your point is that Mike Pence will never do that. There's no scenario that you could imagine by which Mike Pence would do that. So you are trying to call for a revision whereby it would be what you think is a more impartial body than the cabinet, the president's own cabinet, or the vice president.

I'm just wondering, do you have --

RASKIN: Can I interrupt you there because it's not --

CAMEROTA: Yes. Yes. Go ahead. Yes.

RASKIN: Yes, that's not exactly right. It's not triggered by the vice president. If you read the 25th Amendment in Section 4, it says the vice president and the cabinet can act or the vice president and a body set up by Congress. So the body could initiate it. The cabinet could initiate it. Or the vice president could initiate it.

CAMEROTA: OK. So you're sort of planning for a rainy day of some kind. And I'm just wondering, are other lawmakers going along with you and signing on and do you have any Republican support?

RASKIN: So I introduced it back in April. Yesterday we had 60 co- sponsors who have joined on to it. And no Republicans have done so yet. Obviously a number of Republicans have expressed their concern about what they've described as erratic and unstable behavior in the White House, which one Republican senator described as an adult day care center.

Again, you don't have to take a position one way or another, but if you think that enough questions have been raised, then we think that we need to be prepared for this. And that's what the 25th Amendment's all about.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Last question.

In December, when you met with that Yale psychiatrist and there was a group of lawmakers that did so, we understand there was one Republican in there. Can you tell us who that was?

RASKIN: I was not part of any group meeting with Dr. Lee. She came to my office to visit me for a moment and had to go vote. So I just --

CAMEROTA: Well, right, but you know about it. And so, can you tell us who that Republican was?

RASKIN: I actually don't know. I'd be -- I'd be interested to know who it is, too.

But, look, I mean Senator Corker has raised very specific questions. Senator Flake has raised very specific questions. So, you know, I don't think we need to get to the level of investigative journalism to see who said what to whom. We've got a whole book written by these psychologist and neurologists and psychiatrists and we've got a number of members of Congress who have raised very legitimate and valid questions. So if we can get, you know, one or two levels above just the name calling that's been taking place the last few days, we can develop the process that the Constitution calls for.

Congressman Jamie Raskin, thank you very much for explaining it to us today. Great to have you on NEW DAY.

RASKIN: Thank you.


CUOMO: There's another component that's every bit as important. So whether Congress puts together the panel or it's the cabinet and the VP or whomever --


CUOMO: It then goes to Congress. And you need a two-third vote on it, I just don't see where the numbers are. Not now.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Listen, his point is that he wants the process in place, maybe it will never be triggered, but he wants the right process in place.

CUOMO: Right. They have the process, I just don't think they'll have the votes. But that was a good interview.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

CUOMO: It's good to hear it from him directly.

The stock market off to a strong start this year. What is driving the rally? And what are their concerns about how long it lasts, ahead.


[08:46:02] CUOMO: It is time for CNN "Money Now."

The stock market, as we all know, is off to one of the strongest starts in a long time here in 2018. Why? And will it continue?

Chief business correspondent Christine Romans joins us with more.

Of course, if you knew a real answer, you and I would be making a lot of money.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Oh, I'd be on an island in the Caribbean actually right now if I had that crystal ball that worked.

But, look, the New Year's rally, Chris, endures. The stock market futures are higher right now and the Dow is up more than 2 percent last week for the best first week since 2003. Big corporate profits are good news for Wall Street and a strong labor market, good news for main street, notably blue collar jobs, guys. Last year, construction and manufacturing added a combined 406,000 jobs of the 2 million jobs added overall.

What's missing there? Coal. President Trump promised to save coal country, but the struggling industry was ju7st dealt another blow. Regulators the president appointed rejected a proposal to subsidize coal a nuclear plant. Energy Secretary Rick Perry said it would support the nation's electricity grid. The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, FERC, disagreed, finding it unfairly limited competition favoring coal over natural gas over renewable energy and critics say that would hurt consumers. The competitive power market is keeping electricity prices near historic lows. This plan would have costs Americans up to 4 billion more a year in energy costs, raising rates and really only helping a handful of coal companies.


CAMEROTA: All right, Christine, very interesting. Thanks so much for breaking that down.

So, listen to this, Oprah's best friend, Gayle King, not quieting the 2020 speculation this morning. We'll tell you what she just said about Oprah's possible presidential run. That's "The Bottom Line," next.


[08:50:57] CAMEROTA: OK, Gayle King, you, of course, know her, she's Oprah's best friend. She's fueling speculation that Oprah Winfrey is considering a run for president in 2020. King addressed it this morning. Listen to this.


GAYLE KING, "CBS THIS MORNING": I do think, though, guys. I do think she's intrigued by the idea. I do think that. I also know that after years of watching the "Oprah Show," you always have the right to change your mind. I don't think at this point she is actually considering it. But, listen, there are people who are -- who have said they want to be her campaign manager, who want to quit their jobs and campaign for her. She loves this country and would like to be of service in some way. But I don't think that she is actively considering it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the record that is a -- that's a significant change.

KING: I don't think she's actively considering it.


CAMEROTA: OK. Let's bring in CNN chief political correspondent Dana Bash.

She's intrigued by the idea, not actively considering it. What does that mean?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: it mean she's leaving the door open. I mean Gayle -- look, first of all, can we just take a step back? Can you imagine, Alisyn, if Chris had to interview you this morning about whether your best friend is going to run for president? The whole thing is so --

CAMEROTA: Fantastic.

BASH: Weird.

And fantastic and delicious.

CUOMO: But that is being nice, because the real conversation would be if it were my brother who decided --

CAMEROTA: Right, and then I had to interview you --

CUOMO: And I thought that that was instructive because here's why. Here's what we know. Dana's right, she's leaving the door open. Why? Why not? There's no down side to speculation.

BASH: Right. Right.

CAMEROTA: Right, it keeps us talking about her.

BASH: Exactly.

CUOMO: And, you know, everybody will motivate her to want to do it.

BASH: Exactly. And --


CUOMO: And she'll get the best press of her life until she decides.

CAMEROTA: So, right.

BASH: And I don't --

CAMEROTA: So is your -- so is your brother running for president?

CUOMO: Nope. And that's the point is that if that were real, Gayle's got to leave. If it's real, Gayle's got to leave.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Why can't your best friend -- be on TV if your best friend is --

BASH: I don't know. I don't know.

CUOMO: Because how do you --

CAMEROTA: I've got to call my best friend.

CUOMO: Because how do you cover --

BASH: I think there are other things she can talk about.

CUOMO: All right. I watched Oprah, too, Dana, I have the right to change my opinion. Does she have to leave? Maybe she does. I guess they could do the coverage in a way where she never handles it.

BASH: All right, let's leave -- let's leave --

CUOMO: But it would raise questions for people.

BASH: Let's leave Gayle out of this for a second. Let's talk about Oprah.

The other thing that I thought was really fascinating, one of the major things that fueled the speculation all day yesterday was the fact that an "L.A. Times" reporter asked Stedman, her --


BASH: Oprah's long-time partner, about a potential run, and he said something along the lines of, I think that she would make a great president if the people want her.

Well, Gayle said this morning that he misunderstood the question. That he thought that the reporter said --

CUOMO: Silly man.

BASH: He thought the reporter said, well, what if -- what if she would like to be president, something along those lines, and so he said he misunderstood the question.

CAMEROTA: Because I think, hold on, Dana, because I think he said she would absolutely do it.

BASH: He did.

CAMEROTA: I think that was his quote, she would absolutely do it.

BASH: And Norah pressed Gayle on that and she said, I'm just telling you what Stedman said.

But the idea that -- just going back to the notion of Oprah running. The idea that Gayle is saying that she is intrigued does certainly signal to me that going into the speech, going into Sunday night's event, she was firmly planted in the notion that she would never run for office.

I think if -- because she is made of flesh and blood, the avalanche of reaction that she got from that speech and the fact that people took it as a political speech and an entree to Oprah 2020 is very interesting.

Now, I personally find it hard to believe that she will kind of, you know, take the brand of Oprah, take the idea of what she has built and open it up and open herself up to what you have to do to run for office, which is not pretty. CUOMO: So you're a no. You're a no.

BASH: I'm not a no. I'm not a no.

CUOMO: Oh, here we go.

BASH: I just have a lot of doubt.

CUOMO: So you're a maybe?

BASH: I'm a maybe, likely not.

CUOMO: And you?

CAMEROTA: I don't know. I think that Donald Trump broke the mold. And so I think that what you're saying, Dana, would have made sense two years ago, what you have to do, all of the boxes you have to check, you can't have any skeletons in your closet. But I think that we've learned that apparently voters are much more forgiving than we've given them credit for, and Donald Trump, obviously, has some things --

[08:55:06] BASH: You know --

CAMEROTA: That conventional wisdom would have said, don't allow you to win.

BASH: Right.

CAMEROTA: But he won. And so maybe --

BASH: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Our obsession with celebrity transcends everything.

CUOMO: So where are you?

BASH: I agree. But there's -- but there's something else.

CAMEROTA: Oh, I say, yes, she can run.

CUOMO: So -- no, so you -- no, not she can. You're so good.

CAMEROTA: Because I don't want to say if I think she's going to run.

CUOMO: Well, she's a maybe, likely not, where Dana is, and where are you Camerota?

CAMEROTA: You mean on whether I can get into Oprah's head --

CUOMO: Is she going to run or not? What have you got? I'm ready with an answer.

CAMEROTA: All right, yes.

CUOMO: All right.

CAMEROTA: What have you got?

BASH: How about you, Chris?

CUOMO: No. Nope. I don't think she does it.

BASH: Yes.

CUOMO: It's easy to do this dance that she's doing right now. All due respect, Oprah loves to be relevant. She will be more relevant than in a long time as long as she keeps this going.

BASH: One thing -- one thing we have to keep in mind, though, is that what Donald Trump did, besides the fact that he didn't have any experience in government, is he showed that emotion can lead the day and it's, in many ways, Oprah is sort of the ying to that yang. He tapped into peoples' anger. She's tapping into people's hope and optimism.

CAMEROTA: Still emotion. Still emotion.

BASH: Still emotion.

CUOMO: I second that emotion.

CAMEROTA: OK. That's awesome.

Dana, thank you very much for the weird and wacky "Bottom Line."

BASH: Good to see you guys.

CUOMO: CNN "NEWSROOM" with Poppy Harlow and John Berman right after the break.


[09:00:04] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. I'm John Berman.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Poppy Harlow. Top of the hour. And we do begin with breaking news.