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A Very Scary Half Hour In Hawaii This Morning; President Trump Making Racist Comments During A Bipartisan Meeting On Immigration; A Judge Temporary Stopped The Repeal Of DACA In Response To A Lawsuit Brought By Former Department Of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano, Former Secretary; New CNN Film "Trophy" Takes An Inside Look At Controversial Big Game Hunt. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired January 13, 2018 - 16:00   ET


[16:00:00] ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Missiles inbound. This is not a drill.

Those words went to thousands of cell phones and erupted TV shows, blasted over the radio, ballistic missile threat inbound. It took nearly 41 minutes for word to go out that the warning was not real. That's how all the frighten people in Hawaii believed that missiles launched from somewhere were on the way.

Hawaii's governor was on TV just a short time ago. His explanation, a worker inside the emergency center in his words, pushed the wrong button. It was human error, a false alarm.

On the phone with me now, CNN's Sara Sidner.

Sara, you were in inside that emergency center in Honolulu just a month ago. Did you get the impression there that this is a place where such an enormous mistakes that happened so easily?

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on the phone): I mean, I can't that pronouncement. There were people who were there manning that area 24 hours a day. They take their work very seriously. We had conversations with several of the people who work in that emergency management area. Their whole job is to pay attention to all potential threats, everything from hurricanes to, for example, the potential of an inbound missile.

There is definitely serious worry and serious mistakes that have been made especially since this went out, not only on cell phones but also to television stations and radio stations where people were immediately terrifying after hearing that this was not a false alarm. That this was not a drill. And it took quite some time about 38 minutes before they got another text to say, hey, hold on a second, this is a false alarm.

So there were a lag in time there. That's what they are looking into. The authorities -- I spoke with the governor David Ige. He said, look, you know, this is obviously human error. There was a shift change. During that shift change, one of the employees pushed the button. That was a mistake. We are looking into trying to figure out how that mistake was made. But, a mistake nonetheless that they hope they will never make again.

We should also mentioned that this comes at a time where, you know, there is an intent highly emotion over what is happening between North Korea and United States in the rhetoric going back between the President and Kim-Jong-un.

But Hawaii before that in many months before that have started looking into trying to upgrade and deal with the fact that they wanted to make sure that their emergency systems were up and running and that people knew what to do in case there might be an attack. And so, they have been playing this for many months. And recently, just sounded off their sirens for the very first time since the cold war.

So as you are hearing, you know, they were looking at this. This is real on their face. Now they are trying to get to the bottom of how exactly this happened. But they have explained it. They do believed it was an employee who pressed the wrong button after a shift change -- Ana.

CABRERA: Sara, I am not sure if you have the answer. You touched on the fact that they started looking into what would need to happen and they started some emergency drills, for example, like sirens. But do you know what plans they do have in place in case of a real life scenario as this happens?

SIDNER: Yes, they do have plans in place. They have been looking at those plans and looking at new technologies to get information like text messaging out to people. Because remember, the cold war was more than, you know, 30 years ago. And so, as we - you know, as we sit here and a lot of people said in judgment saying this is really scary for a lot of people and surely it was. They certainly have been looking at what to do in case there is potentially, you know, an attack. And they have been planning for that and getting the technology put in place. They are the first state in the United States to do that as, you know, we are in sort of a new situation globally and with North Korea blasting off, you know, missiles after missiles, and then testing their nuclear capabilities.

Hawaii decided that, you know, this was a good time to slowly but surely getting all of their systems up and running and their technologies ready. And then also to educate the public. And that's a big component of what they have been doing is trying to educate the public about what they should do, for example, if you are in the impact zone, if their word to be an attack, then for sure, you know, you would not make it.

But they believe more than 95 percent of the population would make it in some kind of nuclear attack coming potentially from North Korea. And in that case, they want to warn people what to do, which is to try to take shelter above basement, try to find a place that has, for example, concrete walls because you can survive the fallout.

And the fallout, by the way, is what killed so many people after Hiroshima. And so, they are trying to educate the public as well. But this, a very scary time for those who got these messages in Hawaii. And many people don't yet know what exactly they are supposed to do there if there was an attack which by the way authorities say there would be about 20 minutes between the time that North Korea would launch a ballistic missile, for example, and the time that could hits Hawaii. And so, you know, it is a very short amount of time for people to take cover -- Ana.

[16:05:22] CABRERA: That is so very information.

Sara Sidner, thank you for the report.

Let's talk with one of the state lawmakers there. Hawaii's state lawmaker Kaniel Saito Ing is joining us on the phone.

Mr. Ing, thank you for joining us. Where were you when you got that initial alert and what was going through your mind?

KANIEL SAITO ING, HAWAII STATE LAWMAKER (on the phone): Thank you for having me. We were having breakfast. It was just myself and my partner and I have one-year-old. And you know, I am in government so I was like there is to sirens. It was really confusing why it is only be just text message. But the text message was seemed so serious and it was all capped. It looked like a Breitbart headline. Like man, this is, you know, we should look into it. I started making calls to the administration, to PACOM. And you know, once I realized it is a mistake, I was just so disappointed.

People are scared. They are angry. They are confused. If you walk around town in Hawaii no matter what islands, it is all what people are talking about right now.

CABRERA: You said, you know, people were scared and now turning to anger in some cases as well as a confusingly how could this happen. What have you learn of the situation in terms of, again, the response and the fact that this could happen, it seems with such a simple mistake like pushing the wrong button?

ING: Well, that's obviously a mistake. And I am glad that the governor, you know, made a statement about it. But I think people are looking forward someone to say, you know, we are sorry first of all. On behalf of the government, on all levels that this could have happened. But it was also the respond that it took 41 minutes for someone to say, hey, this is a mistake.

And in the meantime, I was receiving texts from friends and phone calls. One friend of mine was cuddled in the basement with her toddler. The restaurants has been cleared out (INAUDIBLE) of checks. Even there is a photo of a family on social media that was going in the sewer with their family to try to keep safe. And one of my friends actually receive a phone of goodbye phone calls on her mom in the Philippines. So 41 minutes -


CABRERA: My goodness. So people thought they were going to die.

ING: Exactly. It is unacceptable and we need to get to the bottom of this. CABRERA: What will you do to make sure this doesn't happen again?

And will someone be held accountable?

ING: We hope there would be someone held accountable. We are going to be holding a - I will be calling for the thorough investigation to be brought into the state, (INAUDIBLE) get on in the statehouse. We are going to get to the bottom of how this happened and make sure this never happened again.

The last thing I want is you know the Trump administration, folks who have interest and creating more chaos in the world, using this sort of tactic as a way to exploiting people's fear right now, the way that create more chaos and cause possibly entering more wars. So you know, it is a matter of providing folks with a sense of security, safety and realizing that this was a human mistake and that we can do better.

CABRERA: Hawaii's state lawmaker Kaniela Saito Ing. Thank you very much, sir, for joining us. We are looking at your tweet too to say that patients were being removed from hospitals as you reported out on tweeter. This was not a funny joke in any way. Thank goodness it was a false alarm, though. Not real-life situation. Again, thank you for your time, sir.

Just how did this false alarm got sent to the entire state? And how will investigators figure out exactly what went wrong? More importantly, what needs to happen to make sure it does not happen again? We will talk about it live in the CNN NEWSROOM. Don't go away.


[16:13:02] CABRERA: People in Hawaii are recovering now from heart- dropping panic, a false inbound missile alert went out, ordering people of Hawaii to take shelter because a ballistic missile was headed that way. And no correction for 38 terrifying minutes.

People of Hawaii who got that message believe they were really under attack. Thankfully, it was a false alarm. But the frenzies, a panic, the crushing fear, all very real.

Let's talk it over with Kimberley Dozier, CNN's national security analyst and Juliette Kayyem, former assistant secretary of homeland security under President Obama.

Kimberly, this false alarm puts Hawaii in a tricky position going forward now. Next time it is a real alert. How do you convince people of Hawaii to take it seriously?

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, I'm actually from Hawaii. And I got family there that who has just in touch with couple of family members so said one of them had head phones on, did not see it for an hour. The others said we did quite not know what to think. But the sirens did not go off.

The thing is I had not been aware that they have been going through monthly missile drills. And I think what just happened is that all of America just got a lesson in the new nuclear age that one of the 50 states could have been on the receiving end, in a real way, not just a way that how we have been talking about it that Kim Jong-un might be trying to threaten us.

This made it much more visceral. And I think that shows you why Kim Jong-un is holding on to that nuclear program. He wants us in the sort of state of fear.

CABRERA: Juliette, I want to read a little something from the "New York Times," David Sanger. And I quote.

"Hawaii's false alert should be an early warning sign of what happens when the nuclear age collides with the digital age. Panic receives confirmation, decisions time shrink. In cold war, we had more than a few false alarms, but they were detected before someone hit the panic button."

Juliette, panic proceed confirmation. How does Hawaii fix that going forward so that this does not happen again?

[16:15:00] JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: OK. Because there is three different parts of today. That's why it was a little bit complicated that having been a state homeland security advisor too in state emergency management. We have a sense of at least what's going to proceed.

So first is the mistake itself. How can an alert like that go out with that language, right, not a test without some sort of, you know, backup system and double confirmation or whatever it is going to be. So figure out how the original system was set up that would allow for this. So, you know, that we are going to do.

So the second though is of course, this 40 plus minute delay. That to me is the hardest part to explain. It is the one that I am most unforgiven of. How could it take so long for the state emergency management team to sort of realize the chaos as David Sanger, you know, sort of shorten time from this guy, get out quickly. So what system can we put in place for that to make sure that you correcting a mistake that could lead to real harms.

And then the third is, of course, how do you build confidence back in the system? Because my biggest concern now is not, you know that nuclear bombs are going to drop on Hawaii but a tsunami maybe coming and an alert goes out and it say this is not a test. Some people say, there they go again. So -- they have to figure out a way to build confidence. So there is three different areas here, each have different responses and different essential solutions.

CABRERA: And it needs to be investigated, I suppose.

KAYYEM: Exactly.

CABRERA: I mean, on your second point, that was perhaps the most striking development as this news was unfolding was the fact that we have not heard from state officials until so much later when meantime we have Tulsi Gabbard, one of the congresswomen from the state saying I confirmed with officials this is not real. This is a false alarm. We had Brian Schatz, the senator from Hawaii, tweeting out this is a

false alarm. This is a false alarm we are hearing from other officials with the national level. That this was a false alarm before. So it does not really add up that they were able to confirm it faster. But again, that's where we had the investigation now looking into.

I want to ask you Kimberley about some divergent messages we were hearing from a White House official saying this was a state exercise and there is no indication that this was an exercise, White House not saying when or where the President was briefed. Is this unusual of disconnect?

DOZIER: Well, I think this has been a useful exercise in communication in case something like this happens because it shows false all along the chain. Juliette is right that to build confidence again, I think you are going to have to not only do an investigation, but to map it out to the people of Hawaii and wider across the state saying here is what happened and how we will keep it from happening again.

This also goes to White House officials who will make sure that the next time they give out information like this, it is not incorrect because you begin to have a lack of confidence all the way along the chain. Yes, first reports are often wrong, but it got - it took too long for this first report to be corrected and we had false information or imprecise information all along the way.

CABRERA: Juliette, do you think our adversaries like North Korea's Kim Jong-un are likely watching this response time and taking notes?

KAYYEM: Yes, our adversaries are certainly are and so are our allies. So I want to make sure I feel like it is my responsibility. There is nothing in the threat level that's changed because of this. This obviously is scary in particular to people in Hawaii. But you know, this was a mistake.

So what our allies are probably looking at is having a confidence, that will they have confidence of our alert system. Because all of these things are tied in through either emergency management programming or international emergency measures. But remember, Hawaii is so aligned with pacific and the pacific islands. So you want to build confidence in our alert system so that other nations are responding in kind.

And that of course, with our adversaries, just knowing that these mistakes can happen sort of undermines -- sort of a show of strengths. This was a mistake. I am kind of forgiving the mistake. I am not forgiving of this 40-plus minutes that took us to sort of acknowledge that we were potentially heading down a very scary path. So a lot to learn. And that's the best we can do out of something like this.

CABRERA: But Juliette, do you think they are gaining any Intel how our defense systems works?

KAYYEM: Well, actually, it may be good intel for the United States because what happened was the state emergency management debate it is a mistake. They don't clarify it. And guess who steps in? The military, NORAD, Pacific Command and others start making public alerts. This is false. This is false. So in some way, the system actually had to serve backup redundancy which actually quite good that you had the feds, the military, you know, knowing better than Hawaii certainly would whether this was in or not. And so, in some ways, I actually think it maybe counter intuitive that we somewhat show that system had capacity to correct themselves and particular the military which for is should be the biggest threat to our enemies. I know that's counter intuitive but that's how - that's my takeaway there.

[16:20:22] CABRERA: Juliet and Kim Dozier, thank you ladies.

Stay with us. Much more on this developing breaking news story, how the White House is responding straight ahead. We will take you live to West Palm Beach where the President is spending his weekend, next.



[16:25:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My friend just wake me up and say, hey, let's go. There is a phone call in Hawaii. I didn't felt it is serious but, you know, I just. I run in. We went in to this utter place (INAUDIBLE). That wasn't before just running on the street. Yes, that's great. It was not funny at all. The guy had one job, right, and he messed up. So that's crazy.


CABRERA: Continuing with our breaking news coverage. A very scary half hour in Hawaii this morning. A statewide emergency message went out saying ballistic missile were on the way. They ordered people to take immediate shelter. Unfortunately, it also said this is not a drill but it was an accident in fact for nearly 40 minutes of the people of Hawaii who got the initial message and every reason to believe that it was real and that they were under attack.

Take a look at this. This was a highway side in Honolulu showing a frightening correction.

So how is the White House now responding to all of this?

Well, CNN Boris Sanchez is traveling with the President in West Palm Beach where the President is spending the weekend.

Boris, what do we know about how the President learned of this alert and what is he saying now?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Ana. We are still actually working to get clarity on specifically when the President was told about this alarm and when he was told that it was a false alarm. We actually got words from the White House that the President was at his golf course here at West Palm Beach when the alert first went out. The White House then put out a very concise statement and here it is.

Quote "the President have been briefed on the state of Hawaii's emergency management exercise. This was purely a state exercise."

The question that we have for the White House now are many. First off, not only when did the President find out but what specifically he was doing? Who is he with when this alert was put out? And then you can imagine that we are getting social media alerts about this message that we sent in Hawaii then perhaps some of our allies and partners in the pacific also got words of this alert whether in South Korea and Japan or China. So did they contract the leadership here in the United States or did the White House reached out to them? What was that communication like?

Right now the White House is short on answers to our questions. But frankly, Ana, this is a reminder that even though the President this week speculated about a possible good relationship with Kim Jong-un and he praised direct talks that are ongoing between North and South Korea, this is a reminder that the nuclear threat and the danger of war with North Korea is at our doorsteps, Ana.

CABRERA: Boris, the White House initially said that this was a state's exercise. Are they acknowledging that that explanation is different than the state of Hawaii's?

SANCHEZ: Not yet, Ana. We have reached out to them for answers and clarity on that, but we do have to hear back.

CABRERA: All right. Boris Sanchez, traveling with the President in West Palm Beach, Florida. Thanks.

This false alert as to what has been a truly chaotic 48 hours for the Trump administration. It began on Thursday with President Trump making racist comments during a bipartisan meeting on immigration. During that meeting, President Trump slurred immigrants from s-hole countries referring to Africa. He also asked why the U.S. needs more immigrants from Haiti.

The President denied using that specific language. But two lawmakers including a Democrat and a Republican who were in that room confirmed he made the vulgar remarks. And other four other lawmakers who are there have not denied that. Today, a group representing every African country is demanding a retraction and an apology.

Meanwhile, as this plays out, President Trump has rejected a bipartisan deal not immigration and he is now blaming Democrats. He has also cancelled an upcoming trip to London which he is blaming former President Obama. He has signed a Martin Luther King Jr. proclamation ahead of Monday's holiday.

And the President also extended the Iran nuclear deal with conditions. He warned this will be the last time he will give this agreement more time unless changes are made.

And finally, Trump said he has a quote "very good relationships with North Korea leader Kim Jong-un." He won't say if he already talked with him. And all of this in the last 48 hours.

Joining us now, CNN political commentator Bakari Sellers. He is a former Democratic legislator from South Carolina. And CNN political commentator John Phillips. He supports the President.

John, do you think the President's remarks are defensible?


CABRERA: Do you believe the President's remarks about s-hole countries about Haitians not needing to be here and to get them out on this immigration reform deal that was being worked out on? Are those remarks defensible?

PHILLIPS: Well, I think that they were certainly salty. They were certainly vulgar. The President certainly has shown an affinity to use that type of language. If you go back to the campaign, some of his campaign rallies were like Red Fox albums. But the overall policy point that he was making is very consistent with what he has been saying for quite some time which is that we shouldn't give preferential treatment to the hard black cases. We shouldn't give preferential treatment to people who come here from the diversity lottery. Rather, we should give preferential treatment to people who are coming here with marketable skills, people with an ability to assimilate to American culture.

And I think he has a point. It is a really sad day when you got doctors from India or IT people from Britain who are kept out but the Tsarnaev family is let in.

[16:30:15] CABRERA: John, why not just say then that you actually be able to decide who comes in to the country? Why insult everyone who comes from what the President considers an s-hole country.

PHILLIPS: Well, that is the rule. That's the policy. An immigration policy is supposed to benefit the country, not the immigrants. Obviously, you do what you can to alleviate suffering when you have a natural disaster.

CABRERA: So my point here, John, is words matter. Words matter how you talk about these people mattered.

PHILLIPS: Yes, I know. Look, I mean, I wouldn't say it. It was certainly something that was said in private that was leaked. There is some dispute as to what exactly was said and the context upon which it was said. You know, I wish some certain times that he would reframe from that sort of language. But he is a 71-year-old guy. This is the way he is. He is not changing. It is all baked into the cake.

CABRERA: Bakari, what's going into your mind?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: No. I think John is right. I think he is a 71-year-old guy who has been racist a long time. And we cannot expect him to not be racist all of a sudden because he is President of the United States. The fact is he compared all the African countries and the country of Haiti to Norway. All of these countries which are majority African-Americans to a country that literally white. We know that. This is a propensity that Donald Trump has had since before he began

running for President, but dates long back into his history when he was running condominiums and being sued for discriminatory practices or running casinos and being sued for discriminatory practices or the central park pub. The list goes on and on and on. And so I don't know why we expect him to change at all.

The problem that we have is that if John and I want to have an intellectual debate over whether or not diversity matters or what our immigrations system should looked like, we can have that. But to sit here and say somehow that we should -- make sure that it is a married base. I mean, the fact of the matter is Melania Trump wouldn't even qualified under that theory. I mean, we have to make sure that we are bringing people in. Some people will work with their hands. Some people will be doctors and lawyers. But diversities does matter. And we can have that discussion without insulting half of the world.

CABRERA: John, it does seem to be an entirely avoidable controversy. Does the President do any damage to himself than any of his opponents?

PHILLIPS: Well, look. The President always says whatever is on his mind. I would add in this particular case, the slur was not directed at the immigrants. The slur was directed at the governments and the country. If you look at the policy that is surrounding the hard black cases, when many of these people from the countries that were referenced to come here, it is supposed to be temporary. They are supposed to come here until the country is leaned up from the hurricane or the earthquake or whatever and then they go back.

But those government don't have the ability to rebuild. They don't have the ability to get to a point where they can go back so these people stay here for a very long time. That's a reality and that's one of the realities that he acknowledged and it was not directed at the immigrant. It was directed at those country and those governments.

CABRERA: Speaker Ryan yesterday -- let me just get to another point, thought. Because we have not heard a lot of Republicans come out with the kind of outrage we heard after Charlottesville, for example.

Bakari, why do you think that is?

SELLERS: Because they are gutless.

I mean, the fact is if you had to respond and I think we should, I mean, the problem that we are having in this country is good people. I mean, you saw Robert Jeffers come on and kind of cloaked this or (INAUDIBLE) in Christianity, I mean, we have good people who refused to say anything publicly.

I mean, I'm from South Carolina. Lindsey Graham is my senator and my friend. And I know what he says. He said, during that private meeting, but he will not stand up publicly against this insensitivity in this racism that is Donald Trump,

I mean, I understand Mia Love. I understand Tim Scott. I understand all of these individuals who have done that. But when will the United States senators, white United States senators, white Republican United States senators show some type of fortitude and simply say this is not the direction that the country needs to go in. Until that happens, then none of this will change. Donald Trump is racist, period. He has been that way. Our country does you not have to accept that though.

CABRERA: Republican senator Chuck Grassley went home. And it turned out he got an ear full from constituents. Keep in mind, his district went 65 percent for President Trump. The Des Moines Register was that one of his town hall meetings. And here are the sampling of what he heard from the Des Moines Register.

Are you seriously not personally concerned about his fitness to serve, if not, why not? Because I am very concerned. That was Mary Michaels, a retired, 67-year-old nurse apparently from nearby Ft. Smith.

Last Grassley, it is not that we hate Trump, replied Pat Grassley, 67, a home teacher from Kim Vulton (ph) who brought her two children to the meeting at the field trip. We are recognizing braver that's not normal. We are not psychiatrists but we can see abnormal behavior when we see it.

Now Republicans might say that most of these people are Democrats and elected officials. But John, for Grassley to be hearing that, that has got to take a hit of the ego. And to think that the leaders of t of the Republican Party is taking shots at these town halls. What did you think about that?

[16:35:33] PHILLIPS: Well, I think that random public citizen at the town hall meeting actually had their training in pediatrics. So I don't think they were psychiatrists. But this is a guy who, look, you love him or you hate him. He has been very consistent. The Donald Trump that you see now in the White House is the same Donald Trump that was a candidate for office. He was the same Donald Trump who was on "the Apprentice." He was the same Donald Trump who was a real estate developer. And in the New York tabloids, if you did not like him before, you don't like him now. They are saying anything and everything that they can that they think will damage him and his credibility. And I just don't think that this thing has any legs to it at all.

CABRERA: Bakari, does what we have seen this week affects the immigration debate and more importantly, the deal in immigration deals specifically for the DREAMERs?

SELLERS: I think it does. I mean the simple fact is if you want to talk inside politics, it takes 60 votes to actually get to an immigration deal. And we need relief for our DACA citizens, 800,000 of them need to make sure that they don't have to live in fear. That there is some pathway to citizenship. And I do think that it royally endangers anything that we want to look at in terms of comprehensive immigration reform.

To something that John said, it is very true. Donald Trump has been the exact same person this entire time. But I do think that there are some elements of his base which are eroding. And that is where he is going to have trouble selling immigration bill or anything else.

CABRERA: Bakari Sellers and John Phillips, thank you both for joining us. Thanks for the passion and the very reasonable discussion. I appreciate that as well.

Now the President's incendiary comments come well congressional leaders are trying to hammer out this deal on DACA. The cheap architect of DACA, former homeland security secretary Janet Napolitano spoke with me about DACA immigrants and what she thinks about building a border wall.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As I like to say, show me a 10 foot wall, I will show you a 12-foot ladder.


CABRERA: More thoughts of her ahead in the CNN NEWSROOM. Don't go away.


[16:41:39] CABRERA: The President's most recent tweet today is about DACA. He tweeted the Democrats are all talks and no action. They are doing nothing to fix DACA. Great opportunity missed. Too bad.

Well, the battle for the faith of almost 700,000 undocumented young people living in the United States, the so-called DREAMERs continues in Congress, but there was one win this week. A judge temporary stopped the repeal of DACA. His ruling was in response to a lawsuit brought by former department of homeland security Janet Napolitano, former secretary. She sat down with us for her first television interview since that ruling came down. And I know this interview takes prior to Trump's vulgar, derogatory comments about immigrants.


CABRERA: Let's start with the legal battle to keep DACA alive. In short, you sued this administration over repealing DACA and a judge ruled in favor - in your favor meaning DACA can't automatically ends on March 5th. So does this new ruling make a DACA deal less urgent?

JANET NAPOLITANO, FORMER SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: No. I still think that it is urgent for Congress to act. The ruling is temporary in nature. It is a preliminary injunction. It does allow those who are currently in DACA or who rolled off since September 5th to reenroll which is a good thing. And that's the protection for the 800,000 or so DREAMERs who is are already in the program. But it doesn't allow new DREAMERs to enroll in the program which is really unfortunate. And by its nature, it is a temporary ruling.

CABRERA: You have been called the architect of DACA dating back to 2012. The Trump administration argues they will win the legal battle because they say DACA was quote, "unlawful for convention of Congress to begin with." Would it be better for DREAMERs if there was an actual law protecting them versus - depending on an executive action? Why keep fighting for DACA in that regard?

NAPOLITANO: When the legislative branch does not act its appropriate for the judicial branch to act. And you know, when was created DACA, it was created under my (INAUDIBLE) when I was secretary of homeland security, we were careful on how we created DACA. And it does comply with the law and that's what the judge out here found. And that's why he found against the administration because their actions was premise on the notion that DACA itself was an illegal act and it was not.

CABRERA: But, it has not made its way all the courts system because there had been multiple legal challenges we know to DACA which was essential put on hold when the Trump administration got into power. And so it did not go all the way up to the Supreme Court. It could eventually make it there and ultimately it is unknown, what will happen and we know DACA did not survive after it went into the legal system.

When you introduced it, did you anticipate DACA leading into this coming into ahead and a fight in this way?

NAPOLITANO: No. No one could anticipate that it would lead to a fight in this way. But we are here now. And I think it is incumbent on what Congress to do what Congress is elected to do which is to pass laws. But in the interim, DACA is a legal program and it was illegally rescinded by the administration.

[16:45:05] CABRERA: Now, there was some optimism, let's talk about the potential deal because the President held his bipartisan meetings this week. Since then, the President have been inconsistent of what has to be in the deal for him to sign it. Let's listen.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think my decisions are going to be with what the people in this room come up with. If they come to me with things that I'm not in love with, I'm going to do it because I respect them.

We need the world for security. We need the world for safety. We need the world for stopping the drugs from pouring in. But any solution has to include the wall. Because without the wall, all this would not work.

CABRERA: Why isn't the wall effective?

NAPOLITANO: You know, as I would like to say, show me a ten-foot wall, I will show you a twelve-foot ladder. The border will either be over, you know, with ladders or tunnels, that's not the way the border works. And the way that border works is you need technology, you need manpower along the border. And that kind of strategy is what has led us and began in the Obama administration. It is continued under the current administration to record low illegal crossings. So adding a wall does nothing. It is a huge expense. And it is a detraction from what actually will work. CABRERA: I know that this is an issue that you are extremely

passionate about, given you laying the ground works of what we are seeing now during your administration as ahead of the department of homeland security.

California now where you call home where you lead this University of California system, California is home to the most DACA recipients in any single state. And according to your website, there are an estimated 4,000 undocumented students as part of the UC system. Many of whom are protected under DACA.

As President of the system, how will doing away with DACA impact your students and campuses? What will it mean for their life?

NAPOLITANO: You know, it is really a tragedy. These young people have been raised in the United States. They really only know the United States as home. They done everything we have asked of them in terms of getting their education, they gotten admission in the University of California which is a very competitive system. They are very talented. And they need DACA a, for protection from deportation and also for that very important authority to work while they go to school.


CABRERA: Our thanks to former DHS secretary Napolitano.

Still ahead, back to our breaking news, the terrifying half hour in Hawaii this morning, a statewide message went out saying a ballistic missile was on the way, but this was a false alarm. We will take you there live coming up.

Plus, from Cecil the lion to (INAUDIBLE) gorilla, the new CNN film "Trophy" takes an inside look at controversial big game hunt. The Dangerous animals can posed to the publics, a preview, next.


[16:52:28] CABRERA: It is an idea of fraud with emotions and controversies, sacrificing some animals to hunting to fund the conservation of endangered species as a whole. Now that is the subject explored in a new CNN original film called "Trophy."

Phillip Glass is one of the big game hunters featured in the film. And he explains how he sees hunting as a gift from God. Watch.


PHILLIP GLASS, HUNTER/SHEEP RANCHER: You know the bible says he gave man the menu (ph) in overall battles. And that the menu (ph) comes with responsibilities but it also remains as the right to use. And so I think that's a big part of it. It is a big part of appreciating God's creation. And some people think how can you go out and shoot God's creation. That's a totally false statement, false point of view. God said we have menu (ph) over animals. That's means we can do what we choose with them. (END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: And Phillip Glass is joining me now.

Phillip, I probably don't have to tell you just how divisive this issue can be. We were chatting. You said you didn't even expected to turn into what it ended up when you got into this. Explain why you agree to be filmed.

GLASS: The filmmaker said got him in touched with some people I used to be hunting with in Africa. And I just found out that I was a passionate hunter. And somebody who is outspoken about conservation and they asked to go along with me. And so I started to take a risk. I took a risk and allowed them to follow me and film me for two years.

CABRERA: Hunting and conservations, a lot of people would it does not go together especially when you are talking about these big game species, some which are on their way to extinction. What do you tell people who say that hunting is big game animals, I know on this film you hunt elephants, you hunt lions. They say it is barbaric that this is unnecessary slaughtering of an endangered species.

GLASS: Well, they have the right to their opinions. But they are wrong as they think these animals' populations are decreasing. All the animals we hunt are a stable population or increasing.

The lions in Zimbabwe, the population is increasing. The elephant within (INAUDIBLE), their population is on the record level. So yes, hunting and conservation do go together. And they do work together. And the facts on the ground prove it.

CABRERA: How does it work into conservations?

GLASS: Giving animals value is what hunting thus commercial hunting gives animal values. Trophy hunting gives animals value. And since they have value, people are willing to raise them or tolerate them for whatever the case maybe. And the numbers are stable or increasing due to that money that comes into the system.

CABRERA: So money coming into the system, I guess, your philosophy that it trickles down in to this communities and --?

[16:55:03] GLASS: It does not trickle down. It goes immediately into the communities.

In fact, Chris, the anti-pouch (ph) that's featured in the film. I was sitting here in New York City being interviewed and he said that, on camera, fully 50 percent of my lands pay (ph) went to him and the community for their anti-poaching efforts.

CABRERA: When you talk about hunting being somewhat a religious or spiritual experience, did you have any regrets?

GLASS: Certainly, there is a deep respect and deep reverence for that animal for me personally when I hunt. I don't think it is regret. I think it is just a deep respect and a deep reverence for that animal. And that is something that is hard to explain to people. I certainly understand that.

CABRERA: Phillip Glass, thank you for sharing your perspective with us. We look forward to the film.

And again, that's tomorrow night at 9:00 eastern, it is called "Trophy" right here on CNN.

We are back in a moment.