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PRIMETIME JUSTICE WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Nikolas Cruz Passion to be a Killer; Alarming Signals Posted on Social Media. Aired 6-6:30p ET

Aired February 15, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

[18:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My god!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hear gunshots. We just got a code red notification. ASAP there are gunshots. Hell, someone died. Come now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just heard gunshots.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A white male. Burgundy shirt. Black hat, long pants or shorts. He mixed in with the students westbound.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Terrifying moments in this Florida high school. A gunman brandishing an AR-15 semi-automatic weapon, opening fire killing at

least 17.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seventeen counts of premeditated murder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I see students on the ground, blood everywhere.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They thought it was a joke and then the gunshots came about.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I heard screaming.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is just absolutely pure evil.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is Crime and Justice.

And tonight it`s getting dark in Parkland, Florida, especially at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School where some of the bodies are still lying dead

inside amidst blood and shell casings and backpacks and valentines.

Crime scene technicians are flat out and they still can`t process it all fast enough. And the darker it gets, the darker we feel, especially as we

learn new specifics about what the killer did before, during, and after the massacre of 17 students and teachers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT ISRAEL, SHERIFF, BROWARD COUNTY: An Uber car dropped off the suspect at 20.19 yesterday, 2.19 at Stoneman Douglas High School. The suspect

entered the east stairwell, that`s building 12, with a rifle inside a black, soft case.

At 20 -- at 2.21 hours and 33 seconds, the suspect readied his rifle and began shooting into rooms 1215, 1216, 1214. He went back to 1216, back to

1215 and then to 1213.

The suspect -- the suspect then took the west stairwell to the second floor and shot one victim in room 1234 -- 1234 on the second floor.

The suspect then took the east stairwell, to the third floor. He dropped his rifle and backpack, ran down the stairs. He exited building 12 and ran

towards the tennis courts and then took a southbound turn on foot.

The suspect crossed fields and ran west along with others who were playing and try to mix in with the group that were running away fearing for their

lives.

The suspect arrived at the Wal-Mart store before, he bought a drink at the subway and then left the Wal-Mart on foot. The suspect went to McDonald`s.

Sat down for a short period of time. This was at 3.01 p.m., and he left on foot.

At 3.41 p.m., 40 minutes after he departed from the McDonald`s, the suspect was detained at 4700 Wyndham Lakes drive in Coral Springs, by an officer

from the Coconut Creek Police Department. He was taken into custody without incident.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The details that we`re learning tonight range from sickening to surreal. Like the officer who spotted the suspect walking on the sidewalk

after stopping by McDonald`s and then thought could this be that kid? Could this be the killer?

The man now representing him in court, a local father who ended up breaking down in front of the cameras trying to defend that 19-year-old suspect,

ultimately having to turn away.

At the same time, his colleague in court looks at the defendant and throws a supportive arm around whom everyone feels is a monster.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GORDON WEEKES, EXECUTIVE CHIEF ASSISTANT PUBLIC DEFENDER: This is a loss for the community. A tragic loss of 17 children. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[18:05:04] BANFIELD: And that shows you, Gordon Weekes, the public defender the situation he`s in with his colleague Melissa McNeil. We`re going to

learn a lot more about them and their job ahead.

Right now I want to go to HLN`s Mike Galanos. He is live tonight in Parkland, Florida where a vigil is just now getting underway. And I think I

can see what is sure to be tens, hundreds or maybe even thousands of people who will join you in that location, Mike.

MIKE GALANOS, ANCHOR, HLN: Yes. If I look straight behind our cameraman Ben here, I can literally see a sea of people, thousands here and the emotions

have been raw as we`ve attended now, this is our third vigil.

Just people want to be together and process all of this. Behind me there are 17 angels on the stage representing one for each of the lives lost in

all of this. They`re here for the victims.

We`re also finding out more about the suspect as you alluded to. Nikolas Cruz, the 19-year-old in court today wearing that red jump suit, facing 17

counts of premeditated first-degree murder.

You`d mentioned kind of a challenge now from some of his attorneys. Public defender Melissa McNeill saying he is remorseful, mournful, but fully aware

of what`s going on. That will play key in this.

Also this, Ashleigh, the arrest affidavit tells us confirming he confessed to the shooting. This is a post-Miranda statement that he confessed. Also

we`re getting more details about how he had loaded magazines in a backpack that he concealed in this Uber ride and also the smoke grenades that you

were one of the first to fair it out in that interview with Tashany Thomas (Ph) as she was telling the story and seeing smoke.

And I think you include that it wasn`t just gunfire, but it was smoke grenades. All part of this sinister plot. One other thing is I heard the

timeline going on that he was supposed to go to school. Talking about Nikolas Cruz yesterday. He was trying to get his GED but he said no, I`m

not going to school. I don`t go to school on Valentine`s Day. We know he had much more sinister plans for the day.

BANFIELD: You know, that interview with Tashany (Ph), she also said that she could have sworn. He was wearing a ballistics vest and we have not had

confirmation of that, but we have had confirmation that he had some kind of a vest, and that may have been where he was storing all of those extra

magazines that ultimately he doffed, and he threw in a stairwell along with the AR-15 according to the allegations.

And made that incredible exit and was able to actually go to a subway and buy a drink at the neighboring Wal-Mart, and then to a McDonald`s before

ultimately this scene on your screen played out.

The ultimate arrest after an officer cruising the neighborhood saw that burgundy colored shirt and wondered could this be him and arrested him

without incident.

I want to play, if I can right now, Mike, something from the initial court appearance today, I mean, you could have heard a pin drop as he was walked

in flanked by two public defenders. Whether they will continue throughout the entire case remains to be seen.

Oftentimes that can change right after an initial appearance, but those two public defenders, on the right, Melissa McNeill and on the left, you know,

another defender who joined Gordon Weekes who you saw earlier.

But I want you to keep your eye as well Melissa McNeill and listen as the affidavit details are actually read in court. And now he knows officially

what he is facing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The state is relying on the sworn affidavit that the court has been provided as to the 17 counts of first-degree murder and the

contents of the sworn affidavit by detectives citing the actions of the defendant in going to the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School on February

14th, 2018 with a premeditated design in that he went loaded with an AR-15 rifle.

He had additional ammunition with him during and shot 17 individuals who later died as a result of the gunshot wounds and then he fled the scene. So

the state is seeking a no bond hold.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your honor, the defense has no arguments. At this time we will defer until further court proceedings. We formally invoke Mr.

Cruz`s right to remain silent and that notification relates to any law enforcement agencies that are involved in this case both at a state and a

federal level.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: It should be noted, Mike and we`re going to talk about this later that it wasn`t lost on anyone that she put her arm around her client, that

is not unusual but this is such an unusual story, that it made a few people`s spine chill.

But then when she spoke with reporters later that attorney said she had to have the same conversations with her children before she went them off to

school in that county this morning and that it was extremely uncomfortable because she came to meet with that client right afterwards.

[18:09:55] And to that end, as kids were going to school today, yet again, there were lockdowns, there were threats and the sheriff actually even had

to -- had to address it. What happened?

GALANOS: Well, basically talking about copycat threats and authorities immediately, Ashleigh, letting everybody know we are not taking these on as

pranks. We are fully investigating these. Let`s listen to the sheriff talk a little bit about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ISRAEL: Sadly, there have been copycat threats made today in other schools. We will respond to every threat, every threat we receive we will not

classify it as a copycat or a prank call. We will respond in full and investigate it.

Any call that is made fictitiously, any fake call, any call that`s made to take out resources at a time like this and place them in places where we

don`t need to be, we will do the full power of the sheriff`s office will investigate this and charge anyone accordingly with the maximum charge we

possibly could for doing something so horrific. So pathetic.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GALANOS: And there you go, Ashleigh. And I tell you this wherever you have gone today here in Parkland, everybody in law enforcement is so invested,

so ultra-focused that they are not going to take any chances. Fully investigating those copycats for sure. Ashleigh, back to you.

BANFIELD: All right. Mike, stand by. I will come back to you periodically throughout the next couple of hours to get updates especially as to how

everybody a that vigil is doing and what they are saying tonight.

I want to go now, if I can, to Ann Houschild. She is a student at Marjory Stoneman Douglas and she was at the school when Nikolas Cruz allegedly open

fire, allegedly murdering in cold blood 17 students. Ann, how are you today? Are you -- are you at the vigil as well and are you OK?

ANN HOUSCHILD, FLORIDA SHOOTING SURVIVOR: Yes, I am OK, thank you.

BANFIELD: Can I ask you if it isn`t too difficult for to you recount what you saw. Because it`s very different than what many of your fellow students

at that high school saw.

HOUSCHILD: Yes. I was on the third floor of the freshman building and we were in lockdown in my class. I remember people thought it was a drill so

we were calm and sometimes even laughing about some jokes and then I saw a group chat that I had of the Brazilians and they said that it was real that

I should take care because he wasn`t (Inaudible) And then I just heard shots and a lot of shots. And he tried...

BANFIELD: I think we`ve lost our connection. I think it`s a tricky connection that we have at that vigil. Ann, can you still hear me? We lost

you for a moment. If I can get you to pick up at the point where the police came in to rescue you after your teacher had saved your life by lining you

up and keeping you in the classroom. Tell me what you saw as you were led out of your classroom and out of the school.

HOUSCHILD: Well, we had our hands in our head but I saw unfortunately, the body of the teacher. I saw his complete body and where he was shot. And I

saw five other bodies of students. We couldn`t see their faces, but there was a lot of blood and it was dirty the floor, and the one thing that

really got me, there were a lot of roses, too. Mixed with the blood. It wasn`t a good image to see.

BANFIELD: Of course it was Valentine`s Day so I`m sure that many of the students had been exchanging those roses that you saw and had hopefully,

you know, planned to take them home.

Ann, I hope you are going to be OK. You know, we are so thoughtful and mindful of what you are going through and the heroics and just being able

to get out of there and tell your story. I hope for you, Ann, for your community and your friends and your family that you will heal after this.

Thank you, Ann.

HOUSCHILD: Thank you.

BANFIELD: We are going to have more tonight on the so obvious now red flags that surrounded this gunman including a trail that he left behind on social

media.

Did the FBI do enough when actually given a formal warning about the extreme posts coming from that suspect? Why couldn`t they find him? Why

couldn`t they do something? We are going to dig into that, next.

[18:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROB LASKY, FBI IN CHARGE, MIAMI: In 2017, the FBI received information about a comment made on a YouTube channel. The comment simply said "I`m

going to be a professional school shooter."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw it come through my personal notifications to the studio so I saw a screen shot it so I could share it with the FBI.

[18:20:03] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I want to shoot people with my AR-15, I want to die fighting, killing bleep ton of people. I`m going to kill law

enforcement one day. They go after the good people."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve already begin -- began to dissect his web sites and the things at the social media that he was on. And some of the things

have come to mind are very, very disturbing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: And when it comes to disturbing, perhaps what we have just now uncovered, Mike just add to that or at least be the topper on it, although

it seems that each thing we find out is worse. We`ve now discovered a second Instagram account of Nikolas Cruz. And I`ve got some of the

information and the photos from it.

On the photographs of the Instagram at Nikolas Cruz Makarov, these are the pictures. He is not only showing off guns and weapons. A collection of

firearms apparently on a bed, also a scope looking out through a window. It`s one of the photographs.

And the profile picture will be very disturbing to some and extremely disturbing to others. The profile picture is actually what appears to be

Nikolas Cruz with a mask around his face and a make America great again hat. I`m not sure if we have that loaded in. We`re literally just getting

this and delivering it to you as we`re getting it.

That appears like it might be target, but obviously another Instagram account showing these things. Do we have the profile picture that we can

show. I think we`re just -- we`re just digging it out. This is the information that`s come to us. But when we do get that picture, we`ll show

it to you.

This is a second Instagram picture of Nikolas Cruz and again, the Instagram user was Nikolas Cruz Makarov. Once again, with the correct spelling of his

name. This apparently has a few postings as well. One saying that he got hit by a car and that posted about seven months ago.

We`ll continue to watch that and as I get more information on that, I`ll actually pass it on to you ASAP and especially the profile picture.

I think people who support Donald Trump will be very disturbed to see that he is wearing that hat. I think that people who are up in arms right now,

pardon the pun about gun control, will probably seize on that photograph as well.

The comments section though, that comes underneath a lot of social media and YouTube videos, certainly it can be an evil place. Some of the most

revolting things reside in those comments. But when somebody writes I`m going to be a professional school shooter, that should make you stand up.

And it`s exactly what Ben Bennight thought. Because this September, that happened to him. A commenter said that on one of his videos. And he took it

right to the FBI. But the FBI was not able to confirm the person who posted the comment. Even though the person who posted the comment was Nikolas

Cruz.

The name, Nikolas Cruz with the spelling of this Nikolas Cruz. That FBI officer we are told didn`t tell the local law enforcement agencies about

that reported threat. And then there is this.

A law enforcement source tell CNN that they are aware of a report from the anti-defamation league that Cruz was connected to a white supremacist group

but it`s unknown if the accused shooter just identified with that group or was actually tied to that group.

CNN has not been able to individually confirm that Nikolas Cruz was a member of any particular group.

With me now, retired law enforcement officer and CEO of Network Security Group, John Lucich. Also with me, retired FBI special agent, Bobby Chacon.

So, Booby, I`m going to go to you first, if I can about this. The whole notion that in September, just this last September, that young man Ben

Bennight went to the FBI and did what we are all being asked to do. Ever since 9/11 we`re being asked to do this, if you see something, say

something.

That`s how we can fight terror. That`s how we can fight evil and how we can fight violence. And it didn`t work. Can you help me understand why?

BOBBY CHACON, RETIRED FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Well, immediately two FBI agents came to his office to interview him. They obviously took it seriously. They

showed up at his office the very next day and interviewed him, they took all the information they could which obviously in this case was not much

because YouTube they`re taking the comment down.

Now the next step I would wonder and I don`t know the answer to this is whether they tried to get the information from YouTube regarding how he got

a profile on YouTube. Because a lot of times you can`t leave a comment unless you have a profile.

So I don`t know the answer to that. I know that they did not (AUDIO GAP) because before yesterday that name meant nothing to anybody. It wasn`t

wanted -- he wasn`t a wanted fugitive, he had no arrest record. So, you know, when they ran him through the databases apparently, they got no hit.

He was not on a watch list or anything like that.

[18:25:01] However, there was a mountain of information sitting in Broward County in that school district. Those two superintendents knew, the

students knew, and the students knew that this guy was a bad news and he was trouble enough that they wanted him out of that school and they e-

mailed the teachers not to let him back in if he had a backpack with him.

BANFIELD: So, can I...

(CROSSTALK)

CHACON: So the connection was that there was a mountain of evidence there.

BANFIELD: Yes. And look, the FBI has a hell of a lot more at their fingertips than I do or the staff that works on this show, but with a

simple name and a little bit of access to Twitter, my staff knew who this guy was before we could ever put it on TV. And that didn`t take a lot of

resources.

By the way, we`ve not got that profile picture. This is Nikolas Cruz`s Instagram account, his second Instagram account that we discovered with the

scarf over his face. I`m presuming that that`s him. I don`t think can obviously definitively say so unless he himself confirms it`s him. But it`s

his account and he is wearing the make America great again hat as his profile picture.

So back to my point, Booby, and that is this. If we who don`t have the power of subpoena here at HLN and CNN could find Nikolas Cruz like that

with the spelling of his name, then why couldn`t the FBI find Nikolas Cruz like that because he was still at the time living with his mom. She had not

died yet.

CHACON: Yes. I can`t answer that and I`m sure the FBI is looking into why that was missed or if anything was missed. We have to look at whether or

not they were investigating any crimes that have been committed. Because that simple line that he wants to be a professional shooter or professional

school shooter, you know, they may have gone to the prosecutor.

Or you may, you know, if you draw this out and you knock on someone`s door and say did you make this comment on this video and he goes yes, I did. I

was mad at the time and I was only kidding I was being sarcastic. You know, that in and of itself, that comment in and of itself does not give you the

right, there is no probable cause to go in and arrest that person.

Now what they could have done was tie it to all this other information that Broward County had if they had sent it to Miami, if they would have known

to send it to Miami.

So I`m sure the FBI is reviewing the steps that they took, you know, maybe something was missed, why they missed and how they missed it. And you know,

we always go through lessons learned on things like this.

But remember, this is one thread of, you know, of an obscure comment made when we also already know there is a mountain of information sitting in

Broward County and why no one from the school or no one from that district highlighted this person to law enforcement, local law enforcement and why

nothing was done to either monitor him or take him into custody on a psychiatric hold or something like that. That`s a whole another

conversation that needs to happen.

BANFIELD: Well, you know, the pictures we are seeing now of Nikolas Cruz being escorted in that hospital gown by authorities, if he looks somewhat

uncomfortable, I think he is probably wearing leg shackles. It looks as though he was being leg shackled at the time of the arrest.

But also we have learned as well that he has been on suicide watch during his incarceration for the last 24 to 26 hours.

John Lucich, I just want to follow-up on this whole notion that, look, I get it. Hindsight is 20-20.

JOHN LUCICH, CEO, NETWORK SECURITY GROUP: Yes.

BANFIELD: And it`s easy to play arm chair quarterback.

LUCICH: Yes.

BANFIELD: But like I said with the name N-i-k-o-l-a-s, Nikolas. It`s not John Smith. It`s a little easier when you got someone with this unique

spelling. And if we could find accounts with very disturbing pictures and that stems from the genesis of that comment, "I want to be a professional

school shooter," it would seem to me at the very least if the FBI is strapped, they call the locals, but they didn`t.

LUCICH: Like. I`d like to see a greater sharing between everybody. The school didn`t notify the locals, the FBI didn`t notify the locals. If this

information had been brought together and the FBI would have said the school knew about it. But, you know, I saw the guy, I believe he was on one

of the shows with the superintendent when he was first asked who said we don`t know about this guy. There`s no other, you know, and it turned out to

be...

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Well, he knew that he`d been expelled. At least we knew that.

LUCICH: Right. But there are so many issues that came back from somebody.

BANFIELD: It`s so frustrating.

LUCICH: Yes, but you know, we`re talking about the FBI which is a preeminent, you know, law enforcement agency in the world. There`s no doubt

about it. And they literally probably get millions of tips. Number one, it didn`t identify a target, it didn`t identify a date and time. And it made

it very, very bizarre comment like the FBI agent said, didn`t break any laws.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: The connection, no, "I want to be a professional school shooter" and the connection to those photographs...

(CROSSTALK)

LUCICH: I wish that was against the law but that`s not against the law.

BANFIELD: But the connection to the weapons. At least we could -- I feel like there is no point in saying something if I see something now.

LUCICH: I agree. I agree.

BANFIELD: Because really (Inaudible) And I think that`s where I`m getting at. I feel like there is enough nexus to get the ball rolling on this kid.

LUCICH: And I believe one of the comments from the FBI was that we`re unable to confirm it. So maybe they did send the subpoena out to YouTube.

[18:29:59] YouTube was unable to identify an I.P. address of the source and they didn`t want to take it to the next level. And because maybe, number

one, he didn`t come on anybody`s radar, and number two, somebody may have been trying to set him up.

There could have been -- you know, a lot times -- I was retired from the State Organized Crime Bureau, we are in collection mode a lot, and maybe

the FBI sent this guys out to collect information. They ran it. He didn`t come back on anybody`s radar because of the lack of communication between

all the agencies which led to the disaster.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, PRIMETIME JUSTICE SHOW HOST, HLN: Right. The number of terabytes of information that are screaming around on social media right

now, I get it, you can`t look at every one of them.

LUCICH: They are getting it from his cell phone, his tablets, his laptop as well as his online resources.

BANFIELD: Thank you. Bobby Chacon, thank you. Stand by if you will for a moment. It has been about 27 hours since the massacre at Stoneman Douglas.

And we are still learning how it happened. How we lost 17 people. How a 19- year-old boy allegedly got to the point that he wanted to just take them in such a violent bloody way.

CNN`s Brian Todd outside the courthouse right now in Parkland, Florida where all of this is now unraveling. So, what are we learning that`s new

tonight, Brian?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ashleigh, an incredibly dramatic timeline just released a short time ago by Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel. He

had details as to how the shooter got into the school and did all the damage that he did in a relatively short period of time, Ashleigh.

Sheriff Israel saying that the shooter got to the school at 2:19 p.m. through the east stairwell of one building, continued on the first floor

and shot into several rooms. And then went back to one of the rooms and shot again. Then took another stairwell to the second floor, shot a victim

there.

Took another stairwell to third floor where according to the sheriff, he then discarded his magazines, his mask, and his rifle then ran down the

stairs and out the building, blended in with students who were fleeing the scene and was able to elude police officers who were arriving at the scene

at that time.

He then went into the neighborhood, according to the sheriff, went to a nearby Walmart, in a Subway inside the Walmart. He bought a drink there,

took the drink to a nearby McDonald`s, sat down at the McDonald`s for a short period of time, and then went out into the local neighborhood and

just started walking around. He was apprehended a short time later by a Coconut Creek police officer named Michael Leonard.

So, just incredible timeline and details of how the shooter got into the school, what he did with his guns, and just how many the people he shot at,

and the rooms in which he shot. Most of this damage, he said, on the first floor in several rooms there including going back to one room and shooting

again before proceeding on to the second and then the third floors.

The account of how he blended in with the students as they were trying to flee and actually got away for a while, Ashleigh, very very dramatic.

BANFIELD: And Brian, getting a drink at the Subway, you know, in the adjacent Walmart and then moving on to the McDonald`s. And then casually

strolling down that alley by himself until as happen stance would have it, a cruiser noticed that burgundy shirt and wondered, is that the kid? It`s

so remarkable.

And Brian, jus to add to your great reporting there, the police said that they interviewed upwards of 2,000 people. They conducted 2,000 interviews

as of today and we are only 27 hours into this. Brian Todd is reporting for us live from parkland. Thank you for that, Brian.

Look, a lot of people have been saying it. You are going to hear a lot about as this case goes forward more than likely into a death penalty case

if it gets that far. And so the issue of mental health plays widely. It plays loudly. Before, during, and after all of this. Live pictures of the

vigil. That`s not on their minds tonight.

They`re thinking of the people who have been lost. They are thinking of all of those kids and teachers who would have added so much to America. Who

truly would have made America great. And they won`t now. The story of the mental health case that will or won`t be made, next.

[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: We are learning a lot about Nikolas Cruz, the young man who is now facing 17 first-degree murder charges after that mass shooting at the

school in Florida yesterday. And yes, his life wasn`t great. Ten years ago he lost his dad from a heart attack. November 1st he lost his mother from

the flu and pneumonia.

And so a friend of his was kind enough to ask his family if Nikolas could come and live with them. And they said yes. He had his own room. He brought

his own stuff and that included a gun. They didn`t think anything of it. But that family, they now have their own lawyer, too. And that lawyer spoke

with our Alisyn Camerota.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN JOURNALIST AND ANCHOR: Did they see troubling signs of any behavioral problems?

JIM LEWIS, ATTORNEY FOR FAMILY WHO TOOK CRUZ IN: They saw some depression. Obviously, he lost his mom. But they helped him get a job at a dollar tree

store. They got him going to an adult education so he could try to get his GED. He seemed to be doing better.

CAMEROTA: Beyond the depression, did he seem mentally ill?

LEWIS: They didn`t see that. They didn`t see a mentally-ill person or they never would have let him live under their home. These folks opened their

home out

[18:40:00] just to try to help the young man because he really had no other place to go. They did not see any danger. They did not see any kind of

predilection that this was going to happen and they are horrified just like everybody else.

CAMEROTA: Did it worry them that a 19-year-old had an AR-15 while he was depressed?

LEWIS: You know, I really can`t speak to that right now. Obviously, people are going to try fault from them, that they should have seen everything and

known everything.

CAMEROTA: I`m not trying to cast -- listen. I`m not trying to cast fault on them. The fault lies with the shooter, OK? But, should a depressed 19-year-

old young man have an AR-15? I mean, isn`t this one of the warning signs?

LEWIS: That`s something that Congress and everybody else has been debating for years, what the parameters should be.

CAMEROTA: Look.

LEWIS: This family did what they thought was right which was take in a troubled kid and tried to help him. That doesn`t mean that he couldn`t

bring his stuff into their house. They had it locked up and believed that that was going to be sufficient, that there wasn`t going to be a problem.

Nobody saw this kind of aggression or motive in this kid that he would ever do anything like this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Well, as I bring in my next two guests, I will say this. We had a guest on yesterday who said his nephew knew Nikolas Cruz and witnessed

firsthand two very aggressive incidents in school, breaking glass, attacking teachers.

And Nikolas Cruz was expelled because of behavior. So some people know this. Some things that were very disturbing about Nikolas Cruz. And a lot

of people saw his social media. And his social media was very disturbing.

With me now, criminologist and behavioral analyst Casey Jordan, as well as forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober. Dr. Bober, first to you, the mayor

in this community said that the confirmation is out there, that Nikolas had gone to seek medical treatment, mental health treatment, but had not been

to any of the clinics for over a year. Does that trouble you?

DR. DANIEL BOBER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Yes, Ashleigh, but you know, I have been listening to the news coverage on this event all day and I have

to say, I think there has been a lot of hindsight bias or the sort of I told you so effect.

I treat kids like this kid every day. They have violent backgrounds. They have broken homes. They have negative things on social media. And only a

small percentage of them will go on to become school shooters.

So I think we are sort of saying that this event was much more predictable than it actually was, because there is a lot of people that own guns and

there is a lot of people that have negative or even subversive postings on social media and doesn`t mean that they are going to go on to become school

shooters.

So I don`t think we should be beating ourselves up because I don`t think this was as predictable as people say it was.

BANFIELD: So I am with you because you are right. Lots of people say lots of things and there are lots of places to say those things. So it`s a sea

of vitriol out there. But when you combine a few things and the coincidences start linking up, a child who is aggressive to teachers and to

authority.

A child who is aggressive to others, a child who is so aggressive he is kicked out of the public school system, a child who had to seek mental

health treatment, a child who has an affinity for armaments and weapons and the kinds of extremists used that he was posting all over his social media.

And then a suggestion that I`m going to be a professional school shooter, now aren`t we taking it up a notch past the sea of kids that you treat on a

regular basis?

BOBER: I will admit that yes, on paper it looks like a lot of things were there that would suggest that this was possible or some would say even

probable. But again, I think as a society, I would say we are surprised, but we are not shocked.

But making a lot of comments and posting things and even a history of aggression is a long way off from slaughtering 17 people in a school. I

just think there is a huge difference between what you said and what actually happened.

BANFIELD: So let me bring in Casey Jordan if I can. You know, you are a criminologist. You are a behavioral analyst. And I can name you about 10

people I know personally who can make me uneasy, right?

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Yes.

BANFIELD: But that doesn`t mean that I can have them committed.

JORDAN: Right.

BANFIELD: And it doesn`t mean I can have them locked up.

JORDAN: Correct.

BANFIELD: And it also doesn`t mean that we have this plethora of agencies that can follow them around.

JORDAN: Yes. And never forget also that this shooter was over the age of 18. And there are certain things you can do to try to make an intervention

before a kid reaches 18. but after that, they have all adult rights.

Now, I agree with Dr. Bober. This stuff is not as predictable as you would have people think. He sees people like this all the time. They don`t become

school shooters.

When Columbine happened, I was in high school working there as a consultant and the social worker said, I can think of five kids in this high school

right now who are equally capable of the same thing, but none of them have actually shot up a school. Why? Because there was intervention.

So, it may not be predictable, but it is preventable if we isolate the signs. Not all kids who have these problems become school shooters but 100

percent of the school shooters

[18:45:00] do have these signs. So, there is a wonderful document out there that anyone can find online. The FBI`s threat assessment report from 20

years ago post Columbine is still very accurate today. And unfortunately this shooter fits the profile perfectly.

BANFIELD: Once again, when you fit the profile perfectly, what can we do about it?

JORDAN: Nothing. And this is my frustration.

BANFIELD: I`m going to take a break, but I would like you both to stay with me if you will, Dr. Bober and Casey Jordan. I don`t know if you guys, the

two of you or if you, the viewers, feel differently about what happened yesterday. I know we see these things on the news all the time, right? Over

two dozen in the last year and a half.

But something happened yesterday. People broke down. Really strong people broke down. I broke down. I have done this for 30 years. Why? Why now? Are

we feeling helpless? Are we feeling hopeless? Are we feeling like well this is it? Just get used to it. Or is there something we can do especially if

we do drill down on mental health? That`s the question next.

[18:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Back with me live, criminologist Casey Jordan and forensics psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober. So, I went out to break asking you both why

we are so sad. Seventeen. Yes, that is a very high death tool. But in 2017, there were 48 school shootings, 48 in 12 months.

And just so far in 2018, I said 18 yesterday and yes there were 18 gun incidents, but officially there were eight school shootings where at least

one person was shot on school ground not including the shooter.

So, is it the hopelessness, Casey, that I`m feeling at this point? Is it because of what you told me? Sure, yes, you can see all those red flags and

you can`t do much about it?

JORDAN: No. It makes us all guinea pigs in this society for when is the next troubled kid going to break. And I think the hopelessness comes

because here we are almost 20 years after Columbine and nothing has changed. It`s only gotten worse.

As everyone says, you know, they have done everything right in that school. They tried to get him help. He was, you know, seeing a mental health

counsellor. But the problem is it is not illegal to have depression or aberrant thoughts.

BANFIELD: You said something to me in the break that really stood to me. You can see inside someone`s head.

JORDAN: I believe we got to address mental health. Of course, we have to. But that takes a long, long time. It would take years of therapy I think to

really get through to this kid. I can`t see what`s going on in his head, but I can see the gun in the box underneath his bed that he has a key to.

BANFIELD: You also can`t arrest him for what`s in his head.

JORDAN: You can`t arrest him until he has acted.

BANFIELD: You can arrest him for what he has got in his hand, but not what`s in his head.

JORDAN: We have no thought police.

BANFIELD: And I know this debate is big right now in America. It`s not lost on me. Dr. Bober, the one thing that also was not lost on me was that as I

broadcast all of these details to thousands and thousands of Americans who are horrified and hugged their children tighter last night, one of them is

going to die because it`s not over.

So when you watched it all, and viewers, I`m talking to you, when you watch this all happen and you are horrified by it, one of you, two of you, 10 of

you, dozens of you are next. Someone who is watching this is going to die. And someone who is watching is going to lose a child.

Dr. Bober, how do we deal with this hopelessness? How do we get over the fact that we are all sitting ducks?

BOBER: Ashleigh, I just wanted to say one thing. You know, we can`t underestimate the proliferation of social media. If you look at when the

Columbine shooting occurred, right after than in the late 90s, there was this huge proliferation of social media in a 24-hour news cycle. There has

been a huge uptick in these events since that happened.

And I think it has a lot to do with this generation. The need to be noticed, to be famous, to be recognized. And there is also a contagion

effect that occurs that we know that a few weeks after the events happen that they are more likely to occur again because of copycats. So I think

that can`t be overlooked.

BANFIELD: We had that this morning. You know, we had the copycat threats even this morning. It`s appalling and you`re right. You`re right. But I

really hope that Americans who are watching right now, take that note. One of you at least is going to be next. That`s just a fact because we all

watched Columbine and so did some of those dead kids and their parents. They watched it horrified too. And now they are part of the club. Who is

next? Who`s the next member?

Tonight, I want to show you the pictures as we remember those who lost their lives as we feel for them and we mourn for them and we love them and

we reach out and we give the virtual hug to all of their loved ones who hurt so much. And that is juxtaposed by the young man who after he shot 17

dead went to Walmart, got a drink at Subway, went to McDonald`s, and is alleged to be a 17 times over first-degree murderer.

[18:55:00] [19:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(START VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT ISRAEL, SHERIFF, BROWARD COUNTY: Pray for this city, pray for this school, the parents, the folks that lost their lives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, it`s your worst nightmare as a parent.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here said mom, it was really real. It was really real. He said I saw two students and a teacher dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my God!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police! Police!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nikolas Cruz, who came in on campus with a backpack.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does he know where the shooter is?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t know, but we are in the building.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We ran downstairs and then right after that, I looked back up and he got shot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The parents and the families -- they send their kids to school and they did not return.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The violence has to stop.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST: I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is the second hour of CRIME AND JUSTICE.

Tonight, the scene of a high school massacre gets even more grim. A scene where Valentine`s day roses have been reddened by pools of blood and where

the bodies of innocent children still lay as forensics officials pour through the details and collect the evidence and then release details by

the hour.

New details. Like the 19-year-old suspect confessed to the killing, telling investigators how he blended into the crowd of students, fleeing his former

school, running right along with them as they all ran out with their hands up before he decided to peel off because he was thirsty and get a drink at

a subway and then go to a McDonald`s.

This after rampaging three floors of the high school. Dropping the AR-15 in the stair well along with the vest and the smoke bombs and all those extra

magazines. By the way, in case you are interested, yes, that was post- Miranda which means anything he says including all that stuff will be used against him.

A couple other things that we are learning as well that are brand-new. We have now discovered a second Instagram account of Nikolas Cruz, the accused

shooter. This is the profile picture. The face covered with the scarf and the make America great again hat. Nikolas Cruz`s Instagram account didn`t

just show this profile picture, it also showed him with rifles and an entire collection of weaponry spread out on a bed. Various different kinds

of armaments and actually a scope looking out through a window was on that Instagram account as well.

On that account he said something about being hit by a car. And that was posted about seven months ago. Some things look like they might have been

target practice at some point. Hard to make it out.

But I can tell you this. The address for this Instagram account is @nikolascruzmakarov. And yet it spell correctly, Nikolas Cruz. Just like

the poster when he suggested that he was going to be a professional school shooter and actually used his name, Nikolas Cruz. And yet somehow the FBI

when they were tipped off to that, they could not find him.

I can also give you this update as well. You have been hearing that there were 17 victims, but nobody is delineated between kids and adults, students

and teachers, coaches, athletic directors, freshmen and seniors. I can tell you know, at least, that we know three of the victims were educators.

Christopher Hixson, Aaron Feis and Scott Beigel, 49, 37 and 35 years old respectively.

Fourteen of those victims all in the school, those were students. Too many names to mention. Very long list. But I will tell you where they will be

mentioned. You will see these faces play out over the course of the next several days all across the news networks as people try their best to put

the focus on these people and not the one person who is alleged to have done it, who is facing 17 counts of first-degree murder because of those 17

murders.

Instead, those 17 people are being honored at a vigil tonight and there are thousands of people who have turned out in Florida to pay their respects.

Just look at this sea of candles. This is Parkland, Florida. Where last night no one really knew what the toll was. No one really knew what the

story was. No one knew much about Nikolas Cruz. No one knew the names of the people that 24 hours later they would be honoring.

Our Mike Galanos is amongst those thousands. And we had to turn his light off in respect for the process ongoing on the ground.

Mike, I don`t know if you can hear me or if you are on the phone, but just I want you to give me a feel for who is there and how they are honoring

these victims.

[19:05:17] MIKE GALANOS, HLN ANCHOR (on the phone): Ashleigh, good point. It is very emotional. And we just thought out of respect that we would turn

our light off because we were very close to the speakers and we did not want to compete with the speakers as we would be talking.

So I pulled myself out of that position. I`m just a step outside of the crowd which you have just mentioned, thousands.

What we are seeing is more really, Ashleigh, what we are feeling. It is such an emotion, a heart felt emotion. But so many students from Marjory

Stoneman Douglas high school are here probably wearing the school color, maroon and flying the eagle flag, so to speak. And all it takes is one hug

and the tears begin to fall.

And then you can just sense, these are students and people in a community that want to be together tonight. So emotional that different speakers came

to speak. One father who lost his daughter, 14-year-old, Jaime Guttenberg (ph). This father spoke through tears.

And then the emotional moment was when the senior class president from the high school, Ashleigh, read every name. And as that took place, you could

hear student who is did not know and all of a sudden their friend`s name was read and then the sobs of grief would ring out.

So much emotion and so much grief, but yet there is a strength as so many speakers have come up tonight saying we are family. We are Parkland strong

and urging people to look around and as families do, we lean on each other at a time like this. And that`s really the sense of what`s going on. Again,

the emotional moment was when all 17 names were read and people began to realize someone they may have been close to, Ashleigh, is now gone.

BANFIELD: OK. Let`s just keep those pictures up for a second. And if the control room will just permit me for a moment, you know what, it`s worth

doing this because our viewers department get to hear that list being read so I`m going to do it while you watch.

The 17 angels that you see up there on the stage and those who have the candles facing them, those angels represent Carmen Schentrup, 16. Meadow

Pollack, 18. Peter Wong, 15. Nicholas Dworet, 17. Luke Hoyer, 15. Elena Petty, 14. Jamie Guttenberg, 14. Martin Duque Anguiano, 14. Alyssa

Alhadeff, 14. Helena Ramsey, 17. Joaquin Oliver, 17. Cara Loughran, 14. Gina Montalto, 14 and alexander Schachter was 14. They also represent an

educator named Christopher Hixon, 49 years old, Aaron Feis, 37 and Scott Beigel, 35.

If I can, I would like bring in David Hogg. David is the student news director of the high school senior. He has spoken so eloquently about what

he and his fellow students are going through now and went through. It is hard to believe just one day go. But David, what is remarkable about you is

that you somehow were able to do what you do best. And that is interview and talked to kids, even as this was happening.

Can you walk me through those moments when you are actually on lockdown and hiding and had the wherewithal to start asking questions of your fellow

students?

DAVID HOGG, SCHOOL SHOOTING SURVIVOR (on the phone): Yes, I can. What I was thinking that situation as something that nobody ever wants to or would

should have to think. What is our life and what is our legacy? What has been the point? And while I realizing that and the fact that this was not a

drill. In fact, that this is real life, I realized that we could have died and that there was a solid chance that that shooter could walk in to the

room that I was in with Isabel Robinson and Alex`s view and so many other brave souls were in there. And the fact that all of us could have died

really resonated with me. And I realized that if I was going to die, I was going to die that telling a good story and the story that people need to

hear in this country and that is the fact that this amount of gun violence and this, just the amount of pure terror and misery that people are feeling

like my sister who lost two of her best friends that lost with here friends, sadly is unacceptable and that is something that has to be

changed. Because if we don`t stand up now, I don`t when we will. I don`t want to face that.

[19:10:05] BANFIELD: David, and this is - you know, as you recount this moment where you were asking questions and as of you said, if I`m going

die, I am at lest going to - I`m going to provide the accounts of what`s happening. At the same time your own sister, a freshman you just mentioned

lost two of her friends. She was in the school. Did you have any idea where she was or if she was OK?

HOGG: I knew that she was OK because she actually called me like right after the drill where we thought it was the drill had started. And she told

me she was OK. She was actually on the other side of the campus, thank God. She was hiding behind the set and TV and our WMSD TV protection studio. And

she was hiding behind there with multiple other students. Thank God she survived.

But I mean, there are not words to describe the amount of pain and grief that I have felt and what I have seen which is over the past 24 hours of

all these 17 individuals that were important parts of this school. And people that had amazing ideas and aspirations were going to do amazing

things are now gone. It`s not OK. It`s not OK.

BANFIELD: So David, the stories that are coming out about I think people you know well. Your assistant football coach Aaron Feis apparently shielded

other students from being shot and instead himself took the bullets.

There is also a story you can tell us about your janitor who if I have the story right may be responsible for saving your life.

HOGG: He definitely is. And so chef Kurt, the culinary teacher at our school.

What happened is essentially because the sick individual that was the shooter, because he pulled the fire alarm to get all the staff target out

there. And many people were out and people started running frantically in the opposite direction that I was headed. And I started running with the

people in the opposite direction where I was at (INAUDIBLE). And along that way - sorry, along that way, it was just pure chaos and terror that we were

feeling. And as we were headed in the actually wrong direction, this individual, I don`t know his name, but he is a janitor at the school, I

believe. And he told us stop, don`t go this way. He is over here. And by he, he meant the shooter. And the second he said that, Chef Kurt, the

culinary teacher at our school, she opened her door and she got easily I would say 40 to 50 students and about 100 feet of square space in about 30

seconds. And that`s another reason why we thought this was a drill. So well coordinated by the individuals that was there. So much heroism that we

found in the face of such terror and loss. It was true. It was real.

BANFIELD: David, you are a remarkable kid. I need to remind the viewers that you are a kid. That you are a senior. That you are not a professional

reporter. A seasoned, you know, reporter who has been through the wringer and seen these kinds of things before. You know, you are still a kid. And

God, I hope that you can remain a kid. And I thank you so much for telling us the story that you did. And I also wish you well.

David Hogg, what an amazing young man.

David just told you about drills and professionals of that school that saved lives. What else? What else can we do at the schools to save lives?

What more can we do? How much more security can we actually provide? Short of an army at every single school. That`s next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[19:18:56] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A child of God is dead. We cannot -- we acknowledge in this country that we can`t - we cannot accept this. I can`t

do it, Wolf. I`m sorry.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Because the day to talk about it was weeks, months, years or decades ago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Students have been reaching out to me. Now is the time for this country to have a real conversation on sensible gun control laws

in this country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are children. You guys are the adults. You need to take some action and play a role. Work together. Come over your politics

and get something done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would rather pass gun safety legislation than win the election because people die from this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It only happens not because of coincidence, not because of bad luck but a consequence of our inaction.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do we allow a gunman to come into the school. Action! We needed it now! These kids need safety now!

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[19:20:00] HOGG: Something feels different. I don`t know what it is. I can`t put my finger on it, but something feels very, very different. Even

though we have seen dozens of school shootings in the last 14 months, something feels different. And you know it`s different when a hardened

counter terrorism expert who has seen the worst of what human kind can do has this reaction to Wolf Blitzer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM EXPERT: I have 10 nieces and nephews. We are talking about bump stocks. We are talking about legislation. A child of

God is dead. Can not we acknowledge in this country that we -- we cannot accept this. I can`t do it, Wolf. I`m sorry. I can`t do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That`s CNN counterterrorism expert Phil Mudd. He is with me live. You probably know Phil because he joins us all the time with all of his

expertise in the FBI and the CIA.

I said it before, Phil. You have seen everything and yet this one, this one sent you there. Do you know why?

MUDD: Yes. It`s the first time I heard it, actually. There are a few reasons why. And I was raised by a mom who read to us at the table every

day stories. She told us that every child carried a spark of God. And you hear the conversations about what we should do. I just heard the governor

of Florida dodged the question of will you or will you not support legislation to do something about this. He dodged and dodged and dodged.

I think sometimes when you look at this repeatedly, you can go to a higher level and say it`s not about a state legislature, it is not about bump

stocks. It is not about automatic weapons. Can we acknowledge that when we fail to make sacrifices on this country on legislation or countering the

NRA that a child of God dies. I mean, it`s just a profound to say we can`t do anything about it.

And one other thing, quickly. I`m a career analyst. The numbers tell us the answer. If you look at numbers, and I`m a numbers guy. I know I sounded

emotional last night, but I look at this analytically. If you look at variables in western countries and around the world on things like mental

health which we are raising in this case today, on things like gun control, there is one variable strictly looking at the numbers of the incidents of

violence and violent deaths in countries like Canada and Europe. There is only one variable that is different. It is not mental health. It`s access

to weapons. That`s a number. I don`t know what to tell you. It`s black and white.

BANFIELD: Yes. And I will tell you what. I had the same reaction that you did. And I have been around the block too and seen a lot of things. I don`t

know if it`s hopelessness or helplessness. I think it might be a combination and just the thought of all those parents in the news. I have

other news I want to share that we are getting in.

Phil, hold on. I have some other news that I want to share right now that we are getting in. A neighbor, a former neighbor of Nikolas Cruz has now

given us a video that he shot outside towards Nikolas Cruz`s back yard of Nikolas Cruz with what appeared to be a BB gun. A BB gun hand gun in his

Boxers, waving it around. He is wearing that red hat. I don`t know that that`s the red hat from the Instagram profile shot that says make America

great again. It`s too hard to see it that far away.

But this is what the neighbor said about this video. That this is the kind of behavior he had seen over and over again. He and his wife saw Nikolas

Cruz in the backyard of we presume to be maybe his mother`s home because this was October of last year when his mother was still alive. But this was

the behavior of pointing guns towards other homes, towards this neighbor`s window. Sometimes shooting towards this neighbor`s window.

This neighbor said that Nikolas Cruz would shoot bottles and cans and buckets and do target practice. And finally after two months of seeing this

kind of behavior, this neighbor decided to start videotaping. Felt very afraid. His wife said she felt very afraid. They had another video and

unfortunately erased it, but it was a video, he says, of Nikolas Cruz pointing a gun towards his house.

So once again, this is a former neighbor who took pictures of the alleged school massacre shooter, Nikolas Cruz. And I`m just going to say that it

appears to be a BB gun. Lots of people have different descriptions of what kind of BB gun, but wearing the Boxers and the red cap. Like I said we

zeroed in as well as we can, but can`t depict whether it`s the same ball cap that he was wearing in the second Instagram account that we have now

found where he is wearing a make America great again hat. And also showing weapons all over his bed and everywhere else.

I want to bring in Frank DeAngelis, if I can. Frank DeAngelis was the principal of Columbine high school.

Frank, it`s hard to believe -- you are also joined by Aaron Rosen, a former school resource officer. Phil Mudd is still with us, too.

Frank, I was just reminding myself of some of the facts about columbine and I cannot believe it will be 20 years next year. You are the perfect person

to ask. Are we getting any better at this? Are we worse?

[19:25:30] FRANK DEANGELIS, FORMER PRINCIPAL, COLUMBINE HIGH SCHOOL: It scares me because it seems like we are making the same mistakes over and

over again. And just within the past three weeks, I have been in contact with three different administrations in Kentucky.

Today, I was talking to cabinet members in Florida to help them out. And I can remember making a statement back in 1999 that I hope the 13 who lost

their lives today did not die in vain and we see these senseless deaths happening time and time again.

The thing that I question a little bit is we hear about these deaths which continue that we cannot deny. I want to know how many have we stopped

because of programs we have in place and I don`t know the answers to that. We do have - we are doing things differently. But even though we are doing

things differently, we are having the same reactions or the same results. And things have to change. And I think the student that spoke out, Mr.

Hogg, David Hogg, I think was his name, said it so eloquently. That we need to put our philosophical differences aside. We need to cross house. We need

to get things done. Because one more death is one too many.

BANFIELD: So Frank, I do want to ask you a little bit about the new culture in these last two decades since your school Columbine was wracked with this

horror of gun violence. You know, I read the stats earlier, 48 school shootings just in 2017. 48 ! Just in 2017! And then eight official ones in

2018, six weeks, eight that involved at least one victim who was not a shooter and the shooter was actually on the school grounds. That is how we

are coming to the eight number. It was 18 yesterday because some gun incidents were a little bit different, but eight official ones.

And yet, when we covered Columbine, the news cycle shut down for two weeks. Everyone was on the ground at columbine. No one spoke of anything else for

weeks. Now, it`s difficult to remember a shooting in November. And I wonder if you have thoughts of how (INAUDIBLE) we are becoming to the news and the

images of kids streaming out with their arms up.

DEANGELIS: And you bring up such a valid point that I had this discussion with others. And I don`t know if we are immune and it scares me. What I am

hearing now is there is another school shooting and people are not in shock. It`s almost like, well, how many this time? And that says something

about a society that is not feeling what we were feeling back against columbine. And what scares me if we are just accepting this as a way of

life.

I worry about my granddaughter. I worry about my nieces and nephews in growing up in a society like this. And this is why we need to come together

and we need to say enough is enough. And I worry the big difference I see now what is happening 19 years since Columbine and where we are today is

the social media and what impact is that having broadcasting. And are we teaching our students? Are we teaching our young people what to do when

there are signs out there because in most of these case, I`m sure if you were to talk to experts, they are broadcasting what are they going to do.

And are we taking these threats seriously?

We hear about the Instagram accounts they have and stuff that were posting. At what point do we have to say -- we hear about this.

BANFIELD: How about the You Tuber - obviously, how about the You Tuber who did see something and then say something and it didn`t amount to anything.

But you brought up a really interesting point, Frank.

And I want to get Aaron to weigh in on that. And that is, what more can we do? If we are going to be in the situation where we at least can know

things about more kids through their social media, do you arm every school resource officer? And I will just say right now that this school is so big,

there are about 3,000 kids. And the school resource officer at this school didn`t even come into contact with this shooter. So I guess the question

is, unless you have an army of armed resource officers at each school, are you really going to be able to put your finger in the dike?

AARON ROSEN, FORMER SCHOOL RESOURCE OFFICER: Well, Ashleigh, I mean, as you heard previously --

BANFIELD: Go ahead, Aaron. I wanted to get your perspective as a former resource officer.

ROSEN: Sure. Well, most schools now do employ school resource officers in a cooperative between local jurisdictions and their police and sheriffs

offices. But even still, with the population of 3,000, the jurisdiction where I came from also had a high school of about 3,000. They`re small

cities, right? So, what do we do? Most high schools of that size have one if not two school resource officers assigned to them. But they`re also

dealing with day to day stuff. It`s very hard. It`s very hard. And the fact that we have a high school student who has to use terminologies such as

soft targets?

BANFIELD: Yes.

ROSEN: That`s what we can do less of.

BANFIELD: Right? And didn`t that stick out? I mean, this is a kid who speaks as an adult does, who knows the language and the culture of school

shootings. I said it last night gentlemen, I said so many of the interviews that I`ve conducted with this kids who are coming right out of trauma.

Within you know, an hour of being involved in the trauma spoke so articulately and clearly about what they had seen. That it made me realize

that it`s not weird to them. It`s not unusual. It`s not out of the norm. It`s shocking, without question. But it`s not strange because they know

this world from what they see. I have one more question. Phil, this one`s for you. And it has to do with something I was thinking about during those

pictures of the vigil. So many of those parents and loved ones of the kids who died, those kids leave behind iPhones that are password protected and

social media accounts that are password protected. With virtual lives and photographs and memories, can those parents ever get to that data?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: It depends on the phone and it depends on the provider obviously. Depends on whether the parent has access

to the password. My question, in this case and to get to the point of whether they can access the data would be from a professional perspective?

If I don`t have an indication that there`s a following conspiracy from this kid. The federal authorities aren`t going to go and then say: I wouldn`t

think I wanted someone to help a family access that phone. I think for some people who are dealing with phones that are password protected and

unbreakable, they may not be able to get into them.

BANFIELD: I mean, I find that almost as tragic just knowing that those memories are ghost-like in themselves right now. For those parents who are

just desperate for anything. Last word, go ahead.

ROSEN: Actually, I just wanted to comment on that. They should not be password protected. The first line of defense is mom and dad, right? I give

my son his device and the agreement is I get in at any time at the drop of the pin, give me your phone. Don`t touch it, don`t open it, don`t

manipulate it. That should be the first line of defense that I get.

BANFIELD: Amen.

ROSEN: Running access to the phone.

BANFIELD: Aaron?

ROSEN: Instagram or Pinstagram.

BANFIELD: Yes, I`ll tell you what, I`d do the same. And the minute I can`t get into them, is the minute I take that phone for good. Gentlemen, I have

to leave it there. Thank you so much Phil and you know, thanks for getting through this and I saw you yesterday, and my heart broke right alongside

you, my friend. Frank D`Angelo, I hope you and I don`t keep meeting like this. And Aaron Rosen, thank you for your extra tips. Appreciate it.

ROSEN: Thank you.

BANFIELD: So a little bit of a hard turn here and that is this. 50 percent of America wants that kid dead. 50 percent of America wants that kid to

suffer for the rest of his life in a small cell. Where do you weigh in? And what do you think the authorities are doing right now? What do you think

those people who are holding the vigil want? That`s next.

[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT ISRAEL, PATROL OFFICER AT FT. LAUDERDALE POLICE DEPARTMENT: The suspect`s been charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder. Law

enforcement will do everything we can. The FBI, ourselves, to make sure that this person is convicted of all charges and that justice is served.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Last night was the hardest night of their lives. 17 families stunned by news that no one should ever get and numbed by pain that few

will ever know. And still, a day later as these families try to wake up out of this nightmare, the bodies of their children may still be lying in a

pool of blood inside Stoneman Douglas High School. Because it takes that long to process a crime scene that big. Make no mistake, they are going-

over it with a fine tooth comb. Because they`re going to need every shred of evidence they can find. If they want to give the perpetrator the death

penalty. With me now, forensic scientist and Professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, Doctor Lawrence Kobilinsky. And former Broward County

Prosecutor, Ken Padowitz. Welcome to both of you. Larry, first to you. Take me inside that school right now and describe for me what`s happening.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, PH.D, FORENSIC SCIENTIST AND PROFESSOR AT JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: I think you are right Ashley. It`s a complex

and very difficult crime scene to process. Their evidence collection and people in there trying to collect evidence. It`s a very bloody scene. There

are bodies strewn here and there. Measurements have to be taken. There`s property, there is cell phones and there are books, backpacks, all sorts of

objects. It was Valentine`s Day. There were probably flowers and other things.

[19:40:06] BANFIELD: We`ve been told, there were roses and there were full of blood.

KOBILINSKY: It`s a very complicated scene. But you know, this is going to end up in the court and everything needs to be collected and documented,

measured, graphics, video, photographs. It`s all got to be packaged, it can`t be contaminated. It`s a very complex tough scene to process.

BANFIELD: How many days might it take before they can get those children and teachers out?

KOBILINSKY: This kind of scene can take days before they turn it back for anybody to enter. It takes a long time to process. You need -- you need

days just to collect and preserve and package and then send it to the lab. I expect this scene won`t be turned over for about a week.

BANFIELD: A week?

KOBILINSKY: It could take that long.

BANFIELD: And ultimately that`s when the crime tape comes down and the clean-up begins.

KOBILINSKY: Clean-up, right. It`s everything biohazard. There`s blood it`s got to be cleaned up properly.

BANFIELD: Let me go to Ken Padowitz if I can. Ken, as former homicide prosecutor in this county. Larry just told you that the crime scene is huge

which means that the collection will be massive and there is ample evidence we already know of. Like a shooter who has post-Miranda said I did it. It

was me. Do they make a deal with this man or do they say straight to the death penalty?

KEN PADOWITZ, FORMER BROWARD COUNTY PROSECUTOR: That`s true. Let me first of all say not only was I a homicide prosecutor in Broward County, but my

family and my wife, my children who are in the school system here in Broward. We live 15 minutes away from this horrific tragedy and our hearts

have been breaking every minute for the last two days for the victims and their families and our friends that have been affected by this. But yes,

the answer to your question is they`re going to look at every single piece of evidence. This homicide prosecutors in the state attorney`s office, are

going to be looking at hair evidence and fiber evidence. Blood spatter evidence. They`re going to be going-over testimonial evidence from various

witnesses at the scene.

They`re going to be looking at DNA evidence. They`re going to be looking at every bit and piece of evidence that they can glean in order to determine

whether or not they have sufficient evidence to support aggravators. Because when a prosecutor is determining within a 45 day period, whether or

not to file a piece of paper that says they`re seeking the death penalty. They need to make sure they have evidence, sufficient evidence that will

support an aggravator. There are 15 aggravators in the Florida law, they only need one of them. And they can then go forward and after a careful

review, make a decision to seek the death penalty.

BANFIELD: I`m just a bit curios if they want to save the money. Because it often takes 20 years and millions upon millions to actually carry out a

death penalty because of the post litigation after trial, the appeals that are mandatory under our system. But that`s down the road from now.

Gentleman, thank you, appreciate it. There is one thing you may want to know and what does it looks like when a school shooter rots in prison for

decades? We`re going to show you.

[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The attack began at 11:30 a.m. The two students dressed in trench coats and fatigues opened fire in a school parking lot

and then entered the high school.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And they just came in and it was like pushing us out of the classroom and we didn`t know what was going on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was just so many gunshots and people screaming and it was hell. What hell would be like.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw three kids just fall from the table. And I saw he was trying to reload his gun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unfortunately, we`ve seen these shootings across the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: There have been so many shootings at so many schools. I`m with you. It is hard to keep up and it is hard to process how multiple students

can die while a teenage killer survives. So, I`m here to tell you tonight in some cases the killer is still alive and is still being punished years

and decades later.

In Chardon, Ohio back in 2012, 17-year-old T.J. lane unloaded a handgun in the school cafeteria 7:30 in the morning, killing three kids, injuring

others, paralyzing one for life. He got sent away. But he escaped prison two years in. He was fortunately caught, however, and is back for life.

In 1998 in Jonesboro, Arkansas, 13-year-old Michael -- Mitchell Johnson and 11-year-old Andrew Golden pulled the fire alarm, yes, the fire alarm. Yes,

the fire alarm. And then they began firing as people filed out of the school that killed four girls and a teacher and they got caught trying to

flee the scene. They were jailed, but then they were released on their 21st birthdays. That was 10 years ago. And Johnson continued to run into trouble

in and out of jail, last known to be on probation in Texas. He`s now 33 years old.

[19:49:54] The year before Jonesboro, a 14-year-old in Paducah, Kentucky, wrapped a shotgun and a rifle in a blanket and passed it off as an art

project, and it opened fire on a prayer group at school, three dead, five hurt. A witness said the shooter, Michael Carneal, placed his gun on the

floor and surrendered to the principal saying, "Kill me, please. I can`t believe what I just did." He was sentenced in 1998 to life with no chance

of parole for 25 years. But that was 20 years ago. So, tick tock. Before Michael Carneal then. After, Michael Carneal now. And that`s what it looks

like when you`ve spent two decades behind bars, and you still have five years to find out if you`ll get your first shot at being released. Michael

Carneal then, Michael Carneal now.

With me now is Dave Cullen, he literally wrote the book on Columbine. The book is called "Columbine." Dave, one of the things that I found so

disturbing and so unique, we`re going into year `20 next year since Columbine. The kids who ran out of the school in Columbine, they were not

talking about gun control that day.

DAVE CULLEN, AUTHOR, "COLUMBINE": No. Not that day, not that week. I was there the first hour. And you know, just talking about this now, I don`t

recall a kid the entire first week talking about it. One of the dads of the 13 killed victims became the gun control dad, he kept talking about it. And

it was kind of a novelty, he was the one guy. But after, you know, Columbine, there had been nothing like this. And we wondered if there

really would again. Obviously, there have been Paducah and those other smaller events but nothing of this magnitude. And really, people kind of

naively thought like, OK, this is so much more horrifying. We`ll never get this bad again.

BANFIELD: By the way, that was 15 kids and yesterday was 17. And at 15 kids at Columbine, the news cycle shut down for weeks. Nobody talked of anything

else. I don`t know how long this one will be in the news cycle. And I say this one so sadly because now with 48 school shootings in 2017 alone,

there`s going to be another one, by my watch, probably within weeks.

CULLEN: Right. Compassion fatigue. But we are in a different world now. So, then it was, it was this horrible thing. It seemed like a one off -- and

nobody knew what to do. And kids weren`t thinking in that terms of how to solve this because it didn`t seem like a series of things. Now, we know

better. Now, we`ve had 20 years, Columbine isn`t even on the top 10 list anymore. It`s gotten so much -- and it`s -- they`re escalating quickly in

magnitude. So, now, kids have changed their tune. Now kids, they want -- you know, they knew before it happened yesterday, there were already

frustrated it happening in other places. And why aren`t the adults doing something about this? So, when it happened to them, they were like, God

damn it, like, you know, what are people doing to act?

BANFIELD: Help us.

CULLEN: Yes, yes, help us. Do something.

BANFIELD: You`re the grownups. Our interview David Hub today said you`re the grown-ups, we`re the kids. Help us. And they were talking about gun

control today. The sheriff in Broward County said the kids were talking to him about gun control today. They said now is the time. From the mouths of

babes, Dave, I have to leave it there. We have to stop meeting like this.

CULLEN: I know. God, yes.

BANFIELD: Dave Cullen, thank you.

CULLEN: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Coming up, the people who deserve the coverage, the people who deserve it, the kids who lost their lives, the three teachers who tried to

protect them.

[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Earlier tonight, thousands of people gathered for a vigil to remember those victims of the shooting, and one of the students of Marjory

Stoneman Douglas High School read out their names.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Carmen Schentrup, Meadow Pollack, Peter Wang, Nicholas Dworet, mr. -- christopher hixon, Mr. Christopher Hixon, Mr. Aaron Feis,

Luke Hoyer, Alaina Petty, Jamie Guttenberrg, Martin Duque, Alyssa Alhadeff, Helena Ramsey, Mr. Scott Beigel, Joaquin Oliver, Cara Loughran, Gina

Montalto, and Alexander Schachter.

END