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Coverage of Trump Gun Event. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired February 28, 2018 - 15:30   ET


SEN. STEVE DAINES, R-MT: The Sheriff Steve Holton of Ravalli County arrested that young man, and most likely prevented another mass shooting. That's what we need.

TRUMP: Good. Thank you, Steve.


DEUTCH: Thank you, Mr. President.

I've spent a lot of time since the shooting in Marjory Stoneman Douglas with the students who survived, and they've been very clear that what they want is action. And I am heartened by what you say about the need for presidential leadership. You can do this.

I understand, Mr. President, that you met with the NRA. What matters here is not the NRA. What matters here is preventing another one of these mass shootings. And so I'm so grateful to hear that Senator Toomey and Senator Manchin's bill -- not "might be," I would suggest must be a part of this for universal background checks. There are so many things that we can do right now.

The only thing I would add: You started, Mr. President, by pointing out that there would be differences of opinion. Please know that there are great differences of opinion on the question of whether having teachers armed with guns, firing back at a potential mass shooter is the answer. I don't think it is. Many others don't.

Please also know that there are -- the majority of the people in this country now understand that there are limitations on the second amendment. You cannot own an automatic weapon. You cannot own a bazooka. And so there is no reason to continue to sell to people a weapon of war like this.

I know there are differences of opinion. I just hope that we can act, that we can show the American people and the kids and their grieving families in my district that, with presidential leadership, it doesn't matter what Congress says -- that you can help push this forward and that we will consider everything included in (ph) this bill.

TRUMP: Good. I like that and I appreciate that.

The fact is a lot is up to the states, and that's good. And the states are going to feel differently. Texas, as an example, is very much, as to what I'm saying -- and you've done well. You haven't had...

CORNYN: Eight states.

TRUMP: ... this (ph) problem.

CORNYN: Six more considering.

TRUMP: So we have eight states, yeah, and we have another six or seven or eight considering, and that's OK. And you may be different, and you may have a very good thing for your state. So I don't think the states have to be the same.

What does have to be the same are the background checks and all of the data, whether it's Fix NICS or all of the things that we're going to be adding. That has to be very much the same. You have to be able to share with states and share with localities and all of that. But I agree with you.

I do think this: I think that some states are different. Some states are going to do what Texas does, and some states don't want that program. I think it's a good program, but some states don't want that program.

The reason I like it is that I really believe it's going to prevent it from ever happening, because they are cowards and they're not going in when they know they're going to come out dead. They're not going into a school when they know they're going to come out dead.

When you look at this guy in Florida, he walked out with everybody, like it was a fire drill. He walked out and he got away. And a policeman did a fantastic job, two towns away -- that policeman wasn't given much credit, but he found him, he saw him, and he looked like the description, and he got him. That was a great job.

So we have to give them some credit, because this was not the finest day. This man and probably two or three others, Marco, were not exactly very good. They didn't do their job very well. But I do agree with what you say. Amy, please.

KLOBUCHAR: Mr. President, thank you...

TRUMP: Thank you.

KLOBUCHAR: ... for calling us together today...

TRUMP: Thank you.

KLOBUCHAR: ... and I come from a proud hunting state. You know that.

TRUMP: Yes, you do.

KLOBUCHAR: So I have that hat (ph). But then I also have law enforcement. I was a prosecutor for eight years, and I got involved in this issue from police coming to me.

And one of the issues they raised for years was the fact that there was this gun show loophole, and there issues with commercial purchases that didn't allow them to get the information they need to make sure that the people were safe. And that's why I've been such a strong supporter of the Manchin-Toomey bill.

TRUMP: Good.

KLOBUCHAR: It's not going to fix everything, but it is a good base to start with. And I want to just make one more...


TRUMP: It's the best we've ever done, too, by far.

KLOBUCHAR: ... and I want to make one more case, and we appreciate your support for that bill from a different perspective. And, of course, I support Dianne's bill and other things. But the states that have these background checks -- they have a 38 percent lower domestic homicide rate -- this is domestic violence.

TRUMP: Right.

KLOBUCHAR: And, for those cases, especially, it makes a major difference. And this number, to -- for you to keep with you -- 6,000 women in 10 years were killed by a partner, whether it was a spouse or boyfriend -- 6,000. That is more than our -- we've lost for (ph) brave troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

TRUMP: Big difference.

KLOBUCHAR: And so just doing something on this background check issue and using that as a base, and then I would like to add some of these other things we've talked about, I think, would make a major difference...

TRUMP: So if you can add that to this bill, that would be great. Dianne, if you could add what you have also and I think you can into the bill --

FEINSTEIN: Joe, are you ready?


TRUMP: can you do that? Joe can you do that? Pat? Can you add some of the -- you're going to agree with.

FEINSTEIN: If you help.

TRUMP: Well no, I'll help, but can you add what Amy and what Dianne have? Can we add them in? And I know you can add what ...

KLOBUCHAR: I have another domestic violence bill that's very narrow, and it's about dating partners and a number of states have just enacted it with Republican support.

TRUMP: I would say this, we're going to get it passed. We're going to get it passed. If you can add domestic-violence paragraphs, pages into this bill, I'm all for it. I think it's terrific if you can do it. It can be done. That could be done too.


CORNYN: Mr. President, could I respectfully recommend that Steve Scalise, the vote-counter in the House is going to be a key role in all of this and he's had a personal near-tragic experience with one of these mass shootings himself.

TRUMP: Good.

SCALISE: Well, I appreciate, Mr. President, you convening everybody. Thank you, Senator Cornyn, my whip counterpart.

The House did pass a bill, a bill dealing with fixing problems with our background-check system. We also combined with it a bill that advanced concealed-carry reciprocity; in other words, people that have concealed-carry permits in one state enabled to have that same ability in another state, with concealed-carry laws that are on the books.

And before that's immediately discounted because I know when we passed our bill there was, number one, we -- I had to whip the bill; it wasn't a bill that just automatically passed, and there were a lot of our members that said, look, we want to close these problems and fix these problems with the background-check system, and we came together and actually passed a bill.

But we also felt that if you look at the concealed-carry population, these are people, by and large, who are helping us stop crimes. These are people who are well trained, and who actually go out there and help prevent crimes. So I would hope that that's not immediately dismissed because there is a lot talk of just putting that on the side and ...


TRUMP: You know I'm your biggest fan in the whole world, right? I think that maybe that bill will someday pass, but it should pass as a separate -- if you're going to put concealed carry between states into this bill, we're talking about a whole new ballgame and, you know, I'm with you, but let it be a separate bill. You'll never get this passed. If you add concealed carry to this, you'll never get it passed. Let it be a separate bill...


SCALISE: ...being talked about that wouldn't pass the House...

TRUMP: I don't think -- I don't think -- you know, again, you'll never get it passed. So we want to get something done.

But what's your second point?

SCALISE: (Inaudible) pass it in the House, so at least please recognize that. Look at the data. I know a lot of people just want to dismiss concealed-carry permits, they do actually increase safety. So I understand your point. I did appreciate some of the other points you brought up. Look, you talk about mental-health problems, that is at the core of so many of these mass shootings. We in Congress came together in a bipartisan way as part of the 21st Century Cures Act, just a year and a half ago, and passed a major overhaul of our mental-health system. It didn't get much attention, because it was very bipartisan.

But that bill -- and you just appointed an assistant secretary of mental health, which is a position created in that law. Let's make sure that the assistant secretary of mental health has the tools they need. They're tasked with finding all of these loopholes. How are people slipping through the cracks?

And I'll tell you the thing that makes me the most angry, is that when you see so many governmental institutions, federal and local, that broke down and allowed this kid not only to get a gun, but to let him slip through the cracks; when it wasn't just students, and believe me, there were students saying, we think he's a shooter, he said he was going to be a professional school shooter, and yet the FBI let him go.

You know this, the people that protected me and my other colleagues on that field, law enforcement, did their job that day. I appreciate that you gave the Medal of Freedom.

TRUMP: If you didn't have those two people, you wouldn't be here...

SCALISE: We'd be gone.

TRUMP: ... and 25 other people wouldn't be here right now.

SCALISE: And so when you see those breakdowns that is why you see so many millions of Americans that want firearms to defend themselves, not to use them for mass shooters, but actually to defend themselves and their communities, and that's obviously one of the balances that we have.

So the House did take action. Clearly, the Senate may have some issues with parts of the bill, but let's not just discard that; let's at least have a broader conversation, and we'll continue this.

TRUMP: OK, I think that's fine.

Could somebody -- Marsha, yes go.

BLACKBURN: Yes, Mr. President, first of all, I want to say thank you for saying let's go to the source of the problem. So many times we react to symptoms.

Picking up on what the whip said with the new assistant secretary of mental health, this is somewhere that yes indeed we need to be looking at the tools that they have, and looking at these young adults, individuals who have crossed that 18-year-old threshold and who within their family or their caregiver has access to those mental-health records, and how law enforcement has the ability to get that information from Children's Services. So many of these have records through their teenage years. They have been on a scheduled treatment (ph)... (CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: And John is working on that. That's part of what we're doing.

BLACKBURN: ... but, see, they...


BLACKBURN: ... and we need to have that visibility. And the House has wanted to fix that NICS system.

Another thing that has come up from some of the moms: I was a room mother when my kids were in school, and now, as a grandmother, I'm talking to a lot of young moms.

And they have said one of the things we need to do, as we review these issues, is look at entertainment and the video games -- the ratings system -- the movies, how things are approved and what children are being exposed to, and especially children that have some of these mental health issues. And they feel that has a role to play.

Now, some of my sheriffs...

TRUMP: I think that's a very important point.


TRUMP: The video games, the movies, the internet stuff is so violent. It's so incredible. I see it. I get to see things that you would be -- you'd be amazed at. I have a young -- very young son who -- I look at some of the things he's watching, and I say, "How is that possible?" And this is what kids are watching.

And I think you maybe have to take a look at it. You know, you rate movies for different things. Maybe you have to also rate them for terror, for what they're doing and what they're all about.

It's hard to believe that, at least for a percentage of -- maybe it's a small percentage of children -- this doesn't have a negative impact on their thought process. These things are really violent.


BLACKBURN: Some of these young moms have mentioned this: that they're very concerned about that exposure and children being desensitized to violence. So they would like that.

One of my sheriffs, Sheriff Eddie Farris, had a great idea. He's in Putnam County, Tennessee. And he said, as we talk about hardening the schools, you know, we have "read to me" programs in schools.

What about "protect me" programs that some of our FOP retirees would take the lead on and go in and, as a volunteer, help to protect those while we work through this issue of how your local, state and federal agencies are going to work together and find solutions for this? So those are things that my constituents are saying and would like to have raised. And they want solutions to them. And I appreciate the leadership.

TRUMP: Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thank you.


MAST: Mr. President, you're absolutely right. You can lead on this in a way that nobody else can, because, for all of those Americans out there that -- the Second Amendment is so critically important to them -- they believe you -- that you're not going to go into their home and take their firearms.

So you have a credibility that nobody else can bring to this. That's why you can lead. Maybe you've heard my call. You act when you see an opportunity to save lives.


TRUMP: ... we're all -- I mean, yeah, I'm going to lead. But we're all going to lead. We're going to get this done in a bipartisan manner. I'm not even worried about 60 votes. I really believe that 60 votes -- 60 percent, meaning -- is -- should be so easy. It should be -- should be 100 percent.

Chris, do you have something?

MURPHY: No, no, no. I just -- I think you underestimate the power of the gun lobby, so.

TRUMP: No, no -- I'll tell you what. The reason I had lunch with the NRA on Sunday -- and I told them. I said, "You've got to come over." I said, "Fellows, we got to do something."

And they do have great power. I agree with that. They have great power over you people. They have less power over me. I don't need it. I don't -- what do I need?

But they -- but I tell you, they are well meaning. And I said to them, very nice -- I said, "Fellows, we got to do something." We can't keep restricting and we can't keep -- we have to do what's right.

When it comes to mental health and other issues, I said, "We have to do what's right." And I'm telling you, I think they're there. I think they're there.

Some of you people are petrified of the NRA. You can't be petrified. They want to do what's right, and they're going to do what's right. I really believe that. I think it was a very good lunch.

Yes, sir?

RUTHERFORD: I want to give you a perspective from 41 years of law enforcement, 12 as a sheriff, riding the streets of Jacksonville, Florida. I can tell you, one of the things I learned in those 41 years in -- and a lot in this group (ph) can tell you, as well -- is security is always a multilayered approach.

So, as we talk about the background checks, who can buy a gun, who can not -- all of those things are important. And all of those are a piece of the -- are parts of the security that we can create for our country.

But know this, and you said it: All of that can break down and someone go into a gun-free zone and just kill at will.

TRUMP: Defenseless, John.

RUTHERFORD: Defenseless people.

TRUMP: Yes, defenseless.

RUTHERFORD: So number one, for security, from a law-enforcement perspective, is you have to have -- the only thing -- and this sounds cliche, but it's cliche because it's true -- the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun. And so you have to have those officers, or some armed security, at our schools.

Now, the issue is -- and we talk about -- those are areas where there are no guns. The reason I carry a concealed firearm everywhere I go is because I don't know where those gun-free zones are, that I may walking through at the mall, or at the doughnut shop, or wherever I might be. So that's why I carry concealed, so that I can protect myself, I can protect my family, who might be with me, and I can protect all of those around me who choose not to carry a firearm.

TRUMP: You're not allowed concealed in a gun-free zone.


TRUMP: So what do you do?

RUTHERFORD: You can't carry in those areas. And so you're -- you're ...

TRUMP: You're the only (inaudible).

RUTHERFORD: I mean, I'm at will like everybody else.

TRUMP: OK (inaudible).

RUTHERFORD: So -- so that's why the ...

TRUMP: They are the most dangerous places, gun-free zones. It's true.

RUTHERFORD: Exactly. And that's why we need to look at, I think ...

TRUMP: (Inaudible)

RUTHERFORD: ... going back to the concealed-carry issue of national reciprocity.

TRUMP: I just don't think you're going to get it approved everywhere. You're not going to get concealed carry approved.


TRUMP: Amy and Dianne ...

(UNKNOWN): You're right.

TRUMP: ... and a lot of other people -- people they consider -- they're never going to consider -- but people may consider it, but they're not going to consider it in this bill. All it's going to mean, if you ask ...

RUTHERFORD: But you (ph) don't want to do away with gun-free zones...

TRUMP: As far as I'm concerned, I would.

RUTHERFORD: ... gun free zones (inaudible) ...

TRUMP: And I would do it with the military. In fact I'm looking to get rid of gun-free zones in the military. We have military bases with gun free zones ...

RUTHERFORD: exactly.

TRUMP: ... and we had five incredible soldiers, three of whom were championship shooters, that were nowhere near their gun, and this whack-job walked in and killed all of them.

RUTHERFORD: Right, right.

TRUMP: And they were defenseless. And if they had their guns he would have been gone in a second.

RUTHERFORD: And every time I walk into someplace carrying concealed, I end a gun-free zone. Whether it's a restaurant, whether it's, you know, a grocery store...

TRUMP: I want to get rid of them on military bases to start, because you know what's happened there.

RUTHERFORD: (Inaudible)

TRUMP: All right.

RUTHERFORD: And let me put it like this, because ...

TRUMP: (Inaudible)

RUTHERFORD: ... the mental-health piece I checked is -- is critical for law enforcement. We have -- we actually take folks who are a danger to themselves or others, we Baker Act them -- in Florida it's called Baker Act. It's a crisis stabilization process. They're there for three days, 72 hours, they get stabilized, they get out, and we have to give them their guns back.

I tried not to do that one time, and I actually got sued and lost the case -- had to give the guns back and we got fined.

So the state of Florida has this bill that was mentioned earlier that the Senate just passed. It has these risk-protection orders built in the bill...

TRUMP: That's right.

RUTHERFORD: ... and those -- and there are some states that already had that, I believe. And I think those are going to be critical for law enforcement, to help take the guns out of the hands of ...

TRUMP: Risk protection.

RUTHERFORD: ... these individuals who we know should not be carrying. And then we need to make sure that those individuals get placed into the national background check system.

(UNKNOWN): And Mr. President, the vice president's state of Indiana has done a good job with that.

TRUMP: Yes, go ahead, Mike.

PENCE: Well, in the category you -- you spoke about it, Mr. President, gun violence restraining orders, and they're called -- California actually has a version of this. And I think you, in your meeting with the governors earlier this week, individually and as a group, we spoke about -- about the states taking steps, but the focus is to literally give families, and give local law enforcement additional tools if an individual is reported to be a potential danger to themselves or other.

Allow due process, so that no one's rights are trampled, but the ability to go to court, obtain an order, and then collect not only the firearms, but any weapons in the possession of that individual.

TRUMP: Or, Mike, take the firearms first, and then go to court. Because that's another system. Because a lot of times, by the time you go to court, it takes so long to go to court, to get the due process procedures -- I like taking the guns early. Like in this crazy man's case that just took place in Florida, he had a lot of firearms (ph). They saw everything -- to go to court would have taken a long time. So you could do exactly what you're saying, but take the guns first, go through due process second.

PENCE: We just think about -- we think about the tragedy in Sandy Hook, and ...

TRUMP: That's right.

PENCE: ... Adam Lanza's mother, who spoke to law enforcement, spoke to local officials. She was concerned over and over again. I know our colleagues from Connecticut lived this and saw it. But to literally give families some tools -- law enforcement -- as my state has done, as other states have done, to be able to take action to remove those weapons for either a set period of time, or -- or longer, to make sure that person can't be a threat.

TRUMP: I like that.


RUBIO: And just to add, obviously, that's a state law provision, and I know there's some people working on what we can do at the federal level to incentivize states to do this. But states are allowed to do it right now, and hopefully, Florida will do that here shortly.

And -- and it brings home this point, and I think the vice president alluded to it, and Congressman Rutherford just touched on it, as well. There are people here that tried to do something. They called. They -- they -- they called the FBI. They called the sheriff's office. But legally, they had no recourse to sort of get ahead of this and stop it, in terms of taking away of guns, and placing them in a facility, or some other measure with a court order to prevent them from being able to do this. And even if law enforcement had gone to see him, they would have been limited, ultimately, in their options, as well.

So this is an idea states can do, and I think we can -- there may be something we can do to incentivize it. I -- I know we've been talking to your office, and Senator Blumenthal, and others. But ultimately, states can do that now, the way multiple states have already done it. Hopefully, Florida will do it.

CORNYN: Mr. President?

TRUMP: (inaudible)

CORNYN: In the 21st century Cures bill Senator Murphy and I worked on, part of it involved the Mental Health and Safe Communities Act. We provided additional grants to jurisdictions to -- to use assisted outpatient treatment. So it's sort of a variation on what the vice president talked about. Adam Lanza's mother, if he wasn't compliant with his medications, wouldn't follow doctor's orders, and she needed some help, could go to court, a civil court, and get a court order that forced him to take his medication and follow his doctor's orders. Many people with mental illness could be, if they take their medication, if they're compliant, can function productively in society.

So there are some -- a variety of tools, and that's one that's already in law, in addition to what the states are doing.

TRUMP: So let me just ask this: Chris and John, are you better off having a one-off bill, or can you merge it into Joe and Pat's bill? Because I like that much better. Having a comprehensive bill -- Some people don't like the word "comprehensive" when they talk. I like the word "comprehensive". You know, they say, "Oh, that's a bad word, because it represents things." I mean, to me, I like the word "comprehensive". I'd rather have a comprehensive bill.

Can you merge yours into this bill, or would you rather have a separate, Fix-NICS bill?

CORNYN: Mr. President, the most important thing, you said at the outset, is that we act.

TRUMP: You have to act.

CORNYN: And we don't go home empty handed, so whatever we can do working together to act...

TRUMP: But you know what? It would be nice to act. Yeah, but it would really be nice to create something that's beautiful, that works.

MURPHY: I think -- I think we...

TRUMP: And you know the -- the biggest thing, Chris? The biggest surprise to me? Because I've only been doing this for two years, right? Three years, now. Time flies. But I've been here for a little more than a year. What surprises me more than anything else is that nothing's been done for all these years, because I really see a lot of common ground, whether it's Democrat, Republican. It's -- I'm so surprised. I'm sitting here, and I'm saying, "You know, there's a lot of commonality here. There's a lot of people that are agreeing with pretty much everything you guys are writing, and that you guys are writing. I don't understand why this hasn't happened. For the last 20 years, nothing's happened. So we're going to get it done.

MURPHY: I -- I think we can add anything to Fix-NICS that has 60 votes, and I think our argument is that background checks can be added to this if it has your support.

And Mr. President, I would just add, I hope we follow the data here, because the data is going to tell you -- You've talked a lot about safe schools, a lot about mental illness. The data tells you that America has a gun violence rate that is 20 times that of any other industrialized country in the world. But we don't have a higher mental illness rate. Our schools aren't less safe. We don't spend less money on law enforcement. What's different is that we have the loosest, most lax gun laws as a nation.

So I'm all for doing everything, but we should fix the mental illness system, because it's broken -- period, stop. Not because we think that it's going to solve the gun violence from happening.

TRUMP: Have to do it. We have to do it, fellows.

MURPHY: We've got -- The data tells us that the one thing that is different about the United States is our unbelievably loose gun laws, and I hope we follow it.

(UNKNOWN): Yeah, but if you don't have the background checks, you don't have the data.

MURPHY: That's right. No, that's right.

TRUMP: That's why I think they work together. I like it together better. But Joe, you have to fix mental illness. If somebody's mentally ill, right now, they can go out, and they can buy. You can't take it away. It's ridiculous. You've got to fix it, and you're going to fix it. I'm sure you're going to fix it. And I like a merger, because I think the merger works out better.

Chuck, were you going to say one thing?

GRASSLEY: Well, you're showing leadership through this meeting, and following what Marsha said about the incivility of our society, and the culture of our society, the thought came to my mind that maybe you could show leadership about all the violence we have out of Hollywood, and all these videos. If you watch -- you watch Fox News, probably, like I do. And every night, you see all these films about everybody being blown up. Well, just think of the impact that makes on young people. And get them in here, and preach to them like you're preaching to us.

TRUMP: Yeah. But actually, Fox News does a very good job, relatively speaking. But you're right. You're right.

GRASSLEY: I'd pick one channel.

TRUMP: No, it's very -- it's very violent. But the movies are violent, and the videos are violent beyond anything anybody's ever seen before, so...

GRASSLEY: You had governors telling you, this week, the same thing, that the culture of our society's got to change if you're going to stop this.

TRUMP: Yeah. I agree with that. I agree.


ESTY: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Mr. Vice president. I've been wearing a bracelet like this for more than five years. I was with Steve. We were elected the same time, and I was sitting with new member training when I got calls and texts about a school shooting, of -- what turned out to be 20 six- and seven-year-olds, and six educators in Newtown. So I haven't had a day I don't think about that, that Chris and I don't think about it. That's been our nightmare for our -- the people we represent. It's now Ted's nightmare, and it's now your nightmare.

TRUMP: So why didn't they do something about it when that happened?

ESTY: I...

TRUMP: You look -- I mean, when you look at Columbine, you look at so many of these horrible events. Why didn't they do something about it?

ESTY: I think people were (inaudible)...

TRUMP: Why didn't -- why didn't this group of people, plus others, and some have gone, and some are going to be here...

ESTY: We tried. Well, I think people tried, but I think your point is this: We're at a tipping point. We're at a tipping point, and why we are, I don't know. But I -- I think it's the students.

TRUMP: You know why we are?

ESTY: I think it's the students.

TRUMP: Elizabeth, you know why we are? Because a week will go by, another week, another week, another week, and all of a sudden, people are going to be on to other things. We can't let that happen.

ESTY: We have the power to change that, and...

TRUMP: But that's what's -- You know that's what's happened.

ESTY: So I think there are two things that we can do right now. I think, you know, the -- the Manchin-Toomey, which has a companion in the House, that's King-Thompson -- has 200 bipartisan co-sponsors -- 200. You only need 218 to pass. That is ready to go.

TRUMP: I think Congress is going to be fine. I really do. If we can come up with something that's very strong, very heavy with mental health, very heavy in every -- The background checks are so important. People are afraid to do background checks, because you're afraid of somebody. And you know what? You're going to be more popular if you do

But if you have a strong, good -- I don't care who's endorsing you, or not endorsing -- You're going to be more popular, if that's what you're into.

I'm not into popularity. I'm into getting something done that's good. I don't want to just get it done. We've got to get something good that's done. Let's do it properly.

Yes. John, real fast.

RUTHERFORD: Mr. -- Mr. President, let me -- Let me talk about how to get guns, keep guns out of the hands of good folk -- or bad folks.

One -- one of the issues is the gun show loophole that -- that everyone talks about. But it's also guns that are stolen out of cars, that are -- that -- that, you know, good gun owners are not storing properly. Stolen guns kill more people than guns that are bought legally. One way to prevent that is through a background check at the point of sale of every gun. FFL dealers, they do it. But I can buy a gun off the street from an individual that I've never met before, and nobody does the background check.

Here's what you do: You require a purchaser's permit at the point of sale of every gun in this country. At the point of sale, you have to have a buyer's permit. And the way you get your buyer's permit is, if I want to buy a gun from Senator Rubio, I go to an FFL dealer. I have my background check run. I get my buyer's permit. I take to it him, and he sells me his gun after I show him my permit. If...

TRUMP: I would think the NRA would love this.

RUTHERFORD: Now listen. If I don't have my permit -- If I don't have my permit, it's -- it's against the law for him to sell it to me, and it's against the law for me to buy it. Now, everybody's thinking, "Well, heck, nobody's going to do that, and who'd going to know?" Then what happens is law enforcement has the opportunity to go into the streets and buy and sell guns from people who are in there, buying and selling guns right now. And we can actually make arrests and get those guys off the street who are selling guns illegally -- well, they're not illegal sales, but they're selling them to the guys that probably are illegal (inaudible)

TRUMP: Yeah, but the problem is you have a real black market. They don't worry about anything. They don't worry about...

RUTHERFORD: That's right.

TRUMP: ... anything that you're saying.

RUTHERFORD: That's right, but they...

TRUMP: They sell a gun, and the buyer doesn't care, and the seller. And that's one of the problems we are all going to have. And you have that problem with drugs.

RUTHERFORD: But they (inaudible)

TRUMP: You make the drugs illegal, and they come -- well, you've never had a problem like this. We're fighting it hard, but you've never had a problem like this.

So you have the same problem with guns. You'll have a lot of great people go out and register -- do all sorts of things. But you have a black market where they don't even think about registering, or they're not going to be looking at Joe and Pat's bill. They couldn't care less about it. And we have to be very strong on that. I think you can have provisions on that, too -- big, big penalties, strong penalties.

John, you've got to finish up.

RUTHERFORD: Well, I was just going to say, the purchaser's permit allows law enforcement to then go into that black market and buy and sell guns, and make arrests of the folks who are in there doing it illegally.

TRUMP: We've got to be very tough on the black market.