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New Name Surface in Russia Probe; Russia Launch Satan 2 ICBM; First Day for President Trump Without Trusted Aide Hope Hicks; Will POTUS Name Dan Scavino White House Communications Director; Student David Hogg Dismisses Ingraham's Apology; Baton Rouge Officer Who Shot Alton Sterling Fired, Videos Released; CNN Heroes. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired March 30, 2018 - 22:00   ET


[22:00:30] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

Breaking news in the widening Russia investigation and the name we've never heard before makes us wonder, what else does special counsel Robert Mueller know that we don't? CNN is learning the team detained and questions Ted Malloch, an informal Trump campaign adviser in 2016. Malloch says investigators asked him about Republican operative Roger Stone and about Julian Assange and WikiLeaks and they subpoenaed him to appear before Mueller's grand jury in April.

What does this new development tell us about where Mueller's probe is headed next? We will talk about that. Plus, President Trump increasingly isolated inside his own White House, moving trusted aide Dan Scavino, his social media director into the small office near the president's desk. The space occupied until yesterday by Hope Hicks, Trump's long-time aide who longer works in the West Wing.

And Moscow flexing its muscle for the U.S. and all the world to see. Russia's defense minister releasing video of a test launch of its new intercontinental ballistic missile nicknamed Satan 2. Interesting.

A lot of ground to cover tonight. I want to bring in now CNN senior political commentator David Axelrod, a former senior adviser to President Obama. David, good to have you on. Good evening.


LEMON: So, Robert Mueller's investigation is moving ahead full steam ahead. We are now learning a new name we haven't heard before, Trump's campaign adviser Ted Malloch, detained by the FBI at Boston's Logan Airport as he returned from London. Malloch says investigators asked him questions about Trump confidant Roger Stone and WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange. Where is this investigation going? Do you know?

AXELROD: You know, what's interesting to me is not where it's going but how much it's reinforcing all those stories that we've known for a long time. For example, Roger Stone, how did he seem to have the bead on what WikiLeaks was going to do?

That's obviously something that Robert Mueller wants to know. And he is talking to people who may have insight into that. Malloch in addition to a relationship with Stone, also he is close to Nigel Farage, the leader of the U.K. in Britain who is a supporter of Donald Trump who also has some ties Assange. So that's one element of it.

We know with the filing of Rick Gates -- about Rick Gates and about his ongoing contacts with a Russian operative. He is looking at that issue of, was there a pipeline between the Trump campaign and the Russians.

So, what is very clear is that some of these matters that people have been dismissing as not relevant as they focused on this obstruction of justice issue are very much still under examination by the special counsel.

LEMON: David, let's switch gears now. A senior administration official says some aides to the president were surprised by the President Trump's comments that the U.S. will be withdrawing from Syria as soon, especially given what he said in the past. Watch this.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: One of the things I think you've noticed about me is militarily, I don't like to say where I'm going and what I'm doing.

I don't want to telegraph what I'm doing or thinking. I'm not like other administrations where they say we're going do this in four weeks. That doesn't work that way. I don't want to be one of these guys and say, yes, here is what we're going to do. I don't have to do that.


LEMON: So, David, the question is, isn't this exactly what the president said he'd never do telegraph military moves?

AXELROD: Well, what's interesting is the one group of people he didn't telegraph his move to with members of his own administration who seemed to be completely surprised by what he said.

Listen, Don, we've talked about, we've talked about this I think last week. There's something going on with the president. I think he has come to the conclusion that his instincts got him to where he is. He is tired of being bridled. He's tired of being told what he can and can't do. He is winging it. And he went out there in front of the crowd and he did his sort of improve act.

And you know, it plays very well. Remember, Donald Trump as a candidate was an anti-interventionist. He was not for putting more troops anywhere. So he was going back to basics in front of that crowd. But the fact is, he did send more troops to Syria. There is, you know, there is an ongoing operation there. It is a delicate time. It does involve Iran and Russia and a very volatile region.

And to just go up there and wing it and surprise your own people is a stunning thing to do. He also sort of improbably suggested that he wasn't going to sign the trade agreement that he reached with South Korea that the administration had been touting all week because he was now holding it as a negotiating tool, as leverage he said.

[22:05:07] Apparently, people didn't realize he was going to say that either. This is a heck of a way to run a government. And so, yes, he is in one way signaling something that he might do. We don't know if he actually will follow through on Syria. But the most disturbing thing is that he is not telegraphing anything or discussing anything apparently with his own team. And that can only lead to catastrophe down the line.

LEMON: Let's talk about Russia now because Russia stoked more tensions, David, today with the launch of the Satan 2 missile. It's capable of carrying a dozen or more nuclear warhead and can reach anywhere in the U.S. By the way, Vladimir Putin brags it's invincible. What message is he sending to the U.S.?

AXELROD: Well, clearly, you know, he is menacing not just the U.S. but the world. He is feeling emboldened. He is feeling emboldened in part, I think because the president has not been very tough on him to say the least.

Now what was done this week in terms of expelling the diplomats was a real gesture on the part of the U.S. It was done in concert with the rest of the world, which was a tough move. And this, in part, may have been a response from Putin to that.

But you know, ultimately, there are whole cards the president has like imposing the sanctions that Congress has authorized against the oligarchs who are close to Putin, that would really strike some fear in his heart.

President has declined do that. And again, it remains a mystery as to why someone who is so bellicose and so willing to challenge people large and small wherever he finds them has such a hard time standing up to Vladimir Putin.

LEMON: Yes. David, thank you. I want you to stand by because I want to bring in now Congressman Ted Lieu, a California Democrat who sits on the judiciary committee. Congressman, thank you so much for joining us on this Easter Friday or this Good Friday.

Listen, Mueller -- Mueller moving in on another campaign adviser. We have been talking about Ted Malloch, he is the FBI -- the FBI is obtaining, I should say, and questioning him this week. What does this tell you about the investigation?

REP. TED LIEU (D), CALIFORNIA: The fact that the press and the public keep learning about new names shows that the FBI and special counsel Mueller have a very expensive investigation. They know a lot that we don't know. And they're investigating not just obstruction of justice but in this case it's straight up collusion.

Did the Trump campaign know that Russia had these e-mails of Hillary Clinton? Did they use that when they campaigned? If so, then that is collusion.

LEMON: Malloch said Mueller's team seemed to focus on Roger Stone and also asked whether he had ever visited WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange. Does this confirm what you know? And what does that indicate to you?

LIEU: So we know, for example, that Trump campaign officials had advance knowledge of the fact that Russia had Hillary Clinton's e- mails. George Papadopoulos had this knowledge. Roger Stone seem to have that knowledge.

And what Russia did is they used WikiLeaks to weaponize these e-mails and then distribute them across America to hurt Secretary Clinton, help Donald Trump. And if any Trump campaign official was involved in that, that is straight up conspiracy. That is collusion, and those are federal crimes.

LEMON: So, Congressman Lieu, we're also learning the attorney general rebuffed Republican leaders who wanted him to appoint a second special counsel to investigate how the DOJ and the FBI handled investigations related to Hillary Clinton and a former campaign adviser. Did Jeff Sessions make the right call?

LIEU: He absolutely did. So the House republicans seem very intent on trying to impeach Hillary Clinton with these investigations. But guess what? She's not the president. She's a private citizen. We should be focused on the president, did he engage in misconduct, did his campaign engage in misconduct? The Republicans are just trying to distract from the special counsel investigation.

LEMON: Sessions is apparently leaving the door open to another special counsel. He asked Obama appointed U.S. attorney to work with the DOJ's inspector general to determine whether a second special counsel is necessary, saying, and this is a quote. "I am confident that Mr. Huber's review will indicate a full, complete and objective evaluation of these matters in a manner that is consistent with the law and the facts."

So if the attorney general appoints a second special counsel after relying on input from John Huber, would you support that?

LIEU: I would. John Huber is known to be a man of his word. He was appointed both by a Democratic president as well as a Republican president. And I will wait for his review. If he says a second special counsel should be appointed, I would support that.

LEMON: I've got to ask you about your colleague Congresswoman Elizabeth Esty, her decision to continue to employ her chief of staff Tony Baker after she learned detail allegations of physical abuse against his now ex-girlfriend.

[22:10:04] She kept him on for some three months helped him to with a positive recommendation letter and signed a legal document preventing her from discussing why he left. She's from Connecticut and the Hartford Courant is calling for her to resign. She's refusing. What do you think should happen in this case?

LIEU: What her chief of staff did was completely unacceptable. Employees should not be threatened, whether they are on Capitol Hill or in the private sector. Congresswoman Esty has apologized for her handling of this situation based on the one article I read so far, on this issue, I am not calling for her resignation. But that is her decision. We will wait to see what more facts may come out.

LEMON: Congressman Ted Lieu, thank you. I appreciate your time. Happy Easter to you.

LIEU: Thank you.

LEMON: Back now with David Axelrod. David, I've got a question for you. I wanted to ask you -- I'm glad you are back. So, today, also the first day of the Trump presidency without Hope Hicks. And it doesn't look like a replacement communications director will be announced any time soon. Is that a mistake? And what impact do you think will that have on White House operations?

AXELROD: Well, I think it is a mistake. Although I think her role was more important in terms of her ability to talk to the president and in ways that other people apparently could not. And that will be missed greatly. But every White House should have a communications director, should have a functioning chief of staff. And the kinds of things that presidents need to run a very complex organization. It's not the Trump organization. And the president is going to discover that very quickly.

LEMON: So, David, I want to ask you about the interview you did for your show with your friend. We talked about it a little bit last week.


LEMON: Sir Charles Barkley.

AXELROD: Yes, sir.

LEMON: David, you got his thoughts on the president. Listen first, and then we will talk about it.


CHARLES BARKLEY, FORMER NBA PLAYER: Listen, I never talk bad about the president. I'm going to be factual. I have never been more angry and disgusted at this situation than I am now. This turmoil every single day, the tweeting, the hiring and firing, like, dude, I'm blessed and you are, too. It really is not going to have a big affect on our life. But I actually have humanity. I want everybody to have a good life.


LEMON: He does not hold back.

AXELROD: No. He doesn't. That's the great thing about Charles, he speaks his mind. Now much like Trump he is a much different person. But he is utterly authentic. He says what's on his mind. And he had a lot of thoughts about a lot of things, many of which would surprise people, Don. I really hope people -- if they are watching the final four, I hope they record the show or else watch it when it's on tomorrow night at 7.

LEMON: Don't underestimate yourself, David Axelrod. I'm sure they will be watching.

AXELROD: I'm not. I'm just sober about the Loyola Ramblers. I think a lot of people are going to want to watch them as a Chicago in.

LEMON: Absolutely. Hey, David, we always appreciate it. And we're going to be watching tomorrow. Thank you so much.

AXELROD: All right, Don. Happy Easter.

LEMON: Yes. Happy Easter. Be check to check out The Axe Files with David Axelrod tomorrow night at 7 Eastern right here on CNN.

And just ahead, more on our breaking news coverage. Federal investigators detaining and questioning Ted Malloch. Malloch is a former Trump campaign adviser, asking him about Republican operative Roger Stone and WikiLeaks. Is Stone is a key focus of Robert Mueller's investigation possible collusion? I'm going to ask my national security expert about that, next.


LEMON: Breaking news tonight. Special counsel Robert Mueller's team reaching yet again into a 2016 Trump campaign, into the campaign questioning a man who says he was an informal adviser.

I want to talk about this now with CNN national security analyst Juliette Kayyem, Juliette is a former official at the Department of Homeland Security, and national security analyst Steve Hall, retired of chief CIA Russian operations, and Michael Moore, a former U.S. attorney.

Good evening, everyone. Steve, let's start with you. We learned a new name today that wasn't on any anyone's radar, that name is Ted Malloch, a former Trump campaign adviser. Why was the FBI asking him about Roger Stone and WikiLeaks?

STEVE HALL, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes. You know, there's this continuing issue of the connection between Roger Stone and WikiLeaks, because Wiki -- because of the role -- the unique role that WikiLeaks played in disseminating the stolen information from the DNC.

So, I can only assume there's a connection there. And my only knowledge of this guy is that he seems to be a deep state guy which always for me calls into question his credibility. But you know, Mueller is one running the investigation and thinks it's important to talk to him. So that's good enough for me.

LEMON: Yes. Juliette, the FBI asked Malloch if he had ever been to the Ecuadorian embassy. That's where WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange has been hold up for nearly six years. Does the FBI think Malloch was an intermediary of some sort?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: It sounds like it. I have to say in the CNN reporting, that was the one sentence that stood out of me because it was so specific. It wasn't what, you know, was your relationship to the Trump campaign? What did you know, what did Roger Stone know?

It was literally, did you enter the building which makes me think they either know he -- know he enter the building because one has to assume they were watching it all the times, or someone else entered the building and had a meeting with Julian Assange and they're just trying to figure out what he knows.

He claims -- he said something publically that he did not enter the building. And so, you know, will this question his credibility. But with that one sentence that I think there's a lot of meaning behind that it was so specific about a visit to Julian Assange.

LEMON: So, it was Roger Stone, Michael, who claimed multiple times that he had contact with Julian Assange and seemed to know ahead of time about the hack of the DNC and John Podesta. He later denied both. Do you think Stone is key to making the collusion case?

MICHAEL MOORE, PARTNER, POPE MCGLAMRY: You know, I think he certainly may be a part of it. Let me tell you these interviews and these investigations, and certainly when we talk about Malloch or Stone, these things don't happen just sort of willy dilly, off the cuff.

[22:20:03] These agents when they come and talk to you they basically have some idea where they're going. They may already know or typically do know the answers to the questions that they're asking you. And this is a chance for them to feel you out as a potential witness, is a chance to feel you out if you are going to be truthful as things go on, if there's places they can put pressure on you. They sued to know the answers before they get there.

What it tells me though, is just like we're talking about Roger Stone, it also kind of tells me we might be talking a little bit about little Don. That is, you know, he is the one that was involved with the Russian meeting in Trump tower.

He is the one that had the information shared from -- he didn't disclose the meeting. That pushes it back towards the events on air force one to do a cover-up. That to me seems a likely path that Mueller may be exploring right now.

LEMON: Little don. All right. We'll go with that. So, Steve, they questioned Malloch for an hour, confiscated his cell phone and handed him a subpoena on the spot to appear before the grand jury. Is that an indication that they think that he is holding - holding out on them? Or is it a tactic?

HALL: It may be a little bit of both. I mean, obviously, whenever you relieve somebody of their electronics, you know, you are looking for -- you're looking for a trail, you're looking for things that they might not perhaps admit to immediately. It's also has a psychological impact.

But you know, getting back to Juliette's comment, it's very interesting there's been a number of questions as to how Julian Assange from inside that embassy was able to get the information in and out aside from electronics because, you now, there was an obvious assumption that his electronics were being monitored.

And there's a question as to whether or not there was actually a person, a mule who, you know, carried a thumb drive or something in and out. And I wonder whether or not that is also what they're trying to get into in and try to find out whether, you know, who it was who was actually doing this.

LEMON: And so, Michael, Malloch issued a statement saying that he was -- he was an informal adviser to Trump. Had only met Stone three times and never visited the Ecuadorian embassy. And this, he said, "What can they want from me? A policy walk and philosopher defender of Trump. I am not an operative. Have no Russia contacts. And aside from appearing on air and in print often to defend and congratulate our president, have done nothing wrong. What message does that send?"

So, apparently, that didn't satisfy the FBI. What more will they be asking him?

MOORE: Well, I think if you look at his statement on its face, even where he says he has had no Russian contacts, I mean, half the administration now apparently has said that. We know that's just not true. So I don't put much credibility in what he is saying at this point.

Where they go with him -- again, I think it's likely that they already know the answer to these questions. Maybe he is a mule in and out, or maybe he's got information that Stone is a mule in and out, whatever the case may be. They probably know the answer, but they're just looking to see, can they use this guy, can they move him in the direction of being a cooperating witness to testify or a corroborating witness that they can use to back up information that they developed somewhere else.

LEMON: Juliette, aside from Stone there are the ties -- all these ties -- check out your screen. This is to all these ties, right. We don't have -- we don't have all night so I won't read them all, right. The contacts go on and on. How can the president possibly say his campaign had nothing to do with Russia when these links are apparent on their face, Juliette?

KAYYEM: Yes. You just, you can't rationally look at this and say that the Trump campaign had nothing to do with Russia. Because remember, that is where they began. So we have to -- that is now just a joke of an explanation by all of them.

So the question now is, as we all know, is what was the extent, nature, duration and who within the Trump campaign was directing it? We're getting very close to Trump himself now. I we've got Don Junior in the room. We've got Jared doing all sorts of funky stuff.

So this is -- this is -- we're there. Like, I mean, we keep waiting for when will we know. I'm looking at this. We're there. And you know, yes, there's questions of intent, there's questions of direction. But what we do know, just stepping aside and looking back, you know,

is this the Trump campaign was infiltrated and had contacts with Russians for over -- you know, in to -- you know, beginning in 2015. And it wasn't just these hangers on and losers. It was in Trump tower.

Intent and consequences is something that Mueller is looking at now. But I'm done sort of, you know, pretending that I don't -- I haven't been pretending but you just have to begin with the facts. And the facts are just telling you this was a campaign that was so cozy with Russia that Trump himself or others around him were aware of that -- aware of it and possibly compromised by it. And that's the question.

LEMON: Juliette, Steve, Michael, happy Easter, and happy Passover. I appreciate you joining us. Thank you so much.

[22:25:01] HALL: Thank you, Don.

KAYYEM: Thank you.

LEMON: When we come back, we're going to tell you who's moved into Hope Hicks' former office. If he has a shot at her job and what his chief qualification could be.


LEMON: Today begins a new chapter for President Trump. This is the first day that Hope Hicks, his trusted aide who was White House communications director is not at her side. Her office was steps away from the Oval Office.

Here to discuss now, CNN political analyst, Ryan Lizza, CNN political commentators Matt Lewis and Alice Stewart. Happy Friday.



LEMON: Happy holiday Friday. What is it? Good Friday.

STEWART: Good Friday.

LEMON: So, Ryan, Hope is gone. Hope Hicks, that is. And sources tell CNN the White House--


LIZZA: Not hope in general.

LEMON: Yes. Well, it depends on who you ask. So the White House -- the White House may not even fill her job and aides are worried that the president will unravel without her. What are you hearing, Ryan?

[22:29:49] LIZZA: I mean, I think the big picture of all of the recent changes, you know, Hope Hicks leaving, John Kelly being sort of neutered, emasculated, Larry Kudlow moving into the economic adviser job, and Bolton, the sort of pundits, the sort of Fox pundit coming on is what you are seeing is the end of the era where they tried to have a White House -- a traditional White House with a strong Chief of Staff and the beginning of a new era where Trump is a little more confident in picking the personnel that he wants. And he is making these decisions almost unilaterally, it seems.

And you are getting a whole new staffing structure that is much more similar to the way Trump ran things in his own business empire. And that is individuals reporting right into him and rather than through a strong chief of staff. You know, we have seen White Houses that have set up that process before. Ford, White House tried it. The Carter, White House tried it, because after Nixon, a lot of people blamed Watergate on having a Chief of Staff that, that was too strong. And both of those Presidents abandoned it, because it ended in disaster. So that is the big picture structure.

LEMON: So, what are you saying about the chief of staff there, Ryan? What are you saying?

LIZZA: No, I just -- I just think Trump does not like having what all the manage --

LEMON: Are you saying that Kelly is persona non grata?

LIZZA: I just -- he is -- the job -- he was brought in to be a traditional strong Chief of Staff. And we know from all the reporting about this White House that Trump just doesn't like that. He wants to be able to reach down and micromanage the White House. He wants to be his own communications Director, his own Chief of Staff. He wants to run things. And he obviously has a lot more confidence now to pick personnel. And during the transition in 2016, he was listening to recommendations of outsiders. Just to take one instance, you know, Tillerson was a recommendation by Condoleezza Rice and Steven have -- they sort of big league Republican pompously people, that era is over. Trump is running his own White House. And, you know, the White House -- I think we can expect the White House to get more dysfunctional with all the changes.

LEMON: That sounds like king, dictator or monarch to me. What is your --

LIZZA: Well, it's his White House, he can do what he wants. Right?

LEMON: I know, but -- come on.

STEWART: Don, what I -- what I think the most important thing in his mind and what the next question will be was, who is the President going to use to fill Hope Hicks' office?

LEMON: Is that Dan Scavino?

STEWART: (inaudible) Director, he is someone that is being talked about, but someone that is more of a Presidential confidant. Someone he can trust, someone who has been in this from the very beginning, who is -- who is like the keeper of his secrets and someone who has been with him for a while and can be more of the person that he turns to for, how is this playing out in the press, how is this playing out in congress, how was -- how do I need to proceed on this issue? In terms of her role as Coms-Director, this is a different presidency. This is a different President. I expect and what I'm hearing is we there are going to be a restructuring com-shop. Have someone who was overall communications Director, but also have someone who deals with strategic coms, someone who deals with digital -- someone who deals with the press as -- Sarah Sanders.

LEMON: Alice, that is your -- that your -- that's what you do. You are a communications person. That is when I first met you, you were a communications person. I mean, is this -- is this realistic to have one person to deal with all of these jobs? What's wrong with having traditional roles in the White House, that's your expertise?

STEWART: This restructuring in terms of, look, there's so many different ways now compared to 2008 or 2000 -- digital media, social media, mainstream media to get the message out. And my understanding, they're going to restructure things to fit this President and how he operates. And I expect we are going to see different titles, different roles, and different people in those positions.

We need the press, some to deal with the immediate impact, incoming from the media on a day to day, hour to hour, minute by minute basis and then a Communications Director to look at big picture, long-term strategy, where he can lay out his agenda and get his message across for his policies.

LEMON: Who is going to be the person that says, OK, well, when we decide something the President goes out and says something else, you are going to be the guy or gal who, you know, takes that job? Who wants that job? Maybe it's Dan Scavino, Matt?


LEMON: So, jump in here, he -- by the way, Dan Scavino is the President's Social Media Director. Moved into Hope Hicks' desk this week. We have yet to see if he is offered the job, but the aides calls Scavino-Trump's mini me. He started Trump's caddie back in the days. I mean, he is the right guy, what's going on with Dan Scavino, here?

LEWIS: Well, I think there's a few things going on here. One, as I think, Alice and Ryan, both correctly have talked about is how -- you know, anybody who had an independent silo of power is basically being taken out. So, if you dare to have some sort of intellectual honesty, you serve at the pleasure of the president by -- maybe you might question some of the things he did, and H.R. McMaster, you can get on the list, it's like the God -- the end of the Godfather, right? They are all going to be -- they are all being taken out.

LIZZA: Which one? One, two, or three?

LEWIS: There's only two god fathers as I know.

LEMON: Maybe it's good fellas, instead of the godfather.

[22:35:00] LEWIS: Godfather III doesn't exist, but anyway. LEMON: I know. Maybe Good Fellas', go on.

STEWART: Don, one thing, Don, you mentioned Scavino being his caddie. If you look at, one of the caddie do, they carry the bag. They fix the divots. They rake the bunkers, but also they help tell the professional, here's how far you are from the pin, here is how you are playing out in the field, here's where you stand the roll and I think Dan Scavino, has that rule, he can tell the President, look, here is what you need to do long term. Here's how all this is being proceed and he takes all of those things, you know -- the analogy of a caddie has done and he can do that.

LEWIS: Alice, one thing I want to say --

LIZZA: With all due respect --


LEMON: The caddie also lies about your score and tells you that you are great.


And you're prettier than everybody else.

LEVINE: This is the other thing, the other sort of pattern here. I will go quick, is -- Trump is now replacing people with these longtime loyalist friends, right. So, Dan Scavino, was his caddie. He had -- yesterday, Donald Trump's personal White House physician is now going to, you know, probably head the V.A., you know, this huge bureaucracy.

LIZZA: yes. Its either -- it's long-term -- it's longtime sick of pins or people who recently had gone on TV, were obsequious in their acclaim for Trump, like the Fox and Friends that is hired.

LEWIS: Remember that kid -- remember that kid who was pushing the lawn mower, that 11-year-old.


LIZZA: He is going to replace Kelly soon, right?


LEWIS: New head of Department of Interior.

LIZZA: Just a thought, what Alice said, if we --

LEMON: Quick, quick.

LIZZA: No disrespect to Dan Scavino. He seems like a lovely gentleman. If we are relying on Donald Trump's former caddie to be the person that is going to stand up to the President and tell him not to do things that are stupid --

LEMON: Oh Yes. LIZZA: -- we are in far more trouble than I think anyone imagined.

LEMON: Yes. Welcome to reality, Ryan. I mean, come on. and listen, I'm no -- I'm not hating on Dan Scavino, but just go back -- just scroll through his Twitter feed, if you will, if anyone wants to, before some of it is deleted. Maybe he won't, but just scroll through.

LIZZA: I think he is proud of it. I don't think he will delete any of it.

LEMON: Well, then, there you go. Don't go anywhere, I am going to keep you guys. We'll be right back.


LEMON: Fox News host, Laura Ingraham, has a big problem on her hands. Back with me now, Ryan Lizza, Matt Lewis, and Alice Stewart. I think, Alice, today we talk about this a little bit earlier of the week, but listen, Matt, 11 advertisers have now jumped ship from Laura Ingraham's show after she mocked, shooting survivor, David Hogg. You know, she apologized, but Hogg did not accept. How is this battle shaping up in your mind? Who has the upper hand here, you think?

LEWIS: Oh, he has the upper hand, but let me just say, I think this is an unfortunate event. As somebody who has -- I've been advising people on my side of the aisle. So people on the right. I've been telling them things for years now, things like, go talk to Town Hall meetings, go talk where people don't agree with you. And I've been saying, you should apologize, if you do something wrong, if you make a mistake, you should fess up and be honest about it and admit you made a mistake.

And in the past week, David Hogg, has basically proven me wrong on two occasions, right? So, first, Marco Rubio, who went to this town hall meeting who has proposed modest gun reform, you know, bills, you know, reforms, David Hogg gets up on stage at this rally and attacks Marco Rubio basically saying, he has blood on his hands, right. By the way, he also went after a (inaudible), he went after John McCain, a guy who was in the Hanoi Hilton for five years for getting NRA money. Then Laura Ingraham, said something which I think is wrong and stupid, but she apologizes, right? What does he do? Does he take her apology? Does he gracious -- does he accept it? No. What is -- what lesson does this teach Republicans and conservatives? The lesson that Donald Trump has always lived by. The lesson that he learned from his mentor, which is this. Never admit you are wrong. Never apologize.

LEMON: Maybe it's that he doesn't believe their bull.

LEWIS: When somebody apologizes to --

LEMON: I don't see what -- I don't see what John McCain and being in the Hanoi Hilton has to do with his stance on gun control. You can respect -- you can respect John -- Hang on --

LEWIS: John McCain -- John McCain -- John McCain is right now -- LEMON: -- let me finish. You can respect what John McCain did and

his service. But that doesn't, he is still -- he still a politician that is a leader. You can criticize his policies. And I'm sure he would want you to do that.

LEWIS: John McCain right now is fighting for his life.

LEMON: Absolutely.

LEWIS: He has -- he had some bad health as of late. He served our country, is an American hero. And this high school kid is basically trolling him on Twitter at this moment. I just don't think --

LEMON: He shouldn't do that. He shouldn't do that. If John McCain got it wrong on gun control, and that is another issue, but he shouldn't be trolling John McCain. I understand what you are saying. He said, why do you take so many money from the NRA? He didn't say that --

LEWIS: It was --

LEMON: He didn't say, I only respect people when they are not captured. He said, why did you take so much money from the NRA?


LEMON: I think that's different and age if he is --

LEWIS: If he accepts Laura Ingraham's apology.


LEWIS: When people apologize when they somethings --

LEMON: Not, if the apology -- if it's an honest, real apology, yes. But if you apologize and it's not a real apology, you say, oh in the spirit of holy week, why do you have to insist its holy week. --

LEWIS: I tell you what the lesson is, Don. The people that I fight -- the people that I fight on the right --

LEMON: Just say I'm sorry, I was wrong.

LEWIS: The people that I fight on the right, the people that I fight say, Matt, you know, you are a cox-servative, you're a wimp, the lesson -- you got to fight the left. Never admit you make a mistake. Never apologize, because the left will never (inaudible).

LEMON: Maybe it wasn't sincere. Maybe they don't believe it was sincere, and then maybe he thinks if he accepts her apology, it will go back to status quo, she will continue to attack him, the NRA will continue to use them to make money to sell more guns. So, maybe this kid knows something that we don't know. Maybe there is --

LEWIS: He is driving polarization. He is creating division. LEMON: Maybe he is.

LEWIS: We need people who are peace makers who bring people together.

LEMON: OK. I see what you are saying. I see what you are saying.

STEWART: I think here is the main problem here is that Laura Ingraham is very opinionated. She always speaks her mind. And she is welcome to do that. And certainly, she does so with her new outlet on another network.

[22:45:09] The problem is when you go after a kid. Granted, this kid has a huge megaphone.

LEMON: I got five seconds Alice, I'm serious Alice, I do.

STEWART: Yes, and the thing is, just don't attack kids, especially one that is gone through what he has been through.

LEMON: OK. I appreciate it. Thank you. We are out of time. We have a lot to get to. Thank you very much, everyone.

LEWIS: Thanks, Don.

STEWART: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: We will be right back.


LEMON: Breaking news in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Police officer fired today after an investigations of the shooting death of Alton Sterling, in 2016 and officials are leasing this graphic video of the incident. Police encounter Alton Sterling outside a convenient store and police body cameras captured what happened. As I said, one officer has been fired, a second officer suspended. Officials say no charges will be filed.

Also today in Sacramento, California. An independent autopsy shows that Stephon Clark was shot by police officers eight times six of those wounds were in his back. So, when you consider both these stories, and the many, many others like them, still surprised that a group of students from Parkland Florida, students of color are concerned about the prospect of arming more police in our schools. And what that might mean for their safety.

Joining me tonight are two students from Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, Kai Koerber and Tyay-Amoy Roberts. Thank you so much for joining us, you guys are doing OK?


[22:50:00] TYAY-AMOY ROBERTS, STUDENT, MARJORY STONEMAN DOUGLAS HIGH SCHOOL: Yes, absolutely. LEMON: So, I'm going to start with you, Tyay, you know, you and other

minority students, you held a press conference on Wednesday. And I just want to read what you said. You said the Black Lives Matter Movement has been addressing the topic since the murder of Trevon Martin, in 2012. And we have never seen this kind of support for our cause. We surely do not feel that the lives or voices of minorities are valued as much as those of our white counterparts. Why do you feel that way?

ROBERTS: Definitely, because of the amount of media presence that has been present since what has happened to our school on Valentine's Day. I have never seen that kind of support for Black Lives Matter after -- after somebody, you know, the same color as us, when their -- when their lives were taken, when we go to these rallies, the Never Again rally had so many people. And it spanned across continents. When we have Black Lives Matter rallies, if they are covered at all, they are covered in a negative light, in a lot of the time. And you did not see that usually with Never Again unless it was from someone who thinks that we are anti-gun.

LEMON: Yes, but do you -- just to be clear, and I think that, you know, this may get lost on some people you support Never Again, but what you are saying is, that you would like as much support as possible for your cause as well, correct?

ROBERTS: Definitely. I say this all the time. I am part of Never Again, you know, I am part of this movement. We are not a separate group. We are not trying to separate ourselves. The fact that I am part of Never Again, and that I need everybody to know that we exist within this movement as well.

LEMON: What do you want the public to know, Kai?

KOERBER: Well, I'd like the public to know that, you know, our school is in fact 11 percent black. And that, you know, we come from a very diverse spectrum of people. So, it's not just one demographic that has a voice at our school.

LEMON: Kai, since the shooting, you say the increased police presence has created new stress for you on campus. Why is that?

KOERBER: Well, just the other day, as a matter of fact, I was stopped by -- I was actually singled out by one of the BSO and I was told I had to re-enter -- to re-enter the school through the office and that if I made it there, if I made it through the office, then I would be OK to come back in. And this is under the assumption that as his words that I wasn't the next school shooter.

LEMON: Do you think other students will feel safer? I mean, how do you explain to those students, why you don't feel the same way, Tyay or Kai, whoever wants to answer that.

ROBERTS: Right, well we do know that -- that the police officers inside and outside of a school setting disproportionately target people of color, black people specifically. We know that inside of schools, black people usually get harsher punishments. And get punished more often. Detention, suspensions, expulsions, things like that, statistically. And so when you bring these police officers who are -- who people of color are already wary of them and very aware of into the setting where we are just trying to learn, you open -- you open the door up for discrimination, you open a door up for racial profiling as Kai gave an example of. And you open the door for, you know, the potentially detrimental situations. And for that is what we're very aware of and trying to show our counterparts.

LEMON: Yes. Listen, Kai, you mentioned that African-Americans make up 11 percent of the student body at Stoneman Douglas, and I just want some final words here on how gun violence affects students of color. How does it affect you?

KOERBER: Well, obviously this is definitely something that our community has been dealing with for generations at this point. So, you know, we feel like that if it's -- you know, down to a point of our right almost to be a part of the conversation of gun control, and of gun regulation, because our community suffered from it for generations as I said.

LEMON: Yes, well listen, I appreciate your time. I understand you know the circumstances surrounding this. And that you guys feel that you have a unique voice and insight into this and you would like to have more input and more attention. That is certainly understandable. Thank you so much for joining us, OK?

KOERBER: Thank you.

ROBERTS: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you, we'll be right back.


LEMON: In the state of Texas, more than 40 percent of kids go to jail, once, will be back within 12 months. This week's CNN hero is a chef from Dallas, who left a top restaurant and successful career to help stop this revolving door. After a chance encounter with an excited young man from the Dallas County Juvenile Justice Facility, who just discovered his love of cooking? Chad Houser had his ah-ha moment.


CHAD HOUSER, CNN HEROES: I remember consciously thinking that the system is rigged. Based on choices that were made for him not by him. The color of his kin, the part of town that he was born into, the schools that he had access to. And I just thought, it's not fair. He deserves every chance that I had. And I thought, if you're not willing to do something yourself then your being a hypocrite. So, either put up or shut up. And that was it for me.


LEMON: To see suggest, how Chad is putting up helping design brighter futures for young people, go to CNN and if you know someone who deserves to be a CNN hero, nominate them. That is it for us tonight. Thanks for watching.