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Interview with Rudy Giuliani. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired May 18, 2018 - 07:00   ET


[07:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One day away from the royal nuptials.

People have already started to camp out along the procession route.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The fact of someone black being married into the royal family represents a widening and a diversity it's never had before.


ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo and Alisyn Camerota.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome to your NEW DAY.

Alisyn is joining us from the place to be, Windsor, England. Where they're getting ready for the royal wedding.

But we have so much news that happened overnight here. We have President Trump and his allies stepping up efforts to expose an FBI informant whom the president alleges spied on his campaign.

Now, he's getting some of this from "The Washington Post." But there is no evidence if any spy was imbedded. Now, the FBI, however, is preparing to minimize fallout if this person's identity is revealed.

We have the president's lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, in the house this morning. He says there may be a better chance now for a Trump-Mueller interview. Why? What changed? We'll ask him directly.

The Trump team reportedly planning a series of summer sessions to prep him if there is any eventual sit down with the special counsel. So we'll be talking to Rudy about all of this in just a moment.

But, Alisyn, you look too good to ignore the reality on the ground there. How is it this morning?

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: It's beautiful here, Chris. It is beautiful. It's sunny. It's electric. Everyone is excited. I'm here in Windsor, England, where the royal wedding day. It will get underway just 24 hours from now. And we have had some breaking news already in the last hour this morning.

So we now know who will walk Meghan Markle down the aisle. It will not be her mother, but rather Prince Charles, Harry's father. He will give the bride away. Kensington Palace made the announcement this morning. That was just one day after Meghan Markle confirmed that her father would not be here in order to focus on his health back at home.

And we've also learned that Prince Harry's grandfather, Prince Philip, will attend the royal wedding. This is just less than two months after he had hip surgery.

Now, Meghan Markle's mother, Doria Radlan, will have tea with the queen today at Windsor Castle, that you see behind me. This will be their first ever meeting. And Radlan has alrady been introduced to some of the royal family, including Prince William and Kate Middleton and their children, George and Charlotte. We assume little Louis was napping at the time.

So we will have much more later this hour for you.

But now, let's get back to Chris in New York.

CUOMO: All right, make sure you don't lose that hat I lent you, OK? It was my fathers. It's very special.

CAMEROTA: I will show it later.

CUOMO: It's very special to me.


CUOMO: Don't lose it.


CUOMO: All right, we'll check back with you in a little bit.

All right, joining us now to discuss a lot of news is former New York City mayor and the newest member of President Trump's legal team, Mr. Rudy Giuliani.


CUOMO: Mr. Mayor, always a pleasure. Thank you for being with us.

GIULIANI: Thank you for having me back.

CUOMO: Two matters are news to discuss and then we have to get into this full-throated conversation about what you believe is happening with the probe.

First, are you OK?

GIULIANI: Oh, yes, I'm fine. I'm absolutely fine.

CUOMO: So, reports about the pedicab?

GIULIANI: Yes, the pedicab took more damage I think.

CUOMO: All right. So what I heard was -- tell me if this is right or wrong -- that in the side view mirror you saw a squeegee guy or what you thought was a squeegee guy -- GIULIANI: Jumping out of the car.

CUOMO: And you opened the door into him. Is that true?

GIULIANI: Almost. Actually I saw Chris Christie and I wanted to prevent him from getting -- from destroying the pedicab.

CUOMO: All right, good. So you're good. That's good to know.

This news that you believe that according to the special counsel and their investigative team, there may be a narrowing of questions. Is that accurate?

GIULIANI: Yes, it is. It's accurate as of Wednesday night. We -- Wednesday night we received a communication from them. Now, we did -- we did go through like five letters, but we didn't get a response. And then they sent us a response, I can't go into detail, but narrowing the subjects for questioning down to about two. And --

CUOMO: From all like 50 of those --


CUOMO: That list that came out from Sekulow.

GIULIANI: So a lot of them -- you could actually have divided those, and I did, into like five categories, subject areas.

CUOMO: All right. That's fair. Five, maybe seven.

GIULIANI: So three are down, are out. I mean no secret that the whole thing with Michael Cohen's out, because that's in the southern district of New York.

CUOMO: You believe that Mueller has turned over all of that investigation or do you think he may have reserved certain aspects?

GIULIANI: It's my belief that he turned all of it over. Now --

CUOMO: All of it?

GIULIANI: That doesn't mean they don't communicate, as they should. They should communicate.

CUOMO: Or that he could reclaim an aspect of it based on findings?

GIULIANI: It would also show -- that would send us a signal that he believed there was a connection to the president. As long as he leaves it there, he believes there isn't a connection to the president, which it seems, from everything I know, to be correct. That's a -- that's a -- whether -- whatever you think of that, that's an independent issue. And it doesn't depend at all on the resolution of this one (INAUDIBLE).

CUOMO: All right. So as far as you know, Mueller isn't looking at Cohen? That's about the southern district? GIULIANI: And -- and the southern district has -- basically isn't

looking at the president if he's in the rear-view mirror somewhere. Who knows.


GIULIANI: But we'll keep an eye on that.

CUOMO: So that's off the table. What else is off the table?

GIULIANI: I can't really say the rest. And the rest -- some of it is subject to negotiation.

The main focus that we want, I can tell you, simply is Russia. Was there a connection with Russia? We -- we see that the -- that the report in "The New York Times," which we think is -- is sort of a prophecy of what's going to be revealed by Horowitz, who's the IG of Justice, is that as of the beginning of the Mueller investigation, after a 100-day investigation, the FBI found no connection with President Trump for Russia.

Now, here's the -- here's the issue that I really feel strongly about with this informant, if there is one. First of all, I don't know for sure, nor does the president, if there really was one. We're told that.

CUOMO: Told that by whom?

GIULIANI: We're told that by people who -- for a long time we've been told there there's some -- there was some kind of infiltration. At one time the president thought it was a wiretap. There were -- there were -- there were some FISA applications. We've never been notified that he was on a -- on a tap or an intercept.

CUOMO: There's never been any proof that he was on a wiretap either.

GIULIANI: No. But -- but --

CUOMO: But he did say it as fact many times.

GIULIANI: I think he -- I think he -- he thought that. I mean I think --

CUOMO: I know, but that doesn't make it true.


CUOMO: That's part of the problem with understanding this situation.

GIULIANI: It doesn't -- it doesn't --

CUOMO: The president feels something, states it as fact, there winds up being no proof. But now you have a lot of people believe it.

GIULIANI: But he makes -- he makes -- he makes -- he makes it turn out to be closer to the truth than people thought because if they're -- we're told there were two infiltrations, two imbedded people in the campaign. And --

CUOMO: Now, when you say you were told, just let's clear the record.


CUOMO: You mean you're gleaning this from the reporting that's out there?

GIULIANI: No, the reporting corroborates what people have told us off the record. You don't know if they're right or not. They're people who knew a little about the investigation, either are gone from the FBI --

CUOMO: Because the president this morning --

GIULIANI: May have been questioned.

CUOMO: Is quoting a Fox News commentator as his source of being concerned about this. This is the man who has almost plenary authority to pick up the phone and say to the DOJ --

GIULIANI: Oh, my --

CUOMO: Did you put somebody in my campaign?

GIULIANI: If he -- that would be -- that would probably -- with the DOJ in the current situation that it's in, so frightened of any intrusion, that would probably be really misunderstood.

Look, they should tell us if it was. I mean they -- they -- the obligation is on them to tell us.

CUOMO: The president has not been shy about talking to people at the top of the investigation about what he wants to know.

GIULIANI: Of course.

CUOMO: He asked the person running the investigation to say publicly he was clear.

GIULIANI: Well, I don't think -- as his lawyer -- as his lawyer, I -- I think that has to go through the White House Counsel's Office or possibly us. Shouldn't go through him.

But I -- I -- I want to know because I believe, if there was an imbedded person, that person cleared us because the FBI cleared us. I wonder what the heck is the legitimacy of the Mueller investigation in the first place. The FBI came to the conclusion there was no evidence of collusion with Russia. End of case.

CUOMO: How do we know that?

GIULIANI: It's in "The New York Times" yesterday. Paragraph 50.

CUOMO: One, let's just go on the record here also. Rudy Giuliani, president's lawyer, is using "The New York Times" as a good source. A source that the president assails only because it suits his advantage in the moment.

GIULIANI: But -- but, Chris --

CUOMO: It's good to hear you own the -- the media should be trusted.

GIULIANI: Chris, the -- the -- every once in a while.

Chris, the reality is, "The New York Times" is trying to take the wind out of the sails of the Horowitz report. The Horowitz report, I guarantee you, is going to be far worse.

CUOMO: Look, we haven't seen the report. We all welcome in. What we know for sure --

GIULIANI: Yes, we saw what he did to McCabe, right? He nailed McCabe as a flat-out liar.

CUOMO: Well, yes.

GIULIANI: And then Comey disowned McCabe.



CUOMO: And what am I pausing? Because what he was lying about also matters. And it is not something that goes to the truth of what you want to push, which is that the probe is out to get the president.

GIULIANI: He's a liar.

CUOMO: Fine. I'm not disputing that, nor have I ever.


CUOMO: What I'm saying is he was lying --

GIULIANI: And how about -- how about Comey? Comey -- Comey's a flat- out leaker.

CUOMO: But, hold on a second. One at a time.

What McCabe was doing was fanning the flames of his own intentions about going after Hillary Clinton.


CUOMO: So that does not shed any light unless you use the old legal Latin edict, falsus in unum, falsus in tuto (ph). He lied about one thing, so he's lying about everything. He is not proof of a dirty probe against Trump. That's what you and the president are pushing, which is easier for him to do than you in a way, which we'll get to later.

GIULIANI: Oh, no, Chris.

CUOMO: He wants to say the probe is wrong --


CUOMO: That it is dirty --


CUOMO: And that it is out to get him.


CUOMO: And he is using -- we do not know that any of that is true.

GIULIANI: It's true (ph). It is.

CUOMO: How is it true?

GIULIANI: First of all -- first of all we're talking -- based on an illegitimate source, Comey. Comey -- Comey writes a memo. Clearly FBI property. I'm sorry, he's the FBI director. You can't get around that.

He then does something for which FBI agents would be fired and maybe go to jail. He leaks the memo to a professor who gives it to the press, with the intention of getting it to the press (ph).

CUOMO: Maybe, maybe not, right? That analysis of what he did is more complex.

GIULIANI: Well, maybe, maybe not, because he's a damn liar.


GIULIANI: Because he's a damn liar. Jim Comey is -- can't be trust on anything. Of course he leaked (INAUDIBLE).

CUOMO: But he -- he -- but he said that he leaked it. So why is he a liar?

GIULIANI: Well, he's a liar because he said he didn't think that the professor was going to -- was going to necessarily give it out to the press. He thought they were going to talk about it.

CUOMO: No, he said -- that's not what he said in the interviews I saw. He said the opposite. He said, I gave it to him to distribute it. I didn't do it myself because I thought that that would create different compromises.

GIULIANI: Because I'm sneaky -- because I'm -- I'm a sneaky liar.

CUOMO: No, that's what you say. But --

GIULIANI: It's -- that's what Comey said, Chris.

CUOMO: But that's also not what started the probe.

GIULIANI: Yes, it is. The probe went to Mueller because all of a sudden Sessions had recused himself. Rosenstein decided he needed a special prosecutor. And he -- and Rosenstein goes and selects the guy that Trump had just turned down for FBI director. Go figure that.

CUOMO: Hold on. Two questions. Two questions. One, he didn't turn him down. He met with him about working for the FBI.

GIULIANI: He did turn him down.

CUOMO: And then he got picked special counsel right after it.

GIULIANI: Totally, totally wrong.

CUOMO: The reporting on it is that he never said to him --

GIULIANI: I know the reporting. That's why the reporting is wrong.

CUOMO: So you're saying that the president told Bob Mueller, you're not getting the FBI job.

GIULIANI: Told Rosenstein he wasn't getting the FBI job. I don't think we should have a -- a rerun.

CUOMO: When -- in what context?

GIULIANI: In the context of right after the interview.

CUOMO: No, so -- but, whoa.

GIULIANI: And was in -- I don't know if it's a day or two days when he was selected.

CUOMO: But -- but, hold on, there's no -- why would the president of the United States call Rosenstein and say, hey, I just interviewed Bob Mueller for FBI. He's not getting the job.

GIULIANI: That's what I did all the time if I didn't -- if I didn't want somebody.

CUOMO: Well, why would you call the head of the DOJ.


CUOMO: What does he have to do with it? He doesn't get to pick the head of the FBI.

GIULIANI: Because on that -- no, but he sat in on the interview.

CUOMO: But why would he have called him about it?

GIULIANI: Because he sat in on the interview. He's sharing -- he's sharing his thoughts with him. I would do that.

CUOMO: And so then hearing that the president doesn't think he's fit for the FBI, Rosenstein then says, I think he's perfect for the special counsel.

GIULIANI: That's what I understand. I -- I guess.

CUOMO: Why would Rosenstein do that?

GIULIANI: I don't know why Rosenstein has done a lot of things he's done. I don't know why he would expand --

CUOMO: The president picked him. So it's the president's guy.

GIULIANI: The president didn't pick him. Jeff picked him. The president --

CUOMO: And whose -- and whose guy is Jeff Sessions?

GIULIANI: Totally different. My commissioners would pick people. I don't -- I didn't know if they were good or bad.

CUOMO: Now, look, I'm just saying, that's -- that's a little bit of a shaky scenario you're (INAUDIBLE).

GIULIANI: No, wait a second, Chris -- Chris, you're really getting -- you're really getting off the point.

CUOMO: Please.

GIULIANI: The point is -- the point is that the whole -- the whole investigation is totally legitimate. The question of whether there was collusion with the Russians had been resolved in the first investigation by the FBI which "The Times" revealed, which Horowitz is going to analyze in a couple of weeks. And in that investigation there's a memo that says that there's no -- at least twice, no evidence of collusion with the Russians on -- on the part of Donald Trump. End of story.

CUOMO: But how --

GIULIANI: There shouldn't be an investigation.

CUOMO: But --

GIULIANI: No -- no, base, no probable cause for anything.

CUOMO: But we don't know what Mueller has and doesn't have, especially you. If anybody's going to respect the process, it should be you.

GIULIANI: But that -- now Mueller -- now Mueller comes after the fact. I'm not blaming Mueller.

CUOMO: But you're leaving out a huge event that precipitated this special counsel.


CUOMO: The firing of James Comey --

GIULIANI: And what's wrong with that?

CUOMO: By the president of the United States.

GIULIANI: What's wrong with that?

CUOMO: Well, arguably, nothing, or a lot because of why he did it.


CUOMO: Which he has jumped around on.

GIULIANI: Tell -- tell me what the why would be. The why would be the issue (ph) with the investigation. When they -- when -- when, in fact, he said a couple days later to Lester Holt, I know it would extend the investigation. I knew it would extend the investigation, sorry.


GIULIANI: It would take longer.

CUOMO: The way I understand it is that it was said by the president and people around him, not you at the time, that he fired him had nothing to do with the Russia investigation. Then he gives the interview with Lester Holt and says that it wasn't the Rosenstein memo, which is the original premise, it was, I was going to fire him anyway because I don't like this Russia probe.

GIULIANI: How about the -- how about the --

CUOMO: And that's what got him in deep water.

GIULIANI: Only because people wanted to trap him, not -- I don't know about the --

CUOMO: He's actually trapped himself, sir.

GIULIANI: How -- he did not. How about, there were five reasons to fire Rosenstein -- to fire --

CUOMO: Yes, Freudian slip.

GIULIANI: How about there were five reasons --

CUOMO: There's going to be nobody left if you guys have your way.

GIULIANI: Oh, there will be a lot of people left.

CUOMO: Yes, there will be new people.

GIULIANI: Maybe -- maybe --

CUOMO: Sessions has got to go. Rosenstein has got to go.

GIULIANI: Maybe -- not Jeff. I mean Jeff's a good man. But maybe honorable people. I mean we're not on --

CUOMO: Now he's a good man. The president has maligned Jeff Sessions again and again and again over his tenure, short as it's been. GIULIANI: Maybe we could have some honorable men there, not Jeff

Sessions. I'll leave it at that. Jeff's been a friend for 30 years. I think the president has complex views about him because maybe he could have stepped up and handled this a little better.

If I were the attorney general, the case would be dismissed now over the improprieties in the case.

CUOMO: Is that the right thing to do (ph)?

GIULIANI: Now, how about Manafort? The first guy they prosecute is Manafort. And Rosenstein -- if we want to talk about Rosenstein -- gives them permission to do it. Now, Manafort's case is in 2005. It had already been investigated.

CUOMO: But may also included --

GIULIANI: How could that --

CUOMO: Activities that they believe he was doing during his time with Trump and before.

GIULIANI: Then -- then investigate Manafort all by himself.

CUOMO: They are.

GIULIANI: No. No, they're not. They're investigating him as part of the -- part of the special counsel investigation. The Justice Department should be investigating that. There's no need for a special counsel. Nor was there a need for $20 million (INAUDIBLE).

CUOMO: Then why did Rosenstein pick one?

GIULIANI: Because he's scared.

CUOMO: Of what?

GIULIANI: He's scared that he's going to -- he's going to have this thing kind of land on him. His boss recused himself.

CUOMO: Why did Jeff Sessions recuse himself?

GIULIANI: But he didn't -- he didn't -- but Rosenstein -- Jeff Sessions recused because he worked on the Trump campaign and he felt he was too close. And I guess he thought --

CUOMO: Was that the right move?

GIULIANI: I can't criticize it. The president maybe as not being a lawyer criticized it. He could have made either decision.

CUOMO: Not being a lawyer or wanting to smear anybody --

GIULIANI: No, come on.

CUOMO: Who seems suggestive of anything that is critical of him. GIULIANI: Chris, that's not fair. That's just simply not fair.

CUOMO: How is it not fair in the context of what he's done to Jeff Sessions?

GIULIANI: If you're under investigation and you were in his -- you're in a -- how about what Jeff Sessions has done to him.

CUOMO: What has he done to him?

GIULIANI: What Jeff Sessions has done to him is stick him with a special counsel because he didn't step up and say, I can make this decision. Stick him with a special counsel that has now, $20 million later, come up with nothing. Doesn't want to say that.

CUOMO: How is it sticking him, first of all?

GIULIANI: And explain to me why they even need an interview with the president if it isn't to try to trap him into perjury --

CUOMO: One of --

GIULIANI: Which is what -- which is what the judge in the Manafort case has said about them --

CUOMO: All right, hold on.

GIULIANI: They basically are trapping people into perjury.

CUOMO: All right, let's not flood the zone. You can't -- you can't compellingly argue that that's what they do in these kinds of sessions. You were a master of those sessions.

GIULIANI: What -- what are you talking about?

CUOMO: That it's just a perjury trap, that's why they want to talk to him. One, it's only a perjury trap if the president won't tell the truth.

GIULIANI: How? I never -- I -- I -- no, no, oh, God, Chris, that's not true.

CUOMO: And -- and you should have more faith in those men and women --

GIULIANI: That's not true. Chris -- Chris, it's not true. It is not true.

CUOMO: Especially when you've said they're the best people that you've ever worked with.

GIULIANI: That a perjury trap is when -- is just when you're not telling the truth. A perjury trap is when you get somebody to lie about what you're telling the truth. Which is, the president would testify tomorrow if it was about the truth. The truth is, he had nothing to do with Russia. I was on that campaign. He didn't talk to Russians. He had nothing to do with Russia. He is as surprised about the Russian connection as -- as you would be and --

CUOMO: Then why won't he just sit down and say that?

GIULIANI: Because you've got people that are going to ask him questions about, what did you say to him, what did you say to him.


GIULIANI: And you've got Comey coming forward, who will lie. They believe Comey rather than -- look, it's like Martha Stewart. Martha Stewart never would have gone to jail if she hadn't gone and testified. What do you think --

CUOMO: She lied. She lied. I covered that case.

GIULIANI: Arguably. Lying -- lying is black and white. It isn't black and white. The president is not going to lie. Let's get that straight. The president is going to tell --

CUOMO: What gives you confidence to say --

GIULIANI: Because I've gone over the whole thing. I've investigated the whole thing. There's nothing to lie about.

CUOMO: Out of habit he practices mendacity.

GIULIANI: Stop there. Now that is -- that's a disgraceful --

CUOMO: Out of habit, Rudy.

GIULIANI: That's a disgraceful comment about the president of the United States. Out of habit the president defends himself against the press that spends time lying (ph).

CUOMO: He abuses the truth. He misleads, he misstates and he sometimes lies.

GIULIANI: But why -- why -- why aren't -- why aren't you asking me -- you want to talk about liars --

CUOMO: Because saying something that he knows is untrue and he does it to deceive.

GIULIANI: If we're talking about liars, why don't we talk about Comey, who's a proven liar.

CUOMO: Because one liar at a time. And the president of the United States matters most here.

GIULIANI: But that's the guy -- that's the guy they are going to trust against the president.

CUOMO: Look --

GIULIANI: And as his lawyer --

CUOMO: You don't know that.

GIULIANI: Of course I know that.

CUOMO: And, if anything, why wouldn't they be deferential to the president of the United States who's (ph) not somebody.

GIULIANI: Because then they're going to have to explain how the hell they wasted $20 million --

CUOMO: Here's my --

GIULIANI: On an investigation that begins without any evidence and ends without any evidence.

CUOMO: Look, here's my concern --

GIULIANI: $20 million later. Whoa.

CUOMO: First of all, so far we know it's seven. And, by the way, let's say it was 70. Let's say it were 700.

GIULIANI: Why don't they want to give the documents --

CUOMO: By government standards --

GIULIANI: Why don't they want to give the documents to the House about how much money it costs?

CUOMO: Why do you think? Do you think Devin Nunes has been a fair broker in this? As he runs to the White House --

GIULIANI: Then -- then give them to the Senate.

CUOMO: To work hand and glove with them on supposedly an independent probe.

GIULIANI: Then give it to the Senate.

CUOMO: He had to step away. He had to get investigated for ethics consideration.

GIULIANI: Man, anybody who defends the president is some kind of a scoundrel and anybody who lies about him is OK. Is that right?

CUOMO: Who says?


CUOMO: No way. When have I ever said that?

GIULIANI: You're -- you're telling me -- you're talking to me about Comey, about Rosenstein. You're talking to me about Jeff Sessions having done nothing wrong. I mean, come on.

CUOMO: No, no, no, I asked you, what did he do that was wrong. And it seems to be your answer is, he stuck the president with this special counsel. So what's Jeff Sessions' job, to cover the back of the president or to uphold the Constitution?

GIULIANI: No, he's (INAUDIBLE) to do that. To do -- he didn't uphold the Constitution. You don't need a special counsel in this case. Nobody else in the Justice Department is recused because Sessions is recused. So Rosenstein --

CUOMO: That's why Rosenstein is there.

GIULIANI: Well, then why -- OK. So then Rosenstein should be handling the case. And he doesn't need a special counsel.

CUOMO: He is.

GIULIANI: No, he's not, he's given it to a special counsel and he'll have review power.

CUOMO: He -- and in his judgement, he believes that he needed one.

GIULIANI: Oh, man, you -- you think --

CUOMO: And both sides of the aisle stood up and said, Bob Mueller is a great guy.

GIULIANI: Well, both sides of the aisle are protecting their backside. I mean none of them --

CUOMO: And the president isn't?

GIULIANI: Well, I --

CUOMO: And you're not in the business of doing that now for the president?

GIULIANI: Well, I'd be violating my oath as a lawyer if I wouldn't.

CUOMO: True. But here's where you're compromised on this.

GIULIANI: Oh. Oh, my gosh.

CUOMO: And this is why I've been asking you to come on. I remember --

GIULIANI: You wanted me to come on because I'm compromised?

CUOMO: No, no, not at all. I want you to come on because you're fundamental to the understanding of this and where the president's mind is on what he wants to happen.


CUOMO: And I appreciate you taking the opportunity. You know that.

You have lived a life where you were fundamental to the operation of justice on the federal level, OK. You've held the jobs and been in key components of the authority structure of what is now under scrutiny. If anybody else were sitting in that chair making these arguments, I'd just deal with the arguments. But when Rudy Giuliani says storm troopers, when Rudy Giuliani says that there is dirty at the top and that they would set a perjury trap and that these people are out to get him --

GIULIANI: Judge Ellis said that.

CUOMO: You have spent decades of my life telling me --


CUOMO: When I would come to you personally and say, oh, the government, oh, look at their surveillance, look what they're doing, you said, these are the best men and women we have.

GIULIANI: They are.

CUOMO: Don't judge what's going on by attacking their character. You're doing the opposite right now.

GIULIANI: No, I'm not. My point --

CUOMO: You called them storm troopers when they went into Michael Cohen's.

GIULIANI: They are. How about Manafort.

CUOMO: No, no, no.

GIULIANI: Going after --

CUOMO: How about Michael Cohen? That's when you called them storm troopers.

GIULIANI: I said, look -- well, they went -- they invaded the attorney-client privilege.


GIULIANI: I never did that.

CUOMO: Michael Cohen --

GIULIANI: I never searched a lawyer's office.

CUOMO: Storm troopers.

GIULIANI: You don't go into a lawyer's --

CUOMO: Nazi foot soldiers.

GIULIANI: You don't go into a man's house in the morning for a case that's 10 years old.

CUOMO: Did they have a warrant?

GIULIANI: Of course they had a warrant, but I didn't get a warrant.

CUOMO: Were they professional when they went? Were they courteous?

GIULIANI: No, I don't know if they were courteous.

CUOMO: Michael Cohen says they were.

GIULIANI: Well, I don't know if they were. They -- I sure as heck --

CUOMO: But he says they were. Wouldn't he know?

GIULIANI: I sure as heck would be very upset if I were Michael's lawyer about their coming into his home --

CUOMO: Michael Cohen was very upset but --

GIULIANI: First of all, you're mixing up Manafort and -- you're mixing up --

CUOMO: But you're still calling them storm troopers.

GIULIANI: Both of them --

CUOMO: You know better than to call these people --

GIULIANI: I don't know better, Chris. I know to say it, they are, and stick with it and accept it and own it. You are storm troopers.

CUOMO: But the men and women working for the FBI are storm troopers?

GIULIANI: The men and women were off base in what they did. Do they act inappropriately? Sometimes. Do you get a big liar like Comey, a big liar like McCabe in the FBI, a guy with a conflict of interest from day one on the Hillary investigation, which is why he's lying to cover his ass? Of course you get that. You get bad people in the FBI. Mostly good people. You get bad people in Justice. You get bad people in both parties. Yes, we get bad people. And it's my job to flush them out. And it's my job to do justice (ph). And if you can tell me that this investigation is worth the time that it's gotten and the money that it spent, then you don't know what you're talking about.

CUOMO: Unquestionable --

GIULIANI: This is an unjustifiable investigation.

CUOMO: You know what's -- you know what's interesting about this situation, I've now been told that I don't know what I'm talking about --

GIULIANI: (INAUDIBLE) blowing up --

CUOMO: By you and by Nancy Pelosi about the same thing.


CUOMO: And both of you were wrong when you said it.

GIULIANI: We're both Italian and we're (INAUDIBLE). CUOMO: And here's why. You were both wrong. Here's why. We know that Russian interference was real, OK. We know that they wanted to do it and they were successful in many of their efforts. We know they did it because they wanted to help Trump and hurt Clinton.

GIULIANI: But in --

CUOMO: We need to get to the answers of why they did it --

GIULIANI: But we have the answer!

CUOMO: How they do it --

GIULIANI: We've got the answer.

CUOMO: Who might have helped them, and how to stop this the next time.

GIULIANI: Well, the Democratic Party probably helped them with the dossier and everything else.

CUOMO: Oh, come on. Come on.

GIULIANI: That's part of the basis for the investigation.

CUOMO: Come on.

GIULIANI: The totally in -- totally corrupt dossier that was developed on -- on the president. And if you're asking me who have committed crimes here, the crimes have been committed by the investigators. Illegal leaking. Lying about relevant matters. Invasions of the attorney/client privilege, which were unethical not criminal.

CUOMO: It was carried by warrant. You have a great judge, who I'm sure you'll agree with in Kemba Wood, appointing a special master, letting the teams apportion what they see as privileged information.

GIULIANI: But the president has --

CUOMO: Having her look at it.

GIULIANI: A special master has said that she's very concerned about the violation of the attorney/client privilege.

CUOMO: Which is why she's put in place.

GIULIANI: And which is why the documents have not been --

CUOMO: If he had no concerns about it, you wouldn't need one.

GIULIANI: The documents are probably going to get (INAUDIBLE).

CUOMO: But they're following the law. They're following the law, Rudy. You should respect that as much as anybody.

GIULIANI: Yes, but the law is only -- I respect it immensely, that's why I'm fighting it out in court, not -- CUOMO: Well, you're maligning the whole process. You're saying they violated it with storm troopers for doing it.

GIULIANI: Well, you're telling me -- you're telling me that you can violate my client's rights and I have to just accept it?


GIULIANI: Because I'm -- I have a lot more courage than them.

CUOMO: I'm saying that you shouldn't assume that they violated the rights --

GIULIANI: I'm not assuming.

CUOMO: And that they acted inappropriately.

GIULIANI: I don't assume it.

CUOMO: But you're saying they are.

GIULIANI: Well, I -- I have practiced law for years. I've never heard of searching a lawyer's office for documents --

CUOMO: It happens.

GIULIANI: About a client.

CUOMO: You know it happens.

GIULIANI: And let's get --

CUOMO: I'm sure you've done it.

GIULIANI: I did not, Chris.

CUOMO: You were known as a muscled up guy when you were at the southern district.

GIULIANI: I did not. I'm not a muscle guy. Get out of here.

CUOMO: You didn't do strong things? You didn't take aggressive action? You weren't aggressive in the investigation.

GIULIANI: I do -- and I do as a lawyer for my clients. And my client is being unfairly prosecuted now. He's being unfairly -- no, he's not being prosecuted and we have pointed out he cannot be indicted either. He cannot be indicted. Do you want to dispute that with me?

CUOMO: I think that it's a question of process. I know that I -- no, no, but, listen, here's why.

GIULIANI: What process?

CUOMO: I know what the -- I know what the guidance is from the DOJ. I know the cases it stems from. GIULIANI: And you know that the special counsel is -- is governed by

that guide.

CUOMO: One hundred percent.

GIULIANI: And the case would be dismissed.

CUOMO: I mean, look, I guess theoretically he could choose to ignore it but he --

GIULIANI: And in which it would face --

CUOMO: But you have been told they won't.

GIULIANI: I am told they won't after some hesitation of two days, which kind of puzzled me.

CUOMO: OK. Right.

GIULIANI: Second, if they do, they know it will be dismissed.

CUOMO: Fine.

GIULIANI: But, if they do, the Justice Department would probably --

CUOMO: All right, that's fine. But they -- all right, first of all, just to not go too down this rabbit hole --

GIULIANI: So the --

CUOMO: I'm not disputing it. But, hold on, this is an important point. I think we have a graphic on it, if we do, of the options for Mueller, you can put it up, otherwise I'll just detail them. He could not indict the president. He could forgo the guidance and indict the president. He could do something that's far more likely in this situation, which is, we need to investigate, we need to put together the facts and then the process with the president is different than it would be for you or me. He'd need to be removed from office first through impeachment, then he could be indicted later. Or he could indict co-conspirators right now and send a message that was coupled with a reference for impeachment.

So, when you say you can't indict the president, I think we're talking about true but also a function of process.

GIULIANI: A long answer -- a long answer now, I think equals, you can't indict the president.

CUOMO: But I think you have to understand it as to why you can't --

GIULIANI: You can't --

CUOMO: And what you still could do and how in any way does that affect his ability to apply -- to comply with the subpoena? If he is subpoenaed --


CUOMO: If he were subpoenaed, the president of the United States --

GIULIANI: Because -- because --

CUOMO: Not being able to be indicted is irrelevant.

GIULIANI: But the --

CUOMO: He still has to comply.



GIULIANI: The people -- the people of -- reading the memo -- selectively reading it. The memo says, you cannot indict the president, nor can you issue a criminal process with regard to a case involving the president. Now, you're saying to me, well, what happened with Nixon? Nixon was documents. We've already turned documents over.


GIULIANI: We -- we didn't raise any privilege, 1.4 million documents --

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: From which the case should be resolved.

Number two, if you -- if you apply that ruling, there is no case in which a president has complied with a subpoena for his person. A subpoena ad persona, in persona.

CUOMO: Clinton.

GIULIANI: We've seen it. No, he didn't.

CUOMO: Sure he did.

GIULIANI: No, they -- they removed the subpoena. He didn't -- and then he -- then he --

CUOMO: Because he complied and he went before the grand jury.

GIULIANI: Because he -- he did not comply. He negotiated terms for a two and a half hour interview, which they wanted much, much more. And he did it on -- on video feed and he had control of the questions beforehand, or at least approval over the questions beforehand. Something that we're trying to negotiate, by the way, with -- with this --

CUOMO: You can cut your own deal. You can negotiate terms. That's fine. But, one --

GIULIANI: No president has ever complied with a subpoena. CUOMO: He complied. He spoke in front of the grand jury.

GIULIANI: He did not. He removed the subpoena.

And then his Justice Department, I've got the memo right here, his Justice Department issued an opinion in 2007 saying a president cannot be subject to criminal process. To reiterate that because they were afraid the president had given away a prerogative of article II.

CUOMO: Then why when asked about that situation in 1998 did you say, a president can't duck a subpoenaed --


CUOMO: If you get subpoenaed, you've got to comply. You've got to go.

GIULIANI: You can't -- you can't -- I never heard of a subpoena for the president's person.

CUOMO: Well, you've said exactly that.

GIULIANI: No, no. He --

CUOMO: And you went on to say --

GIULIANI: Chris -- Chris, let's distinguish between a subpoena for documents and a subpoena that takes the president out of the Oval Office and puts him in front of a grand jury or hearing. Can't do it! Can't do it, the second. You can do the first. The president --

CUOMO: But you never made that distinction before.

GIULIANI: I've never -- it never would have occurred to me they would try to subpoena the president.

CUOMO: He -- that's exactly what was going on in 1998. But people are going to say I'm making this up. Here's --

GIULIANI: And they lifted -- and they lifted --

CUOMO: Here's Charlie Rose with you in the interview and then you tell me what you meant.

GIULIANI: Oh, come on.

CUOMO: What, you don't want to hear it?

GIULIANI: It's not even relevant.



CHARLIE ROSE: If the president is asked to testify, subpoenaed to testify before a grand jury --


GIULIANI: That's really unfair. What you're doing right now is extremely unfair.

CUOMO: No, no, no, look, I'm giving you a chance to explain it.

GIULIANI: There's a reason that people don't come on this show.

CUOMO: Oh, stop.

GIULIANI: With all that -- that promoting of Avenatti and (INAUDIBLE) --

CUOMO: What does that have to do with this?

GIULIANI: Because they're all trying to bring Trump into that. And he's not involved in it, Chris.

CUOMO: Look, Avenatti has been getting fed information that has wound up being more true than not, mostly about Michael Cohen, OK? What he's doing on TV, that's his business and the people who put him on. I'm talking to you about this, and it matters. And I played that piece of sound. It's not my decision what comes on and not on all the time. With people like you, were I chase you around and I asked you very much to come on because I think that matters. That's my call.

But he's not my concern. And you know that.

What is my concern is, I played that piece of sound because I want to give you the benefit to give answers to the context.

GIULIANI: Well, I just explained it.

CUOMO: Because otherwise people will just beat you over the head with it.

GIULIANI: Chris, play it, and it's very explanatory.

CUOMO: Well, I did play it. They heard it.

GIULIANI: I'm talking -- I am talking about a subpoena for documents, which doesn't take out of your office, rather than a subpoena for your person, which I never contemplated anyone would suggest --

CUOMO: Well, that's exactly what they were asking Clinton to do --

GIULIANI: Yes, but Clinton was --

CUOMO: Sit down and answer questions about this.

GIULIANI: Clinton was opposing it. I didn't --

CUOMO: Right, but he eventually wound up sitting. And you say that legally that's because he had to.

GIULIANI: If you give me a subpoena and we negotiate terms and you withdraw the subpoena, I have not complied with the subpoena. The subpoena is now dead.

CUOMO: But you wind up in the same place effectively, which is answering questions under oath.

GIULIANI: And that -- no problem. But with conditions.

Now --

CUOMO: Fine.

GIULIANI: Because there was lack of clarity after my statement, not just me, God almighty, professors, whatever, the Justice Department wrote an opinion which we're all bound by if we work for the Justice Department, which is, you cannot issue criminal -- they call it criminal process.

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: You can't issue criminal process to the president. End of story. You can't do it unless you change that opinion. If Mueller did it, the Justice Department could take the subpoena away (ph).

CUOMO: Or you could just litigate it.

GIULIANI: Yes, but that's not -- I wouldn't litigate it.

CUOMO: Right, and he could subpoena him --

GIULIANI: I go right to the attorney general. I'd say, Jeff, you know, put on big boy pants and you go take it away.

CUOMO: But he's recused from this.

GIULIANI: Then I'd go to Rosenstein and say, you want to try the big boy pants on for size, you put them on, and you get rid of the subpoena.

CUOMO: All right. All right --

GIULIANI: He would have to do it or he'd have to quit.

CUOMO: All right, so I hear where you are legally on that. We'll see what happens if -- if that comes to pass.

GIULIANI: I don't think -- I have two reasons why we're not getting that. One, I believe we can work out conditions.


GIULIANI: That may be a little too optimistic. And not everybody agrees with me. And a lot of lawyers disagree with me. But my client agrees with me.


GIULIANI: And, second, if we don't, I don't believe they'll subpoena. They don't want --

CUOMO: Why not?

GIULIANI: Because they have the --

CUOMO: How does he end the probe without speaking to the president?

GIULIANI: He's got -- I ended most of my criminal probes without speaking to the subject. I decided --

CUOMO: What is a no-go zone for you? What is off the table? If this is on the table, we will not sit --

GIULIANI: Oh, 12 hours of sitting there. They're going to --