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Libya Model for North Korea; Pope on Being Gay; Royal Wedding Photos Released. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired May 22, 2018 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[06:30:00] DAVID SANGER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Ready to give the Nobel Prize over yet.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: As I recall your hesitance in that.

But what was the moment for President Trump from your reporting where he -- it started to shift for him and he started to go from being really optimistic to now quite concerned?

SANGER: I think the moment for him came, Alisyn, when he realized from the statement that the North Koreans issued last week in which they not only attacked John Bolton, but they attacked the Bolton concept of the Libya model that you heard Will talking about before. The Libya model is essentially that the Libyans turned over a very primitive nuclear equipment acquisition program to the U.S. in 2003. And then, as Will noted, in 2011, Gadhafi was overthrown.

The North Korean lesson from this is, if you give up all your nuclear weapons and your people turn against you, the Americans will leap right in and seize the opportunity to get rid of you. So the lesson they got out of that was, never get rid of everything.

So in -- so on the North Korean side, you're going to see a series of symbolic acts. And Will is headed off on what sounds like a great adventure to see one of them, which is the dismantling of the test site now. Most test sites are deep underground. And it's not clear how much Will and his colleagues are going to get able -- be able to see or how much of that is reversible. You'll remember that a decade ago the North Koreans blew up a cooling tower for a reactor. Everybody watched the video of that. I think CNN was at that as well. And the reactor was back in business in a few years.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Right. You always have to be a little skeptical about somebody wanting to show you something as opposed to you discovering it on your own.

But that Libya model had teeth for people and supposedly was a brush- back pitch for the North Korean regime.

The vice president, Mike Pence, was asked about it, tried a finesse move. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF TH UNITED STATES: There was some talk about the Libyan model last week.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

PENCE: And, you know, as the president made clear, you know, this -- this will only end like the Libyan model ended if Kim Jong-un doesn't make a deal.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some people saw that as a threat?

PENCE: Well, I think it's more of a fact.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: So that means it's both, right? Because anybody who just does one quick Google search on Libya will see, turn over all your stuff. You're not acting the way you like. Here comes the bombs and now you're going to wind up dead in the back of a pickup truck. That is a fact, but it's also a threat, is it not?

SANGER: Well, it is. And, you know, if the first rule of holes is if you're in one stop digging, right, it strikes me that every time the administration comes out and makes this threat, the way it's read in Pyongyang is simply that they would be crazy to give up all of their nuclear options here because if the U.S. believes that it can overthrow the regime that quickly, they think they need a way to show the United States that it would not be cost free, that they could reach the United States. And so they think every time they hear that, it re-enforces their concept that Gadhafi made a severe error in giving everything up.

Now, the truth of the matter is, Gadhafi didn't have very much. I've been down, I've seen that stuff in Tennessee with my colleagues. It was all still in boxes. The North Koreans, on the other hand, have, as we've discussed many times, nuclear weapons, production facilities, missiles. We don't know if the missiles can reach every American city, but they're getting close. And it would require some very, very creative thinking about how the president assures the North Koreans that they are safe giving all of that up. And the mere written assurance that don't worry we have no plan to attack you is not likely to do the trick.

CAMEROTA: All right. It will be very interesting to see what unfolds over the course of the next month and if this summit actually happens.

David Sanger, thank you for sharing all the reporting with us.

SANGER: Great to be with you.

CAMEROTA: You, too.

Now to this story. He's a gay man. He's a survivor of priest sexual abuse. And Pope Francis said something incredible to him that has gotten the world's attention. That man, Juan Carlos Cruz, will join us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [06:38:22] CUOMO: All right, this is a big story. A whistle blower in Chile's clerical sexual abuse scandal, which was huge, covered up and disgusting. All right, so one of the victims goes to talk about how they became a survivor. Goes to meet Pope Francis. Spends days at the Vatican. Then Pope Francis says something that we have never heard from anyone of any position of authority at the Catholic Church, let alone a pope before. He says, God made you gay and loves you that way. Your sexuality doesn't matter. If you're a Catholic or not, you would never expect to hear anything like that coming out of the Vatican.

Juan Carlos Cruz is the man you're about to meet. He's the man who traveled to the Vatican. He didn't need to. He's got his own life as a survivor. He's a corporate executive. He's doing well, but now he is in the middle of something that so many never expected.

And it is a pleasure to meet you.

JUAN CARLOS CRUZ: Thanks, Chris.

CUOMO: So let's give context here, OK. You are a grown man. You are living a full life. You work for a huge company in a big position. You do not need to dwell in your teenage years, the hardest moment of your life, but you decided to go to the Vatican, why?

CRUZ: Well, you know, it's been a fight of years, me and two of my friends who spoke up in 2005, some 2009. It was -- it was something we had to do. We had to stop this predator from abusing more people. Friends of ours had committed suicide. And it was time to stop him.

[06:40:08] We went to the cardinal in Chile, Cardinal (INAUDIBLE). Nobody believed us. Nobody did anything. You know, when you think the abuse is bad, you should see what it is when bishops re-victimize you and slap you across the face when you think they should be the ones, you know, helping you.

CUOMO: So you went to them and said, look, here's what happened. We've heard of another case. This has to stop. It went back many years ago.

CRUZ: Ys.

CUOMO: Enough is enough. Now, not only did you meet the resistance of the church as an institution, which we've seen. But because you were a gay man --

CRUZ: Yes.

CUOMO: There was another layer of scrutiny. What did they say to you?

CRUZ: Yes. So when -- when the -- when my lawyer -- we got a lawyer who is an amazing man. And we were talking to him. And then he told the other two, hey, when you leave, I want to stay with Juan Carlos a little bit longer. And he said, Juan Carlos, I hope you know what you're getting into because by being gay, they're going to go after you like you cannot imagine.

And, you know, when your life -- I wrote a book and I say, when your life goes by -- when you're going to die, they say, your life goes by, that's what happened to me. I had ran away from Chile to come to the U.S. and work here and had built my castle. I work with the media. I'm not the news. I make other people news. And so it was really hard for me.

But I said, OK, I'll do it. And as I did it and immediately the cardinal, for example, started saying -- Cardinal (INAUDIBLE) in Santiago, who was the archbishop at the time, said, Juan Carlos Cruz is not a victim because he's gay and he liked it. And so --

CUOMO: All right, so let's give people context. Man, that makes you -- especially for the Catholics, man, that's hard to hear. Somebody that you put in a position literally of reverence saying something like that.

You're a young teen. You lose your father. Where were you in your life at that time and what happened?

CRUZ: So I was in high school and -- and, you know, I was so broken. And I thought -- I come from a Catholic family, not, you know, a normal Catholic family. And they said some friend of the family said go to this priest, Father Cardema (ph). He's incredible. He's a saint. He's -- you know, he'll help you. And I did.

And so, of course, you know, predators are like that. You know, thy -- friends of mine, nothing ever happened to them. And to me, yes, and two others yes, right? So it was you, yes, you, yes, you, yes, you, no, no. You know, it's so random and they know how to do it.

And so the abuse started shortly after. And it's so embarrassing, Chris, for a survivor because, you know, I consider myself a semi- intelligent person. I, as you said, I work as an executive on one of the largest multinationals in the world. And, you know, head global communications brand. I do all these things. And to think that when I was that age, not four or five or six, I was older. And to have myself -- let myself go through that is something that it's hard to forgive yourself. But I'm trying.

CUOMO: You were young. You were vulnerable. And that man knew it and he took advantage of it.

CRUZ: Ys.

CUOMO: And the only thing that we know as fact that is impressive isn't what you succumb to, isn't what you were able to survive, it's that you made it through. And look at where you are now. And you go to meet the pope. And how was he with you? Did he believe you?

CRUZ: Yes. So in January -- we've been accusing a bunch of these bishops of cover-up, right, in Chile. So he went to Chile in January and he didn't expect what happened that very few people went to his masses. Very few people were excited to receive him in Chile. They gave a holiday. And instead of people going to see the pope, they went to the beach.

So something wrong was there. And at -- the last day he was in Chile, they said, well, what do you think of Juan Carlos Cruz and James Hamilton and (INAUDIBLE) friends? And he said what they are saying is calamy (ph). He said --

CUOMO: Calamy, false blame --

CRUZ: Yes.

CUOMO: That this was all untrue, because that's what he had been told by the people in charge in Chile.

CRUZ: Exactly. Exactly.

So, of course, everybody was in an uproar. We were in an uproar. We spoke up. You know, I remember "The New York Times" editorial board doing a piece supporting us and how -- and so shortly after he sent the Archbishop Shicluna (ph) and Monsignor Jordy Bertamao (ph) to -- they came to New York to interview me because I'm the only one that lives here. Well, I live in Philly, but I'm here all the time. And then they flew to Santiago and they did this whole investigation.

[06:45:11] And went back to the pope and told him, Holy Father, you were wrong. And they misinformed you. This is, after 70 people we interviewed, it's true. And so then he issued a letter that summoned the whole bishop's conference to Rome and called me and the others and invited us to spend a week with him in the Vatican in his house in Santa Marta (ph), because he doesn't live in the Apostolic palace. And I actually lived in the room right under him. And it was incredible. And we had hours and hours of conversation. And, you know, after last week, the bishop's conference came to Rome and they all presented their resignations.

CUOMO: And you say that the story that we've been told, which is they voluntarily resigned --

CRUZ: Oh, no.

CUOMO: Is not the truth.

CRUZ: No.

CUOMO: That the pope put the arm on them and said, you're all out.

CRUZ: Yes.

CUOMO: I'll give you the dignity of resigning, otherwise you're out.

CRUZ: Yes. Yes. Exactly.

CUOMO: Important distinction.

What did it mean to you? I want to end on this.

CRUZ: So --

CUOMO: When you saw the pope look you in the eyes and we know what the position of the church is, right, that being gay is some kind of function of disorder. We love the sinner, but not the sin.

CRUZ: Right.

CUOMO: That's what you expected, I'm sure. When he looked you in the eyes --

CRUZ: So I was sitting like I'm sitting with you and just by ourselves and it was a conversation that ended up being like almost three hours, but it started with him saying, I really apologize for the pain that the church has caused you and for what I've caused you. I said, Holy Father, no. He said, no, let me finish. Yes, I caused you pain by saying this in January and I want to apologize. It was sincere.

And then I said, you know, that they had painted me in such a perverse that I was just disturbed (ph). And I said, Holy Father, I'm not a saint, but I certainly want to be a good person. He said, Juan Carlos, God made you like this. God loves you like this. The pope loves you like this. And you should love yourself.

And, for me, of course, tears, you know, and -- so it's been incredible since. And, you know, more so for the survivors around the world because this hasn't -- doesn't have to be about me. It's about thousands of survivors that are suffering right now that do not get heard, that are not heard, that are treated with disrespect. And so I feel by firing this whole bishop's conference, by us being there, by him listening to us, maybe this is the beginning of the end of this culture of abuse and cover-up by bishops and that this pope is not going to stand for it.

And so -- and on this other subject, it's been incredible the amount of gay people that have written to me and said, I'm crying as I hear this. And it's touching. So I hope that by me doing these things, it helps survivors, it helps gay people, it helps all these people that are disenfranchised and that are suffering in some way and that I can contribute to bring them through this great man, the Holy Father, to bring them some kind of solace in their lives.

CUOMO: There will be people who don't like it.

CRUZ: Yes.

CUOMO: There will be people who will hate on you.

CRUZ: Yes.

CUOMO: There will be people who explain it away within the church.

CRUZ: Yes.

CUOMO: And none of that matters.

CRUZ: Yes.

CUOMO: Because the pope said something that the church and that the world needed to hear. Being gay is not what you do, it's who you are. And he said that's for everyone to hear. CRUZ: Yes.

CUOMO: Juan Carlos --

CRUZ: Thanks, Chris.

CUOMO: Don't thank me. Thank you for telling your story here. I appreciate it.

CRUZ: Thank you. Thank you so much.

CUOMO: Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: What a profound story and impact that it will have.

Let's talk about love, shall we? The royal newlyweds attending their first official event today and they released three new wedding photos. So we're going to do a little body language study about what these photos reveal about the couple and the family.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:53:20] CAMEROTA: In just a few hours the new duke and duchess of Sussex, Prince Harry and Meghan Markle, will make their first official appearance as royal husband and wife. This will be an event celebrating the 70th birthday of Prince Charles. They have also released three more official photos from their wedding.

Let's discuss it all with CNN royal commentator Kate Williams.

Kate, great to see you again. We had such a great time together in Windsor covering the wedding.

So, listen, as I've told you, I can't get enough of looking at this couple because they're so beautiful. So I love these three new official photos. So I just want to get your take on the body language and kind of the family psychology of where everyone is placed.

So, number one, this is the couple with the whole family, OK. So you see the queen. You see Prince Philip. You see Prince Charles here. You see Camilla. You see, obviously, Kate and William. I wish we could zoom in a little bit.

But what do you see here, Kate?

KATE WILLIAMS, CNN ROYAL COMMENTATOR: Well, what a wonderful day we had on Saturday. It was amazing. You and I (INAUDIBLE) together, what a day. And this is -- these are the photos that show this day to the world.

And this is a really significant photo. This is the future of the royal family. And what really strikes me here, it's much more diverse, affecting multi-cultural Britain. The duchess looks fabulous.

But what really I'm struck by is the love, the affection between Doria and her mother. And so many of us were really -- and so much respect and awe of Doria on the day sitting there on her own, the absolute epitome of dignity. And there she is devoted so thrilled for her daughter. So that was wonderful to see.

CAMEROTA: That is really nice.

OK, now let's look at this next one. This is the royal couple with the little bridal party, OK. So they were all kids. And as you and I remarked, this could have gone horribly wrong. Somebody could have tripped over the train, the veil. But it went beautifully. And you can see how kind of mischievous some of these little kids look and how cute they were. And this is -- is this the photo that just kind of telegraphs youth for the future of the royal family?

[06:55:24] WILLIAMS: You're so, right, Alisyn. This is youth. This is the future. And those children, of course, we have George, the future king, and Charlotte there who, wasn't she wonderful? She loves the crowds, waiving.

But, you know, there's a very -- there's a very significant little thing there that not many people have spotted, a tribute to Diana. The couch that Prince Harry is sitting on, that was exactly the same couch that Diana was sitting on for her christening photos with harry as a baby. So he has chosen to remember his mother. She -- of course, she's not in the photos. She can't be in the photos. But she can be remembered, evoking that old photo of Harry and Diana together at his christening which, of course, is in St. George's Chapel.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

WILLIAMS: But that is about youth. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful photo.

CAMEROTA: It is. And this is why it's so helpful to have you because you see all the symbolism and the royal family imbues photos with symbolism.

One last thing, very quickly, this photo, because it's called the flirtiest, you know, royal photo ever. So she's sitting between his legs. He has his arm on her -- his hand on her arm. She's looking off camera. It's just a beautiful photo. Very quickly, Kate, what do you see here?

WILLIAMS: So romantic. And I really do see here two people who absolutely -- we saw this in the ceremony. It was billions -- billions are watching, but it was all about intimacy, all about love. They held hands all the way through. Absolutely beautiful. And we've seen people having to marry people they don't really love in the royal family. Bad marriages. Arranged marriages. This is one about love and it's going to last.

CAMEROTA: Oh, it's so nice. We love love.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Kate Williams, thank you. Thank you very much.

WILLIAMS: Thank you so much.

CAMEROTA: Great to talk to you.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Chris.

CUOMO: All right, lawmakers are going to get to see highly classified information related to the Russia investigation. Top law enforcement and intelligence officials are giving in to demands of the president. What does this mean for the integrity of a major democratic institution? Next.