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CUOMO PRIME TIME
Interview with Anthony Scaramucci; Discussion of Trump/NFL Controversy; Interview with Peter Navarro. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired June 5, 2018 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN: Anderson, thank you for getting that number out there. A very important message.
I am Chris Cuomo. Welcome to PRIME TIME.
Why did the president cancel his meeting with the Eagles? Is he really trying to divide the country over freedom of speech just because it may help him politically?
We got former White House communications director Anthony Scaramucci here. Does he see this as winning?
Plus, President Trump's education secretary says the commission tasked with keeping your kids safe at school won't be looking in to the role of guns. What?
And Bill Clinton gets a do-over on the Monica Lewinsky question. What did he say this time? What do you say?
Let's get after it.
CUOMO: All right. Let's call it the Eagle debacle.
Facts first. The White House says the president is standing up for the National Anthem. But not one single Eagle knelt in protest during the National Anthem, during the regular season. Not one.
And yet, President Trump disinvited the whole team from coming to the White House today, had a celebrating America ceremony instead. Had military there and some alleged Eagle fans -- some of whom we're told couldn't name the team's quarterback. And then accused the Eagles of pulling a political stunt.
Another tangled web from the White House? Another play at dividing the country?
Maybe Anthony Scaramucci can help us figure out how this is good politics or good for the country.
Former White House communications director, friend of the show, thank you for being with me here.
ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Congratulations on the show. Let's start with that. God bless.
CUOMO: Appreciate it.
SCARAMUCCI: Wish you great success.
CUOMO: So, do you like this move of disinviting the Eagles?
SCARAMUCCI: Well, I think you have to step back and look at the totality of the facts. So, I think you've got to go back to the NFL owners' decision about what it meant to stand or kneel for the National Anthem. And then I think what happened is some of the Eagles players, perhaps, because of that decision, disaffected from the White House invitation.
So, it appeared that there were 10 or 15 Eagles that would show up at the White House versus 45 or 50 Eagles and I think the president felt that that was probably too small of a quorum of Eagles and it was probably a notion of symbolic protest as a result of the NFL owners' decision. And so, the combination of those two things, the president made a decision to cancel the invitation and then to go with the celebration of the flag.
CUOMO: Bad move? We know what he did. The question is, why he did it? What he's trying to achieve?
SCARAMUCCI: So, you're going to disagree with me perhaps on this and I have said this publicly and I don't mind saying it on your show. I have no problem with the peace and social justice movement and the protests of the NFL players. My problem consistently with that has been with the venue, Chris.
They're being paid to be on the field. The NFL is super tied into our military. I've been to our air bases, our military support bases in Iraq and Afghanistan and the troops love the NFL.
SCARAMUCCI: So it is a little dishonorable to me, me personally, that they're kneeling. I think the president takes that it way.
And so, I have no problem protesting, find venues to do this. They can -- clearly, the NFL can work the players outside of the arena.
CUOMO: I hear you. I've heard this before. It's not an uncommon argument.
CUOMO: You have the right to the opinion.
CUOMO: This is the president of the United States. What he's saying is, I'm going to punish you if you have a different opinion. I'm going to disinvite from you the people's house, all right? That's not his house. There's no Trump on it in gold, and bust (ph).
He's saying: you don't come here. It is a move of division and isolation of a group of people that he has deemed unpatriotic. How is that presidential? How is that good for the country?
SCARAMUCCI: So, again, he is the temporary occupant of that house. And so, you have to give him some respect. If you got 45 or 50 people and 35 of the 50 people disaffect from coming to the house --
CUOMO: People you called in general, sons of bitches who should not be in the country. Don't forge that.
CUOMO: Which had obvious racial undertones to people.
SCARAMUCCI: You're a New Yorker and I'm a New Yorker. Sometimes we're prone to a little bit of embellishment, a little bit of hyperbole.
CUOMO: The president of the United States --
SCARAMUCCI: I -- OK, I understand that. But you have to understand how he got to be president of the United States. He got there by practicing in an unorthodox style and he got there by explaining to the American people that the current shenanigans that go on in Washington are not to their favor.
CUOMO: And --
SCARAMUCCI: And let me finish. And now, 15, 16 months, or 500 days later, he's actually done a very, very good job for the American people.
CUOMO: But --
SCARAMUCCI: You're not going to agree with everything that he does and you obviously don't agree with this decision today --
CUOMO: No, no, no, it's not what I agree or don't agree with. You have to scrutinize why he's doing it. You had to add another phrase, why he won. And, comma, he played to these types of divisions and tensions.
We have reporting from the White House right now that he sees this as a winning issue for him. If he campaigns on, there he is saying one simple thing. If you don't play American the way I say you should, you're not a patriot. You're an enemy.
And that is good for this country?
SCARAMUCCI: OK, you're not -- well, the way you're phrasing it, obviously, it's obviously not good for the country.
CUOMO: How do I have it wrong?
SCARAMUCCI: You're phrasing it in a way that I think is incorrect.
CUOMO: Show me how given these examples. What's the facts?
SCARAMUCCI: Let me tell you what I think. The president is basically saying, I think the same thing I'm saying -- totally fine with the First Amendment, totally fine with your peaceful protests of things you disagree with, whatever it relates to peace and social justice.
But in that venue as it relates to the NFL and the relationship the NFL has with our military and the aura, and the cultural symbol of the NFL, we want you to stay --
CUOMO: It's not about how he feels about it. It's about what he says and does about it, Anthony.
I am. You just said the same point three times. I get that he doesn't like the venue.
SCARAMUCCI: I'm really trying to answer your question, because he's not really trying to divide the country. What he is trying to do is actually unite the country around this idea that the flag is held sacred and that the flag -- we should have an unconditional love of the country.
As Lincoln said about the country, it's the last best hope for mankind. Every one of us has a generational immigration story. Every one of us has had an aspirational standard success in the country.
SCARAMUCCI: And so, yes, we've had problems. There's been the stain of slavery. There's been some levels of police brutality. I'm not saying it's perfect but it is way better than the other alternatives that are out there in the world.
SCARAMUCCI: And all the president is saying is that we should have unconditional love for the flag and we should support that together. And whatever our differences are, whatever we need to protest, let's pick a different venue.
I think that's unifying. You think that's dividing. So, that's --
CUOMO: I think what you just said is basically unifying. But here's your problem, my friend. That's not what he's saying. He's saying if you don't address the flag the way I want you to.
The flag is a symbol of freedom. The keystone of freedom is freedom of speech and expression. But he's saying --
SCARAMUCCI: I don't think he's saying that, though. We got to invite him on your show because I don't think he's saying that.
CUOMO: First of all, the president -- the president is invited to come on the show any time he wants. It's an open offer. I've made it many times.
SCARAMUCCI: He's probably -- he's probably not going to come on your show, Chris. But --
CUOMO: And what does that tell you, by the way? OK, if he wants the dumb questions, that's fine. But we still scrutinize the facts.
CUOMO: You can't tell me it's unifying -- listen. He's the president of the United States. Being irritated is part of the job. Dealing with hard questions is part of the job.
He is taking a different path. Anthony, here's what I'm saying.
SCARAMUCCI: I don't -- I don't disagree any of that.
SCARAMUCCI: -- to expand his opportunity set and go on as many networks as possible.
CUOMO: Yes, that was strategy.
SCARAMUCCI: He is a television star.
CUOMO: He is.
SCARAMUCCI: And he has got an unbelievable force with his personality. He can answer any tough question. He can handle any situation.
CUOMO: And yet he won't.
SCARAMUCCI: And he has a point of view -- well, maybe he will. Maybe there's an evolution -- maybe there's evolution of that process.
CUOMO: It's an open invitation. But let's get back to this.
Let's deal with the future in the future. Today, you said he's trying to unify. I don't understand that on the facts.
CUOMO: How is it unifying to say if you don't exercise your freedom of speech the way I like, you are son of a bitch and should get out of the country and then we'll disinvite from the White House.
SCARAMUCCI: Now you're being unfair, because you're relating to that off the cuff interview outside the MS-13 meeting where he was cuffing it, as he's sometimes prone to do. And he doesn't want the people out of the country. He really --
CUOMO: He's tweeted about it. He said it multiple times. He just disinvited them.
SCARAMUCCI: What he really wants is people to have an unconditional love of the flag and to recognize the symbol that represents for all of us. And on a Memorial Day, or on a Veterans Remembrance Day, or when you see the painful sacrifice that people have made and you walk the halls of the Walter Reed Hospital, the people who have fought and died and have been injured and wounded for that flag, and the concept of that freedom, that we're all benefitting from, all the president is saying, hey, listen, have an unconditional love for the country. Salute the flag. Let's protest in different venues away from the sacredness of the flag.
CUOMO: The unconditional love of this country is expressed in our freedom and our respect of tolerance, OK?
SCARAMUCCI: But if you're on a job and you're getting a wage, I don't know about you --
CUOMO: You ask veterans how they feel about what's going on here and you will see that there is no clear majority of them saying, we hate that these guys kneel and protest. Many of them say they fought for this.
SCARAMUCCI: But you're on the payroll here at CNN. Are you going to enter into a peace and social justice movement here at CNN without the consent of your employer? I mean, you're on the payroll. You're getting paid to do this show right now.
CUOMO: That's about that the relationship between player and the NFL.
SCARAMUCCI: OK. So, but hold on --
CUOMO: It's not about the president of the United States who says, hey, I heard Cuomo decided to form his kind of protest. I don't like it. I think he is a bad guy. He should be out of the country. He is not an American and he's an opponent to the president.
Do you think that's OK?
SCARAMUCCI: No, but I think you're now silly puttying the story and you're stretching it to fit that narrative.
CUOMO: I haven't moved it beyond one established fact.
SCARAMUCCI: Let me rephrase, though. Let me give you a better metaphor. It's laffy-taffy. You're stretching story and converting to it fit a narrative that isn't accurate. What is accurate is, you're on the field. You represent the NFL.
You're tied into our military. You're a cultural totem for our society. Show some love and respect for the flag.
CUOMO: That's your opinion.
SCARAMUCCI: Many people died over that.
CUOMO: That's your opinion.
SCARAMUCCI: Well, that's also the NFL owners' opinion now, right?
CUOMO: That's right, and they created their own rules and Trump says they're not good enough.
SCARAMUCCI: You're eliminating some facts.
CUOMO: I'm not eliminating a single fact.
SCARAMUCCI: No, here's the elimination of fact that we're leaving out. They decided, maybe 35 of them, maybe 40 of them, I don't know the exact number, not to show up at the White House.
CUOMO: Do they have the right to do that?
SCARAMUCCI: They do. But then why doesn't the president have the right to say, OK, if you don't have a full quorum of the Philadelphia Eagles, you guys are -- you guys are having a protest related to this. I don't want the news cycle -- of course, we're doing it right now on your show. I don't want the news cycle to be about this. I'm going to have a peaceful celebration.
CUOMO: No, I'm going to disinvite and I'm gong to --
SCARAMUCCI: In my backyard, which I temporarily resided.
CUOMO: I'm going to attack you and I'm going to disinvite you.
And here's the thing -- and we're going to talk about this in a larger way. Does this president ever have to be the better man in your opinion? Does he have to rise above any slight? Any perceived indignity? Does he ever have to be better?
SCARAMUCCI: Here's the problem. I'm going to answer that question in a way that's going to surprise you. I'm going to say, of course he does.
SCARAMUCCI: Well, let me just finish. But here's the problem with the whole narrative, OK? He is taking in 93, 90 percent enemy incoming, constant barrage of attacks, constant barrage of criticisms. We don't give him credit for anything. And he's sitting there about to have peace on the North Korean peninsula. He's solving the problem --
CUOMO: It's getting way ahead of it. Let's hope you're right.
SCARAMUCCI: He's in the process of solving the situation in the Middle East. The economy is rising.
SCARAMUCCI: So let's talk about real economic data. OK, we have the lowest African-American, Hispanic unemployment in the history of those numbers.
CUOMO: But you understand what you're doing. You're saying because he's doing good things, it is OK if he does bad things.
SCARAMUCCI: I'm not saying that. I'm saying that he's counter- punching against a very heavy onslaught of negative incoming that's coming from the mainstream media.
CUOMO: He gets peace on the peninsula, he will get. I said when the first word came out, I said this is a huge if. But if it happens, this is the stuff of a Nobel Peace Prize.
SCARAMUCCI: Well, can I get invited back on that night?
CUOMO: God willing it happens. He doesn't want peace. The problem is this.
SCARAMUCCI: I wanted to get invited on that night.
CUOMO: This is a man and an administration that does what you're doing. It doesn't matter what we do wrong. Look what we do right. And if we do anything wrong, other people do things wrong. And if you say --
SCARAMUCCI: With all due respect, this is the second night on the show. So be super respectful to you.
But what you're saying right now is totally unfair to what I am saying. You're asking me -- you said number one, should the president be a better person? I said, yes. He's got to raise to higher ground and be a better person.
Why is he having a hard time doing that in situations like this? And then I answered it. I said he's having a hard time doing it in situation like this because he's getting a 90 percent incoming of negativity from the media and no one is giving him credit for the success.
CUOMO: But I think it's about something else. I think it's about a relationship with the truth. And I think we see it here where he is saying it's about the anthem. The Eagles -- (CROSSTALK)
SCARAMUCCI: The university still likes you. They're going to give you the PhD in psychiatry.
SCARAMUCCI: I'm not getting the PhD in psychiatry.
CUOMO: Well, truth isn't about psychiatry, it's about facts and respect.
SCARAMUCCI: No, you're trying to explain his personality and his behavior.
CUOMO: It's about whether he tells the truth, Anthony. I don't care about his personality. I care whether he tells the truth to the American people in the matters that are important. That's not psychology.
SCARAMUCCI: You're like everybody else now in the media. Oh, the president is a liar. The president is a liar.
CUOMO: When you lie, why shouldn't you be called a liar?
SCARAMUCCI: Because there are different styles of communication, Chris.
CUOMO: No, lying is not a style of communication. Anthony, please?
SCARAMUCCI: There's different styles of communication. They -- 63.5 million people voted for him because they get the gist of what he's talking about.
CUOMO: No, I think they voted for him despite what they would call in their own lives lying. I think if you were to ask people, if you say that the Eagles are disinvited because of how they protested during the anthem and not one of them kneeled in protest during the anthem, is that telling the truth? No, it's not. It's a lie.
SCARAMUCCI: That's a little bit of gaslighting, because you're talking about last year's NFL. They didn't protest. But I'm talking about the decision that was made by the NFL owners. And then ultimately after that decision, 35 or so of them defected from the invitation to the White House.
CUOMO: They say they defected because they don't like Trump. They think he's misogynistic and a liar and bad for the country. That's why LeBron just said this.
Put up a LeBron James sound.
SCARAMUCCI: OK, we're going to go to LeBron now.
CUOMO: Well, he matters, right?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEBRON JAMES, FORWARD, CLEVELAND CAVALIERS: It's typical of him. I'm not surprised. I know no matter who wins this series, no one wants the invite anyway. So, it won't be Golden State or Cleveland going.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: The message black athletes have received from the president of the United States. You said during the clip, hold on because it was an important context.
SCARAMUCCI: OK, yes.
CUOMO: You said I'm not the one who said shut up and dribble. That was your friend over at Fox. Fox did something else.
SCARAMUCCI: I respect his right --
CUOMO: Right. It's nice. It's nice to hear somebody connected to Trump do that.
SCARAMUCCI: I respect his right to say what's on his mind at a press conference. He has that right. But then you can't say at the same time, if he's saying that, the president doesn't have a right too. It's about symmetry --
CUOMO: It's not just about having a right. It's about how you use your rights. It's about doing what's right.
SCARAMUCCI: Here's what I would say because I like calling balls and strikes.
SCARAMUCCI: If LeBron James is saying that and Stephen Curry is saying that --
CUOMO: And their coaches saying it, too.
SCRAMUCCI: -- and there is a problem with discontent in the United States, the president, OK, before he was president, was a unifying person. He had great relationships with the rap community, great relationships with NFL athletes and African-American athletes. Let's put it back together.
CUOMO: Don't forget the Central Park Five.
SCARAMUCCI: OK, we're going to go back 30 years.
CUOMO: Does that matter? That was before the president --
SCARAMUCCI: And now we're going to back 30, I'm trying to say -- CUOMO: Does it matter or no, Anthony?
SCARAMUCCI: It is his second night on the air. I'm trying to give him something here. You're not --
CUOMO: Listen, how can you that he's a unifier with what he did with te Central Park Five? With what he did with birtherism and Obama? How can you call him a unifier?
SCARAMUCCI: So, here's what happens, OK? And maybe this will never happen to you and maybe you'll be smart enough to never run for office. But if you do run for office, they're going to examine every syllable and every element of your life.
And maybe you're a better person than Donald Trump and maybe you'll come out more perfect than him. But here's what know about him and everybody else, whether it's Bill Clinton, or you pick the president or the political leader, they're flawed people.
CUOMO: Everybody is flawed. I'm probably more flawed than most.
CUOMO: -- but what you do as president. You still have to be judged.
SCARAMUCCI: Chris, this is about getting things -- the American people, Warren Buffett said something that I always apply in investing. I would rather be roughly right than precisely wrong. The American people have looked at the president. They voted for him. They said he will get most things roughly right as opposed to precisely wrong.
CUOMO: He didn't get a majority of the country. He is underwater with his ratings. And I think this divisive --
SCARAMUCCI: All the reason why he didn't get the majority of the country is because that wasn't his strategy. He looked at the playing field.
CUOMO: That was a little bit hindsight, OK? Nobody ever said during the election, that we have this interesting strategy where we're going to lose the majority, but we're going to win anyway.
SCARAMUCCI: I don't know. I was down --
CUOMO: I don't remember that being said. I covered that whole campaign.
SCARAMUCCI: I was on the campaign. I remember going back and forth to Wisconsin thinking that we need to win Wisconsin. CUOMO: I want to check a couple more boxes about --
SCARAMUCCI: The other team didn't to go Wisconsin.
CUOMO: Well, they went. They didn't go -- they made mistakes. That's about going something --
SCARAMUCCI: Secretary Clinton did not go.
CUOMO: He's the president. All right?
SCARAMUCCI: He's the president. Give him a break.
CUOMO: Truth matters, we agree on that.
SCARAMUCCI: My message to the president, assuming that he hate watches your show, and perhaps he does, God willing, my message is to him is hey, you're a healing sort of guy. You can unite. This you can figure it out.
You're a very good strategist. Take step back. If Stephen Curry and LeBron James and a large group of the Philadelphia Eagles are saying the same thing, meet them in the middle. Let's put it back together.
SCARAMUCCI: That would be my message to the president.
CUOMO: Strong message.
SCARAMUCCI: Whether I was in the White House or on your television show.
CUOMO: And remember, it's not just the bold faced names. You have a huge fraction of the African-American community in this country that feels isolated.
SCARAMUCCI: Thirteen percent of the population is African-American. We got to put the country together. We got to bring the country together.
CUOMO: This is not a way to do it.
SCARAMUCCI: But he also would say, though, listen, my economic policies are really helping people. We got the latest rates of unemployment in those communities.
CUOMO: But what you say about culture and who matters and why they matter and what freedom matters as well. And truth matters most.
Sadler, Kelly Sadler is let go today.
SCARAMUCCI: Yes, disappointed in that.
CUOMO: All right. When she said what she said about John McCain, the joke about, well, he is going to, you know, die anyway, why does he matter? The White House never came out and said that's wrong. They said it's an internal matter. They then get rid of her. It comes out, they still don't say what she said was wrong.
And now we find out the reason she was fired is not because of what she said about John McCain. It's because she reportedly said that Mercedes Schlapp was the leaker and they fired her over that.
CUOMO: Do you respect all that?
SCARAMUCCI: Well, let me say a couple things about Kelly Sadler. She was a very hard working person. She was extremely loyal to the president.
There are factions inside that communications team have been pea shooting at each other since the day they joined the communications team. And it required leadership to knit that team together and to think about it the way a corporate merger would go down. And since that did not happen, a faction on the right, a faction on the left, were shooting at each other and someone had it out for Kelly Sadler, because that was a sorry joke. It's an unforgivable statement. I'm not here suggesting the statement was OK.
What I am suggesting as somebody that's has run a pretty decent corporation, that when you're sitting in the inner sanctum, and somebody says something like that, to run outside the sanctum and rat on that person, I think that's a terrible thing to do to the person.
CUOMO: Right. Only difference is, not a private concern. White House, they work for the people. This is America's standards.
SCARAMUCCI: Hold on a second. Yes.
CUOMO: Last words to you.
SCARAMUCCI: But somebody could have simply said, hey, bad thing to say. Let's drop it right here. But they had it out for her. So, they've got to go outside. Get their cell phone and anonymously rat her out.
Why not do what do I? Say hey, this is how I feel about the situation. I dislike Kelly Sadler. I'm going to tell you what she said about John McCain. Nobody did that, because it's Washington, Chris, and that's why the people don't like Washington.
CUOMO: That's also about --
CUOMO: A White House that doesn't embrace speaking truth to the American people. SCARAMUCCI: The president wears a lot on his sleeve. That's why a
lot of people like the president still, Chris.
CUOMO: Anthony Scaramucci --
SCARAMUCCI: Great to be here.
CUOMO: You are helpful to the show.
SCARAMUCCI: And Kelly Sadler is going to get a great job because she's a great person.
CUOMO: Well, listen, glad to hear that.
SCARAMUCCI: I don't know the other people.
CUOMO: We'll see what happens. We haven't heard anything from the White House about it. We'll see if they can confirm this.
CUOMO: But I can confirm this right now, you're important on the show. You're important to the dialogue. Thank you for being with us.
SCARAMUCCI: I'm happy to be here.
CUOMO: Appreciate that. Anthony Scaramucci.
SCARAMUCCIU: You got to make my seat a little higher next time, guys. I got to --
CUOMO: They don't make a seat that high. But you can have --
SCARAMUCCI: I got to be at a little bit of an advantage.
CUOMO: Next, Bill Clinton -- it never ends. Bill Clinton ends nothing. He gets a redo on the Monica Lewinsky question, and whether Me Too has changed his mind about anything he did. And here's the question: did his answer, which we'll play for you, did it make things better or worse?
And as I hope you know by now, this show is about getting after what is right and wrong. And I come wind up on both sides of that. So, follow me on Twitter and the show and tell me where you think I have it wrong and I'll respond, ahead.
Not you, Anthony.
CUOMO: Welcome back to CUOMO PRIME TIME.
It's time for the great debate. It's no cacophony of voices. We have strong voices on two sides of an issue and then we get after it.
Joining us now for more on this White House war against the NFL, we got Van Jones and David Urban.
Night two of the show. Gentlemen, thank you for being part of it.
DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thanks for having me.
CUOMO: All right. Brother Urban, the president disinviting the Eagles. Is this another play at dividing the country along racial lines at a minimum?
URBAN: Chris, come on. Not even close. I know -- listen, the Eagles chose to make this a political issue.
The president invited them. They could have come down. They could have stood there. They could have celebrated like all teams have done in the past.
But they chose to draw a line in the sand and not come because of what this president has said before in the past, because of his political views, Chris. The Eagles chose to make this a political issue, not the president.
CUOMO: But why is it OK then that the president couldn't be better, couldn't elevate himself -- and remember that he's president.
URBAN: Chris, 10 are coming, Chris.
CUOMO: And in front of the people's house, he disinvites them?
URBAN: Because 10 people are coming. He pantsed the Eagles before they pantsted him.
CUOMO: Van Jones, is this a pantsing? Or is it something worse?
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, it's completely ridiculous. First of all, let's just be very clear what happened here. The president of the United States decides to punish the entire team because some of the members didn't want to come.
CUOMO: Hold on. Go ahead.
JONES: He's punishing the entire team because some of the people didn't want to come. But the people he's punishing who didn't want to come didn't even do what they said he did because they didn't even kneel. He is so far down the rabbit hole of crazy on this. And what comes down to is, there is a resentment here against the NFL.
And listen, nobody -- by the way, I got to say this. Nobody was happier than me, by the way, when Philadelphia won, because Tom "Shady" Brady, who deflated balls and is somehow a hero, gets to play, and Colin Kaepernick who never did anything but try on stick up for civil rights, can't even get on the field. So, when Tom "Shady" Brady went down, and this is -- a lot of African-
Americans were very happy when Philadelphia won and there's a racial dynamic here, a racial dimension here about the fact that Philadelphi and Trump had this beef. And I am -- but it's outrageous for him, outrageous for Trump to punish the whole team for something that nobody on the team even did.
CUOMO: All right. Back to you, Urban. But let's get some context.
URBAN: Yes, sure.
CUOMO: First of all, to the extent the Brady is relevant here, he didn't show up at the White House. He had family issues last time that they won.
The team showed up. Some of them chose not to go. They didn't get this treatment. Why the distinction?
And you called it pantsing. My friend, this is why I gave you the downward look. These are heavy issues.
URBAN: Chris, I get it.
CUOMO: If you don't practice patriotism the way I like it, you're bad. You're son of a bitch. You should get out of the country.
URBAN: No, Christ, no, it isn't, Chris.
CUOMO: That is dangerous talk for a president in a country that's about tolerance.
URBAN: Listen, I believe in the players' ability to protest, their right to protest, right? I think we need to get past the protest and make some progress. If I were the NFL Players Association, I'd be working to try to get some sort of reforms rather than continuing to protest on the sidelines. I don't know what that gets you.
Let me just say, though, pick up the point that Anthony made before, earlier on the show. The National Anthem is about two minutes about, 120 seconds, depending on who sings it. If we can't as a nation agree to stand and be silent and think about that.
CUOMO: Oh, come. On the flag is a symbol of freedom.
URBAN: Chris, stop, no, no, stop for a second. Do you see this pin on my lapel here?
URBAN: It's Johnny Mac Soldiers Fund.
CUOMO: Actually no. We got the election countdown up in front of it. Now, I see it. What is it?
URBAN: So, I'm wearing the pint of Johnny Mac Soldiers Fund. I was at West Point today with my classmates honoring my classmate John McCue who was killed by a terrorist bomber.
Do you know what his coffin was wrapped with, Chris? The American flag. People take --
CUOMO: God bless their sacrifice. God bless them for protecting our freedom. But you don't play that card. That's jingoism.
URBAN: No, it's not jingoism.
CUOMO: That's jingoism. That's what it is. You're telling certain people --
URBAN: Do you believe patriotism is jingoism? That's what you're saying.
CUOMO: Of course not. But I'm saying, when you pervert it and when you say that if you're not the kind of patriot that I want you to be, that you're somehow inamical of the cause here. And that's dangerous stuff.
CUOMO: Van Jones -- hold on a second. We heard you on this. Let's bounce it back.
CUOMO: Van, the reason I wanted to do this tonight is it ain't about football, OK? And it's not about the flag. This started as a social protest when they started to kneel. Nobody has ever said I'm anti- flag.
They said it is hard for me to honor the flag right now and honor our country when there are issues I'm so against that are against what this country is about. That's where it started. It was never a protest of the flag but that's what Trump has made it and his allies like our friend on the show right now.
Is that fair?
URBAN: Oh, come on.
JONES: It's not fair. And I'll tell you -- I'm a ninth generation American, Chris. A ninth generation American. I'm the first person in my family that was born with all my rights recognized by this government.
My father was a veteran. My family members have served in this country. I don't need anybody to tell me what this flag means and what it represents. People in my family, people who look like me have put blood in the ground, have put martyrs in the dirt in this country, to have it be liberty and justice for all.
And it is beyond insulting, beyond insulting for people to lecture us about patriotism. We've done more --
JONES: No, no. You had your chance.
URBAN: Go ahead.
JONES: Listen, there is a level of patronizing, not from you but from this White House and from others, that somehow African-Americans are ungrateful, that we somehow don't know what this country is about. We have fought in every war. We have sacrificed more for that Constitution than most people.
And if this man Colin Kaepernick can't kneel because a veteran, you're talking about veterans, it was a veteran that told him to kneel. He was just sitting on his butt and the veteran said that was wrong. And Colin Kaepernick learned, and Colin Kaepernick tried to grow, and Colin Kaepernick tried to do what they told him to do, and he still doesn't have a job and it's wrong.
If you can't say it's wrong, then there's something wrong with you.
URBAN: Van, so, listen, wouldn't it be better if Colin Kaepernick were able to get the owners, and get the police, and get out in the community, and see --
JONES: He tried.
URBAN: Right, and wouldn't it be better if all those players took all that energy and put it to progress?
CUOMO: Yes, hold on. Let's get a counter point.
This is -- by the way, first of all, with everything that's going on in this country right now, I like how this conversation is going. You're being reasonable. You're making your points and I like it.
JONES: But here, you know, Brother Urban, as you get called on this show all the time, because we do love you and we do respect you. But one thing that has been left out of the right wing media coverage is that Colin Kaepernick has put millions of dollars and challenged other celebrities to put millions into the neighborhoods.
He's not just talking the walk. He's walking the walk. Why can't that be --
URBAN: Why don't we talk about that?
JONES: I would love to talk about it, but here's the thing --
CUOMO: Why won't the president talk about it though? And listen, look, I think it's important to keep, who we're talking about and who we're not.
Dave, I know that you agree with a lot of what Van is saying. I know that as a veteran and somebody who respects the freedoms of this country, you know we're all about tolerance. We're all about letting people express the way that they want. That's why I'm worried about this, because that's not what the president is doing.
JONES: There are restrictions on speech in a lot of instances, right? I'm not saying this is one of them.
CUOMO: And the NFL has their right to say how their employees do what they do and they're figuring that. But that's not what the president is playing at here. It's not what he's playing at.
He is making it about the -- these guys don't respect the flag. He calls them sons of bitches. He says they shouldn't be in the country.
Who is they? Who is they that he's talking about?
This is not uniting. He was supposed to be a uniter. You told me he would be a uniter during the campaign.
URBAN: I never said he was a uniter. That was me.
CUOMO: Oh, it was you. You're not easy to mistake, my friend. Head shape alone, I'll never forget who you are.
URBAN: Pull the tape, I know I got a big -- I'm not like Van. I'm not like a good-looking --
CUOMO: Both guys -- you guys both have good shaped heads. It's what is in them that I'm worried about right now.
Do you believe this is the right move? Disinvite the team.
CUOMO: Say that they're opposition, say that they've wrong, say that they're not American.
URBAN: Listen, Chris, it wasn't the president who decided -- the president invited the team. On May 31, 80-plus members of the Philadelphia Eagles were showing up. On June 1st, it was done to a handful of people, OK?
The Eagles made the choice here. Not the president. JONES: But, listen, I just think this is -- I see it very, very
differently. What the president is saying is that this is about the disrespect and the protesting. And the problem that you have is that those players, the ones who didn't come, the ones who wanted to come, none of them kneeled in protest.
URBAN: I don't disagree with that point.
CUOMO: Because they don't like him, that's why he's --
URBAN: That's why they didn't come. They don't agree with his politics.
CUOMO: And on that basis, he disinvited them, even though it's not his house. It's our house. He is supposed to represent everybody in this country. He's supposed to represent tolerance.
And I don't know why he's not doing it.
URBAN: Chris, do you, like Van, do you think if the president invited LeBron and folks to come to the White House and sit-down, do you think they'd show up?
CUOMO: Right now, no. We've got LeBron James. His sound is all over the place. He's saying as an African-American athlete, I feel alienated by this thing.
URBAN: But if he said, but to your point, Chris, if he said, come on in, we're going to sit down and talk about this, would they go?
JONES: Listen, I don't know that they wouldn't go, honestly. You know, we've had conversations with some of the players. They said if you want to talk about something serious like criminal justice reform, and some of these issues, I think some of them would come.
Listen, at some point -- let me say this, let me say this. I think the president of the United States has an opportunity to turn a break- down into a breakthrough. Disinviting people and using it as a political weapon may be short term pain -- of gain for him, but is a long term pain for the country.
But if he wants to have a conversation, don't forget, these young guys who are 23, 24 years old, every Thanksgiving, they go back to neighborhoods where nothing has gotten better from either party. Neither party has made anything better in those neighborhoods. He could sit down and talk with these guys. But instead, the grandstanding is short term gain, long term pain.
CUOMO: Last word and I want to get to another topic. Go ahead.
URBAN: So, Van, I would say -- so, Van, I would suggest, right? Maybe around prison reform. You get a bunch of folks together, not around the flag. You take folks in. Show what the president is doing. He is not the devil incarnate as many think. And he's looking to do good things to the African-American community on prison reform and other things, and I think could you be, you would be the tip of the spear on that one.
CUOMO: Look, that's the whole point. Really, that's what the president's role is, find the common ground, take action upon it.
URBAN: And that would be common ground, and I think Van is a person who is respected on both sides who could do that.
CUOMO: Van Jones is a good man. I watch his show. It's a good show.
But what I'm saying is, the president shouldn't need a proxy to reach out to Americans.
URBAN: No, it's not a proxy, because we just -- as I just asked. If the president put the invite out and said, LeBron, come on in --
CUOMO: Well, that's different. Let's see if that happens.
URBAN: He said he wouldn't go.
CUOMO: And then we'll take the next step. In fact, we'll make it a cause right here on the show. We'll all do it together. That would be great. I would love to have it. I would take time every night to follow it to its fruition.
Let me ask you two more quick things. First one, Betsy DeVos. Let's play the sound.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D), VERMONT: Will your commission look at the role of firearms as it relates to gun violence in our schools?
BETSY DEVOS, SECRETARY OF EDUCATION: That is not part of the commissioner's charge per see.
LEAHY: I see. So you're studying gun violence but not considering the role of guns.
DEVOS: We're actually studying school safety and how we can ensure our students are safe.
LEAHY: Well --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Van, if you had hair, would you pull it out over this? You're not going to look at guns? Whether you want to look at who gets guns and how we control it better, or whether or not you think more guns are the solution, certainly you can't ignore the role of the weapon in this equation. How do you justify it? JONES: What she said is even worse than that. But what she said is
even worse than that. She said we won't even study it.
JONES: So, listen, that means even if a comprehensive clear headed study would say, guess what, none of these gun regulations make bit of difference, don't do them. Even if the study would validate your point of view, you aren't even willing to have the study? That gives you a whole -- that's a whole different level of dysfunction at the top of our government where you won't even want to have facts that may prove you right. There's something wrong with that.
URBAN: Now, look, guys, I'll push back on this a bit.
URBAN: I don't think that Secretary DeVos said they're not going to look at that. I think what she said is she's going to take a look at things that are under their control, right? Gun violence is a obviously a huge issue in schools, so is mental health preparedness, mental health awareness, mental health funding.
URBAN: Bullying. There are lots of root problems that need to be studied to figure out what's happening here.
As I've mentioned to you, Chris, and others, you know, when you and I were growing up, and Van, we were growing up as kids, I grew up in western Pennsylvania. Guns were abundant and plentiful. No one went to school and shot anybody.
What's changed in America? Guns have become less available in America now and violence has increased. Something has changed. Something needs to be done, something to be looked at.
JONES: So, study -- so why not study all of it?
CUOMO: Just to be clear, from a fact perspective, gentlemen, she said it's not part of the charge of this commission.
URBAN: Right. And that committee is designed to do something --
CUOMO: But I'm saying, how can you have a committee that studies school shootings and not deal the shooting element?
URBAN: No, no, it's worse than that. Why was the commission formed in the first place?
CUOMO: It sounds better when you said it, but I said the same thing. URBAN: If you push the question back and listen what Senator Leahy
asked her, he asked whether 18-year-olds should be able to purchase AR-15s. That was the question that prompted that exchange.
CUOMO: But we still wound up in the same place. Look, here's your point --
URBAN: She said, look, it's not my job. It's the Congress' job.
CUOMO: No, but look, it's --
URBAN: It's Senator Leahy and his colleagues.
CUOMO: And it shows the commission isn't set one the integrity it should have been, especially if you're going to offer it up as solution for the problem. Here's all I'm saying. There's a lot of common ground when it comes to making the schools safer. We know that.
And if we're going to hide from the entire issue of gun violence by just looking at school shootings when they're only about 1.5 percent of the problem, then you at least should take it very seriously. We don't seem to be doing that.
URBAN: Chris, I'd say take a look at Sandy Hook Promise. Great organization.
CUOMO: It is a great organization.
URBAN: Great organization out of Newtown.
CUOMO: It is but our government should be -- our government should be in the lead. Not hiding.
URBAN: I agree.
CUOMO: All right. Now, last piece of sound. Our former President Clinton made a lot of waves of the wrong kind by saying he wouldn't do anything different where Monica Lewinsky was involved. That Me Too hadn't really changed his disposition.
Stephen Colbert gave a redo. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT: Here's what I want to say -- it wasn't my finest hour, but the important thing is, that was a very painful thing that happened 20 years ago. And I apologized to my family, to Monica Lewinsky and her family, to the American people.
I meant it then. I meant it now. I've had to live with the consequences every day since. And I still believe this Me Too Movement is long overdue, necessary, and should be supported.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Reaction from both. Dave Urban, did he make it better or worse?
URBAN: He made it better. Look, I mean, he got a redo. I take him at face value. And he said what he said, and made it better.
CUOMO: Van Jones?
JONES: Look, I work with a lot of young guys who make mistakes. And the one thing we want them to say is the pain I caused. Not this happened, the incident, whatever. And I think that that was -- you know, I would have wanted him to say, at the first time and the second time, I'm never going to stop apologizing. I will never stop apologizing to my country, to my wife, to whatever and just own it and then be that great example for other guys in similar situations.
I think he came up way short the last time. If he were one of the young guys in my programs, I would still be coaching him to take more responsibility.
URBAN: Van, he made it much better than the first time.
CUOMO: Fine, but we're about progress, right? And this is something where the pain that has been caused to others by people in his position is what we want to highlight --
URBAN: Well, the question still remains, did he apologize personally to Monica Lewinsky?
CUOMO: Well, he said no. He said that he did it outright (ph).
But let me tell you something. Brother Urban, Brother Jones, you're making this show better. You're making us fulfill our mandate of helping people to get after what's right and wrong. Thank you for doing it on the second night of the show.
URBAN: Thanks for having me.
JONES: Appreciate that.
CUOMO: All right. Ahead, we did politics. We also have to do policy. The president's latest move on trade has people very angry within his own party and the other party. We have the man who is telling him this is the right thing to do.
We're very luck to have Peter Navarro. Let's test the message, next.
CUOMO: All right. So, this is a big deal.
Is the United States spoiling to start a trade war with friends and foes? If so, we would have never really seen anything like this in the modern era. It could it flip the balance of power that we've known in a generation.
So, let's break it down. I know it can seem very complex, but there are some simple points. All right? We do it right here on a white board.
All right. We have our friends, Canada, Mexico, U.K., Germany, among others where we've tried to have beneficial alliances.
Now, we've had our traditional foes. North Korea, obviously, and China. China is really the big one when you're looking at unfair trade practices. When you're looking at theft of intellectual property and uneven playing fields in general, they're the main malefactor to the United States.
But now, we have this weird thing where you have these two swapping sides. You have the United States saying, we're going to give these guys a very hard time. We're going to figure out how to make it a little easier. Why? Why would we do this?
Well, the president says, because I'm strong and this has been too weak for too long, our intellectual property, our workers, where we have to deal with tariffs abroad. I'm going to fix it all and I'm going to do it at once. Very dicey.
What's the proof of that? Ironically, this man has already achieved something unheard of right now in our country -- unity among Republicans and Democrats. They really are in big numbers, united against the plan. They say this double bicep flex of these two arms of this plan is actually very weak.
So the case needs to be made to you. Let's do it with somebody who knows it very well. OK? The
White House trade adviser Peter Navarro is here on PRIME TIME.
Sir, good to have you on the show.
PETER NAVARRO, DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF TRADE & MANUFACTURING POLICY: Sir, you've got to spend a little bit more money for a better board there. Get digital, dude.
CUOMO: I like the low tech. But you know what? This is the least of my problems. But I'll take it under advisement.
Help me with the first part --
NAVARRO: By the way, congratulations. The set looks great. I think your show is going to be great. So congratulations.
CUOMO: Thank you. High praise appreciated. Good to have you be part of it. Let's get after it on this.
The idea of invoking trade measures that are negative against friends and foes at the same time, why a good idea?
NAVARRO: So let's start with first principles here. We have steel and aluminum tariffs that went into place for one simple reason.
As President Trump has said, without steel and aluminum industries in this country, we don't have a country. And so, the challenge we faced from a policy point of view is how do you do that?
And the problem is that we had is we have about 20 countries flooding our markets with steel, about 15 flooding our markets with aluminum. So tariffs were the answer.
And these tariffs are not aimed at any individual country, whether it is a strategic rival like China, or an ally and friend like Canada. They're simply a defensive measure in order to bring about a strong stand. And we have that, Chris.
I mean, it's important to note that since those tariffs were announced, we've had $150 billion investment in Hawesville, Kentucky, by Century Aluminum. We've had new plants opening in Granite City, Illinois by U.S. Steel just on Friday.
CUOMO: All right.
NAVARRO: We had a $1.5 billion rolling mill, aluminum rolling mill, in Appalachian. Just a great achievement by this administration.
CUOMO: But let's test it a little bit, Peter.
CUOMO: The idea of, we'll make our own and that will make up for the imbalance. You know that that is a minority theory among the economics --
NAVARRO: The imbalance, what were you referring to?
CUOMO: Whatever shortcoming there is because of the tariffs. Whatever supply we lose, it's OK. We'll make up for it with more jobs here at home, the companies here will be revitalized. That is an ambitious proposal because you have two other effects of these tariffs.
Let's just deal with the economics and then we'll get to the politics.
CUOMO: One is you raise prices. They get passed along.
NAVARRO: This is the down stream -- the alleged downstream effect. Sure.
CUOMO: Well, you know, that is part of the economic theory. And the second one is, they find other markets. So do you this to the Chinese and they just sell the same properties and, you know, a very transferable market to other places. They'll still make their money.
So, how do we win? NAVARRO: So, we don't care if China makes their money or Canada makes their money. What we care about, Chris, is simply having viable steel and aluminum industries. For the last ten years, these industries have lost over 50,000 jobs. They haven't earned a positive rate of return to speak of.
NAVARRO: So, that's all we're trying to here.
CUOMO: But why would you do it this way, right? Because you're saying this is a national security issue.
NAVARRO: Well, the best way to do is it through tariffs. Really. I mean, it works.
Let's look at results here, Chris. We turn these two industries around in a heartbeat. And we've seen all this investment flooding. The same thing happened with solar tariffs and dish washers. I mean, everyone talked about price effects. And instead, what we've gotten is an influx of investment.
And, by the way, the additional cost that you get from the tariffs on steel and aluminum in automobile is about the cost of a luxury floor mat, it's nothing. It's a penny for a beer can.
So, I think the president is doing exactly the right thing on this issue. And the allies that are complaining -- I mean, we can go down the list and talk about how Germany's taking advantage of us, how Canada's taking advantage of us and all of that.
CUOMO: I understand, but from a political perspective, I mean, you can lay out the economics of it and say, we think it will work out this way to our benefit, but it's a cost-benefit analysis, right, and the politics here are going to loom large. And you have the allies who aren't happy. You have a chance of retaliation by the Chinese and others, which is being suggested by all of them, which exactly create a national security issue. I don't know that you articulated one well, but now, you may have one because you're doing this and you have your own party.
Let's listen to sound from them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BOB CORKER (R), TENNESSEE: He's abusing the authorities given to him. He seems to want to punish our allies and befriend our enemies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trade wars and dividing us from our allies makes no sense.
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MAJORITY LEADER: I am nervous about getting into trade wars.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's dangerous when you go in and start picking winners and losers. SEN. PAT TOOMEY (R), PENNSYLVANIA: The president has very strong held
views on trade policy. I disagree with them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Those are your people, even Mitch McConnell. He like never disagrees with the president on anything and they're all saying, they don't like it. Where's the support?
NAVARRO: So, the president, President Donald J. Trump, basically is supporting American workers and American people. That's who his constituency is.
And you know what's interesting about the job reports on Friday, Chris, is it was a complete validation of economic policy that basically said, you know, there's millions of Americans on the sidelines by globalization that are destitute and hurt. There are over 3 million jobs that Trump's policies have created since the first 500 days. Almost a million of them were people who weren't in the work force, who weren't being counted because they were so discouraged.
And the president is proud of that, frankly. His tax policies, regulation policies, and trade policies are working. So, this is what the president stands for and this is what we're working towards.
And, you know, the bigger thing, Chris, because I know time's short. The other thing we should drill down on is the China issue, because the president wants to defend our technologies and intellectual properties. China's taking it in four different ways. They steal it. They forced a transfer --
CUOMO: That's absolutely true. And let's do this -- let's have you come back so we can drill on it. It's not a quick conversation.
CUOMO: And, obviously, what's going on with ZTE, their big telecom company which is a major thief when it comes to our intellectual property, they seem like they're just getting a break from the White House. So, let's drill on that again. I'll invite you back and do it because the conversation matters.
NAVARRO: All right, Chris.
CUOMO: Thank you very much for taking the opportunity. Appreciate it.
All right. Don Lemon standing by. He's got a preview of "CNN TONIGHT," which is just minutes away.
Don, always a pleasure. What do you have?
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR, CNN TONIGHT: Yes, listen, I'm not going to keep you long. I just want this quote, maybe you'll know who is from.
I believe that progress and real change happens in this world when we reach across a divide, you build a bridge, you swallow your pride, and you open your mind, you embrace what you don't understand and ultimately you surrender.
Do you need who wrote those words?
CUOMO: Who is it?
LEMON: That is the man who advised Colin Kaepernick to kneel instead of sitting.
CUOMO: A veteran.
LEMON: He is a former Army Green Beret. He's an NFL player, he is white. He was offended because Colin was sitting on the bench. And he said, hey, listen, I'm in the military, I'm offended by that.
Guess what? Colin Kaepernick ahs already compromised. He instead of sitting on the bench, he took a knee. Perhaps someone in the White House should take note from that. He's going to be on our show tonight and he's going to talk to us about that.
CUOMO: Provocative, I'll be watching. Don lemon, thank you.
CUOMO: Now, earlier in the show, I told you this was a two-way street. We're getting after what's right and wrong, sometimes you'll think I'm right, sometimes you'll think I'm wrong.
Well, let's start that combo tonight. You disagree with anything I've said, get on social media, follow me on Twitter, follow the show. You get the floor, next.
CUOMO: All right. We can all be right and wrong. The problem is we're not disagreeing with decency.
So, let's get after that right now, something I affectionately call, "Tell Me Where I'm Wrong." Why? Because I work for you, so we should do this.
Let's get to the tweet. Chris Cuomo, the only journalist who questions are longer than anyone's responses. Motor mouth.
Fair criticism. I'll work on it.
Next. Steve tweeted: Great show, Rudy was odd. I swear he should have said forget about it, Chris, your facial expression for almost but not quite at the level of Jake Tapper.
First of all, never compare my face to Jake Tapper. He's much more handsome. And second of all, worry about the content. And DJ Duffy tweeted: Great show Chris. That's not telling me I'm wrong. Please tell me you will not be wearing the same -- first of all, this tweet is for my executive producer. Her name is I won't tell you. Figure it out yourself.
All right. Those are the tweets for now. We'll do better going forward I promise you do that.
We're going to go one-on-one with right and left for you tomorrow down in D.C. White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders, Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer.
That's it for us. Let's get after it again tomorrow night.