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A Taxi Ran Through A Crowd In Central Moscow; White House Is Blaming Democrats For Separating Parents And Children Of Undocumented Immigrants; President Trump Has Repeatedly And Openly Expressed Admiration For Strongmen; Trump Heaps Praise On Dictator Kim Jong-un; North Korean Refugee Ate Mice To Survive; Surviving North Korea's Brutal Regime; WH Cites Bible To Defend Child Separation Border Policy; Two Deputies Dead After Being Shot At Kansas Courthouse. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired June 16, 2018 - 20:00   ET



[20:00:13] ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: It's 8:00 here in New York, 7:00 in the evening in McAllen, Texas. I'm Ana Cabrera. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. So glad you are with us this weekend.

And something disgraceful is happening, something that can be stopped, and it's on the U.S. border with Mexico. Families are being torn apart, thousands of them. U.S. immigration officials are taking kids of all ages away from their parents if they are caught undocumented crossing the border.

In just the past few weeks since May, the number of kids now being kept in so-called detention centers has shot up to around 2,000. President Trump on one hand says he hates to see what's happening on the border but on the other hand he claims that ending it is out of his control.

Now, that part is not true. The President today, put this growing humanitarian crisis in a political frame, tweeting this.

Democrats can fix their forced family break-up at the border by working with Republicans on new legislation for a change. This is why we need more Republicans elected in November. Democrats are good at only three things, high taxes, high crime and obstruction, sad.

CNN's Ed Lavandera is with me now near the U.S. border.

Ed, you have been talking with these families. Parents have watched their children taken from them. Tell me about Jonathan Ariel, that 11-year-old boy you found on the ground. Where are his parents? And what is happening to him this weekend?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, he was one of these -- one young man, a young boy, 11 years old, traveling with a group of six people, two adult women with their children and then Jonathan Ariel who was traveling by himself. He told me he had come with Honduras. That he had come with cousins, that he had a mother living in Virginia. His mother had told him not to make the journey but he did it anyway with his cousins. Then his cousins abandoned him along the way. That's why he crossed the border alone.

So he is technically considered what immigration officials call an unaccompanied minor. And those types of immigrants have been put into these detention centers for some time.

I was able to speak with his mother and she told me that right after he was taken into custody, that he did call her and was told that, over this weekend, that they would make connection with her to try to figure out the reunification process. But last I have heard from his mother, no phone call has come today as far as we know at this point.

CABRERA: Wow. Tough to hear those words and to know what's going on for a child as young as 11, Ed. We are also hearing about some events happening tomorrow there. What do you know?

LAVANDERA: Right. As the backlash against the Trump administration's zero tolerance policy really starting to pick up. And here Sunday in McGowan, Texas, in the south Texas valley, there are a number of -- there is a congressional delegation that will be coming here tomorrow and visiting various border patrol facilities and immigration facilities here along the border as well. There's a vigil planned and also the Democratic representative from Texas, from the El Paso, Texas area who is running against Republican senator Ted Cruz for the Texas Senate seat. Congressman by the name Beto O'Rourke. He is organizing a march toward that newly opened detention facility in far west Texas, to protest that as well. And this is expected to continue here throughout this coming week as the voices and the chorus of anger and frustration with this policy seems to start growing much louder.

CABRERA: We know that Beto O'Rourke will be on with Jake Tapper tomorrow morning on "STATE OF THE UNION" as well.

Ed Lavandera, at the Texas border, thank you.

The Trump administration is defending separating these families saying it's the law.


SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Because it's the law and that's what the law states. It's a moral policy to follow and enforce the law. These laws are the same that have been on the books for over a decade and the President is simply enforcing them. Again, the laws are the ones that have been on the books for over a decade and the President is enforcing them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's not a policy change to enforce the law.

SANDERS: Our administration has had the same position since we started on day one that we were going to enforce the law. We are a country of law and order and we are enforcing the law and protecting our borders.


CABRERA: And here's the President. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Democrats forced that law upon our nation. I hate it. I hate to see separation of parents and children.


CABRERA: Here's the thing though. There is no law that says parents and children must be separated at the border. It's a practice that the President says he hates but his administration is choosing to enforce.

Here is the proof. This is a notice from attorney general Jeff Sessions dated April 5th. In it, Sessions announces the administration's new zero tolerance policy.

And part of it reads quote "Congress has failed to pass effective legislation that serves the national interest that closes dangerous loopholes and fully funds a wall along the southern border. As a result, a crisis has erupted at our southwest border. And necessitates an escalated effort to prosecute those who choose to illegally cross our border.

And that last line is important because U.S. policy does allow children to be separated from their parents if their parents are being criminally prosecuted. This new zero tolerance policy under the Trump administration means virtually everyone is being prosecuted, including a number of people applying for asylum, which is legal.

So how can this practice the President claims to hate be corrected? According to the White House, it's not up to them to stop enforcing their own policy. It's up to the Democrats.


[20:05:51] TRUMP: The Democrats can come to us as they actually are in all fairness, we are talking to them, and they can change the whole border security.

We are willing to change it today if they want to get in and negotiate but they just don't want to negotiate. They are afraid of -- they are afraid of security for our country. They are afraid of a wall.

SANDERS: The President has actually called on Democrats in Congress to fix those loopholes. The Democrats have failed to come to the table, failed to help this President close these loopholes and fix this problem.


CABRERA: To clarify here, the White House is blaming Democrats for not changing a policy that the White House is choosing to enforce. It's their own policy. Instead, the White House says Democrats need to come to the table and negotiate apparently using the families and children as bargaining chips. However, Democrats and Republicans have approached the President with multiple bipartisan immigration bills over the last year. Many of which included some funding for Trump's wall. And he has rejected them all. In fact, there's a Republican immigration bill expected to be voted on this coming week. It is a compromise between conservative and moderate Republicans and sticks to the President's four pillars. Now, a few days ago, speaker Paul Ryan said the President was excited about this but then on Friday President Trump said this.


TRUMP: I certainly wouldn't have signed --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What does the bill --?

TRUMP: I need a bill that gives this country tremendous border security. I have to have that.


CABRERA: Now the White House says the President was confused by the question and he does plan to sign the bill if it makes it to his desk. We will of course see if that happens next week.

So one last time, to wrap this all up, the President is enforcing a policy, his own administration's policy, even though he says he hates it, and even though it is his administration's power to stop it if he wanted to.

Yet, he says separating families is the Democrat's fault because Democrats want come to the table and negotiate on immigration, even though they have. Another chat with that.

I want to bring in my next guest, Republican congressman Will Hurd of Texas. He toured a facility last night and he is joining us now live.

Congressman, thank you for being here with us. First, what is your impression of this center that you had a chance to look at?

REP. WILL HURD (R), TEXAS: Well, we went there last night about 9:30. It's in my district. And to me, it makes it very clear that in the home of the free and land of the brave, we should not be using kids as a deterrent policy. This is something I think is actually unacceptable and is something that as Americans we shouldn't be doing. And this really isn't a Republican or Democratic issue. This is an issue about how should you treat children. And that's something that I saw last night.

CABRERA: And that's why I think a lot of people are outraged for one, and also baffled about why the President, who he says hates what he sees happening, has continued to allow it to happen.

HURD: Well, this is clearly something that the administration can change. They don't need legislation to change it. They don't need Democrats in order to change it. This is a department of justice policy. And this is something that's being enacted by HHS. One of the things I did learn when I was there was there's still a lot

of questions that are unanswered about what is actually going on. The kids in Tornio are 16-year-old and 17-year-old boys. These are kids that have been in other facilities in other parts of the country that have been moved to this facility in order for room to be made for the kids that are being separated from their parents.

Now, the question that I have had for HHS is how do the parents that are separated from their kids know where their kids are? How does the kids know where their parents are? How long is this policy going to last? Is it having the intended effect that the administration wanted to have?

There's a lot of folks that aren't talking to one another within the administration, on the ground, in El Paso. There's a lot of people that didn't know what it was, indeed, going on at this one facility and knew even less about the policies that were -- that were generating this kind of behavior.

And ultimately, you know, what we need to be doing to secure our border. It is 2018. We don't have operational control of our border. But we shouldn't use a fourth century tool like a 30-foot high concrete structure and tent cities to solve a 21st century problem. We need additional immigration judges in order to apply consequences to people that are violating the law.

There are alternative forms of detention that have proven to be more effective and a lot cheaper to that. Those are the kinds of things we should be looking at. Where was the analysis that was done by HHS and DOJ when they decided to take this one path over others? These are still some of the questions that I have even after having toured this facility.

[20:10:55] CABRERA: So you just laid out a lot of questions and a lot of ideas and points in there. First, is that immigration the bigger immigration legislation that I know Congress is working on? So I'll ask you about that in the follow up.

But getting back to just this issue at hand with the children and parents being separated at the border and now being dispersed to different detention facilities or holding facilities, whatever you want to call them. You talked about Tornillo, Texas, and this temporary facility that has been erected there, and you don't have the answers to the questions that you were asking about whether the federal officials who are doing the separation are now tracking where the families are going and have a sense of whether they are even in contact with each other, when the parents and children are separated?

HURD: That's correct. And that's an issue that folks back in Washington, D.C. have to figure out.

Let me be clear. The Tornillo facility has 16-year-old and 17-year- old boys that are considered unaccompanied minors. When they came into this country, they were by themselves. And they were in other facilities that were state approved and state run. And they got taken out of those facilities and moved to Tornillo. So on site in Tornillo, there are folks that are working with them on trying to find a family member, whether in the United States or back in their home country. They have access to pro-bono legal services and things like that.

But this is a symptom of a larger problem and that larger problem is that we are taking kids out of the hands of their family. We know from October 2017 to April of this year, there were 700 kids that were separated from their parents. One hundred of those were kids that were under the age of four. And so they were taken away probably for the first time to be away from their mother and father. I don't know who -- I don't think anybody thinks that's an acceptable behavior in an industrialized country.

And so we also know that over the last two months that DOJ has separated 2,000 kids from their parents. And, again, all these questions still exist. And if we have to separate kids from their parents, then we probably need to rethink our strategy on how we are securing our country.

Let's take coast guard. Coast guard is only able to action 25 percent of the known drugs they know that are coming in this country which means 75 percent is not being actioned. Let's put some more resources in coast guard. Let's make sure that we are using technology along the border to aid the men and women in border patrol.

I have more border than any member of Congress, 820 miles of border. These are some of the smart solutions we should be doing to make sure we actually have operational control of our border. And let's make sure we have more immigration judges and address the root causes in places like Honduras and El Salvador and Nicaragua.

These are all better paths forward. We can work together in a bipartisan way and ultimately solve. This problem is too complicated to try to solve it one party by themselves. We actually have to work in a bipartisan fashion.

CABRERA: Yes. What you are saying is what we are also hearing from a number of Democrats. It sounds like you agree on a lot of issues, Republicans and Democrats. And yet we aren't seeing anybody working together. In fact, my understanding is the Republican bill that has been negotiated between conservatives and moderate Republicans in the House has only been dealing with Republicans at the table. No Democrats were invited into that negotiations which, again, I don't understand why.

But the President could end what's happening right now at the border with the separation of the families and children and parents with a struck of a pen, in a single tweet. Will you call on the President to end this practice now?

HURD: I have and I continue to do that. And I just make one correction in your previous statement. There is a bipartisan piece of legislation on solving border security and DACA specifically and does things that addresses issues like catch and release and ultimately the problem of having to detain so many people. It's called the USA act. And it is something that I have been working on with Pete Aguilar from California. And we have 30 Republican cosponsors, 30 Democratic cosponsors. This was the bill that we were working on the supreme of the hill scenario in order to move forward. So there is bipartisan legislation that has been negotiated --

[20:15:28] CABRERA: Then why isn't that getting a vote?

HURD: Good question. You have to ask somebody else because that is what we are working on, trying to get done. And I do believe that if it were brought to the floor, to the House, that it would pass in overwhelming fashion with Republicans and Democrats.

CABRERA: Congressman Will Hurd, thank you very much for taking the time. We appreciate it.

HURD: Always a pleasure to be on with you.

CABRERA: Coming up, I will talk to former homeland security secretary Jeh Johnson.

And up next, shocking video of a taxi plowing into a group of people on a busy sidewalk. This amid world cup activities in Moscow. What police are saying happened here in the CNN NEWSROOM.


[20:20:12] CABRERA: Breaking news out of Moscow where the 2018 world cup is taking place right now. A taxi plowed into a crowd of pedestrians in the middle of world cup festivities injuring seven people. And I want to warn you the video you are about to see is disturbing.

Our Matthew Chance has the latest on the scene in Moscow -- Matthew.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: All right, we can see there is a big black scuff mark here and some yellow paint as well because that's the exact spot where that taxi veered on to this pavement and accelerated through the crowd of pedestrians right along here including many football fans from Mexico who had come to witness this, to take part in this world cup 2018 here in Russia.

The Russian authorities are trying to play this whole incident down saying it was not intentional. They say they have opened a criminal case in terms of a road traffic investigation. They are saying the driver simply lost control of the vehicle and plowed through those pedestrians. He then of course, if you look at that video, opened his driver door and attempted to make a run for it. So he attempted to do a hit and run as it were before he was taken and held by onlookers before the police arrived.

Russia of course has some serious security concerns when it comes to staging an event as big as this, not just in Moscow but across 11 cities in Russia. It's had threats from Islamic militants from Syria who have said they will carry out revenge attacks against Russia during the world cup. It also has homegrown problems with Islamists and jihadists. So these are all concerns that the Russian authorities have been

working very hard to contain to make sure this event goes as smoothly as possible. This it seems was not a terrorist attack, it was an unintentional road attack according to authorities. But again, it pulls into focus how difficult it is to make sure an event like the world cup goes off safely.

Matthew Chance, CNN, Moscow.

CABRERA: Thank you, Matthew.

Up next in the CNN NEWSROOM, you will meet the North Korean defector who battled starvation and had to eat mice just to survive before escaping.

You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM.


[20:26:59] CABRERA: President Trump says he wants Americans to treat him the way North Koreans treat their supreme leader Kim Jong-un.


TRUMP: Hey, he is the head of a country and, I mean, he is the strong head. Don't let anyone think anything different. He speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.


CABRERA: The President later said he was kidding. But this isn't the first time Trump has suggested he is envious of Kim's control.

"The Washington Post" writes that after watching North Korea's state run TV, The President quote "jokes that even the administration- friendly FOX News was not as lavish in its praise as the state TV anchor and that maybe she should get a job on U.S. television instead."

The White House hasn't clarified what the President was kidding about that too. But you would be forgiven for wondering, what is a joke and what isn't? Considering the President's latest remarks follow a week of extreme praise for the brutal dictator.


TRUMP: Really, he has got a great personality. He is, you know, a funny guy. He is a very smart guy. He is a great negotiator.

He is very talented. Anybody that takes over a situation like he did at 26 years of age and is able to run it and run it tough.

So he is a very smart guy. He is a great negotiator. But I think we understand each other.

I think that he really wants to do a great job for North Korea. I think he trust me and u trust him. I have a good relationship with

Kim Jong-un. That's a very important thing.


CABRERA: On top of all these compliments, the President also made this outrageous claim.


TRUMP: He loves his people. He loves his country. He wants a lot of good things. And that's why he is doing this.


CABRERA: Let's look at how Kim Jong-un treats his own people. You decide if he loves them.

North Korea sentences its people without trial, prisoners are often starved, tortured and raped. The government also controls reproduction through forced abortions and killing of babies. According to the United Nations and the international bar association, some of these abortions have been carried out by having men stand on women's stomachs or by injecting motor oil into a mother's womb. In one case of infanticide, a newborn baby was fed to dogs.

Kim keeps his control through deadly force. In his first six years as leader, he has executed more than 300 people. He killed one official by firing squad for having poor posture. Another by anti-aircraft machine guns for falling asleep during a meeting. And yet another by anti-aircraft machine guns and a flame thrower.

There was also that time last year when Kim allegedly had his own half-brother assassinated at an airport in Malaysia. And yet according to President Trump, this is a guy who really loves his people.

When Kim's people do try to leave or rather, escape like this soldier did last year, the government tries to murder them. This soldier was shot five times before making it across the border and into South Korea. The doctors who saved his life say he was full of parasitic worms and suffering from a chronic liver infection.


And it's not just Kim's own people who are tortured. American student Otto Warmbier was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor for trying to steal a poster. He died just days after the North Koreans released him. Here's how his parents say they found him.


FRED WARMBIER, FATHER OF OTTO WARMBIER: We get to the top of the steps and we look across in the airplane and Otto is laying on a stretcher. He's strapped to the stretcher. And he's moving around and jerking violently, making these howling inhuman sounds. He's a shaved head. His eyes are darting around -- they're as big as saucers. He's blind. He's deaf. He's got a feeding tube. And we kneel down and we hug him and try to connect with him and he's a complete vegetable. And his bottom teeth look like they had taken a pair of pliers and rearranged them.


ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: That was just last year. When confronted with these human rights atrocities, the president appeared to excuse them.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is a killer. He's executing people and he's done some really bad things.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes, but so have a lot of other people done some really bad things. I mean, I could go through a lot of nations where a lot of bad things were done.


CABRERA: This is similar to what President Trump has said about another strong man, Vladimir Putin.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you respect Putin?

TRUMP: I do respect him.


TRUMP: Well, I respect a lot of people but that doesn't mean I'm going to get along with them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Putin's a killer.

TRUMP: A lot of killers. We get a lot of killers. You think our country's so innocent?


CABRERA: President Trump's admiration for totalitarian doesn't end there. The president has also gone so far as to embrace a controversial change to China's constitution that would allow President Xi to rule for life, much like Kim Jong-un and Vladimir Putin.

TRUMP: Don't forget China's great and Xi is a great gentleman. He's now president for life. President for life. No, he's great. And look he was able to do that. I think it's great. Maybe we'll have to give that a shot someday.

CABRERA: President Trump later said he was kidding about that too. So to recap, the president has repeatedly and openly expressed admiration for strong men and after meeting one of the most brutal dictators in the world, President Trump came away hailing Kim's love of his people. Their state-mandated worship of him and the state control of how the press can cover everything. But why? More, live in the CNN NEWSROOM after a quick break.


[20:35:17] CABRERA: No one knows the sheer agony of living under the North Korean regime better than my next guest, Grace Jo. She is a North Korean refugee who is now an American citizen. Grace, thanks for joining us. How do you feel about President Trump praising Kim Jong-un?

GRACE JO, NORTH KOREAN REFUGEE: Well, when I hear that, actually, I feel very surprised, because the dictator of North Korea does not deserve those compliment words. However the U.S. president complimented the press -- well, leader of North Korea. Which he couldn't get those compliments. So I feel very angry when I hear those words, because he is not the person who can hear those compliments. The defectors who took a journey to freedom country and raising voices should hear those compliments and those 2.5 million people in North Korea should hear those compliments, because they're trying so hard to live under the dictatorship.

CABRERA: You have talked about what it's like to live under that dictatorship, you've talked about battling starvation. You had to eat mice to survive. Tell us more. What was life like in North Korea for you and your family?

JO: Well, my family, we lived -- we tried very hard to live in our country. Well, as being citizens, being father, mother, my parents tried their best to survive in North Korea. However, our daily life was hungry, cold and fear. So my childhood memory was very horrible when I was there. We constantly were starving, hungry, more than 10 days. For more than 10 days, so we were drinking cold water only without any food. And of course I had to recover malnutrition being eating the boiled mice soup. So not only my family, not only my story, there's 10,000 -- hundreds North Korean families in North Korea, they are still suffering, they're still hungry and they're still dying in North Korea. So it's not my only story. It's 100 people story.

[20:40:25] CABRERA: What do you make of the lack of discussion of the human rights atrocities being committed in North Korea?

JO: Well, I wish that U.S. President Trump commissioned the human rights issues at the summit with Kim Jong-un. However, it's not mentioned in the summit, so I feel very disappointed about that.

CABRERA: President Trump says he wants Americans to react to him more like North Koreans react to Kim Jong-un. We see some of their propaganda videos, people fawning over Kim, sitting at attention. Why do people do this in North Korea given the reality on the ground there?

JO: Well, I will say the summit itself was very successful summit for Kim Jong-un, the leader of North Korea, because of the presence of his journey made people to think differently about Kim Jong-un and his image was completely changed after this summit. So I would say a lot of people wanted to see like how those dictatorships looked like. And I think people are very interested about Kim Jong-un himself. But we kind of forgotten about what he did and then what he's doing for his own people.

CABRERA: Do you actually think Kim Jong-un is ready for a change in North Korea? What's your sense of where this is going to go?

JO: No, I do not believe him. We should not fooled by him. He will not give up the nuclear weapon and he will not change anything for his own people, because if he want to change his own country and giving benefits to his own people that means he has to open whole country to international world and get more information and let people know how they were isolated and how they are controlled by their government. But if they do so, a lot of people will think differently and they will -- they might against to their government and to North Korean government too is very afraid of our revolution and very afraid about those information goes into North Korea and make changes inside of people's mind. So I don't believe -- like for 70 years they have been protecting their people from outside of the information. And now he wants to change and make -- like give benefits to their own people? I do not believe that will be true.

CABRERA: Grace Jo, thank you very much for sharing your experience with us and giving us a little bit of a peak behind the curtain into what life is really like in North Korea. We appreciate it.

JO: Thank you, my pleasure.

CABRERA: Up next, two members of the Trump administration pulling out their bible in defense of the practice of separating parents and children at the border. So, does that argument hold water? Two men of the cloth join me live, next.


[20:45:32] CABRERA: The Trump administration using the bible to defend its policy of separating children from parents at the U.S. border. Take a listen.


SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I can say that it is very biblical to enforce the law. That is actually repeated a number of times throughout the bible.

JEFF SESSIONS, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I would cite you to the apostle Paul and his clear and wise command in Romans 13 to obey the laws of the government because God has ordained the government for his purposes.


CABRERA: Some of these comments come after pushback from religious leaders including some of the same evangelicals who helped Trump win the White House. Let's talk it over with Reverend Darrell Scott, CEO of the National Diversity Coalition for Trump and founder and senior pastor of New Spirit Revival Center. And also joining us, Father Edward Beck, a Roman Catholic priest and CNN religious commentator.

So, Father Beck, I want to ask you this question first. What do you make of the administration's biblical defense of separating families at the border?

FATHER EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGIOUS COMMENTATOR: Ana, let me be very clear right from the top, that to cherry pick a biblical passage such as this out of context to support nefarious and diabolical governmental policy is immoral and I would say borders on sinful because of the possible ill effects it has on others. You cannot take this text out of context to use it to justify your own means or your own ends. Why doesn't Attorney General Jeff Sessions talk about the fact that in this passage, right before the part he quotes, it talks about love of enemies, the need to love one another? You have to take the full context of what is trying to be said. So I think it's wrong to use the passage and he certainly used it wrongly.

CABRERA: Reverend Scott, you support this president. Do you support the administration using religion and citing the bible to defend this controversial policy?

REVEREND DARRELL SCOTT, CEO, NATIONAL DIVERSITY COALITION FOR TRUMP: Well, you know, I think that the use of the bible scripture was a little bit inappropriate. However, that scripture was not taken out of context. You are to obey civil authority as long as it doesn't contradict moral authority. It doesn't contradict the moral precepts that God has instituted. You know, to bring these children in and put them at risk knowing that if we are indeed apprehended, as we've tried to illegally cross this border, I could potentially lose my children, that's something I would have to give careful consideration to before I would engage in that type of activity. It's breaking the law, pure and simple, you get caught, you pay the consequences. I mean, it's sad, it's tragic in certain respects, but it's still a reality.

[20:50:19] CABRERA: Reverend Scott, you don't think Jeff Sessions was cherry picking a bible passages? Because you could read a litany of other bible passages that say things like Leviticus, when a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native born. And there are a lot of other things that you could pick out of the bible that would reinforce the exact opposite of what we're seeing this policies -- the results of the policy being the practice of separating children and their families at the border.

SCOTT: No, I don't that applies it all. That scripture that you quote in Leviticus is talking about foreign citizens of the country. It's talking about not having preference or having racial disharmony. It doesn't have anything to do with illegal immigration.

Listen, we seem to try to ignore the fact that these are illegal immigrants that know they are breaking the law that are trying to sneak into the United States. They're putting their children at risk. Now, what are you to do? Put the children in jail with their parents? Or what do you do? Release the children on their own without parental custody? I mean, come on now. We know the realistic there's no other alternative.

Listen, I know people --

CABRERA: No other alternative? Father Beck, what would Jesus do in this situation?

SCOTT: Jesus wouldn't be involved in illegal immigration. So let's not try to bring him into this. That's what I'm saying what would Jesus do regarding a traffic stop or something? Listen, I know a young lady in the black community that was apprehended on a traffic line. They took her child. The child was in the car with her. They took her child to human services and while they took her to jail. The other alternative was take the child to deal with her or let the child walk down the street on his own. So we know full well those alternatives exist and we can engage them. The only alternative we have is to take the children into protective custody until their fate is decided.

CABRERA: Father Beck.

SCOTT: It's not like they're being placed into concentration camps or anything like that.

BECK: To Scott, do you really think that Saint Paul is defending the Roman Empire with this text, the one that crucified and killed his Lord and savior Jesus Christ? Do you think that that's the purpose that Saint Paul writes this text? Do you really believe that Saint Paul who is imprisoned by the Romans would be defending that government? For Sarah Sanders to say that following the bible and the following the law is biblical, also disobeying the law is biblical. Disobeying unjust laws. That's what civil disobedience is about. It's far more precedence for that in the bible.

SCOTT: I don't see the apostle Paul encouraging sedition against Rome. I didn't see Jesus leaving in this direction against Rome. The apostle Paul and Jesus both said that the kingdom of God was not of this world.

BECK: Jesus was crucified --

SCOTT: They were not endorsing nor that they encourage civil disobedience.

BECK: They most certainly did.

SCOTT: When, where, what?

BECK: They most certainly did.

SCOTT: When?

BECK: He was crucified because he was considered a threat to the Roman Empire and Pontius Pilate says, are you --

CABRERA: Hold on. One at a time. Let's let Father Beck answer your question. Hold on. Hold on. Reverend Scott --

SCOTT: Listen, Pontius Pilate didn't even know who this guy was. And Pontius Pilate who was the Roman governor at that time, said, I'll find a wrong in him. So let's not try to go there.

CABRERA: Go ahead now Father Beck.

BECK: It is clear in the gospel that Jesus is on the side of the poor, the outcast, the foreigner, the stranger. This is who he aligns himself with -- can I speak, please? If you are a Christian, you follow the words and actions of Jesus. That's the role model. You don't make up your own religion.

SCOTT: OK. Is it my turn?

CABRERA: Actually, I got to leave it there, guys. I got to leave it there. We've got to leave it there. Reverend Darrell Scott --

SCOTT: -- nor that I see Jesus encouraging sedition. I don't see it. I don't see him encouraging revolution.

BECK: Well, he was a revolutionary and he was crucified for it. So I don't know what bible you're reading.

SCOTT: He was crucified because --

CABRERA: Gentlemen, thank you both. We got to go. We'll be right back.


[20:55:11] CABRERA: Before we go tonight, I want to honor the service and the sacrifice of two sheriff deputies killed in the line of duty. 44-year-old Theresa King and 35-year-old Patrick Rohrer were shot Friday while transporting inmates from court in Kansas City. They later died at the hospital. Official say it's very possible the deputies were shot with their own firearms. The department called the pair an asset to the agency and sadly both deputies were parents.

Up next here on CNN, Fareed Zakaria reveals the two faces of North Korea's leader Kim Jong-un in a CNN Special Report.

Thank you so much joining me. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. That's going to do it for me tonight. I'll see you back here tomorrow night live in the CNN NEWSROOM at 5:00 Eastern. Good night.