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Outrage Over Separating Families; Stone Met with Russian; Trump Immigration Policy Compared to Nazi Germany; Mexico Upsets Germany in World Cup; Cyber Warfare in Geopolitics. Aired 6:30-7a ET
Aired June 18, 2018 - 06:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[06:30:00] GEN. MICHAEL HAYDEN (RET.), CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Attorney general saying it's the will of God. The president saying the Democrats made me do it. And Steve Miller saying, I did it. What's a country to believe?
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Is it a deterrent? Do you believe separating children from their parents when they cross the border is a deterrent? It will keep more people from coming?
HAYDEN: Well, two thoughts come to mind, John, and maybe equally harsh to my tweet on Saturday. There are a lot of things that are deterrents that we shouldn't do. That's one. And, number -- and traumatizing children is probably one of them. But, number two, so far, statistically, it does not seem to have been a deterrent. So you've got both the philosophical and the practical question that are still not proven.
BERMAN: What can be done? What would be a deterrent? If the ultimate goal is to keep these parents from going to the border with their children, how do you do that?
HAYDEN: Well, but, John, let's not take the crisis and expand it beyond what it truly is. I mean in terms of our southern border, we have more foreign nationals moving south across that border than we do moving north. We have been a net exporter over the past -- over the past several years. And although you have these specific cases of these people doing these particular things, what's happening there right there is not a national crisis.
I get it. We're a sovereign nation. We have a right to control our borders. But we should do it within our ideals.
BERMAN: When the White House says there is no policy to separate children from their parents, are they lying?
HAYDEN: Well, I mean, I see children separated from their parents. Newsmen see children separated from their parents. And so what they're saying does not seem to comport with objective reality.
BERMAN: General Hayden, if you will humor us, please, stick around. We have a lot more we would like to ask you, including the news that Roger Stone, who has been a political advisor for some time to President Trump, met with a Russian promising dirt on Hillary Clinton and then did not tell Congress about it when he testified to them. We have a lot more questions about that, general. Stick around. We'll be right back.
HAYDEN: Thank you.
[06:36:29] BERMAN: Back with us now, CNN national security analyst, retired General Michael Hayden.
General, thank you for stick around. There's a lot going on and more that we wanted to ask you about.
"The Washington Post" reported overnight that Roger Stone, who has been a long-time political adviser to Donald Trump, had a meeting in the spring of 2016 with a Russian promising dirt on Hillary Clinton. Ultimately, this Russian apparently wanted $2 million for this dirt. Roger Stone said no because he said Donald Trump doesn't pay for anything, that's why it went down. But by "The Washington Post's" accounting, that makes 11 either campaign officials or advisers, transition officials or advisers, who had contact with Russians. Does that number seem usual, normal to you?
HAYDEN: No, it's -- it's not normal. And, in fact, John, what we already know via public knowledge, the meeting with Veselnitskaya, with regard to orphans, and then the correspondence between Don Junior and WikiLeaks and so on. There was a lot of connective tissue between the campaign and organs of the Russian Federation. And, look, every one of them may have turned out to have been incredibly naive and stupid mistakes on the part of the administration, rather part of the campaign, rather than anything criminal.
But, you know, John, as director of CIA, I know a little bit about being investigated. And when we had an incident like this at the agency, the first thing we did was to get our team together so that we had a good picture as to what went on. And it's clear to me that never happened with regard to the Trump campaign or administration.
And, frankly, John, chaos theory as a defense only takes you so far.
BERMAN: And the timing of that, just to be clear, that meeting happened within two weeks of the Trump Tower meeting with Don Junior, which happened a few weeks before the WikiLeaks release of the DNC hacked e-mails.
BERMAN: So that's just a sense of the timing there.
I want to go back to administration again -- immigration. In your tweet, which was of Auschwitz and how -- comparing what's happening at the southern border with what happened in Nazi Germany. You suggest that your concern is that there is this slippery slope of what the administration is doing here.
Steve Bannon, who was one-time adviser to the Trump administration, senior adviser in the White House, he did not like your criticism of the administration. This is what he said over the weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: Well, I don't believe in the deep state. But we'll get into this later. I think Hayden and all that crowd, Brennan, all of them, this shows you they're over the top anti-Trump, anybody but Trump, to demonize the president of the United States as a former military officer, completely unsatisfactory. And it's over the top comparison.
This is a law, OK? The president is enforcing a zero tolerance policy. We've got to get security on the southern border. He has not been given his wall. And I believe he's going to enforce this policy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Let's break that up into parts.
First, as a former military officer, he says it's inappropriate for you to criticize the president as you are.
HAYDEN: Actually, I didn't bring up the president in the tweet. I talked about governments. I specifically avoided the president. If he thinks the president's responsible for it, then I guess that's why he brought up the president. And so I -- I have a right to speak. I also have a responsibility to respect the office and the occupant of the office. And I work very hard to do that every day.
But, John, the most telling part of that brief conversation was the tactics that were used to undercut my argument, which was, frankly, not to try to undercut my argument, but to discredit me and other folks as being illegitimate voices.
[06:40:09] BERMAN: Well, the other thing is that Bannon is actually arguing from a third position. There's what you were saying, which is that the policy is wrong, there's what Bannon is saying, that the policy is right and that we are doing it, and then there's what the president is saying, which is that we're not doing it or it's not my policy right now.
HAYDEN: Right. I understand. Back to the confusion.
I mean, look, if they want to defend this, and maybe we should have a deep discussion because what Mr. Bannon brought up there, you know, is certainly a factor. I don't think it's compelling, but it's an important factor. I mean a conversation that says this is what we are doing and why, with some unanimity from the administration, would be a good first step.
BERMAN: General Michael Hayden, it is an honor to have you with us. Thank you very much for playing this morning. Do appreciate it.
HAYDEN: Thank you, John.
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, John, now to this story.
This is a major threat that most Americans do not see. How the Trump administration is trying to tackle cyberattacks and all that's involved. All that's next.
[06:45:34] BERMAN: I know you watched this.
Mexico stunning Germany --
CAMEROTA: It was on in my house all afternoon.
BERMAN: It was awesome.
CAMEROTA: It was on.
BERMAN: This was --
CAMEROTA: And I heard a lot of screaming, so I know it was (INAUDIBLE).
BERMAN: And you felt the ground shaking.
BERMAN: It did shake. Mexico stunned Germany in the World Cup opener. This is one of Mexico's biggest wins in history. It was a great Father's Day president to all of us.
Andy Scholes has more in the "Bleacher Report."
ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning, guys.
You know, this was a huge upset. Germany, the defending champs, one of the favorites to win it again this year, but it turns out it was just Mexico's day. And check out the crowd in Mexico City celebrating when they scored their goal. So many people were jumping up and down, seismic sensors in Mexico City detected a small earthquake according to the Institute of Geologic and Atmospheric Investigations in Mexico. Just incredible video there of them having fun watching their team win.
Now, Germany hadn't lost a World Cup opener since 1982. Hirving Lozano scoring the lone goal for Mexico late in the first half. They held on to win that game 1-0. They're going to take on South Korea in their second game on Saturday.
And I'll tell you what, guys, you know, watching that video there just makes you jealous that the United States is not a part of this year's World Cup. But, hey, maybe in four years we'll get to experience something like that.
CAMEROTA: Hope springs eternal. I like that. Andy Scholes, thank you very much.
SCHOLES: All right.
CAMEROTA: OK, here's a nightmare scenario of warfare for you, that the Trump administration has been quietly trying to tackle a massive cyberattack that could shut down financial markets and beyond.
Joining us now to talk about all of this is CNN political and national security analyst David Sanger. His new book, which is out tomorrow, is called "The Perfect Weapon." It's about how cyber weapons have transformed geo politics.
David Sanger is joining us.
Great to see you.
DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Great to be back with you.
CAMEROTA: Just when you think you have enough nightmares, along comes David Sanger. Thanks a lot.
SANGER: We'll give you a few more. Thanks. Sure.
CAMEROTA: Yes. So what has it -- have we already been tackling and the recipients of cyberattacks and we're just not as aware of it as we should be?
SANGER: We've been both the recipient and the deliverer of cyberattacks. I mean, obviously, the United States and Israel attacked Iran's nuclear plants. The U.S. had a covert program to go after the North Korean missile program. That might be back depending on how well things work out with North Korea after last week.
But we are, of course, the recipients of almost daily attacks. And that's the big change, Alisyn.
The last time I did a book six years ago, I described the Iran attacks. At that time, it was hard to find another state-on-state cyberattack. As I was working on "The Perfect Weapon," it became clear that we were in a world in which states had basically decided that this is the fundamental way to undercut each other and compete with each other because you can do it in a stealthy way that's hard to attribute. And the chances are, you're not going to get attacked back in a military way. That's why North Korea went after Sony.
CAMEROTA: And so what do some of these look like?
SANGER: Well, they -- they've got a huge spectrum. And I think that's what people sort of don't understand. We're the collateral damage for this state-on-state attack that's going on 30,000 feet over our heads. So sometimes they are destructive, like the one against Iran. Sometimes they are destructive, like North Korea's attack on the Sony computer systems. You remember for the leaked e-mails about Angelina Jolie. But, in fact, the real import of that North Korean attack was it melted down 70 percent of Sony's computing systems. They actually had to go write their paychecks sort of by hand that week, OK.
Now, that's at one end. There's data manipulation. And that's our big fear about sort of why the Chinese took 21 million security clearance pieces of data, you know --
CAMEROTA: Yes, to do what with?
SANGER: Well, that's a --
CAMEROTA: It could just be chaos at our banks, at our, what, financial --
SANGER: It was interesting. We've never seen a single piece of data from the big hack of the office of personnel management show up in a way that would, you know, defraud your bank account or take money out of your checking account. They wanted to compile a huge database of the -- basically 20 or 30 million Americans who have security clearances, who work on sensitive projects, to draw using big data, a big image of what we have. So there's that.
And then there's the Russia hack kind of things, which are basically using this for -- either information warfare or had they been successful in the registration systems in Illinois and Arizona, data manipulation.
[06:50:07] CAMEROTA: This is like apocalyptic stuff if you ask me. I mean I've -- truly it's hard to kind of focus on because I think that it seems so big and so hard to get your arms around.
So, the Trump administration has, though, been more aggressively trying to tackle it. So what are they doing?
SANGER: Well, they've done a couple of things and then there are a few things that are sort of a mystery to us. One thing that they did early on was they began to name and shame individual countries that were doing these. So when the WannaCry attack happened last year, which was the big attack that took out the British health care system and so forth, that was North Korea. It took them months, but they eventually came out to the White House press room and said, we have determined this was North Korea. They didn't really have many sanctions. What more can you do to North Korea?
On a big attack on Ukraine, they named the Russians as the one who came after it.
The problem, since John Bolton has come in, he has gotten rid of the two senior people who dealt with this and announced that he is eliminating the position of cyber coordinator.
CAMEROTA: Why? Why? Why? I mean why, in this landscape, would you do that?
SANGER: It -- to -- I -- it is a complete mystery to me. Their answer is, their pat answer is, it's part of everything we do. The true answer here is, you need people responsible for this. If, you know, ten years ago cyber didn't even show up on the threat assessments that the intelligence committee would give every year. The intelligence community would give to Congress. The past four years it's been number one ahead of terrorism, ahead of the possibility of a nuclear detonation. And so to eliminate the cyber coordinator, it can't be that we're over coordinated in this government, that's for sure.
The second big thing that they're doing is, they're beginning to loosen the rules. And I found a little bit of this in an excerpt from the book in "The Times" on the front page today. They're beginning to loosen the rules so that the U.S. Cyber Command, the new military command, can sort of go into foreign networks each and every day to go find this stuff. Well, that's fine. It gets at the source. But it also risks that you start up an earlier cyber conflict before you've really thought about it.
CAMEROTA: Yes, I understand, I mean there could be a possible negative byproduct, but isn't that the answer, to be more proactive rather than reactive to this?
SANGER: The model here is counterterrorism. You know, we -- we came to the conclusion for a while, you can't sit around and just try to find people at the border. You go in and you hit the houses in Pakistan or the bomb maker in Iraq and that's very much the model they're going to. The problem with it here is -- and I think it's the right way to go -- but if you don't have really serious control about how that works, then the country that is on the receiving ends of it thinks that you've made the first attack.
CAMEROTA: David Sanger, I am so glad that you are analyzing all of this and boiling it down for us in your new book so that the rest of us don't have to. Thank you very much.
SANGER: Thanks, Alisyn.
CAMEROTA: Best of luck with the book.
SANGER: Thank you.
CAMEROTA: OK, John.
BERMAN: Yes, thanks for making me feel much better about everything, guys. Really, really appreciate it.
This weekend, a group of Democratic lawmakers visited detention centers in Texas. Two of them will join us in minutes to tell us what they saw. Why they are calling for these family separations to end and what they will do about it.
CAMEROTA: OK, but, first, all this week CNN presents a special series called "Champions for Change." And anchors from across CNN join forces with people who are making a difference in causes close to their hearts. So later we'll see the cause that I am supporting.
But here's a preview of the series.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All this week, a special CNN series. Our anchors profile "Champions for Change."
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR, "AC 360": We travel the globe telling stories of changemakers.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR, "NEWSROOM": This time we're joining their mission to make a difference.
BILL WEIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Giving time to the causes that are dear to our hearts.
CAMEROTA: And sharing the stories of the champions leading the charge.
BERMAN: It was for a great cause. And that's motivating.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We had to help them in a way that lets them see, this is not how your life has to be.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is an opportunity to pay it forward.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To do something that's just going to be meaningful.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are the kinds of students any community would be blessed to have.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It just warms your heart that you can help someone with food.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rock on.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Join the journalists of CNN as we work alongside "Champions for Change."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All this week presented by Charles Schwab.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[06:58:39] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a cynical, evil policy to try to hold these kids hostage in order to try to gain leverage.
KELLYANNE CONWAY, COUNCILOR TO THE PRESIDENT: Nobody likes this policy. Congress passed the law that it is a crime. So if they don't like that law, they should change it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This fight is about the strong of America.
SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R), MAINE: We need to fix our immigration laws. Using children is not the answer.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: People are going to be less likely to bring their kids to America if they get separated.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: They're using the grief, the tears, the pain of these kids as mortar to build their war.
RICK SANTORUM, FORMER U.S. SENATOR: If you say we're going to take these people in, more people will come and we'll have a bigger and bigger problem.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I can assure you, we'll be fighting to the end to stop this ugly, vile program.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.
CAMEROTA: OK, anything could happen today with that policy, so we are following it by the hour.
BERMAN: I think it's an open question about how long the White House can sustain this with the criticism (INAUDIBLE).
CAMEROTA: OK, let's dive in.
Good morning, everyone.
Outrage is growing over the Trump administration's practice of separating thousands of children from their parents at the border. The president is still falsely blaming Democrats for his own practice. But this is the Trump administration's interpretation of the zero tolerance immigration policy that is leading to these images on your screen right now of children behind metal fences. You can call it cages. You can call it pens. Whatever you want. But this is what we're dealing with this morning.
[07:00:03] BERMAN: Children separated from their parents. Now, former First Lady Laura Bush says it is cruel and immoral.