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Trump Expected To Shift Supreme Court To The Right; Swing Vote On U.S. Supreme Court Retiring; Defending Champs Germany Crash Out Of World Cup; Italy's Interior Minister on Immigration; Rescuers Press on in Search for Missing Team; will U.S. First Lady Make Another Fashion Statement? Aired 1-2a ET
Aired June 28, 2018 - 01:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[01:00:00] ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: U.S. Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy is retiring. President Trump says he's ready with a list of nominees. A huge surprise in the World Cup group stage, Germany out, Mexico in. And no surprise here, the long-planned E.U. leaders meeting is set to begin in Brussels, but will they come up with a solution for the migrant crisis in Europe? Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all over the world. I'm Rosemary Church and this is CNN NEWSROOM.
Donald Trump is riding high after learning he will get to make a second appointment to the U.S. Supreme Court, likely shifting the ideological balance further to the right. Justice Anthony Kennedy, who cast crucial swing votes, upholding abortion and gay rights announced his retirement Wednesday. Mr. Trump says the search for a replacement begins immediately.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm very honored that he chose to do it during my term in office because he felt confident in me to make the right choice and carry on his great legacy. That's why he did it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: The President was in North Dakota campaigning for the Republican Senate candidate. Mr. Trump says it's critical to elect more Republicans to Congress to carry out his agenda. Well, Justice Kennedy met with President Trump to hand-deliver his retirement letter. CNN's Jessica Schneider has more on Kennedy's career and impacts on the high court.
ANTHONY KENNEDY, FORMER ASSOCIATE JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT: The whole object of the judiciary is to ensure stability, continuity, and so we pride ourselves on the fact that there is little change.
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: In a move that could set in a motion, a seismic shift to the right in the highest court in the land, Justice Anthony Kennedy is retiring after more than 30 years on the bench.
KENNEDY: We as a people are bound together.
SCHNEIDER: Kennedy, now 81 years old, sworn the newest justice to join the court last year, his former clerk, Neil Gorsuch.
NEIL GORSUCH, ASSOCIATE JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT: I Neil Gorsuch do solemnly swear.
SCHNEIDER: While President Trump replaced one conservative with another when he chose Gorsuch to take Antonin Scalia's seat, he now has the opportunity to move the court significantly to the right when he replaces Kennedy a centrist.
KENNEDY: The case is swing, I don't.
SCHNEIDER: Kennedy has never liked being labeled the court's swing vote but for years it has been his vote that has often decided the outcome of cases in a closely divided court.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Anthony Kennedy was by far the most powerful justice of my lifetime controlling the outcome of so many important cases because he was the swing vote, the one vote that was in play.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you for coming to witness this historic occasion.
SCHNEIDER: Kennedy, a Ronald Reagan appointee.
KENNEDY: I Anthony Kennedy do solemnly swear --
SCHNEIDER: Was sworn in in 1988.
KENNEDY: I shall honor the constitution.
SCHNEIDER: He sided with his conservative colleagues on issues such as gun control and voting rights. He offered the majority opinion in Citizens United, striking down election spending limits for corporations.
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So help me God.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Congratulations.
SCHNEIDER: And in Bush v. Gore, he helped clear the way for George W. Bush's presidency. But to the dismay of those on the right, Kennedy joined the liberals on the court on abortion, affirmative action, and the death penalty. His most lasting legacy will likely be in the area of gay rights. In 2015, Kennedy penned a landmark opinion, clearing the way for same-sex marriage nationwide.
KENNEDY: They asked for equal dignity in the eyes of the law and the Constitution grants them that right.
TOOBIN: Anthony Kennedy grew up in a conservative Catholic family in Sacramento, California, but there was something that offended him from the very beginning about discrimination against gay people. And his principal legacy on the court will be as the father of constitutional protections for gay rights and for marriage equality in the United States.
SCHNEIDER: But Kennedy this term tried to strike a balance between gay rights and religious freedom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everyone deserves the cake!
SCHNEIDER: When he wrote the majority opinion, siding with a Colorado baker who refused to make a custom wedding cake for two gay men. In his onion, Kennedy acknowledged the baker's sincere religious beliefs that motivated his objection but warned against the broad use of religion to justify denying same-sex couples goods and services writing any decision in the favor of the baker would have to be sufficiently constrained. In 2009, Kennedy offered a rare glimpse what it's like to be behind the scenes on closely divided cases.
KENNEDY: There are not a lot of high-fives and back slaps. There is a moment of quiet, a moment of respect, maybe even sometimes awe at the process. We realize that one of us is going to have to write out a decision which teaches and gives reasons for what we do.
[01:05:04] SCHNEIDER: As time proves him to be one of the most unpredictable justices, personal dignity and liberty were always themes in Anthony Kennedy's jurisprudence. Jessica Schneider, CNN, Washington.
CHURCH: And joining me now from Los Angeles, Michael Genovese is the President of the Global Policy Institute at Loyola Marymount University and Sam Erman is a Law Professor at USC and a former Judicial Law Clerk for Justice Kennedy. Welcome to you both.
MICHAEL GENOVESE, PRESIDENT, GLOBAL POLICY INSTITUTE, LOYOLA MARYMOUNT UNIVERSITY: Thank you.
SAM ERMAN, FORMER JUDICIAL LAW CLERK FOR JUSTICE KENNEDY: Thank you.
CHURCH: So Michael Genovese, to you first. No matter who President Trump selects from, his vetted list, Justice Kennedy's replacement is going to be more conservative than he ever was, tipping the balance on the Supreme Court. How will that reshape both the court and the landscape of America?
GENOVESE: Well, as your report indicated, Justice Kennedy is actually quite conservative, but he tended to be the swing vote or the liberal vote on some very big headline cases. So overall he was very conservative, but the next justice will be more conservative and will be more ideological because the President will demand it, his base will demand it. What will that mean? It will mean that some of the cases that Kennedy decided in 5-4 decisions would be in jeopardy. Abortion rights might be in jeopardy and I'm not going to take the position that some more extremist people take that, oh, this is going to be the first step on the road to a Handmaid's Tale in America. But the will probably find an opportunity in the first year to restrict abortion rights further. Gay rights are now slightly in jeopardy. I don't think they can overturn gay marriage and things like that, but a lot of the things Justice Kennedy found to be important and why he made the swing vote will now be in jeopardy in the next few years with the new Supreme Court.
CHURCH: Sam Erman, I want to turn to you because you, of course, worked as a Judicial Law Clerk for Justice Kennedy so you know him very well. Why do you think he chose to retire at this particular time and do you think he has any concerns at all that the person who replaces him will not think as he does but instead will be considerably more conservative? He was conservative, of course, as we know, but he did have this tendency to vote -- have the swing vote on some pretty critical and delicate issues.
ERMAN: Well, I think the reason Justice's retire is that they make a decision that makes sense for them. They have lifetime tenure. They are allowed to stay on as long as they want, and at a certain point, they think it's time. And it's -- people often speculate that they do it in order to influence who will replace them, but I don't think that's usually the main consideration. And Justice Kennedy has stayed on the court much longer than most people stay on their jobs. He has grandchildren he loves very much. I suspect the next year is going to be a highly rewarding one for him. He's also a very smart man. And so I'm sure he knows that whoever replaces him will have different priorities and different ideology, that courts change when the personnel change. And so he's had a long run, he's an extraordinarily powerful justice, and some of his legacies will survive and others will certainly be shifted or undermined once he leaves.
CHURCH: Right. And Michael, back to you. Justice Kennedy voted with his more liberal colleagues on issues like abortion and same-sex marriage. Is there any risk that some of those decisions could now be overturned as a result of a more conservative Supreme Court? You did touch on this but how concerned would you be? I mean, there is a lot of the public, certainly, liberals are just outraged and very worried about this point.
GENOVESE: Yes, I think the alarm is maybe a little bit too concerned because the courts do follow precedent where they can. But what we are likely to see is this new Supreme Court will probably be the most conservative in my lifetime. Now, does that mean that they will willy-nilly just overturn all kinds of liberal decisions that have been made? Probably not, but it does mean that certain things will be in jeopardy. I think gay rights may be safer than abortion rights. I think affirmative action, some of the affirmative action decisions might be in jeopardy. But if the court turns around too quickly, it will appear to be overly political and thereby undermining some other authority because the authority they have is to be seen as legitimate, as being guided by the law and not by politics. If they appear to be too political, that undermines their legitimacy and their authority.
CHURCH: Right. And Sam, do you think there is any possibility that Republicans such as Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski would refuse to support the choice made by President Trump, if they perceive that person to be too conservative? [01:10:02] ERMAN: Well, I think the President is going to choose someone that he thinks he's able to get confirmed, but also it's worth recalling that he has some time to get his nominee through. And so if he does make a miscalculation and chooses someone who it turns out is difficult to be confirmed, he can always withdraw that nomination and put somebody else forward. It seems to me very unlikely that he would fail to get a nominee through during this Senate term.
CHURCH: Yes, I mean, he does have the numbers on his side, doesn't he? And Michael, both President Trump and Majority Leader Mitch McConnell want to get this done before the midterm elections in November and there's not a lot of the Democrats couldn't do about that of course. What tactics might they use though to slow this process down until after the midterms when they could perhaps have more votes on their side?
GENOVESE: Well, a lot of people are saying that the McConnell decision not to let the Garland vote go through under President Obama should be applied here. In a way, they're apples and oranges because, on the one hand, one is the end of a presidency. This is in the middle of a presidency. But it is before an election and so I think if you expect consistency from politicians you're really looking in the wrong direction. So I think what you're going to see is that the Democrats have very limited options. McConnell took the nuclear option off the table so you only need 51 votes. Now John McCain may not be around to vote so that would make it a 50-50 tie. So the Democrats might want to try to poach one member. Susan Collins, Murkowski would be opportunities perhaps to get one Republican vote and sink the nomination. But as Sam said quite accurately, Donald Trump will get a second or even a third run at this so he'll get a conservative on the court. He may not get the first one though, he's likely to do that but he'll get someone through, he'll have his justice on the Supreme Court before too long.
CHURCH: And Sam, you get the final word of course. What sort of mechanisms are in place to stop any particular sitting president from putting more of their own party in place, those that represent their party? Let's say another Justice on the Supreme Court retires before the end of President Trump's term, what's to stop that from happening?
ERMAN: Well, democracy is the short answer. If you don't like the court that you have, you need to vote in senators and presidents who will choose justices that you like. We're going to have an election coming up fairly soon. It seems unlikely that any justice, any further justice will step down before that election and so if Democrats or others think this road it's too dangerous then they should go out and vote for senators that they think would not approve a nominee who would move the court even further to the right.
CHURCH: All right, Michael Genovese and Sam Erman, thank you to both for joining us. We appreciate it.
GENOVESE: Thank you
CHURCH: A thrilling day of World Cup upsets. The big one, scrappy South Korea taking down the defending champs. You heard it right. The German engine failed and is out of the tournament. The Deutsch Landers are the third straight title holder to crush out in the group stage. And Kate Riley of CNN World Sport joins us now to explain what happened. I mean it's just shocking outcome. I couldn't believe it myself. How did this happen?
KATE RILEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL SPORTS ANCHOR: Honestly, I think we've cast the World Cup raise right. Every time I wanted (INAUDIBLE) there is some upset to report so it is ridiculous. And I don't think really anyone saw this coming, did they? We are calling this and the curse of the World Cup winners because the fourth -- for the fourth time in five tournaments the defending champion has crashed out of the group stage but this one, this was something else entirely. Germany were eliminated from the tournament after South Korea scored twice right from the first minute of the second half stoppage time and another in the seventh minute of stoppage giving the Asian nation a 2-0 win. It's the first time the Germans have been knocked out of the first round all six tournaments since 1938.
Mexico has the leading Group F heading into the final day but needed a lifeline to survive after Sweden thrash them 3-0 (INAUDIBLE). Sweden grab the group's top spot ahead of Mexico by virtue of that superior goal difference and amazingly Germany are headed home. Earlier, our Amanda Davies spoke with the German football expert Raphael Honigstein about the champ's stunning exit. He was shocked that's for sure.
[01:14:54] Well, for years, the German team have inflicted misery on everyone else to the World Cup. And now, they know how it feels the scene from Berlin where those of us the devastation as the fans realized there is no way the cup was going back to Germany.
Now, remember the World Cup four years ago? That fateful semi-final when Germany thrash Brazil, 7-1, was the most humiliating night for the tournament hosts and the wounds cut incredibly deep.
While it was no surprise to see, the Brazilian fans out on the street celebrating Germany's demise at the World Cup earlier. And just a few hours after that, Brazil successfully advanced to the knockout stage, knowing they won't have to run into the Germans again.
Well, Brazil played Serbia in their final Group E game, knowing that a draw would secure their passage to the round of 16. They did much better than that winning 2-0 to take the group. Paulinho, scoring the first, and in the second half, it was up to Thiago Silva.
Really quite amazing because just a few years ago, when he started his career in Moscow, he ended up in hospital with tuberculosis. It was so bad that he might have lost part of his lungs. Obviously, earlier are on today, a much happier experience for him.
CHURCH: Wow! Unbelievable, it certainly been ruthless so far just watching all of this. What should be we watching, looking forward? What are the matches?
RILEY: Well, now that Australia are out, I'm asking --
CHURCH: I'm sorry. Patrick mentioned that yesterday. There's no need to be mention it, yes.
RILEY: I'm sorry. Yes, I'm sorry. But seeing as your team has gone home, you might want to support my team. So, yes. Sorry, Rosemary. And Belgium and England, they have a big day ahead of them. Both have already advanced from Group G.
Thursday's game in Kaliningrad will decide who finishes top. And on the left-hand side of the draw, there's a bit more to play for in Group H before all of that. Only Poland have been eliminated, they face group leaders, Japan.
Well, Africa's only remaining representatives, Senegal, will be taking on Colombia. Any of the top three can still progress.
CHURCH: Wow! Can't wait to see what --
RILEY: See you tomorrow night. We'll be talk -- we'll be talking about another shot. So, we've got it.
CHURCH: Unbelievable. All right, well, there you have it. We'll talk next hour? All right, lovely, Kate Riley. Appreciate it.
RILEY: Thank you.
CHURCH: Well, another high-level summit is in the works when we come back. For the latest on the upcoming meeting of the U.S. and Russian President. And will election meddling be on the table? We'll take a look at that.
Plus, fresh off his meetings in China, the U.S. defense secretary is off to South Korea. A look at what's on the agenda. We'll back in a moments.
[01:20:17] CHURCH: Well, in the coming hours we expect to learn details of the upcoming summit between U.S. President Donald Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin. It will likely take place in either Helsinki or Vienna soon after Mr. Trump attends the NATO summit next month.
TRUMP: Well, I think we'll be talking about Syria. I think we'll be talking about Ukraine. I think we'll be talking about many other subjects, and we'll see what happens. So you'll never know. You never know about meetings, what happens, right?
CHURCH: U.S. National Security Advisor John Bolton has been in Moscow, hammering out details of the summit with Russian officials. Bolton also met with President Putin and tried to quell any apprehension about the planned summit.
JOHN BOLTON, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR OF THE UNITED STATES: The fact is that it's important for the leaders of these two countries to meet. There are wide range of issues despite the differences between us, where both President Trump and President Putin, think they may be able to find constructive solutions. I'd like to hear someone say that's a bad idea.
CHURCH: Bolton also said, President Trump will bring up the issue of Russian election meddling. You may recall Mr. Trump raised that subject with Mr. Putin last November at the APEC summit in Vietnam. And here is what President Trump said about it back then,
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I believe that President Putin really feels and he feels strongly that he did not meddle in our election. What he believes is what he believes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: When new satellite images show North Korea is making modifications at a nuclear research facility. The monitoring group, 38 North, says the work shouldn't be seen as related to Pyongyang's pledge to denuclearize. It says long-planned upgrades were already underway.
But the photos suggest the north is maintaining its nuclear sites after the summit between President Trump and Kim Jong-un. So, let's bring in our Paula Hancocks. She's been following this, joins us now live from Seoul in South Korea.
Paula, these new satellite image show these improvements being made by North Korea and its Yongbyon Nuclear Research Center. It does beg the question of why would North Korea be doing this if it is pledged to denuclearize? Isn't that a mixed message?
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rosemary, there's a couple of things to take into account. First of all these satellite images were from March to June 21st. So, it wasn't just a couple of weeks. Or in fact, the week after the summit itself. This could well have been done before that happened.
There were many experts are saying that there simply needs to be more evidence before you can make a definitive decision that this is going against what was decided at the -- at the summit. Or that this is, in fact, as you say a mixed message.
Now, we have heard from 38 North, their assessment saying that it has -- they have seen improvements at a rapid pace, but over those few months. They've also said that the level of current operations remains unclear. So, they themselves are also saying it's not clear if this was part of the denuclearization pledge, as well, that they had -- that Kim Jong-un had given to the U.S. President Donald Trump in Singapore.
So, we do know that the North Koreans have consistently said they would like to have a step-by-step approach. This is what they wanted in the past, as well. They denuclearize slowly or they make pledges slowly, and then, try and have some kind of reward. Some kind of lifting of sanctions which Washington has said they won't do until there is some definitive evidence.
So, it's too soon to point to this one instance and say that, that is sending the wrong message from Pyongyang. Rosemarie?
CHURCH: All right. So, we give North Korea the benefit of the doubt on that one. We know, of course, that U.S. Defense Secretary James Mattis has arrived in South Korea. He was to meet with the president there, Moon Jae-in. But apparently, he is sick, but he is meeting now with his South Korean and Japanese counterparts. What's likely to come out of those meetings?
HANCOCKS: That's right. Secretary Mattis is meeting right now with the South Korean defense minister. He is likely to be talking about that suspension of military drills between the U.S. and South Korea, after the U.S. president unexpectedly, announced that what he saw as war games and provocative would no longer be going on whilst the talks to North Korea were progressing.
So, that's something that appeared to take South Korea by surprise I can imagine that will be one of the top topics. And also just to talk about the situation, this is the first time the two ministers have had a chance to meet since that's that Singapore summit between the U.S. and North Korean leaders.
And then, after that later on today. He will be heading to Tokyo, as well, to do a very similar thing. You should imagine with the Japanese defense minister.
[01:25:11] CHURCH: All right, many thanks for our Paula Hancocks. Joining us live from Seoul in South Korea, where it's nearly 2:30 in the afternoon.
Well, a raid on six properties belonging to Malaysia's former Prime Minister Najib Razak, uncovered a breathtaking stash of jewelry, cash, and designer goods. It was the country's biggest seizure ever. Now, police say they confiscated $100 million in cash and luxury goods.
The money is in 26 foreign currencies. Jewelry and gemstones worth $109 million including a necklace valued at $1.5 million. And hundreds of Hermes handbags, valued at almost $13 million. Razak is accused of siphoning off billions in state funds, he denies any wrongdoing.
Well, next hear on CNN NEWSROOM.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATTEO SALVINI, MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR, ITALY (through translator): With nice words, we never obtained anything. In this month of government with our actions, we managed to be listened to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: We hear from Matteo Salvini, Italy's interior minister, who is taking on immigration. Back in a moment with that.
CHURCH: Welcome back everyone to CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Rosemary Church. Let's update you now on the main stories we're following this hour.
The retirement of Justice Anthony Kennedy is expected to bring major changes to the US Supreme Court. The conservative judge cast the key swing votes in cases upholding abortion and gay rights. President Trump is expected to nominate a replacement far to the right.
U.S. National Security Advisor John Bolton met with Russian President Vladimir Putin, Wednesday, in Moscow. And announced Mr. Putin and U.S. President Trump will meet for a summit in the coming weeks. Details on when and where are expected to come out on Thursday.
But America's European allies are already said to be concerned that Mr. Trump may make promises they oppose. Despair in Deutschland and a thrill to South Korea after they knocked the current champion out of the World Cup, 2-0.
The Germans early exit means Mexico and Sweden advance from Group F. This is the third time in a row that title holders have crashed out in the group stage.
E.U. leaders are meeting in Brussels in the coming hours to come up with a solution to the migrant crisis.
Meanwhile, a ship carrying more than 230 migrants finally docked at a port in Malta. The ship was stranded for five days while Europe had to decide who would take those people in. Eight countries agreed to do so eventually.
His hard line stance on immigration has put Italy's controversial interior minister at odds with a number of European leaders.
Our Melissa Bell sat down with Matteo Salvini to talk about his approach to immigration.
MATTEO SALVINI, ITALIAN INTERIOR MINISTER (through translator): We have to understand what we mean by populism. It's used as an insult, but for me it's a compliment. If there is a lesson from Italy, it's that people want identity, security and jobs.
There is a beautiful reaction of the people against the dictatorship of finance that wants an immigration out of control.
MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's how Matteo Salvini explains his rise to power, power that his far-right anti-immigrant League Party now shares with the populist Five-Star Movement.
On the campaign trail, Italy's new interior minister used hard line rhetoric to fire up the voters. Now some fear that in power it could lead to a return to some of the darkest days of Italian history.
SALVINI: My problem is to enforce the law everywhere, even in that Roma camp interim that the Carabinieri have checked in the last hours, finding every kind of illegality. We're talking of 40,000 people living in Roma camps who have problem with an easy solution who is entitled to be in Italy, stays in Italy.
BELL: Which is why the interior minister has closed Italy's ports to NGO ships carrying migrants. His aim -- to force the rest of Europe to make the migrant crisis its own, rather than leaving it on Italy's doorstep. By getting tough, Salvini believes that Italy is finally calling the shots, not only on immigration but also on the future of Europe itself.
SALVINI: With nice words, we never obtained anything. In this month of government with our actions we managed to be listened to, the Spanish intervened, Malta must intervene, and so do the French, the German, the Dutch. Then it's clear that we need a different kind of politics.
We need to revisit the Dublin rules. We need to invest in Africa. But I think we obtained more in this month than in the previous six years of chatter.
BELL: Europe as Emmanuel Macron says represents values as well; values that you don't share with presidents like Emmanuel Macron. How is that going to play out in the future? It's very difficult to see how the poll (ph) project can survive the kind of challenge that you're presenting it with.
SALVINI: There are people who speak of values but don't put them into practice. We as League propose to include in our constitution our Judeo-Christian roots because we have a history. We have an identity, language, culture, tradition. So people like Macron who talk about values but doesn't recognize these values cannot give lessons to anyone, certainly not to Italy.
BELL: It is a message that Italy will be taking to the E.U. summit this week, that it is not the populists that need to change but rather time that Europe listen to the populists.
Melissa Bell, CNN -- Rome.
CHURCH: So let's talk more about the migrant crisis and European efforts to end it with Dominic Thomas. He is our European Affairs Commentator and joins us live from Berlin. Good to have you with us.
DOMINIC THOMAS, CNN EUROPEAN AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: Thank you.
CHURCH: So, Dominic -- E.U. leaders met earlier in the week and discussed the migration crisis confronting the region but didn't come up with any solutions. Why will it be any different when they discuss this matter in Brussels Thursday at this formal summit? THOMAS: Well, at least at the formal summit all the 28 countries that
are members of the European Union will be present. At the previous one, Hungary most notably, did not attend. So that will change the nature of the conversation.
And however, as they go into this, the divisions are absolutely, you know, striking. You have on the one hand a whole group of European leaders, as Melissa Bell's lead pointed out, that are talking about the common values of the European Union. And interestingly enough is that it's being framed in the context of the crisis of migration, that, in fact, since 2015 when this term was previously used the numbers were dramatically higher.
The irony, of course, here now is that the numbers are down, of course, they still represent tremendous pressure on countries that border the Mediterranean most notably, but really what we're dealing here is a greater and more fundamental political crisis that has to do with the direction in which the European Union is going.
CHURCH: Yes. And Dominic, the flood of refugees and migrants continues as those people try to find a new home somewhere in Europe, but the reality is nobody wants them. And Italy has taken a hard line and said it needs more help.
Will they get that help? And will there be a solution to this problem?
[01:35:02] THOMAS: Well, I think that in terms of finding a, you know, a long-term solution, I don't think the problem goes away until we tackle the roots of it. The roots of it, of course, are at least two-fold.
On the one hand, they have to do it with the push factors, the reasons why people are leaving areas of the African continent and coming to the European Union in the same way that people are coming from the Middle East because of conflict and instability into Europe at the same time.
But the other more fundamental question, and this came up earlier in the League, too, is this whole issue of nativism, of national identity and of the ideas of the Judeo-Christian roots of the European Union, one of the most fundamental things that Matteo Salvini, the Italian minister of the interior is asking for is better redistribution, resettlement that will take away some of the pressures from those countries with external borders such as Greece, Italy and Spain.
However, countries like Hungary have said that they want no part in that whatsoever. They've talked about these populations as being alien to the culture and the history of Hungary and they will not take part in it.
So one of the things the European Union is looking to do here, and this is in some ways there is a precedent for this, because as much as the European Union wants to be a kind of one size fits all organization, the fact is that different countries have not participated in all aspects of the E.U. such as the currency and border control.
And the European Union here is talking about having certain countries that get financial benefits from the European Union and that will resettle migrants. And that those that don't will not receive those fundings. So this will be an interesting development.
CHURCH: Yes, indeed.
And you know, the problem is we're seeing so many divisions and no one really is on the same page. And this was the problem when they initially met, even though Hungary wasn't there. And they have very different views on how this problem can be solved.
You mentioned the root of the problem -- getting to those countries of origin, some of those nations across Africa.
What can you do, though? What are the possible things that they can do? People are fleeing these countries because of various reasons. But how do you solve that at the point of origin?
THOMAS: Well, of course, that's the tremendous problem. So on the one hand, the European Union is talking about just simply the humanitarian aspect of it and the dangers that come with migration and talking about setting up essentially outsourcing centers that will deal with migrants before they actually engage in these perilous Mediterranean crossings.
There are obviously all kinds of human rights and regulatory issues that have to do with that, but the idea is let's prevent them from making the crossing and assess their asylum and the degree to which asylum could potentially be granted before they make that precarious crossing.
The other aspect of it, of course, is an age-old problem which has to do with the economic disparities between the African continent and the European states to name just one that go back to longstanding colonial relations and activities of the international global banking system and so on.
And so a lot of development measures have been put and implemented on the ground. But this is a much broader existential question that has to do with the relationship of European powers with African leaders, the kind of scrutiny to which these leaders are confronted, the question of corruption, and, of course, a whole range of environmental factors and political instability on the ground that contributes to pushing migrants out of these countries where there are so little economic opportunities.
CHURCH: Indeed. We'll be watching very closely to see if any solutions come out of this summit.
Dominic Thomas -- thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it.
THOMAS: Thank you -- Rosemary.
CHURCH: And we'll take a very short break here. > But next on CNN NEWSROOM, U.S. Support arrives in Thailand to help search for 13 people believed missing in a cave since Saturday.
[01:34:01] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHURCH: Dive operations in a cave to locate missing members of a Thai football team have been halted due to heavy rains and flooding. That is according to the regional governor.
Now, 12 teenage boys and their coach are believed to be trapped in the complex in northern Thailand and they've been there since Saturday. The U.S. military has sent about 30 search and rescue experts and the United Kingdom also sent in a team to help out.
Now, at the moment, trekking teams are still looking for cave entrances above ground. And, of course, it goes without saying, anguished relatives at the site can only wait and hope in makeshift tents.
Joining me now from Thailand is a man familiar with the area, Josh Morris, founder of Chiang Mai Rock Climbing. Two of his employees are helping with search efforts. Thank you so much for being with me.
JOSH MORRIS, FOUNDER, CHIANG MAI ROCK CLIMBING: Thank you for having me.
CHURCH: None of us can even imagine the anguish these parents are going through right now as they await word on their children. What have your two employees told you about their efforts to locate these 12 boys and their coach?
MORRIS: Well, I just checked in with the team and basically there are two operations happening right now. One is being taken care of by the Thai Navy SEALs and they are trying to use diving equipment to move up through the cave, through the entrance, through the portion that is flooded.
The second team is the team that my team has called (ph) in. There are about 40 people outside the cave trying to look at the topography and geology of the area and looking for possible entrances that would bypass the flooded section so that they can rappel down into the cave and maybe access the boys from there.
CHURCH: Now, I mean that looks like the more likely option at this stage, doesn't it? With the weather doing as it has, we have just reported, of course, that they've had to stop operations because of the continued flooding and the rain.
MORRIS: This is --
CHURCH: So -- sorry, yes.
MORRIS: It is raining. And that's one of the challenges with rainy season caving in this part of the world. You end up with all of that water falling on to typical farming land and then it all collects into a single catch bin and floods into the cave. That's why there is so much water in the cave.
They do have pumps operating right now to try and pull some of that water out, but they're having a hard time working against the rain. So the original dive section was about two kilometers inside the cave and the Navy SEALs had to dive for about 15 meters. Now that section is expanded to about 40 meters.
So I think you're right, it is looking like the hope is that there might be another access point from another section above the cave in the back.
CHURCH: How would they actually, I mean you're looking for an entrance or would they create some sort of entrance? Is that a possibility or is that too dangerous?
MORRIS: Well, so there are cave surveys. So we have a general idea of where the cave goes. And using just, you know, compass coordinates and figuring out and knowing where the entrance is. And you can look usually at the hillside and you'll see where the limestone is.
[01:45:00] The problem in Thailand and Southeast Asia is there is so much vegetation that it's kind of like finding a needle in a haystack to find that potential hole that might actually become a lead that leads into the bigger chambers. They have found a number of leads so far, but none of those have led to anything other than a dead end.
CHURCH: And there was discussion about the use of thermal technology. Was -- did anything come of that at all? That was possibly going to locate where the boys and their coach might be.
MORRIS: I'm unfamiliar with that at the moment, so I'm not entirely sure about that.
CHURCH: Right. And so, of course, we know that these teams from the United States and from the United Kingdom have arrived. How has that -- how are they organizing all of these teams? Because now presumably you've got so many people trying to -- all with the same goal, of course, to find these boys and their coach, but how is it being organized?
MORRIS: Well, as far as I know, it's being organized by those two brains (ph). I think the Navy and the Army are having a big role. And the thing about rescue, and especially cave rescue is there is a bit of a, like a brotherhood or a bond that exists among rescue workers where everybody is just working around the clock to see what they can to do to contribute to finding the boys.
And so people will be listening and looking to experts and with some of these advanced teams coming from the U.S. and the U.K. that should help. And hopefully they can -- they can get to them in time.
CHURCH: Yes. And Josh -- of course, the situation is with Thursday there. And this has been going on since Saturday. The concern is the welfare of these boys, obviously, and their coach. MORRIS: Yes.
CHURCH: Has anyone -- is everyone still thinking that these boys and their coach are alive?
MORRIS: Everyone is hopeful. I asked that question of my staff this morning, of what they thought. And people feel good that there is a chance that if they can get through the sections that are flooded or find a way around it, either through the diving with the cave divers or finding a way around it with ropes and alternate access, that there would be a good chance that the boys will still be in there.
They certainly have enough water in the cave because there are water sources and there are some natural seeps. But it kind of depends, you know, there could be all kinds of complications that come. If they get sick or they're being malnourished and obviously they're about five or six days in now. So my guess is they don't have a lot of food with them because they were planning on going in and out for a short trip.
CHURCH: Yes, absolutely. Josh Morris -- thank you so much for talking with us.
This is such a difficult story to report on. And of course we're all hoping that these boys and their coach are found alive and well. Thank you so much for speaking with us.
MORRIS: Thank you.
CHURCH: All right. So let's get more details on the weather conditions those rescuers face in Thailand. Derek Van Dam joins us now.
This -- I mean it is -- it's a horrible story. It makes me sick to the stomach to think how those parents are dealing with this. The rain is continuing, which makes it very difficult from the entrance. They're talking about finding an alternative entry into this cave system, and meanwhile the weather is not cooperating at all.
DEREK VAN DAM, AMS METEOROLOGIST: It's the rainy season in this part of the world. That lasts typically from July through November. We know that water is entering the cave system from two different entrance points.
I think it's important for people to understand, too, this passageway that the divers have had to suspend their operations -- that it extended now from 15 meters to now 40 meters. It's because the children and the rescue operations start at a large opening in the cave, but once that starts to narrow down it kind of moves into chambers and very narrow passageway so when water levels start to rise, it traps those areas and that makes oxygen a problem and rising floodwaters another major concern.
Let's get to the details. It's really interesting, too, because they're starting to bring over large water pumps, larger than what they've had over the past couple of days from Bangkok. The water pumps that they use to remove the water from their systems. But even those larger water pumps are struggling to drain the excess water that continues to filter into this caving system.
I have to start with this image because this is the warning sign just outside of the Thai cave, the entrance. And notice it says from July to November the cave is within flooding season. So this is an area that is known to flood and there are large warning signs on the outside of this caving system.
Again, the rainy season really begins June but it ramps up into July and August. So of course, we do expect more wet weather to come.
[01:49:55] This is the large entrance to the cave I was talking about. You can see the operations that are taking place at this, but again, it narrows quickly into these series of chambers and passageways.
This is a very high resolution Google Earth image. There's the cave entrance. You can see where they found some of the belongings in the target area that they're trying to get to, but it's this passageway -- this narrow, narrow sort of passageway that the divers have to orchestrate their way through.
And unfortunately the water levels continue to rise so they have had to what was an original dive of 15 meters in length has gone to 40 meters. And now it's been suspended because the water continues to get even worse and worse and more and more flooding is expected in this particular part of Thailand.
You can see more rain in the forecast. Here is some of the pumping systems that they're trying to use to take out the water from the caving system. Unfortunately, it is not being as successful as they had hoped, but they're going to continue those efforts because at this moment in time they'll take whatever they can get.
The good news is that the rain doesn't appear to be as heavy as what it was taking place over the past three days or so. So maybe a little bit of a respite from the extremely heavy rain. Perhaps that will take away from some of the flooding that's happened there, but all signs point to a very difficult situation going forward.
You think about what the divers have to deal with when water rushes into caves. It picks up leaves. It picks up debris. So it makes the water very murky; let alone, it's very dark in there as well.
CHURCH: Yes. All that visibility issue --
VAN DAM: Exactly.
CHURCH: -- then you have those currents.
VAN DAM: Exactly.
CHURCH: There's a lot of problems.
VAN DAM: Because divers themselves can get lost within the caving systems, the chambers and the narrow passageways. CHURCH: And disoriented, yes.
VAN DAM: That's right.
CHURCH: There are so many problems.
VAN DAM: So it's a danger for them as well.
CHURCH: Indeed. Derek -- thank you so much. We'll talk again next hour.
VAN DAM: Great.
CHURCH: Appreciate it.
Well, for many climbers, conquering Mt. Everest is the adventure of a lifetime. Making it to the top of the world's tallest mountain is often a personal journey and a very dangerous one.
CNN followed two British adventurers on their dramatic expedition to the top of the world. The team had to cross deep crevasses and negotiate fierce storms.
But that wasn't all. Their worst nightmare happened in the so-called Death Zone when their oxygen supply failed not once, but three times. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that my -- my mask is blown. Ok. Go ahead. Ben takes two cylinders. I take three cylinders and then we go back to South Col.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He still gets so many bonus.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- South Col is very hard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ok. What do you suggest?
What's your plan?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: Did they make it to the top? You can find out on "THE CHALLENGE: EVEREST". It is a three-part documentary airing exclusively on CNN starting this Saturday. >
Let's take a very short break. But next here on CNN NEWSROOM, America's first lady is known for her fashion statements, sometimes with controversial consequences. What will she we wearing when she hits the road next time?
We're back in a moment with that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [01:55:04] CHURCH: Well, Melania Trump is set to travel in the next few days to see immigration facilities. Her trip to the U.S.-Mexico border area last week to see migrant children who were being detained was overshadowed by a controversial clothing choice she made. Will the U.S. first lady make a fashion statement this time? CNN's Jeanne Moos takes a look.
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, apparently a lot of people care about Melania Trump's "I really don't care, do you?" jacket and many are offering tips on what Melania should wear next. Suggestions like, "November is coming" and "Help me".
STEPHEN COLBERT, TV HOST: A jacket that says, "Womp-womp".
MOOS: If she still doesn't care, "I feel roughly the same as last week".
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's officially the Marie Antoinette of this administration that she'll just say let them eat cake.
MOOS: Pleaded one Twitter user, "please wear this next time, a 'less drama' T-shirt by Zara," the company that made Melania's original jacket. The $39 item is no longer available. But on eBay, a couple of women who purchased the exact same jacket awhile back were getting bids of up to $895.
The Democrats are raising money selling a T-shirt playing off Melania's outfit, "We care, we vote, do you?"
Party officials say it's by far the best-selling DNC store item of all time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is kind of sweet that she made a jacket out of her and Donald's wedding vows. That's really cool.
MOOS: A graffiti artist on Etsy is hand-painting slogans like, "give back the kids" and selling them for $125. Of course Melania's jacket has its own Twitter account, spitting out pithy tweets like "The Devil Wears Zara".
The first lady learned on her first trip that jackets speak louder than words. Variations have jumped on to the backs of cartoon characters.
JIMMY KIMMEL, TV HOST: Is the President now tweeting on to his wife's clothes?
MOOS: Didn't anyone have Melania's back to protect her from inspiring flak with her own jacket? "My husband made a deal with North Korea and all he got was this lousy jacket".
Jeanne Moos, CNN --
JIMMY FALLON, TV HOST: President Trump was going through his closet like, where the hell is my coat?
MOOS: -- New York.
CHURCH: And you're watching CNN NEWSROOM. I'll be back with more news right after this short break.