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President Trump Launches Broadside Against Protesting NFL Players as Charlottesville Anniversary Approaches; Charlottesville: One Year Later; How Heather Heyer's Mother Honors Her Legacy; "Manhattan Madam" Testifies Before Mueller Grand Jury; Special Counsel Focuses In On Former Trump Aide Roger Stone; Bank Office Testifies About Millions In Loans After Mystery Delay; Pres. Trump Private Attorneys Repeat Insistence Of No "Perjury Trap" For The Client; CA Fires Burn As Arson Suspect Appears In Court; Fires Burn As Arson Suspect Appears In Court. Aired on 8-9p ET

Aired August 10, 2018 - 20:00   ET


[20:00:20] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening.

We begin tonight with hundreds of extra police officers assembling in Charlottesville, Virginia for the one-year anniversary of the march by white supremacists and neo-Nazis that ended in violence and a death a counterprotester named Heather Heyer. Her mother Susan joins us in a few minutes.

Heather Heyer was there to protest against racism. She was killed when a man plowed his car into a crowd. Her alleged killer, a suspected neo-Nazi.

The images of happened in Charlottesville, the violence, the torch-lit march by hundreds of young white men chanting anti-Semitic and racist slogans should never be forgotten.


MARCHERS: Jews will not replace us! Jews will not replace us! Jews will not replace us!


COOPER: Jews will not replace us, they were saying. A year ago this weekend, in Charlottesville, there is a state of emergency ins effect and across the entire commonwealth. So far, the president has said nothing about it, and nothing about the racist and white supremacists will mark the anniversary across the street from the White House on Sunday. The president has so far said nothing about what happened one year ago this weekend.

He has chosen this upcoming anniversary to renew his attacks on African-American football players who are protesting during the national anthem. Quote: The NFL players are at it again, he tweeted, taking a knee when they should be standing proudly for the national anthem. Numerous players and different teams wanted to show their outrage at something that most of them are unable to define. Stand proudly for your national anthem, he added, or be suspended without pay.

The players he is talking about are calling attention to racial injustice. The president in that tweet is suggesting they don't even know what they're protesting, saying most of them are unable to define it. In the past, he has called them sons of bitches. Now, he seems to be implying they lack intelligence.

Calling people stupid is certainly something the president has done before. Most recently, he suggested LeBron James was dumb. We know he thinks Congresswoman Maxine Waters is as well. He has repeatedly called her low IQ.

Keeping them honest, it's not as if remarks like those come out of the blue. There is history here. Mr. Trump built his political brand on the allegation that the first African American president was not a legitimate citizen. He demanded to see the African-American president's grades in college.

Sources tell CNN he more recently asked White House staffers why the U.S. should be letting people into the country from places like Haiti and African nations instead of, say, Norway.

Perhaps this weekend, on the anniversary of Charlottesville, with neo- Nazis gathering outside the White House on Sunday, he will say or tweet something to help bring the nation together, to loudly and clearly express disdain for white supremacists and for David Duke and neo-Nazis like him. So far as the weekend approach, he chose again to once again lash out at protesting football players, predominantly African-American one, words that do nothing to unite the country, but certainly seem aimed at uniting a part of the country he seems to care most often about, his base.

That said, just a few moments ago, he did tweet about the African- American community. He thanked Kanye West for his support and pointed to record low African-American unemployment.

Again, Susan Bro joins us shortly, Heather Heyer's mom.

But, first, let's go to CNN's Boris Sanchez who joins us not from the president's golf club in Bedminster, New Jersey.

So, Boris, when the president says that most of the protesting NFL players are unable to define what they're protesting about, has there been any clarity from the White House about what exactly he meant by that? Because, obviously, the players have been very clear what they're protesting.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Anderson. Colin Kaepernick and others have been very clear this is not about the troops as President Trump has previously suggested or simply disrespecting the flag, but about rather social injustice, a dispute about the justice system and police brutality. What's notable here is that though President Trump argues that his players have a difficult time defining exactly what they're protesting, he revealed earlier this year that he clearly understands their motives.

I want you to listen to this sound bite from President Trump in June.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have a great country. You should stand for our national anthem. You shouldn't go in a locker room when our national anthem is playing.

I'm going ask all of those people to recommend to me, because that's what they're protesting, people that they think were unfairly treated by the justice system. And I understand that. And I'm going ask them to recommend to me people that were unfairly treated, friends of theirs or people that they know about, and I'm going to take a look at those applications. And if I find and my committee finds that they're unfairly treated, then we will pardon them or at least let them out.


SANCHEZ: Now, Anderson, these fresh tweets have sparked criticism, suggesting that the president is yet again, pardon the pun, using this issue as a political football to rile up his base.

[20:05:03] We should point out that nothing ever came of the president's request there that these players offer up their friends, as he calls them, who have been incarcerated. Players, though, have maintained that this is about a broader social issue, not about specific people, Anderson.

COOPER: Is there any sense of how the Charlottesville anniversary is -- if it's on the president's radar, what he might say this -- or tweet this weekend? Has the White House given any indication?

SANCHEZ: Well, Anderson, I have to tell you that for several days, CNN has been asking the White House press shops specifically for a comment, for anything, any kind of guidance as to how the president feels about having these white supremacists marching just steps from the White House. They have not responded.

And that is important, because previously, after the riots in Charlottesville, the president came out and laid that statement that was so criticized about there being fine people on both sides, the White House then having to clarify the president's position after that. This is something they know is coming, but yet it appears that they would rather wait and see how it plays out than distancing themselves immediately from these racists.

COOPER: Boris Sanchez, I appreciate it.

I want to dig deeper with respect to Charlottesville, the president's choice again to go after NFL players. Joining us now is Van Jones, host of CNN's "THE VAN JONES SHOW" and the Reverend Michael Faulkner, who is also a former New York Jet.

Van, I'm wondering what you make of the president -- what he means when he says that the players are unable to define what they're protesting? VAN JONES, CNN HOST, "THE VAN JONES SHOW": Well, you know, it's hard

not to see that in the worst possible light, that he's not just saying he disagrees with them, that he thinks they're just too dumb to express themselves. I think they've been expressing themselves quite eloquently, on the field and off the field.

Don't also forget, a lot of these young players now are not just doing the protest on the field, they're getting involved in their community. They're speaking out. They're registering voters. There is a lot of stuff going on. I think it's sad the president hasn't acknowledged that.

This is really unfortunate because you just saw the president say I want to engage. I'm willing to take on the issue. In fact, he is making some positive steps substantively on criminal justice at the policy level, but the politics for him always come back to insulting black people. And so, you have a tale of two president sis where he is actually taking seriously some of these issues. He's met with governors about criminal justice, and then the same day he goes back to the old nonsense of insulting black people and riling up his base.

COOPER: Reverend Faulkner, is this just about getting the base, I mean, riling up the base?

REV. MICHAEL FAULKNER, FORMER NFL PLAYER: You mean with the president?

COOPER: The president making --

FAULKNER: I don't know, I don't know. I've got no idea why he wants to take this issue on. I don't think it's wise for him to do that.

But let me tell you what I would do if I was a player, which I was. I salute my flag. Whenever I get an opportunity, I do salute my flag. Not because America is perfect, but because of the ideals of America. And I will always salute that.

That said, I do support these players and their right to protest. I think it is unwise, and I think there are a lot of other good things they can be doing. Van just mentioned some of the good things that they were doing. I'm doing a lot of good things in our community, and I just moved to Philadelphia. We're doing a lot of good things at the Urban Hope, you know, the Urban Hope Center there.

But my point is, there is a lot of positive things that can be done that need to be done, that need to be recognized rather than taking the national stage and protesting the United States of America.

COOPER: You said you didn't think it was wise for the president to bring this up. I don't know if it's just a coincidence that he is bringing up on the eve of the anniversary of Charlottesville. I don't know why that -- he would link the two at all.

But just as an observer, obviously you can't get in his head as to why he is saying this, it certainly does seem to -- he certainly has said to other people that this works for his base, and that clearly seems to be why he continues to do it, because he's already brought up this issue. It's not as if this is -- there is no ground here.

FAULKNER: Here is the thing about the president, who I voted for, by the way, OK? Let's put that out there. Full disclosure, all right?

He is a politician/entertainer. We take him way too seriously. The office of the presidency of the United States is much more important than some of the antics that our president engages in. It's embarrassing. Sometimes it's embarrassing. Sometimes I'm, you know, enhanced.

But I do know I am an American. I have to live my life regardless of what the president does. And I know I'm on a national media platform right now and we're talking about the president, but I think we get way too much in the weeds on what the president does or doesn't do.

I just think because we have a Congress, our Constitution is set up so that the president can't shipwreck the country.

JONES: Well, so far. But I think -- I understand what you're saying. And I think sometimes people do get too upset about stuff. But at the end of the day, leadership matters.

[20:10:00] And when you don't have a forthright condemnation of a Nazi march outside of the White House, that sends a signal. That's just not people setting hair on fire for no reason. That sends a signal that there is a bunch of people that 99 percent of Americans don't want to have anywhere around them, it's OK.

I'm very concerned about this weekend. I'm concerned that we're going to go into a weekend where there's pain, where there's steer and we will not have presidential leadership.

And silence may seem like consent. Silence may seem like affirmation. And we should -- I agree with you. There is other stuff to be worrying about. But a growth of a Nazi movement unopposed in our country by the president is bad.

FAULKNER: We can't have it. It's -- it's -- I don't want to say nonsensical, but it's outrageous that that would not be decried. And as a Republican who supported the president.

I would say Mr. President, please decry these Nazi racist crazy people walking across the street from the White House. I mean, we've got to denounce this stuff.


FAULKNER: Now, that said, my friends, my brothers, the fraternity of the NFL, these guys have a great platform. They can make a huge difference. These are game-changers in their community.

And, by the way, the show that we were on that we did last year -- I mean, it was some great things that were said about the positive things the NFL, the league, the owners have done some things positive. I think there is a lot of positive things that we have. I don't understand why it's still necessary for these guys to take a knee or raise a fist. I don't understand.

JONES: Because the conditions have not changed. You got to remember, we're old guys now. You're talking about some of these guys are two, three years out of the hood.

When they go home for thanksgiving dinner, their cousins, their uncles, their aunts are still dealing with a police force that are sometimes more hostile than three neighborhoods over, and they don't feel that -- yes, the conversation may have changed, the conditions haven't changed, and they want to keep protesting.

Listen, I think it's as been an overall net-net constructive intervention. I've never seen athletes in my lifetime have this kind of impact on national conversation for better or for worse. And I hope they continue to use --


FAULKNER: -- Jim Brown.

JONES: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, but in my lifetime, this has been one of the most effective interventions by athletes and I think we should be proud of them for caring enough.

They could just be worrying about their sneaker deals and that would be worse.

FAULKNER: Oh, that's horrible.

Anderson, it would be interesting to follow up, find out what they're doing. How many are really engaged in the community. I mean, they have foundations.

JONES: More right now.

FAULKNER: And we need to find out who they are, and we need to report that. That needs to be what's reported rather than just simply say hey, they're protesting. It's like, OK.


JONES: But LeBron James obviously did more. He supports the protests for Colin Kaepernick. And then while President Trump is putting babies in prison cells, LeBron is putting children in classrooms, and he gets called dumb. So, at what point can these young people win?

FAULKNER: I mean, at this point, they can make a difference. They can stand up for their communities. They can show up and be counted. There is so much that's going on in the communities.

I just moved in to inner city Philadelphia from Harlem, and I'm telling you, it's amazing the opportunity that we have to make a difference in people's lives if we love them and care for them and show up every day.

COOPER: Well, it's interesting, though you. I mean, you talk about the office of the president as being more important than the president himself. And I hear what you're saying in that.

It is, though, you know, in past administrations people talked about the bully pulpit the president has.


COOPER: Under this president, it is actually a bully pulpit in many cases because there is actually bullying going on, despite the good efforts of the first lady. But the whole idea of the office of the president does carry a weight to it, and it does -- you talk about leadership. That is the ultimate in somebody at the top saying to somebody in any community, I see you, I hear you, I care about you.

JONES: You know what drives me crazy? This is a tale of two presidencies. Literally, you have the president of the United States this week met with Republican governors to talk about how to do criminal justice reform, how to do prison reform.

And then he turns literally around in the same news cycle, destroys all that coverage, and picks a dumb fight. So, you got the policy moving in this direction.


COOPER: But he clearly sees as fight -- I mean, he's not dumb. He clearly sees it that there is a political advantage among the people --

FAULKNER: You mean, for the, quote/unquote, racist base?

COOPER: I'm not saying it's a racist base. I'm saying for his base, and I'm not calling them racist. But, you know, there's plenty of people who don't like the protests and they're not racists. They just don't think it's the right venue.

FAULKNER: And I'm one of those.

COOPER: Right. But his message certainly appeals to his base.

FAULKNER: Yes, I mean, I guess.

[20:15:00] But when we define a base like that, most Americans love America. Most --


FAULKNER: Hey, they -- I called them patriots before, OK? I've never decried their patriotism. I'm just saying I would choose to do it another way, OK. But with their patriotism and with the patriotism that we have for most Americans, we need to come together. There needs to be positive reinforcement for those things that these NFL guys are doing. It would be great to have a show on that.

And then, then we can say to the president, Mr. President, see what these guys are doing. Let's say -- he should have a conference at the White House, a White House conference on social justice reform and see -- and have some of these guys show up because they are very, very intelligent. Have some of them show up and talk about what they're doing.

COOPER: Reverend Faulkner, thanks very much. Van Jones as well.

A lot more on this when we come back. The mom of Heather Heyer killed in Charlottesville will join us. How her own views on race changed in this last year and how she is honoring her daughter's life and carrying on her legacy. That's when we continue.

Also tonight, just what is Robert Mueller up to? A busy and sometimes mysterious court date for his team appear in action for the grand jury, and questions surrounding much of it. We'll piece the clues together ahead on the program.


[20:20:24] COOPER: If you've ever been there, you know how beautiful Charlottesville, Virginia, is. This weekend, though, it will not be full of picture postcard moments. With the police presence, the possibility of fresh protests and, of course, deep scars from last year.

In just a moment, you'll hear from Heather Heyer's mom Susan about how this year has been for her and how it's changed her.

First, Randi Kaye with what happened one year ago.


MARCHERS: Jews will not replace us!

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This was the scene one year ago this weekend in Charlottesville, Virginia. Dozens of white nationalists carrying torches and shouting racist chance. The protest was in response to the Charlottesville City council's plan to remove a statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee from a nearby park.

Officers were hoping the rally would be peaceful. They were wrong.

By morning, fistfights and screaming matches broke out before the rally even started. Some neo-Nazis carried a guns and chanted "white lives matter."

Both sides fired pepper spray. Police desperately tried to disperse the crowd, declaring it an unlawful assembly. By early afternoon, police were in riot gear.

It turned deadly when around 1:30 p.m., a man drove a Dodge Challenger into a crowd of people.

BRENNAN GILMORE, CHARLOTTESVILLE WITNESS: The car deliberately targeting, lining up and then gunning the engine to do maximum damage on the crowd. He smashed into the crowd. Bodies went flying.

KAYE: Photographer Ryan Kelly took these photos at the scene. RYAN KELLY, CHARLOTTESVILLE WITNESS: Drove over the sidewalk and came

barreling down at full speed into the crowd, immediately put it into reverse and reversed at speed back up the hill and took off down the side street.

KAYE: When it was over, 32-year-old Heather Heyer was dead. Dozens of others were injured.

TADRINT WASHINGTON, SURVIVED CHARLOTTESVILLE CRASH: I saw a woman tumbling down on my windshield and just laying there. And I kind of like closed my eyes because I didn't know what I was seeing was real.

MICAH WASHINGTON, SURVIVED CHARLOTTESVILLE CRASH: I remember Heather Heyer being on the ground near the back of my sister's car. There were EMTs all around her, but I remember particularly the EMT that was giving her CPR at the time. He was using all of his might, all of his force to try and revive her.

KAYE: The driver of the car that plowed into the crowd was arrested and charged. He's pleaded not guilty and is awaiting trial.

That same day, two state troopers were killed when their helicopter crashed while patrolling the area.

In response to it all, President Donald Trump didn't denounce the hate groups involved. Instead, he said this.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry, and violence on many sides. On many sides.

MARCHERS: Go away, racist, sexist, anti-gay!

KAYE: The backlash was swift, yet three days later, the president doubled down on his remarks.

TRUMP: You look at both sides, I think there is blame on both sides.

REPORTER: The neo-Nazis started this thing in Charlottesville. They started in --

TRUMP: Excuse me, excuse me. They didn't put themselves down. And you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides.

KAYE: The images seem to tell a different story.

Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.


COOPER: Well, those images go without saying, will never leave the woman you're about to meet, Heather Heyer's mom who had the sad duty and the privilege of carrying out her late daughter's legacy. Susan Bro now runs the Heather Heyer Foundation, a scholarship program for people with a passion for social justice. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Susan, thank you so much for joining us. I know this is obviously a tough weekend. Any anniversary is difficult. First of all, just how you holding up? How has this year been for you?

SUSAN BRO, MOTHER OF HEATHER HEYER: I'm so busy doing interviews this weekend, I don't have much time to think. But check came in the mail today for the estate of Heather Heyer. And I -- those words always tear at my heart. I bawled like a baby for about ten minutes, and then I pulled it together and said, OK, back to work.

And so that's how I'm getting through the weekend is I'm staying busy. And then I'm going to collapse Sunday night and collapse Monday and then Tuesday I'm back at work again, because that's what you do. You survive. You don't give up.

The past year has been surreal. People like Spike Lee, Bernie Sanders, they know my name.

[20:25:05] They have my phone number, you know. That's kind of crazy.

And, yes, just -- I'm just really trying to push hard now, though. Let's take the focus off Heather as Heather would want us to do. It's been a year now, and let's focus on why she was there. Let's focus on what she died for. Let's focus on the issues that we have yet to resolve.

With the Heather Heyer Foundation, I'm trying to find her replacements. I'm trying to pass that baton off, but I also want people to focus on the fact that we need to address the racial issues in our country.

COOPER: I'm wondering if you feel like your eyes were opened not by what happened to your daughter, but by the public displays that we saw in Charlottesville last year, people, you know, men marching through the streets with torches, chanting "Jews will not replace us" and attacking other people.

BRO: I know. That was insane. I -- I think it -- those of White House weren't paying attention, sadly, that was a big shock. Those who were paying attention, knew it was coming. And it definitely snapped our heads around.

I'm sorry that somebody had to die before we paid attention, honestly. But, you know, there are lots of people who were physically wounded, who were assaulted, who still are dealing with surgeries and still dealing with trauma. And some people will never recover from last year.

And that was quite an assault on our soul as well. And hate is a nasty bit of acid to our psyche. And we really need to not have hate in our world.

But the only way we're going to do that is to fix the problems. We can't just spackle this over if we just try to cover this over, if we try to rush into healing this, we're going to be right back here in a few years.

COOPER: You've spent the last year carrying on Heather's legacy of a new foundation, the Heather Heyer Foundation.

BRO: Right.

COOPER: Stepping into her activist shoes. What do you see? What do you want to have change? What have you been fighting for?

BRO: Well, I'm looking for those kids who are already motivated for positive change, for positive nonviolent change and I'm saying fine. I'll help your education. I'll help your training. I'll help give you practical experience.

I'm not trying to create activists. Some kids are automatically that way, and I'm looking for those kids, and we're looking to support their endeavors, to support their education, support their training.

COOPER: Virginia, Charlottesville are already under state's emergency.

BRO: Right.

COOPER: People are on edge, from your city, the nation's capital. What would be your message to people this weekend?

BRO: Don't let your guard down. Be aware of your surroundings. You don't need to be paranoid, but you need to be aware there is a difference. You don't need to live in fear, but you need to live in a little bit higher state of alert.

This too shall pass, and just realize that when people hate, there are going to be problems. And there's really no place for hate.

COOPER: I want -- I want to ask you something that I read that I wasn't sure was true. I've read that you had to keep the location of Heather's grave secret because of concern that neo-Nazis would go there and deface it. Is that -- is that true?

BRO: Partly. The cemetery and I both agreed that there is no need for anybody to visit Heather's grave. Even well-wishers would end up trampling other people's graves. Some mistaken person would maybe break some things or deliberately.

But I will tell you that Emmett Till's marker was recently shot up. In fact, it gets shot up on a recent basis, violently used those markers, was not too long ago defaced. There are people in the world who will do stupid things like that.

One time, I don't think it's happened again because we called them out on it, but one time there were New Testament, candles, flowers and things at Heather's memorial. I went to visit and somebody had urinated all over everything and left a note saying it's OK to be white again.

So, yes, there are people who will do stupid things like that. So we just -- I just keep it private. The downtown memorial is where people can pay their respects and they don't need to bother her ashes.


COOPER: Susan Bro, I appreciate all you're doing and I appreciate you talking to us tonight.

BRO: Thank you, Anderson.

COOPER: Well one quick final note, the foundation Susan Bro runs and the scholarships she sponsors, if you want to help you can donate at the website

Coming up, a woman known as the "Manhattan Madam" was scheduled to testify before the grand jury can be in the Mueller investigation today. She is also a close friend to Roger Stone, of course is a former associate of President Trump.

And later after hours, behind close doors, testimony finally resumed to the Paul Manafort trial where prosecutor say they are on the verge of wrapping up their case.


COOPER: A woman once known as the "Manhattan Madam" was scheduled to testify today before grand jury and panel by special counsel Robert Mueller as part of the Russian investigation. She's a close friend of Roger Stone a long time confidant of President Trump Roger Stone is.

Meantime, another associate of stone, Andrew Miller defied a subpoena to testify. His attorney saying they intend to appeal that order to appear. Jessica Schneider has more details.

[20:34:59] So Kristin Davis, who was once known as the "Manhattan Madam", she was testified to -- scheduled to testify as Mueller appears to be focusing in on Roger Stone. What's the latest?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you know, she's likely of big interest to the special counsel because of her close friendship and the fact that she is a long-time associate of Roger Stone. In fact, they've been friends for more than a decade now. It was in 2010 in fact that Roger Stone served as her strategist when she ran for governor of New York State. Of course that was an unlikely and ultimately unsuccessful bid for governor, probably because of her notoriety as the "Manhattan Madam".

But interestingly as well, Kristin Davis also worked for Roger Stone in late 2016, she did some clerical work for his website. So, given the fact that Roger Stone during the campaign, during 2016 talked about the fact that he had talked with Julian Assange. Of course he later walked that back. But given that fact, Kristin Davis is probably of interest to the special counsel so she -- maybe shed some light of what she knows about this possible interaction between Roger Stone and Julian Assange. But yes, Anderson she did testify before the grand jury today.

COOPER: What about Andrew Miller at this former aide to Roger Stone. He was held in contempt?

SCHNEIDER: Right. So Kristin Davis, she answer herd subpoena. She was here before the grand jury. Andrew Miller did not. He refused to comply with that subpoena. And as a result, the judge here held him in contempt. He issued a 93-page opinion about it. What's interesting, though, is the judge actually put that contempt ruling on hold until Monday. That's so Andrew Miller's attorneys can go through the appeal process here. You know, they're arguing that the appointment of special counsel Mueller in and of itself is unconstitutional, so they said just by virtue of that fact that their subpoenas shouldn't have to be complied with.

So they're in the midst of appealing that as this all goes to the process. But, yes, Andrew Miller, an associate of Roger Stone, but refusing to comply with the subpoena, refusing to go before the grand jury today.

COOPER: And now there is another player and there's the guy who Roger Stone says was his WikiLeaks back channel has been subpoenaed to testify.

SCHNEIDER: That's exactly right. Randy Credico. He is a comedian, a radio talk show how, an associate once again with Roger Stone. It's interesting because he initially rebuffed Robert Mueller's request for a voluntary interview. He said, no to that. But then today he's attorney tells us and he was served with a subpoena. He does plan to comply with that subpoena. The subpoena, when he is supposed to go before the grand jury, that's set for September 7th, an interesting date because just earlier this week we heard from Rudy Giuliani saying that he expected this entire Mueller probe to be wrapped up by September 1st.

So, obviously we see this probe going full steam ahead. This particular subpoena will be answered on September 7. So obviously, Anderson, the probe will not in fact be wrapped up by September 1st as Giuliani had hoped for perhaps.

COOPER: All right. Jessica Schneider, thanks very much.

The end of another week at the Paul Manafort trial just outside of Washington. The first big courtroom case to stem from Mueller's investigation. It took a while for proceedings to get under way today as the judge huddled with both prosecutors and defense attorneys in what ultimately led to a five-hour delay. Jim Sciutto is there for us today.

So the prosecution was on schedule to rest today before the delay. Any word on what that was all about?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Listen, it's a mystery, and the judge has instructed the discussions of the reason behind that delay be kept between the judge and the lawyers involved. What we're really doing here is reading tea leaves, Anderson, based on what the judge said after that delay. He gave instructions to the jury that said a couple of things. Said one, don't speak about this trial. Don't speak about your thoughts about this trial. And two, in his words, keep an open mind. It gives an indicator, certainly not confirmed that he -- one of the jurors did or said something that is outside the rules.

Remember jurors aren't allowed to talk to anybody about the case. And they aren't allowed to watch the news about the case, et cetera. That's a possibility. But we just don't know because the judge is keeping those details secret. What we do know is they did eventually come back to court and dive right back into things in the afternoon. So, it doesn't appear that whatever the issue was, was severe enough to stop the trial. I mean you've --

COOPER: Right.

SCIUTTO: -- had trials go to mistrial because of misbehavior like this. But they went back to it and are scheduled to be back on Monday.

COOPER: And so once it resumed there was testimonies suggesting Manafort's role managing the Trump campaign helped him win millions of dollars in loans? Is that correct?

SCIUTTO: It is. I mean, there are a couple of interesting developments right at the merits today. The first one is this, they brought in, you know, what's the importance of Yankees tickets. The importance here that brought in someone from the Yankees who testified to in their e-mails to this that in 2011, Paul Manafort instructed for his season tickets to the Yankees, we're talking about couple 100,000 bucks here, these were good seats, he e-mailed instructions for that payment to be made from one of those many bank accounts in Cyprus that he set up for the express purpose of avoiding taxes.

[20:40:02] What's important than is it shows that Manafort was in charge of that transaction. Defense attorneys had to portray Rick Gates as kind of the mastermind of all this and Paul Manafort just sort of a bystander. But they use that example to show, listen, he knew about these accounts and he was instructing how those funds from those accounts would be used. The other interesting case, Anderson, relates to a fraudulent bank loan, a bank loan that Manafort received with the help of a senior executive at the Federal Savings Bank. What's interesting than is that the senior executive later, Paul Manafort pushed for him to be secretary of the army.

So question being of course was there some sort of quid pro quo there. It also shows that Paul Manafort kept some influence, or at least the appearance of influence in the Trump administration after he left his position as chairman of the campaign. Anderson.

COOPER: And are prosecutors on track to finish things up on Monday? And any idea how long the defense might take? Do we know how many people they're going to call?

SCIUTTO: Well, on the first question, yes, it looks like it, because we did expect prosecution to wrap up today before that delay. But listen, you know, barring any other delays or surprise issues or court issuance's over the weekend, that seems to be likely, the big question for the defense, I've spoken to the defense attorneys a number of times. I've asked them that very question. Of course they're going to keep their cards close to their chest. But we do know that this judge is someone who wants to wrap this trial up in about a week or so. But it's not entirely up to him. If the defense wants to keep going on an issue, they'll keep going.

COOPER: All right, Jim Sciutto, thanks very much.

President Trump's private lawyers took into national radio air waves today, filling in for Sean Hannity, both lawyers agreeing and then agreeing some more that they wouldn't let their client fall into what they like to call a perjury trap.

Just ahead, we got details of what both Giuliani and Jay Sekulow had to say.


[20:45:43] COOPER: At the invitation of Fox News host Sean Hannity, President Trump's two TV lawyers took over Hannity's national radio talk show today, saying that the President has a desire to explain his innocence. That would be innocent of possible accusations of obstruction of justice and of conspiring with Russian authorities to influence the 2016 election, among other things. Here is just a portion of what they had to say.


RUDY GIULIANI, DONALD TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: You know, he takes this very seriously. He does have a desire to -- he does have a desire to explain that he is innocent, which he is. But he also understands his role as President, and that he just can't throw aside prerogatives of the presidency.

JAY SEKULOW, DONALD TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: We're going to make the right advice to our client. There will be no perjury trap. I've said that. You've said that on air. There's no perjury trap here. We're not -- because we're not going to allow it.

GIULIANI: No, no, no. I mean that's so obviously one of the things they're trying to do, that it's not easy, but we can certainly protect against that.


COOPER: They're chewing over whether the President will ultimately agree to an one-on-one or excuse on the record interview with special counsel Mueller. That of course is still something to be determined. With me now is Michael Mukasey, the former attorney general, former federal judge and long time friend of Rudy Giuliani as well.

Judge, thanks for being with us. Do you think the President should sit down for an interview with Mueller?

MICHAEL MUKASEY, FMR ATTORNEY GENERAL: One word answer, no. From his own standpoint, I think it's a mistake. From the standpoint of evidence gathering, I think they pretty much got all the answers and all his views about what he did or didn't do.

COOPER: You don't think that Mueller really needs the President?

MUKASEY: Correct. And I think we would have to show necessity in order to compel it. And finally, there is a point to be made about the prerogatives of the presidency. All presidents worry about that. The president I served under worried about that, that is complying with whether it's a congressional subpoena, or a congressional request, whether a request of another branch of the executive to do something. Influences what later Presidents can and can't do. And all Presidents are conscious of that.

COOPER: There are some --

MUKASEY: Their advisers.

COOPER: There are some who have said that it is important for Mueller to talk to the President in order to understand intent, in order to get what was in the president's mind. You say no.

MUKASEY: No. First of all, that is something that might be germane in a criminal case, there isn't going to be any criminal case here. Secondly, the President has already talk about what his intent was or was not. He said he didn't have the conversation with Comey, if that's what we're talking about. So that's a dry hole.

COOPER: OK, the other thing that we hear from -- in that radio interview from Giuliani and Jay Sekulow a lot is the idea of a perjury trap, that they believe -- that they don't want to have a President in a perjury trap.

MUKASEY: Just one other point about what was in his mind.


MUKASEY: The firing of James Comey. That was something he had the right under the constitution to do. And in any event, the obstruction of an FBI investigation is not obstruction of justice within the meaning of the statute. It may sound odd, but it's not. And the U.S. attorney's manual is very clear on that. It's there is case law on that. The obstruction statutes don't cover that. So, even if that was his intent, which I seriously doubt, because the investigation went on that wasn't being investigated by Comey in any intent, that's not covered. Now, to your next question.

COOPER: Yes. Well, let's play what I think was Giuliani saying or Sekulow saying about -- to say if Giuliani is saying about the idea of a perjury trap. I want to play.


GIULIANI: We're walking him into a possible perjury trap, not because he isn't telling the truth, but because somebody else isn't telling the truth who they would credit, namely Comey. So if he says I never had a conversation with Flynn and they elect to believe Comey, they can write down -- we believe he committed perjury, and now we have walked him into that.


COOPER: I mean, there is a lot of other legal analysts who I have talk to who said this notion of a perjury trap, I mean if you're telling the truth, it's not -- there is not a perjury trap.

MUKASEY: Well, not entirely. You may recall things differently. There may be more than one witness who tells a different story for a variety of reasons. And then you're stuck with a perjury charge. However, I don't think that question of whether he had the conversation with Comey or not is really the perjury trap anybody is concerned about. I think it has to do with the meeting in Trump Tower and whether he knew about it in advance or not. He says he didn't. There may be other people who say he did. And that, I think, is the worrisome issue.

[20:50:00] COOPER: But is it just that someone else says, well, he did know about it. The President says he didn't. And -- I mean Alan Dershowitz and the attorneys for the President are seem to imply that Mueller will disagree with somebody who doesn't have the same opinion. I mean if there's documentation, I could understand that would be obviously a concern.


COOPER: But if -- if the President is telling the truth and it's just a he said/he said, it doesn't seem like Mueller is going to go just out of spite to believe somebody else.

MUKASEY: It's possibly somebody, you know, drafted a self-serving memo at the time saying, I told him about the meeting or some other event.

COOPER: You don't think, though, this notion of a perjury trap is really contingent -- is because of the President's, you know, look, he said many things which are not true publicly, and that they are legitimately concerned he might say something that is not true.

MUKASEY: If has said things that are not true publicly, then he's already said them, and they've got proof to the contrary if they want to press it.

COOPER: Well, I mean he could said stuff about, you know, he's talked about illegal immigrants, millions of illegal immigrants voting. So who knows what he's actually going to say during that interview.

MUKASEY: He's talked about -- who knows what he's going to say during the interview is not a basis for conducting the interview. You have to show a need for the evidence, and I don't -- I honestly don't think there's a need for it.

COOPER: Judge Mukasey, I appreciate your time.

MUKASEY: Thank you.

COPER: Always interesting. Let's check in with Chris to see what he's working on for "CUOMO PRIME TIME" at the top of the hour. Chris?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: A.G. Mukasey is a smart man. However you're making a good point, Anderson. Don't let it go. The fact that he could freelance -- the President in the interview is exactly one of the main reasons they don't want him in the room with Mueller's men and women, because they don't know what he'll say. He could freelance, and in doing so, he could misrepresent fact, truthful hyperbole, and when you do truthful hyperbole to a federal agent, it's a crime. So you are making the right point.

Tonight on the show we're going to have the lawyer for one of Roger Stone's assistants. Why did he not want to comply with a subpoena? Is he hiding something, or is he trying to expose something? We're fortunate enough to have his attorney on to make the case and test it.

And we're going to do the same thing with this new tax provision that the Trump administration says they don't need Congress for. Odd when obviously taxation is one of Congress' main constitutional roles. And guess who it benefits? Donald Trump and people like him. Is that what we need?

We're going to talk about it with Marc Short, one of the architects of the plan. The closing argument is about why the President is calling out protesters but not the ones headed to Charlottesville this weekend.

COOPER: Yes. And the White House. Chris, thank you. We'll see you in about seven minutes from now.

The latest from California where more than a dozen fires continue to burn. And the man accused of starting one of them, one that is burned more than 15,000 acres, appeared in court today.


[20:57:09] COOPER: A man in California has been charged with arson, accused of setting one of the 15 devastating fires that continue to burn in the state. The suspect was in court today. The fire he's accused of setting is only about 5% contained after burning more than 18,000 acres.

Stephanie Elam has the latest.


STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The raging wildfires in southern California are spreading from these remote cliffs to the edges of hillside communities. The holy fire has forced more than 21,000 people to evacuate. While some are making a last-ditch effort to save their homes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, let's go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anybody else in the house?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, nobody's here. We need fire truck. ELAM (voice-over): Long beach police officer Josh Castro captured these images of the holy fire burning just beyond his yard. Tricky wind patterns are creating the so-called elsinore front, racing uphill one moment, downhill the next. Pushing flames within feet of these homes. Firefighters continue to battle the flames aggressively. In this fire fight, it's hard to believe none of these homes were lost. Firefighters managed to contain the flames.

STEPHEN GAFFINA, LAKE ELSINORE RESIDENT: My heart was pounding, and I was screaming for joy, you know, that they're here just doing that for us here.

ELAM (voice-over): Authorities say this fire was intentional, allegedly started by Forrest Gordon Clark, who is now under arrest and charged with felony arson.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bail has been set at $1 million.


FORREST CLARK, SUSPECT: May I pay for that immediately? I can handle a million right now easily.

ELAM (voice-over): Clark appeared before an Orange County judge today.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Clark is charged in several counts involving arson, aggravated arson.

CLARK: It's a lie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Criminal threats. These are just allegations, sir.

ELAM (voice-over): Volunteer fire Chief Mike Milligan has known Clark for decades and even showed us a message he says Clark texted him just two weeks ago. It's all going to burn just like you planned, it read. Milligan has lived here for 50 years and says Clark's home was one of the only ones in the community that didn't burn to the ground.

(on-camera): I know going up there is hard for you.


ELAM (on-camera): Why is it so hard?

MILLIGAN: I know these people. I know the families. I know what has happened here. And so, you know, pretending your friends lose their home, that has an effect on everybody.

ELAM (voice-over): The holy fire is just one of 15 major fires responders are actively battling across California. So far these fires have charred more than 670,000 acres and damaged or destroyed more than 2,000 structures. And with hot and dry conditions favoring the fires, it could be another month before these fires are contained.


ELAM: And keep in mind Anderson, that 670,000 acres that we're talking about burning here in the state of California, that's more than the land mass of Rhode Island. That's how much has been burned here. And if you look behind me, before we came to talk to you, you could see the flames. But then the winds changed directions very quickly. I'm talking about within like five minutes.

COOPER: It's incredible.

[21:00:02] ELAM: And that was coming at us. We have to wear these goggles because the ashes coming off, that they're so fast. The winds are speeding up so much right now and this is a problem every afternoon here. And there's no intended tightening (ph) on there.


ELAM: They're expecting this red --