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Remembering Charlottesville; Paul Manafort Trial Continues. Aired 3-3:30p ET
Aired August 10, 2018 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BRYAN CASKEY, KANSAS DIRECTOR OF ELECTIONS: We alerted the voting public of that prior to the -- prior to Election Day, and also noted that each type of machine, no matter what type of brand, tells the voter they have not yet looked at all -- all of the candidates.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: OK.
CASKEY: Now, the voter can ignore that message and move on, but every machine alerted people to that.
So we are that -- and we did everything we could to alert people of that prior to Election Day.
BALDWIN: OK, Brian Caskey, it still sounds like you got a lot, a lot on your hands to deal with, with this race. And I know especially these two men want to know who won.
Brian Caskey, thank you so much. We will let you get back to it. Thank you for the update.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
All right, we continue on. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being with me.
We begin with the breaking news and the trial of former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort. After this mystery recess today that lasted for more than five hours, court is now back in session.
On the stand, one of the most intriguing witnesses in this case here, a former banker, an employee of a bank whose CEO was recommended by Manafort for a position inside the Trump administration.
So let's go first to Joe Johns, who is outside that federal courthouse in Alexandria, for a bit more.
Tell me about this individual on the stand.
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, that witness is Dennis Raico. He is from Federal Savings Bank.
He's been given immunity from prosecution. He is testifying about Stephen Calk, who is the CEO of his bank. He testified that Paul Manafort came to the bank asking for a couple loans, the bank was working on them, a meeting was arranged between Raico, Calk, Manafort and others, and the very next day, at least one of those loans was approved.
One of those loans was for $5.7 million. And what is also very interesting thing about this is, this was a time when Mr. Manafort was the campaign chairman or the campaign manager of the Trump campaign. And it was pretty clear that this man wanted -- in other words, the CEO -- wanted to do something with the Trump Organization. And he expressed that.
It wasn't clear whether it was talking about the Trump Organization in New York, the business, at least from the testimony I heard while I was there, or whether he was talking about the Trump campaign.
Nonetheless, it's also clear that this individual, Stephen Calk, did get recommended for a job inside the administration, we know from other sources, but that was down the road, sometime after Manafort had left the campaign.
So I think the bottom line on that part of testimony, quite frankly, is that Mr. Manafort was working for the campaign and also getting a loan, and somebody picked up that he needed to ask Mr. Manafort about working for Trump.
BALDWIN: Got it.
And, Joe, just quickly, any explanation for this multihour recess today?
JOHNS: No explanation at all. It's been very mysterious. They came in with the jury right around 9:00, 9:45 this morning, Eastern Time, no testimony, long bench conferences between the judge and the attorneys.
White noise turned up in the courtroom, so people could not even get the gist of the conversation. After some time, about 11:15 or so Eastern, the judge decided to let the jury go until the afternoon session.
They came back around 1:30 or so Eastern time. And there was just more delay, until 15 or 20 minutes after 2:00, at which time the judge came in. And he told the prosecutor to call the next witness. However, he had forgotten to bring the jury in. And there was laughter in the courtroom.
The judge did bring the jury in, and they proceeded on the witness I just stopped telling you about, Dennis Raico.
BALDWIN: Dennis Raico, OK.
JOHNS: No explanation.
BALDWIN: No, nothing. All right, Joe, thank you very much In Virginia for us.
Let's -- let's talk to two great minds sitting next to me, CNN's legal and national security analyst and former FBI special agent Asha Rangappa and CNN legal analyst Paul Callan.
I just got ask you, what do you think was going on in this courthouse, the white noise machine? When I go into my therapist's office, there is a white noise machine. It's like, you don't want anyone to hear your conversation. So, why?
PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, let me spin the white noise machine first.
CALLAN: Whenever -- in any kind of a trial, there are always bench conferences where there's an objection and the judge says, come on up to the bench, because he's going to rule on it out of the hearing of the jury.
To make sure the jury doesn't hear it, they have a white noise machine to drown out the sound.
CALLAN: So that's why.
But when you hear somebody say there's a lot of white noise going on, that means that they're huddling at the bench an awful lot, because there are a lot of problems being discussed.
Now, what problems by they probably discussing?
BALDWIN: To work through for several hours with a judge who likes to keep the train on the tracks in this courtroom.
CALLAN: Well, I think keeping the train on the tracks is the whole problem with Judge Ellis, because he's constantly cutting off the prosecutors, not letting them call witnesses that, incidentally, they told him previously they had a right to call.
BALDWIN: That he's OKed.
CALLAN: Yes, well, there was an IRS expert who was previously told by the judge that he could sit in the court and watch some of the testimony.
This was in a pretrial application, and apparently he forgot about it. So then he started bawling out the prosecutors in front of the jury, and that causes them to lose their credibility.
Then a second incident occurred when the judge told the jury to disregard testimony about Paul Manafort applying for a loan. He said words to the effect of to the prosecutors, why don't you focus on the facts of the case? It's about the loans he did get, not the loans he applied for.
The prosecutors later came back and said, Judge, this is a conspiracy case, and that application for the loan he didn't get is part of the case. We want a curative instruction.
Now, when a judge gives a curative instruction, he's saying to the jury, disregard what I told you before and consider the evidence that the prosecution offered. But the defense in that case is now going to say, Judge, you're endorsing the veracity of their testimony. You don't have the right to do that.
BALDWIN: But why would they take several hours to do this today?
CALLAN: Because that instruction is such a complicated instruction.
CALLAN: It could cause a mistrial or a reversal on appeal. It's essentially saying, don't listen to me. I'm the judge, even though I told you that evidence was irrelevant.
I don't know. It's a complicated instruction. That's all I can say.
BALDWIN: OK, OK.
I am looking at the lawyer. Do you have anything jump in on?
ASHA RANGAPPA, CNN LEGAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, just with regard to some of these sidebars, one other noteworthy thing, in an earlier sidebar this week, which was apparently very lengthy, the government has also filed a motion to have a transcript of that sidebar.
The court clerk is still typing up what the lawyer and judge are saying -- to have that sealed, because what was revealed in that sidebar is a part of an ongoing sensitive investigation.
BALDWIN: Got it.
RANGAPPA: And that has not yet been made public and was related to Gates' testimony. So interesting to see what that could be about.
BALDWIN: OK, stay with me. I have more for you, including the special counsel's Russia investigation closing in on this guy, Roger Stone, and his inner circle.
Why one of his closest associates just simply failed to show up for a grand jury subpoena today.
But, first, we will talk race in America. The president reigniting his attacks on NFL players, a FOX News host trying to walk back racist comments about immigration. And it's all coming one year after those deadly protests in Charlottesville.
Van Jones joins me next.
BALDWIN: All right, so welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.
This weekend marks one year since a group of racist marched on the streets of Charlottesville, one year since one of them ran over a young woman bravely speaking out against them and killed her, one year since the president of the United States said that there were fine people on both sides.
He said that, by the way, not just once, but twice. He said it again even after all the backlash.
But, one year later, we are discussing race in once again the most heated of ways. The president today renewing his attacks on NFL players after several of them last night took a knee or raised a fist during the league's first preseason games.
In part, the president says that these players are unable to define their outrage and says NFL games, which are played on American soil, by the way, are not the places to be protesting.
On top of this you have, this FOX News host blatantly citing illegal and legal immigration as a reason the America she loves doesn't exist anymore, because of -- quote -- "demographic changes."
She just unapologetically and so blatantly cites race for just not liking the America that she sees. And last night, when Spike Lee, whose new movie profiles this real-life confrontation with the KKK from the '70s, when he was asked about Charlottesville and how the racists weren't even there wearing masks, this is what Spike Lee had to say about racists in America and who is speaking to them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPIKE LEE, DIRECTOR: Since this guy's got in the White House, it's not even a dog whistle. It's a bullhorn.
And then also, Anderson, we have seen a rise of the right. It is not just America. It's worldwide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Kanye West, he sees it differently, speaking out in support of President Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KANYE WEST, MUSICIAN: Everyone around me tried to pick my candidate for me and then told me every time I said I like Trump that I couldn't say it out loud or my career would be over, I would get kicked out the black community, because blacks are -- we are supposed to have a monolithic -- we can only like -- we can only be Democrats.
JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE": You so famously, and so powerfully, said George Bush doesn't care about black people. It makes me wonder what makes you think that Donald Trump does or any people at all?
Why don't we take a break? We will come back.
And Kanye West...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Not often you see him speechless.
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.
BALDWIN: I'm excited to talk to this guy, Van Jones, our CNN political commentator and host of "THE VAN JONES SHOW."
Obviously, an honor to have you on.
And I want to run through all of just the news happenings and all the things tied together because of this discussion on race. But it's one year this weekend that Charlottesville happened. You have spent so much time talking to people on different sides of the aisle, bringing them together.
What do you think of where we are in this country right now?
JONES: I think we're still spiraling away from each other.
I think that part of the tragedy is, good people -- there are good people on both sides of the political divide in America. There are good Republicans. There are good Democrats. There are not good people on the side of the Nazis. There are not good people on the side of swastikas and using ISIS tactics to murder someone with a car in broad daylight in the streets of America.
There are not good people on both sides of that. And so I think we're spiraling away from each other. I'm proud, though, that a year after Charlottesville, a lot of those groups, because of ordinary people saying we're sick of this, they can't cash -- they can't use credit cards online anymore.
Social media is starting to boot them. The antibodies are starting to kick in to say extreme hatred has no place. And yet it then sneaks back through the front door with Laura Ingraham. So we have been pushing it out the back door on social media, and then Laura Ingraham on cable television comes out and says...
BALDWIN: You can't walk that back.
JONES: I mean, you can't walk it back.
BALDWIN: You can't walk that back.
JONES: I just want to be very clear about something.
Usually, it is a dog whistle, to Spike Lee's point -- point of view. Usually, it is, well, it's about border security. It's about following the law. It's about people being in line, not jumping the line. It's not about race.
And they have been telling the liberals, telling people like me, you guys are making it be about race. We're post-racial in America, Van. Shut up about it.
And then Jesus said -- never mind. Never mind. Actually, it -- I don't care if they're not terrorists. I don't care if they're not in gangs. If they're brown, I don't like them. That's race.
BALDWIN: You mentioned Ingraham, so let's talk about it, because it seems like with so many people with views on race, they're not hiding it anymore. They're not hiding it anymore.
So let's go back to FOX Lauren Ingraham, because first I play for you -- you're going to hear what she said that caused such this uproar, and then you will hear her -- clarification?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS: In some parts of the country, it does seem like the America that we know and love doesn't exist anymore. Massive demographic changes have been foisted upon the American people.
And they are changes that none of us ever voted for and most of us don't like. From Virginia to California, we see stark examples of how radically in some ways the country has changed.
Now, much of this is related to both illegal, and in some cases legal immigration, that, of course, progressives love.
A message to those who are distorting my views, including all-white nationalists and especially one racist freak whose name I will not even mention. You do not have my support. You don't represent my views. And you are antithetical to the beliefs I hold dear.
The purpose of last night's "Angle" was to point out that the rule of law, meaning secure borders, is something that used to bind our country together. And despite what some may be contending, I made explicitly clear that my commentary had nothing to do with race or ethnicity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Sorry, Laura, you can't walk that back.
And the language she used originally, the same kind of language we hear from avowed white supremacists.
I want to play one more thing. And then, Van, we're talking again.
Watch this conversation that our correspondence Sara Sidner with a neo-Nazi.
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the calm of this rural Northern Pennsylvania town, a sign that hate lives here
(on camera): Are you a neo-Nazi?
DANIEL BURNSIDE, ULYSSES RESIDENT: Do I embrace it? I don't try to push it away.
SIDNER: Well, you're wearing a swastika on your shirt.
SIDNER: And you have got swastika flags.
Why the flags? Why the shirt? Why these hateful symbols in this town?
BURNSIDE: I don't think they're hateful. I think it's an ideology that has been completely misinterpreted since the Third Reich.
SIDNER: OK, now I have got to stop you.
BURNSIDE: Like I'm a Holocaust denier?
SIDNER: Misinterpreted? Misinterpreted? Six million Jews were killed.
BURNSIDE: No, no, you will never sell me on that.
SIDNER: There's -- I'm not trying to sell you.
SIDNER: It is reality. It's history. It cannot be denied.
(voice-over): Daniel Burnside is a lightning rod of discord in Ulysses, Pennsylvania, population 690.
With the help of the Internet, his message has spread far and wide, giving his town attention it does not want.
BURNSIDE: Rural America spoke up when they elected Trump, rural America.
SIDNER: And by rural America, he means white America.
BURNSIDE: We're staring down the barrel of a gun here, white America.
There are still 193 million white Americans. Yes, the vast majority of them are in their 60s and 70s, will be in the ground in the next 20 years. And, therefore, we have the possibility of becoming a minority in our own country, a possibility of becoming a minority in our own country.
SIDNER (on camera): It sounds to me like you're afraid of being me.
And being me...
BURNSIDE: This is my country.
SIDNER: ... is great.
This is also my country.
BURNSIDE: You guys didn't win the culture war.
SIDNER (voice-over): He invited us on his property to talk.
But when he doesn't like our conversation, he explodes.
BURNSIDE: Get the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out of here! (EXPLETIVE DELETED) now!
SIDNER: We do.
Just down the street, we're met by a dozen residents who say Burnside does not speak for this town.
(on camera): There are families in this county that blame politics for people like him sort of being able to come out and be very loud.
Is that fair?
IVAN LEHMAN, ULYSSES RESIDENT: Our president we have got right now hasn't -- hasn't helped situation a whole lot. He's got a lot of the same beliefs. At least he won't speak against them, OK?
This guy feeds off that stuff.
SIDNER (voice-over): Among the crowd, many with grandfathers or fathers who fought the Nazis in World War II.
CARM BARKER, ULYSSES RESIDENT: Good people. And he's stepping on us. He's stepping on all us. We all one -- we're one tribe. And who does he think he his?
SIDNER: Teacher Debbie Hamilton says she just returned from touring concentration camps in Poland.
DEBBIE HAMILTON, ULYSSES RESIDENT: One of the things that we spent a lot of time talking about was passive resistance vs. active resistance.
SIDNER: So far, they have chosen passive resistance with Burnside
On the other side of Potter County, Joe and Seshena Leschner are convinced passive resistance is the wrong choice.
JOE LESCHNER, FORMER POTTER COUNTY RESIDENT: I'm not saying you should go to their houses with pitchforks and guns. I'm saying, hold a peaceful protest against them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Traditionalist American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan Neighborhood Watch.
SIDNER: After seeing KKK flyers appearing in their neighborhood and Burnside's decorations in their county, Joe did protest, only to receive a threat by one of the supremacists he stood against.
J. LESCHNER: They would look at me and give me the finger and even make little gestures like they were going to shoot me.
SIDNER: Joe says the racial hatred intensified when his Jamaican bride arrived.
SESHENA LESCHNER, FORMER POTTER COUNTY RESIDENT: In Wal-Mart, I got a lot of that (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
SIDNER: In their mind, if more people stood up against hate, the racists would be forced to leave and let love stand.
Sara Sidner, CNN, Ulysses, Pennsylvania.
BALDWIN: Is it worse now?
JONES: Listen, I think that stuff that's been under the surface is now coming up to the surface.
JONES: And that can be good or bad.
If you have leadership in the White House when it comes up, it comes up, you try to heal it, that could be a good thing, it could be cathartic thing.
The problem is, you got leadership in the White House that, when it comes up, it's like they make it worse and spread the poison and try to use it politically. So we're in a tough situation.
I want to say, though, to my conservative friends, you got to pick a lane here. You have been telling me we're post-racial, quit playing the race card, you keep talking about race, that's the problem, we don't care about that, we just want secure borders, we don't like terrorists, that's all it is.
Now you have got the number one news organization for conservatives saying, hey, you know what, actually, we're not talking about terrorism, we're not talking about -- we're saying the fact you got too many brown people...
BALDWIN: Talking about brown people. Talking about brown people.
JONES: ... is bad. I don't care if they're school teachers. I don't care if they're nuclear physicists. Too many brown people is bad.
BALDWIN: Which is the same thing that that guy was saying to Sara Sidner.
JONES: So, a Nazi standing outside of this trailer and Laura Ingraham have the same message now.
Now, conservatives should be rising up. Conservatives should say, you're screwing up our messaging. We told them that we were post- racial.
Now you have got people who are explicitly saying that, no matter who you are, doesn't matter if you're a doctor, lawyer, if you are brown, and there's too many of you, I have a problem with that. There's something -- that is called racism. That is the definition of racism.
JONES: And it's coming from FOX News hosts in broad daylight in America.
And you wonder what -- why we got people getting killed and run over and run out of towns in the rest of the country. We're better than this. We should be better than this.
BALDWIN: I started this conversation by saying that you have spent a lot of time talking to folks on both sides, right, trying to find that common ground.
That is what you're so beautiful at doing. And so your show this weekend, it ties into some of these themes. You go to Stone Mountain.
BALDWIN: You go to Stone Mountain in Atlanta for your Van in a Van, right?
And so Stone Mountain is home to one of the largest Confederate monuments and it's the birthplace of modern-day KKK. So tell me about that.
Well, it was a powerful experience. I do this thing. It's called Van in a Van. So, "THE VAN JONES SHOW," please watch it tomorrow. And we just take Republicans and Democrats, lock the doors, child-proof locks, and I drive around and make them talk.
And this time, I didn't tell them where we were going. And I drove to Stone Mountain. And the white woman starts crying, because she's happy. Her father used to take her there as a kid for picnics. Her father just passed away.
The black woman starts crying and she's...
BALDWIN: We have a clip.
JONES: Oh, I'm sorry.
BALDWIN: Roll it.
JONES: Never mind.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stone Mountain Park. I'm (INAUDIBLE) nervous by coming here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The etching in stone is a monument to domestic terrorism.
JONES: Why do you say that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's the celebration of Confederacy. It's a reminder to black people that we should have never been freed.
I'm actually shaking right now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That makes me so sad.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because I don't -- I don't identify with it that way.
But, coming here, I think of all the times with my father, my family. So this seems like a happy place. And to hear that it's hurtful...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can appreciate that.
If I didn't have my seat belt on, I would hug you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It makes me sad that is that that's the impact it has on you. But this is a place where I really have really happy memories. I could never sit in your shoes.
But I don't view the carving that way.
JONES: How do you view it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, KKK rallies were here for a reason. It feels like a threat. It feels like a consistent and looming, hard- granite, solid threat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: That's a powerful exchange.
JONES: You got two middle-class, professional women living there in Atlanta, where you're from.
They literally look at the same piece of granite and one cries tears of joy for her father, and one literally cries, and later on cries even more, terrified.
We have to talk about that. It doesn't mean one is right or one is wrong. But if we don't even know each other enough to understand why you could have completely different reactions, well, then we're just going to call each other names, and then demagogues can pull us further apart.
So I'm trying to get people to at least have the conversation, because it's -- when we talk about each other, but we don't talk to each other, that's when the Nazis can win.
BALDWIN: Do not miss this man's show. It is tomorrow night 7:00 Eastern. We will watch that exchange. You also have Leslie Jones from "Saturday Night Live."
JONES: Keeping up with the Joneses.
BALDWIN: Oh, I love it. Van, thank you so much. So happy for you.
JONES: Very good. Thank you.
BALDWIN: Coming up next here: Roger Stone responding after three of his closest associates are called to testify in front of a grand jury. We will dig into why the special counsel seems more and more interested in Trump's former political adviser.
We will be right back.