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Giuliani Tells CNN That President Trump Never Discussed Former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn Former FBI Director James Comey; Omarosa Says That She Was Asked to Sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement After Her Time in The White House. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired August 13, 2018 - 06:00   ET



ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, ANCHOR, CNN: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY. It's Monday, August 13. 6 o'clock here in New York. Alisyn is off. Erica Hill joins me. I survived "The Meg" this weekend. How'd you do?

ERICA HILL, ANCHOR, CNN: I'm really impressed, actually, because I'm too scared to see it.

BERMAN: I've lost my voice from screaming a little bit because that's how I roll --

HILL: John Berman one, "The Meg" zero.

BERMAN: Exactly. All right, so this morning, Rudy Giuliani versus Rudy Giuliani. The president's lawyer is taking himself on and landing some serious blows. Giuliani now tells CNN that President Trump never discussed former national security advisor Michael Flynn with then FBI director James Comey. Of course James Comey says that's not true but you know who else says that's not true? Rudy Giuliani.

At least the July version of Rudy Giuliani who said clearly that the president had asked Comey to give Flynn, quote, a break during an Oval Office meeting. The July Giuliani and the August Giuliani clearly need to get together and work things out. On another note, or not, remember when President Trump said he would only surround himself with the best people?

Former White House aide and "Apprentice" star Omarosa Manigault Newman is promoting her new tell-all memoir with some explosive claims released (ph) audio that says she had secretly recorded the moment that Chief of Staff John Kelly fired her inside the Situation Room. She also says she refused to accept hush money to stay silent after leaving the White House.

HILL: White nationalists outnumbered by thousands of anti-hate protesters in the nation's capitol. Now, ahead of the event, the president tweeting he condemns, quote, all types of racism and acts of violence, a tweet that quickly renewed the controversy ignited by the president's good people on both sides comment last year after the deadly Charlottesville riot, seeming to equate, of course, white nationalists with counter protesters.

And that stolen plane in Seattle raising serious questions about security after the man who took it and went on a flight before dying in a crash. We've got the latest on that investigation just ahead. We begin our coverage this morning with CNN's Boris Sanchez who is live in New Jersey near the president's Bedminster residence. Boris, good morning.

BORIS SANCHEZ, U.S. CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Hi. Good morning, Erica. The president's attorney, Rudy Giuliani, is apologizing for confusion that he says he created by arguing in the alternative, using a legal device in legal argumentation to try to prove appoint, though he didn't quite make that clear in his previous comments. Meantime, the White House is responding to this secret recording made by a former Trump aide of Chief of Staff John Kelly in the Situation Room.

Omarosa potentially opening herself up for serious legal charges.


SANCHEZ: Rudy Giuliani is again changing his story, now saying President Trump will deny ever telling FBI Director James Comey to ease up on Former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn.

RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY, DONALD TRUMP: The president says he never told Comey that he should go easy on Flynn. If he goes in and testifies to that under oath instead of this just being a dispute, they can say it's perjury if they elect to believe Comey instead of Trump --

SANCHEZ: But just a month ago, Giuliani said the exact opposite.

GIULIANI: He didn't direct him to do that. What he said to him was can you -- can you --

STEPHANOPOULOS: Comey says he took it as direction.

GIULIANI: Well, that's OK.

SANCHEZ: Comey has always insisted Trump asked him to take it easy on Flynn and says he has the contemporaneous notes to prove it. Flynn has since pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI and is cooperating with the special counsel's investigation. Giuliani later backtracking, claiming he was repeating Comey's words, not the president's.

GIULIANI: The conversation never took place. But if it did take place -- and here's a conversation that's alleged -- it is not illegal to have said that.

SANCHEZ: All of this comes as former White House Aide Omarosa Manigault Newman releases a recording that she secretly made inside the White House Situation Room back in December when Chief of Staff John Kelly fired her. JOHN KELLY, CHIEF OF STAFF, TRUMP ADMINISTRATION: If we make this a

friendly departure, we can all be -- you know, you can look at -- look at your time here in -- in the White House as a time of service to the nation and then you can go on without any type of difficulty in the future relative to your reputation.

SANCHEZ: Omarosa, who is promoting her controversial tell-all book about her year in the White House says the recording was the only way to defend herself.

OMAROSA MANIGAULT NEWMAN, FORMER POLITICAL AIDE, DONALD TRUMP: The Chief of Staff of the United States, under the direction of the President of the United States, threatening me on damage to my reputation and things getting ugly for me. That's downright criminal.

SANCHEZ: The White House is slamming the recording as a national security breech. The president not mincing words about his former aide.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you feel betrayed by Omarosa, sir?


SANCHEZ: Omarosa was the last African American to work in a high level position in the White House. When pressed to name another, White House Counselor Kellyanne Conway could not.

JONATHAN KARL, JOURNALIST, ABC NEWS: What does that say to have not a single senior advisor in the West Wing who is African American?

KELLYANNE CONWAY, COUNSELOR TO THE PRESIDENT, DONALD TRUMP: I didn't say that there wasn't, but hold on --

KARL: Who is?

CONWAY: There are -- there are plenty of people -- if you're -- if you're -- if you're going by that and not by the actions of the president, which you probably should, then -- then you should look at the fact that we have a number of different minorities --


[06:10:00]SANCHEZ: Now there are other aspects to this recording that are troubling beyond the fact that it took place in what is supposed to be a secure setting, namely why John Kelly felt it was necessary to take Omarosa into the Situation Room to dismiss her and what he was referring to in that recording about some violations of integrity that Omarosa allegedly performed. I've asked the White House about this, John and Erica. They've yet to respond.

BERMAN: All right. Boris Sanchez for us in New Jersey. Appreciate it, Boris. Let's bring in CNN Senior Political Analyst John Avlon, CNN Political Analyst Jackie Kucinich and CNN Legal Analyst Shan Wu. Shan, I want to start with you. Rudy Giuliani is a lawyer for the President of the United States. He is Donald Trump's lawyer. What does it tell you when a lawyer publicly and directly contradicts himself?

SHAN WU, LEGAL ANALYST, CNN: Well, it may seem as though rather than making an argument in the alternative, which he seems to think is a very complicated legal point, which it's not, he's a little bit living in an alternative reality. But I think if you look beyond that, there is some strategy here. Which is Giuliani's been talking for a long time about he doesn't want his client to walk into a perjury trap. And a lot of lawyers like myself have been shaking our heads like what's he mean by that, does he even understand what a perjury trap is.

Well, here's his definition, which he's set out on that radio show that he did with Sekulow. He said that a perjury trap exists if some other witness has a contradictory statement for your client. And the problem for him is up until now, Comey didn't. They were in agreement. So he had to create that disagreement, which he has done now by saying it never happened. He's willing to play the part of a buffoon so he can create the situation and now they fit his model of a perjury trap.

So that, I think, is maybe what he's really doing.

HILL: Well, and also -- and this -- and Jackie, I'll throw this to you. This would appear to be, too, just more of what we've seen from the beginning from Rudy Giuliani, which this is not necessarily a legal strategy. This is a P.R. strategy, this is a messaging strategy. And so oh, by the way, I'm saying that Mueller is going to choose to believe Comey so therefore, it's a, quote, trap.

JACKIE KUCINICH, POLITICAL ANALYST, CNN: Right. I mean, sometimes the most simple explanation is the easiest one and that's that Rudy Giuliani isn't telling the truth here. But to your point, this is more -- from the beginning, has been more of a P.R. strategy than a legal strategy. It's taking a page out of the old Clinton playbook, where they would try to tear down Ken Starr and -- and make it look like they were being unfair to the president in order to get public opinion against the probe.

So no matter what comes out, they'll be -- the president's base and perhaps some Republicans will be on the president's side. Not to mention -- we should mention that Bob Mueller hasn't spoken. The only thing we have to go on is this sort of narrative concocted by the Trump legal-slash-hype team. So, you know, what they say Mueller says to them, we don't even know if that is exactly what is happening.

BERMAN: Yes. It's Giuliani versus Giuliani and Giuliani is winning and losing all at the same time.


BERMAN: And you know, John Avlon, I was interested to hear what Shan just said right there, that Giuliani willing to play the buffoon to create a legal situation. I hadn't quite thought of that before. Now he can put the president's word up against James Comey. The conversation happened, period, or it didn't happen, period. JOHN AVLON, POLITICAL ANALYST, CNN: Yes. The problem and what makes

this so particularly head-smacking is that this isn't a line of argument. This is trying to say that a conversation that has been at the crux of this case and the national conversation for a year and a half all of a sudden didn't happen. Presumably if it hadn't happened, that would have come up before.

Rudy's own contradictions aside, that you've got Comey having contemporaneous notes, which he then shared with other people at the FBI at the time, the president not denying this happening, Rudy not denying this happening. So whatever, you know, strategy you want to put around this, I really think it's -- it's head-smacking because it flies in the face of what we've all been discussing for 18 months.

HILL: When does this, Shan (ph) -- look, we know that this strategy is -- is -- is working in large part with the president's base. Both the president's messaging and Rudy Giuliani's messaging. It seems to be getting out there, a lot of people behind it. But Shan, when does this start to backfire? And specifically from a legal perspective on Rudy Giuliani, on President Trump?

WU: Yes. It backfires as soon as President Trump actually is interviewed. And I strongly suspect they really don't want that to happen and this is all spin so they can justify that not happening.

BERMAN: Yes. And of course Giuliani now says that the interview can't happen after September 1. Basically, he seems like he's ruling out the possibility this will happen anytime before November, which more or less means it won't happen at all. I want to shift, if I can, to Omarosa. Omarosa Manigault Newman.


She not only (ph) is that the legal question here before we get onto the politics on this, she says that she was asked to sign a non- disclosure agreement after her time in the White House.

She considered it to be sort of a pay off for her silence to come onto the campaign, $15 a month to stay silent, she says, and really not do anything. Any legalities around that?

WU: I think it was $15,000 a month. I don't think there's anything illegal about her being asked to sign a non-disclosure agreement and from the little bit of recording that we heard, it doesn't really sound like there's any sort of criminal pressure being put on her.

I mean her actions in recording in that situation obviously are a while different question.

HILL: Well and - and let's pick up on that question. Anything that you see there legally that could hurt her having made that record? According to her they are in the Situation Room.

WU: Yes, there are some federal statutes involving basically national security that she could have violated. It's hard to tell at the moment, but what's not at all hard to tell is there's no question they need to open an investigation on her because she's admitting recording in a place you're obviously not supposed to record.

They've got to investigate that, not to mention they really need to reexamine their security protocols.

BERMAN: Jackie, I mean everyone I've heard from - from either party who's ever been anywhere near the White House expressed shock that this conversation was recorded, if it really did take place in the Situation Room.

It begs a lot of questions about the protocol there and also just what kind of person would do that and who would hire said kind of person.

KUCINICH: Well, I mean, the answer is President Trump, in terms of who would hire that kind of person, and especially of (ph) the early hires, it seems that the people that - the - the arbiter of the best people was the president.

And it was the people that were closest to him, perhaps said the right things to him. He obviously was comfortable with Omarosa. He had her on what, like nine shows that were listed off over the last two decades.

So that - that's step one. In terms of - I'm curious why she was taken in the Situation Room to begin with. Why couldn't you do this somewhere else, which is the question that he asked herself?

Why did it need to be in that sort of uber secure location in order to - to terminate her? So there's still that we - a lot we don't know. But you're absolutely right, everyone I've spoken to, there is a box apparently outside of the Situation Room where you're supposed to put your cell phone when you walk in.

So could she be facing some sort of legal trouble because of that? We'll have to wait and see but it certainly seems like she broke some pretty sacred security rules by recording that interview.

HILL: And it does bring out the question, John Avlon, as - as we know the president said from the beginning, only the best people.

AVLON: Yes, what - I mean that hasn't born out for you yet? I mean we were promised nothing but quality (inaudible) and we've seen that, I think it's probably time for judgment.

Look, you know, if the number one criteria is for, you know, West Wing post, whether you've appeared on reality shows with them, we're not starting off at a really strong criteria for executive capacity (ph).

I will say that aside from the absurdity and possible illegality of - of taping the chief of staff in the Situation Room, if the - one of the largest scandals you have is the moral outrage and real time transcript of your own firing, that seems to not really, you know - that's - that's low on the hierarchy of importance to the republic, even though it may be awfully important to Omarosa.

These are clearly not the best people, any of them, and we've seen that (inaudible) honorable people serving in the white wing in the west - (inaudible) west - the White House in the West Wing.

May have been a Freudian slip with Kellyanne's comments yesterday.

HILL: We'll tackle that one -


AVLON: Oh yes, we will.

[06:15:00]BERMAN: All right, guys, stick around. Thank you one and all, sort of a strange segue here. White nationalists outnumbered by anti-hate protestors at their own rally. This is one year after the Charlottesville violence.

I'll tell you what happened overnight, that's next.


So anti-hate groups outnumbered the nearly two dozen white nationalists who convened near the White House at a Unite the Right rally on Sunday. This marks one year since the clashed turned deadly in Charlottesville, Virginia.

CNN's Sarah Sidner live in Washington with the very latest. Sarah.

SARAH SIDNER, CORRESPONDENT, CNN: John, yes. You know, it was interesting because they are the ones that had the permit for this rally and then of course the counter protestors came and they also said look, we're going to come out as well.

And it turned out that the Unite the Right folks were far, far outnumbered. There were maybe two dozen members from the Unite the Right marchers and then on the other side there were hundreds and hundreds of people saying they are standing up against fascism, against hatred, against some of the anti-Semitic comments that have been made.

We did talk to Jason Kessler, he is the person with the Unite the Right rally that asked for the permit in Washington and the same person who got the permit insurance bill during that deadly attack.

We asked him about why there were so many members of the Unite the Right rally that were speaking anti-Semitic comments and who were also speaking very racist comments.


SIDNER: Do you condemn what happened during the rally where people were saying (inaudible) for anti-Semitic remarks, there were racist remarks. Is that what you believe in?

JASON KESSLER, WHITE SUPREMACIST: No, I condemn neonazis in the lead up to this rally. I've been somebody -

SIDNER: Then why where so many of them marching under your (inaudible) Unite the Right rally? KESSLER: That's a very - that's a very complicated issue, but I would say those people were in the minority. But because they're - what they said was so offensive and so frightening to a lot of people, it became the focal point -


He's wrong, they were not in the minority. That was the voice that came out of that Unite the Right rally. And I do want to mention something, it seems that they're trying to rebrand the alt right to be kinder and gentler, but here's a comment that Jason Kessler made in 2017.

He said our entire country would have been better off if the south had won the Civil War. Remember, the south also very much stood for slavery.

BERMAN: All right, Sarah.

HILL: Sarah, thank you.

BERMAN: Sarah Sidner for us in Washington, appreciate it.

HILL: John Avlon is back, we're also joined by CNN Commentator Bakari Sellers, CNN Political Commentator Paris Dennard. The two of you sitting her on set with us, obviously taking a lot from those comments.

It's remarkable that, you know, as he said to Sarah, it was so offensive and frightening that it became the focal point. Yes, that's one of the reasons, but it's a reason that we talk about a lot because it is frightening, it is wrong and it's still here and that's a problem.


BAKARI SELLERS, CNN COMMENTATOR: It's a problem, but that's not the most frightening part. I think the people yelling anti-Semitic chants, I think people yelling racist chants, sometimes we get caught up in that.

I think the major problem we have, not just with the rally that was yesterday, but the one that was year ago and what permeates our systems in this country, is that these individuals don't have to wear hoods anymore.

They don't have to cover their faces anymore and they are your bankers, they are you physician assistants, they are in every system that we have in the United States of America and one thing that stuck out to me is he said, this was complicated.

But you know who he sounded like, he sounded like the President of the United States making this a complicated issue. There are no two sides.

And I said this yesterday and I'll say it again, if you are marching under a Nazi flag, you can go to hell.

BERMAN: Paris, let me read you what the president said, in advance of this weekend, to mark the one year anniversary since Charlottesville. He said, the riots in Charlottesville a year ago resulted in senseless death and division. We must come together as a nation. I condemn all types of racism and acts of violence. Peace to all Americans.

Now, was this the best statement he could have made, because I have heard people suggest he should have directly condemned the all-white or the KKK or the Neo-Nazi sympathizers who he know were going be there this weekend, or was this the both sides type of comment he made a year ago? How do you assess it.

PARIS DENNARD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I frankly don't think that any statement that he put out or tweeted or said would be good enough for people in the media.

We've seen this president time and time again, even before the Charlottesville happen, specifically condemn KKK, Neo-Nazi's and racists and all the like, which are all horrible factions of this country or organizations in this country.

And so I think his statement or the tweet that he put out, I think it was strong, I think it was clear and I think it was definite the president condemns it, he is not supportive of it, not just the racism, but in addition to the racism, the violence.

And I think it was appropriate to do so. I re-tweeted it. I think it was a good statement and I think it was a very clear statement that backs up everything that he's said on multiple occasions, denouncing clearly his -- this disgusting portion that we have in our country and that we've had in our country for decades.

AVLON: Yes, so Paris, couple things about that. I happen to agree with you that the president's tweet yesterday was not the same as his both sides comments in the wake of Charlottesville.

But the idea that the President of the United States has consistently condemned the KKK and white nationalist, and that it's the media fault somehow, that just doesn't even begin to pass the fact check.

Take a listen -- just remember his refusal, his discomfort in condemning David Duke, what's subtle about that? That's not the media, that's a dog whistle. And then you've got a problem in -- there's a portion of the president's base seems to feel emboldened by articulating a white nationalist sympathies and the kind of stuff we saw in Charlottesville.

So, don't blame this on the media. Don't pretend this is all a big misunderstanding. The president has encouraged this stuff too often and one tweet doesn't get him off the hook on that, unfortunately.

DENNARD: Well John, if, just to clarify something --

AVLON: Please, clarify away. DENNARD: I didn't say this was the media's fault. I said the media would not be pleased or satisfied with any statement or any tweet or anything that he says, because you -- they never -- they never are. And if you look back on the statements that he's made previously, I think that it is a good thing that he's made those statements and I think he has been clear that -- in those statements that he's -- yes, it's been, so when he says I condemn in the strongest possible means, racism, violence and bigotry, I mean --

SELLERS: The president has a problem, Paris, and I think if we look beyond his words. First of all, I don't give the same credence that John Avlon does, that is his statement all of sudden was different from both sides.

But, if we look at the fact that he went out and chastised NFL players, if we go down the list of him calling out our colleague, Don Lemon, to calling out Lebron James, I mean if we look at his actions then we understand this the president does something, like personally I think the president is racist, but even more importantly than that, he uses racism as political currency. And so, that's why we -- that's why he soft pedals when it comes to these issues of race, because he understands --

DENNARD: The president doesn't soft pedal.

SELLERS: ...he -- oh my god, he soft pedals.

DENNARD: No he doesn't.

SELLERS: He understands something very simple, that these are voters. Not everybody who voted for Donald Trump is racist, but --

DENNARD: Thanks for clarifying that, because the way you make it seem is that ...

SELLERS: No, no, no. I, everybody who voted for --

DENNARD: -- so, thank you for clarifying.

SELLERS: -- Donald Trump is not racist. But you have to be okay with racism in a certain shape, form or fashion. So that's, I mean, there's no way around this. You have somebody who pedals racism in the open. Now we're having a new discussion and racism did not start with Donald Trump. It was here before him, it will be here after him, but he definitely is somebody who's lighting a fire to it.

DENNARD: You're 100 percent wrong. Both of you have no idea what you're talking about and I think that what you do is continue this narrative --

AVLON: Oh, Paris, you're priceless. No --

DENNARD: What'd you say?

AVLON: You're priceless. DENNARD: I am priceless, thank you. And what is -- what is -- what

is priceless is the fact that the media continues to run this narrative against this president and in spite of the fact that we can see the positive things in his actions that he's doing, his administration's doing to address issues that are going to positively impact the black community and all minority communities.

And so, you can keep pedaling this narrative all you want, but the American people see through it. The president is not a racist and he's been very clear in denouncing racism, the KKK, and all of the hatred that we've seen, that you all continue to promote on this network and others, like we saw yesterday.

BERMAN: Let me just read, can I read, because Bakari brought it up, which was what the president wrote about NFL players. He did this on Friday. He says, the NFL players are at it again, taking a knee, when they should be standing proudly for the National Anthem.

Numerous players from different teams wanted to show their outrage at something that most of them are unable to define. And he goes on and says some other things there and what I found interesting, you know, you can have the argument about patriotism, whether people should stand or not always for the national anthem, but why does he think that these athletes --

[06:25:00] SELLERS: Oh, I know the answer.

BERMAN: -- are unable to define.

SELLERS: I know the answer to this. This is like -- this is a great question. Let me chime in. Because it's a racist truth. Okay. One of the things that people have done for -- shake your head all you want Paris, but if you -- if we go back in history, let's look at this.

He attacks Don Lemon's intellect, he attacks Lebron James intellect, he attacks Maxine Water's intellect, he attacks NFL players intellect and so instead of just having these blatant, blatant racist verbs and verbiage that he uses, he does the same thing that people have been doing for years, which is to somehow to make these people look inferior.

Malcolm Jenkins has made it clear, Colin Kaepernick, Eric Reid, they have all made it extremely clear, no one is protesting the flag, no one is protesting our military.

They're protesting the trials and tribulations, the oppression, the degradation and injustices that African-American's face and I think it's not the players who have a problem articulating that, I think it's the fact that they don't have anybody black in the White House to tell the president what is actually going on out here.

Maybe you should join the White House, Paris. I would feel more comfortable with you being there, than no one there at all, I think.

DENNARD: Well Bakari, just to set the record straight for you, there are African-American's or black-Americans that are in the White House.

SELLERS: No, Ja'Ron Smith is in the EOP. I said, in the West Wing, in the White House. You and I both know Ja'Ron, he's awesome --

DENNARD: So, let me -- let me --

SELLERS: That's not about him.

DENNARD: Bakari, this isn't your party and this is not the president that you support. So, I know exactly who is in the White House, I'm there on a regular basis.

SELLERS: Who is there then?

DENNARD: And to say that the EOP is not --

SELLERS: Who is there? Who's in the West Wing?

DENNARD: -- if you want to be technical, Omarosa was never in the White House.

SELLERS: Who was -- name some -- name a black -- name a black person in the White House right now.

DENNARD: Well, I will name several of them that are in the White House.

SELLERS: Name somebody who is in the West Wing.

DENNARD: (Inaudible). And again, let me just clarify something. Omarosa, as the assistant to the president, director of communications and public liaison, she never had an office in the west wing. Omarosa's office was in the EEOB, the Eisenhower Executive Office Building. That is where she -- her office was and that's where it always has been. She never had an office in the West Wing.

That said, there are many people in the White House --

BERMAN: There've never been --

AVLON: Yes, so you're saying that actually there's never been an African-American member of the White House senior staff in the West Wing under the Trump Administration?

BERMAN: I don't think you're helping your argument.

DENNARD: What I'm saying is, if you want to be technical, Omarosa, as a senior advisor -- as a person who was a commissioned officer, her office was never in the West Wing. That does not mean that the African-Americans that were there and that are there now do not go to the West Wing and do not give advice.

And let me tell you, it is Ja'Ron K. Smith who is a commissioned officer, it is -- who is in DPC now and now is Leg. Affairs. It is Mary Elizabeth Taylor who is a commissioned officer in Leg. Affairs, who's office is actually in the East Wing, which is closer than -- to the West Wing that you can get and she's also been appointed by the president to be the next Assistant Secretary of State for Legislative Affairs.

You have Darrian Farris (ph) who was in the White House, you have Jonathan Holifield who was a White House Executive Director for HBCU, which came under this president's move to make it and put into -- we've got to go and we could keep going.

If Jonathan Holifield's here, you've had two African-American White House fellows that were there, one White House fellow who served right here, who yes, and it's a very prestigious commission that they have this program there.

And in addition to that, there are a lot more that aren't there. There's at least seven that are there now, there are -- and it's across the administration, you have African-Americans in senior positions across the administration. Do you want to me to list them? Do you want me to go down the line? No, you don't.

You want to wrap up the time, because this not important to you because you want to pedal the lies of Bakari Sellers and others, saying that there are not blacks in this administration. There are blacks in this administration serving in senior capacities and there's other across the --

BERMAN: Paris, hang on -- hang on -- hang on one second here. Hang on one second. No one is pedaling lies. We gave --

DENNARD: They are lies. When you say --

BERMAN: -- longer, hang on Paris, hang on. And when --

[06:30:00] DENNARD: Excuse me, when you say that there are not anybody --