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Iran's Foreign Minister Says U.S. is Addicted to Sanctions; Pennsylvania A.G. Says Cardinal Wuerl "Isn't Telling the Truth"; Twitter CEO: We realize People Fear Big Tech. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired August 19, 2018 - 18:00   ET


[18:00:04] ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. I'm so glad you're with us.

In the worlds of John Lennon, give me some truth. In the words of the president's attorney Rudy Giuliani, the truth isn't the truth.


CHUCK TODD, HOST, "MEET THE PRESS": Truth is truth. I don't mean to go like --

RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP: You know, it isn't -- truth isn't truth. The president of the United States says I didn't --

TODD: Truth isn't truth? Mr. Mayor, do you realize what -- I --

GIULIANI: No. No, no.


TODD: This is going to become a bad meme.

GIULIANI: Don't do this to me.


CABRERA: The president's attorney in damage control mode today making that head spinning claims amid a bombshell report in "The New York Times." The paper detailing how White House counsel John McGahn, the man equivalent to John Dean and Nixon's White House has cooperated extensively, they write, with Special Counsel Robert Mueller, including providing details about Trump's rage at the Russia investigation and his attempts to fire Mueller.

CNN's Ryan Nobles is near the president's golf club in New Jersey where he spent the weekend.

Ryan, how is the White House handling this "New York Times" report?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, they spent the last 24 hours trying to make the case that they were fine with Don McGahn sitting in front of the special counsel and that it was actually the president's lawyer's idea for him to sit down because they wanted a full transparent accounting of the president's conduct in the last year and a half. But there's a new "New York Times" report out just in the last hour that is really contradicting that claim.

It says that the president's lawyers were really not aware just how extensive these conversations where that Don McGahn had with the special counsel, and that they don't definitively know exactly what Don McGahn told Robert Mueller's team. That despite what Rudy Giuliani said this morning. Take a listen.


GIULIANI: We have a good sense, obviously, of what Mr. McGahn testified to. I can figure it out from --

TODD: How do you say that good sense? Have you debriefed him?

GIULIANI: No, no. But Mr. Dowd has a good sense of it. He talked to them at the time.

TODD: So you don't know what Mr. McGahn -- you don't know 100 percent of what he testified to Mr. Mueller?

GIULIANI: I think that through John Dowd, we have a pretty good sense of it. And John Dowd yesterday said -- I'll use his words rather than mine -- that McGahn was a strong witness for the president. So I don't need to know much more about that.


NOBLES: So you can see how the mayor -- former mayor of New York City, Rudy Giuliani, wavered a bit in his response to Chuck Todd that they really have not fully debriefed Don McGahn on the full breadth of everything that he talked to Robert Mueller about. In fact in this "New York Times" report it said that the lawyers representing Don McGahn in a personal capacity, William Burke, just provided them with a very short outline with some general notes about the topics discussed but did not get into the full breadth of those conversations.

Now the president continues to insist that there is nothing to see here. That this is not a bad thing for him and his legal prospects. He tweeted this, "The failing 'New York Times' wrote a fake piece today implying that because White House counsel Don McGahn was giving hours of testimony to the special counsel he must be a John Dean type rat. But I allowed him and all others to testify because I didn't -- even though I didn't have to because I have nothing to hide."

And speaking of John Dean, of course he's a central figure in the whole Watergate scandal. He's actually on Twitter, I know you spoke to him last hour, Ana, he also responded on Twitter saying, "Nixon knew why I was meeting with prosecutors because I told them. However, he didn't think I would tell them the truth." And this is how this applies to this current situation, Ana, now that

we know that the White House does not have a full handle on exactly what Don McGahn said. His attorneys have said repeatedly that he has told the truth at every instance. And there are few people that know the inner workings of this White House over the past year and a half than Don McGahn. So exactly what he said could play an important role as to how the Robert Mueller investigation continues forward -- Ana.

CABRERA: No doubt about it. Ryan Nobles, thank you for that report.

And as Ryan mentioned, I talked to John Dean last hour about the president's tweet going after him, calling him a rat. And his response, here is what he told me about President Trump.


JOHN DEAN, WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL IN NIXON ADMINISTRATION: I did respond in a tweet that I don't think that Trump understands what's going on. We know he is somebody who does not really reveal his full factual problems with his attorneys. They have to sort of find it out the hard way. So I suspect there was no indication in any of this reporting that McGahn was briefed or debriefed before he went in or came out. So they don't really know what he told the special counsel.

And I can tell you this, that even if he didn't go in with the intent to incriminate the president, just giving the president or putting everything in a timeline for the special counsel is just invaluable information.


[18:05:02] CABRERA: Joining us now CNN legal analyst Renato Mariotti and Paul Callan. Renato is a former federal prosecutor, Paul is a former New York City prosecutor.

So, Paul, do you agree with John Dean that Trump likely has no idea what McGahn really said and that he likely gave investigators invaluable information?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think that's clear as day. Especially with this crazy dispute we're having about truth as enunciated by Mr. Giuliani saying, you know, just telling the truth doesn't protect you from perjury because what is the truth?

Well, I suspect that McGahn might have been revealing some of the truth in his interview with Mueller and now they don't know what he said in particular about what the president might have said about the conversation with Comey. And I think that they're very, very worried about this. It's very unusual that -- you have to remember that he's counsel to the White House. So he's not personal counsel to the president. His interest is representing the White House as a governmental entity whereas Giuliani represents the president personally. So different lawyers in different capacities.

CABRERA: And McGahn himself has a lawyer as well who apparently told the "New York Times" that he thought it was insane the president didn't try to fight his interview with Mueller's team up to the courts.

So according to the "New York Times," Renato, McGahn talked to investigators about Trump's comments and actions during James Comey's firing. About Trump's obsession with putting a loyalist in charge of the Mueller probe and about Trump's attempts to fire Mueller. Does that sound to you like a, quote-unquote, "strong" witness for the president?

RENATO MARIOTTI, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It doesn't sound like one to me. You know, it actually sounds to me like a very important witness for Robert Mueller. Remember that there were very few people who are in the room for some of these conversations. We've heard reporting that the president, you know, acted in an enraged fashion. Blew up at the Attorney General Jeff Sessions for recusing himself which is of course one of his duties if there's a conflict of interest.

And Don McGahn was in the room for that. Don McGahn was in the room when they discussed the firing of Comey. In fact there was an original letter that was penned by Stephen Miller reportedly at the president's direction that Don McGahn reviewed and edited and provided comments on. So he was very integrally involved in the reasoning and the decisions that were made that are going to be central to the obstruction investigation of Robert Mueller.

You know, the president has done a number of things that appear like they are trying to impede the investigation. And we read about them in the newspapers but you can't throw a newspaper in front of the jury if you're Robert Mueller. You need to have eyewitnesses. And that's what Don McGahn is. He's going to tell and appears to have told in 30 plus hours of interview what the president did, what the president said. That's going to be very important testimony.

CABRERA: And Paul, the president's lawyers say he hasn't asserted attorney-client privilege or executive privilege for White House officials and thus they argue it's even more reason why Trump doesn't need to speak to Mueller because they are getting all of the answers they need from other people. Is that a valid argument?

CALLAN: Well, they've always taken the position that the president cannot be forced to testify unless all other sources of information have been exhausted, and he's adding something new to the investigation. But what's bizarre here is that normally a client and a lawyer would sit down together and the lawyer would say to the client, this is what I'm going to talk to the prosecutor about and go through it in detail. And when that lawyer left the case, he would debrief the next lawyer about everything that's been revealed.

But this bumbling legal team seems not to be talking to each other. So it's really shocking that the president and his lawyers wouldn't know exactly what McGahn had to say. They're shooting in the dark now and that being the case, there is no way Trump will ever speak to Mueller since they don't know what McGahn said to Mueller.

CABRERA: Renato, today, President Trump is saying, Mueller and his team make Joseph McCarthy look like a baby? What is he talking about? MARIOTTI: You know, it's hard to tell sometimes what the president is

talking about. Robert Mueller is not only lawfully appointed. I think we got five different federal judges ruled that he was lawfully appointed, he's acting within his authority and he appears to be acting just like any other federal prosecutor is. Gathering evidence, using subpoenas and search warrants in a lawful fashion. They've all been upheld in court. All of Manafort's motions have been denied. You know, he is going through the process.

With Paul Manafort that is mandated by the Constitution, so from what I see, I see a justice system working when I look at Robert Mueller, Joe McCarthy is somebody someone who was, you know, engaged in improper accusations and using a public forum to shame people for activities that were not unlawful. So I just don't see the comparison there at all.

CALLAN: Can I just add also, Ana? I found that attack by the president as totally bizarre because counsel to the McCarthy committee was a guy named Roy Cohn, who the president has said is his favorite lawyer and in fact the president employed Roy Cohn after he left the McCarthy Commission. So if the McCarthy Commission was so reprehensible why would you hire the reprehensible lawyer who represented the committee to represent you? I don't know how the president would answer that question.


CABRERA: My head is spinning. Paul Callan, Renato Mariotti, good to have you both with us. Thank you so much.

So we talk legal analysis, now let's talk political fallout.

Joining us now Caitlin Huey-Burns, national political reporter for RealClearPolitics and Kelly Jane Torrance, deputy managing editor of the "Weekly Standard."

Ladies, it has been a whirlwind past week. First we have the Omarosa tapes. Then we have the White House announcement revoking former CIA director John Brennan's security clearance, then we learned White House counsel Don McGahn is cooperating extensively with Special Counsel Robert Mueller. All of this happening with, don't forget, Paul Manafort's verdict imminent.

So, Caitlin, are any of these political winners for the president?

CAITLIN HUEY-BURNS, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, REALCLEARPOLITICS: What a slow news summer that we're having here. I'm glad that you just gave us the timeline of the week because it's hard to remember sometimes and to keep track. The president in each of these cases has been weighing in, in real time voicing his opinions. And of course John Brennan, revoking his security clearance was a reaction to the Omarosa tapes, an effort to change the news cycle. And that in and of itself opened up a whole other controversy that drove the week until we're here now and we've seen the president tweet multiple times today and yesterday and the previous days weighing in on an investigation that is still ongoing and that we know it includes the president's own tweets.

And all the efforts that he and the White House makes to say we're cooperating fully. This needs to be over. Yet he still condemns the investigation and raises more questions about the obstruction part of that investigation.

CABRERA: And of course the Paul Manafort trial is really the first test of the special counsel team.

Kelly Jane, how important is this trial to the president, and the outcome specifically?

KELLY JANE TORRANCE, DEPUTY MANAGING EDITOR, THE WEEKLY STANDARD: No, I think it's a bit mixed because as the president has said and it's true, Paul Manafort is on trial for things completely unrelated to the Donald Trump campaign. But, you know, that doesn't really matter because Donald Trump has constantly defended Paul Manafort and talked about hiring the best people.

And I have to say that one of the things I found really shocking in reading that "New York Times" piece that we've been talking about on Don McGahn is that the White House has handed over a million documents to the special counsel's office. They've spent -- you know, it was 30 hours talking to Don McGahn. And there's one paragraph in that piece that said they don't think that they've talked to Don McGahn at all about anything that happened during the campaign, even though Don McGahn was actually on the Trump campaign.

So everyone -- you know, and of course, the president likes this narrative that this is about, you know, this witch hunt about whether the Trump campaign colluded with Russians. Well, that's how it started. But as soon as the president fired his FBI director and said on television, he was doing it because of Russia, it became about something else.

And the president again is his own worst enemy. I mean, Omarosa was a story partly because the president was tweeting about her.


TORRANCE: And so here you have it --

CABRERA: He really added the --

TORRANCE: Exactly.

CABRERA: Fan the flames.

TORRANCE: Exactly. And so it would be interesting if, you know, who knows what's going to happen with Don McGahn but it would be very interesting I think if it what comes out of this has absolutely nothing to do with what happened in the campaign. You know, the president would have only himself to blame.

CABRERA: Well, the "New York Times" is reporting that they were talking to him about the obstruction of justice case. So that would obviously tie directly into the president himself.

HUEY-BURNS: Right. Exactly. And pointing to what Paul was talking about, the difference between having the president's own attorney, which would be someone like Rudy Giuliani versus the White House counsel, that is a significant difference because we know the White House counsel of course is privy to all sorts of information. Things that we might not even know about, the firing of James Comey of course was the most public of that.

And so all of these things that he has seen in the White House that he would perhaps be asked about, the White House not knowing exactly the extent of those hours and hours and hours of those conversations. Certainly has to raise alarm bells in and of itself.

CABRERA: What's really important is that we all wait for the facts to come out.

HUEY-BURNS: Absolutely.

CABRERA: We have Rudy Giuliani on TV today suggesting there is no objective truth. Roll it.


GIULIANI: I'm not going to be rushed into having him testify so that he gets trapped into perjury. And when you tell me that, you know, he should testify because he is going to tell the truth, and he shouldn't worry. Well, that's so silly because it's somebody's version of the truth. Not the truth. He didn't have a conversation about --

TODD: Truth is truth. I don't mean to go like --

GIULIANI: You know, it isn't truth. Truth isn't truth. The president of the United States says I didn't --

TODD: Truth isn't truth? Mr. Mayor, do you realize what -- I --

GIULIANI: No. No, no.


TODD: This is going to become a bad meme.

GIULIANI: Don't do this to me.



[18:15:07] CABRERA: Kelly Jane?

TORRANCE: Yes. I have to say, as someone who has a degree in philosophy, I'm kind of glad in a way to see some serious philosophical discussion on "Meet the Press" for a change. And as a former film critic, I was hoping maybe Giuliani would bring (INAUDIBLE), because he actually had a very interest point, he just, you know, made it in a sort of typical Rudy way which is that, you know, the truth is the truth, we all agree with that.

I think what Giuliani was trying to say was how do you decide what is truth when you have competing versions of the truth. I mean I hope that's what he was saying.

CABRERA: Right. When you have competing narratives --

TORRANCE: Exactly.

CABRERA: How do you figure out who is telling the truth.

TORRANCE: Exactly. And I have to say this -- everything this week, a lot of it has been about authority. In a way I think it's good if Americans suddenly question authority. I mean, who do we believe? James Comey or the president? Well, then you have John Brennan. I'm thinking Michael Flynn, here was a guy who was head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, someone we all would think would be a very upstanding guy, and here he, you know, pled guilty under Mueller's thing.

So I think the idea that just because someone is in a high place in our political system doesn't mean we should never question them and question whether they're telling the truth and what their agenda is.

CABRERA: I mean, questioning the notion of truth, though, is something this White House has been doing when they go after the media, after journalists, where they really try to attack the facts.

HUEY-BURNS: Right, exactly, and any other circumstance, a client of Giuliani or a lawyer would not want that person to go out and say what exactly Giuliani has said because it raises its own headlines, creates its own controversy in and of itself. But this is a White House that has been trying to work or the president has been trying to work the public relations element of this whole investigation, trying to win in the court of public opinion before the facts come out of this case.

And when you look at the polling, it seems to be having an effect particularly among Republicans and his base but also starting with the general public and that's what they're trying to do here it seems. And Giuliani going out there every other day it seems to try to muddy the waters even more and get people to question the truth.

CABRERA: Thank you, ladies. Good to have you with us.

TORRANCE: Thank you.

CABRERA: Kelly Jane and Caitlin. Good to see you.

A husband and father is now under arrest for the killing of his wife and two young children. Now we learn more about their lives before they came to a tragic end, the possible motive next.

You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [18:21:30] CABRERA: Colorado prosecutors have one more day to charge a Denver area man in the death of his pregnant wife and two young daughters. The bodies of 4-year-old Bella and 3-year-old Celeste were found in an oil storage tank at a company where their father Chris Watts used to work. The body of their 34-year-old mother Shannan Watts was discovered nearby.

Meanwhile the judge in this case has denied a request from Watts' defense team to collect certain DNA evidence from the victims.

Correspondent Kaylee Hartung joins us now from Frederick, Colorado.

Kaylee, lots of questions obviously surrounding this unusual request and the judge's denial. What more can you tell us?

KAYLEE HARTUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, the defense made this very specific request about 20 minutes before the autopsies of the three victims were scheduled to begin on Friday. This request from the defense was for very specific DNA samples to be taken from the victims. They wanted samples taken from the little girls' necks and their hands, from Shannan's hands and from underneath her fingernails.

They also wanted a DNA expert of their choosing to be present for that process with the medical examiner. Well, when the judge received this request, he essentially said, I am not going to tell the medical examiner's office how to do their job. So that's not so say that these DNA samples weren't collected by the medical examiner in the course of the autopsy on their own volition. But the judge did deny that specific request coming from the defense. Those three autopsies at this point have been completed, Ana, but the results have not been shared publicly.

CABRERA: Kaylee, Shannan Watts shared that she had some health challenges. She struggled with the disease lupus. What can you tell us about that as well as what we know about what else was happening in their lives prior to this horrific crime?

HARTUNG: Ana, Shannan Watts shared so much of her life on social media. You could see photos of she and her seemingly happy and loving husband on vacation at the beach. You could see the everyday fun and chaos of raising a family with two young girls. But she also shared very personal moments on her social media accounts, like that moment we have all seen now of her telling her husband that she was pregnant with their third child.

But we also learned that her little girl Celeste that she suffered from allergy problems and that Bella had to see a chiropractor when she was barely 4 years old. Shannan also saying that yes, she suffered from autoimmune disease lupus. But in the past couple of years she credited a health and wellness brand that had products that she sold and also used and giving her more energy and focus in her daily life.

So much so that she said this product gave her the energy to wake up at 4:00 a.m. and begin completing items on her to-do list. But as is the case with all of us, social media doesn't give the whole picture. We've learned through court documents that this family had its share of financial struggles that they she seemed to have hid from most everyone else who knew them.

In 2015 Shannan and Chris Watts filed for bankruptcy. That filing coming after they purchased this house behind me, an asset valued at around $400,000 turns out they had a little over $70,000 in debt. That mostly made up of student debt and credit card purchases. Now by all accounts in the past couple of years, again that bankruptcy filing happening about three years ago, they gad had seemed to have been working their way out of it.

But in the course of this investigation, you know this is something that will be scrutinized by those looking into their past and what could have led us here.

[18:25:03] CABRERA: Kaylee Hartung in Frederick, Colorado, thank you.

Now this week's "Before the Bell," here's CNN's chief money correspondent Christine Romans -- Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Ana. An important deadline this week in America's trade war with China. Thursday is the day the U.S. will begin collecting those tariffs on another $60 billion in Chinese goods. Beijing said it would strike back dollar for dollar just like it did last month when the U.S. hit $34 billion in Chinese goods with tariffs?

Each trade headlines, Ana, captivating Wall Street. Last week's stocks cheered news that a Chinese trade delegation would head to the U.S. Later this month. Now previous rounds have failed to find a break through. But investors like that the two countries keep trying.

For most people their biggest investment is their house, Ana. Important new data this week on new and existing home sales. Housing has been a weak spot in an otherwise strong, very strong economy. Home sales fell the past three months. Tight supply is driving prices to record highs.

And that's locking out many potential buyers. But lower mortgage rates could help jumpstart home buying. The benchmark 30-year fixed rate mortgage is down the past two weeks. Mortgage rates follow the bond market, of course, the currency crisis in Turkey has been pushing investors into so-called safe havens like the bond market. As bond prices rise, yields fall, that pushes those mortgage rates lower.

In New York, I'm Christine Romans.


[18:31:09] ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: Iran's Foreign Minister says the U.S. has a disease, an addiction to sanctions. The blunt statement coming in an exclusive interview with CNN.

This is the first time the country's Foreign Minister has spoken to CNN since President Trump pulled out of the Iran nuclear deal back in May. Mohammad Javad Zarif was a key architect of that deal. His comments follow President Trump's threats of severe consequences against anyone who continues to trade with Iran.

CNN's senior international correspondent Nick Paton Walsh joins us from Tehran with this CNN exclusive.

Nick, what did the Foreign Minister tell you?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Quite clear in his mind, two things. One, that he hopes, desperately, that the European allies that also signed the nuclear deal Donald Trump pulled out of will somehow convince the White House to continue going along with it. Actually, he said he felt they are being kind of bullied into the position they currently stand in.

And secondly, also, to his extraordinary doubts about how trustworthy a negotiating partner Donald Trump might actually be. Remember, he pulled out of the nuclear deal. And we have just seen last week the first wave of renewed sanctions that were suspended under that deal snap back in. Another load coming in November.

Here is what the architect of the Iranian side of the deal had to say about the U.S.'s attitude toward sanctions.


MOHAMMAD JAVAD ZARIF, MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF IRAN: I believe there is a disease in the United States, and that is the addiction to sanctions. Even during the Obama administration, the United States put more emphasis on keeping the sanctions that it had not lifted rather than implementing its obligations on the sanctions that they lifted.

WALSH: If you felt the U.S. was addicted to sanctions, though, why did you go ahead with the deal?

ZARIF: That may have been one of the mistakes, but the problem was that we felt that the United States had learned that these, as far as Iran is concerned, sanctions do produce economic hardship, but do not produce the political outcomes that they intended them to produce.

And I thought that the Americans had learned that lesson. Unfortunately, I was wrong.


WALSH: Now, he was speaking on the 65th anniversary of an American- backed coup that ousted a democratically elected government here. And he sort of suggested, really, that the U.S. current government has a similar mindset back in the '50s.

He also said that, yes, there are new sanctions coming in November, and the recent economic turmoil we've seen here in Iran was actually a result of Iran kind of putting in difficult measures to get ready for the likely tougher times ahead.

Make no mistake, though, very difficult chance for diplomacy at all, frankly, between Washington and Tehran. I think, frankly, a moderate like Mr. Zarif feels betrayed by what Donald Trump did to that very intricately created nuclear deal. Back to you.

CABRERA: Nick Paton Walsh in Tehran. Thank you for that report, that exclusive report.

Our colleague, Jake Tapper, did a little digging into that stunning grand jury report that details sexual abuse allegations against more than 300 priests in Pennsylvania. Why one of the most powerful Catholics in the nation, the Archbishop of Washington, is under high scrutiny for the way he handled the allegations.


CABRERA: Just in, the Archdiocese of Philadelphia has defrocked two priests, one for sexual abuse, one for drug crimes. These cases are not connected with the Pennsylvania priests' abuse scandal. And there are new developments in that as well.

The Pennsylvania Attorney General, who came out swinging last week with a massive report on predatory priests, now accuses the Archbishop of Washington, Cardinal Daniel Wuerl -- Donald Wuerl of not telling the truth about his role in the cover-up.

Wuerl served as the bishop of Pittsburgh for 18 years and is repeatedly mentioned in that Pennsylvania report as one of the bishops who helped conceal the abusive behavior. CNN's Jake Tapper weighs the numerous criticisms aimed at Wuerl in the report with what the Cardinal claims in his defense.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Sunday morning was the first mass here since this shocking Pennsylvania grand jury report detailing allegations of widespread predatory behavior by more than 300 priests against more than a thousand children.

[18:40:08] And I'm standing here at St. Matthews Cathedral because before Donald Wuerl, the powerful cardinal of the Washington diocese, was hosting popes in this town, he was bishop in Pittsburgh for 18 years, and he was named throughout this report as one of the bishops who helped cover up the crimes.

The archdiocese declined our invitations to interview Cardinal Wuerl, but this week, in his defense, the Cardinal said, quote, the report confirms that I acted with diligence, with concern for the victims, and to prevent future acts of abuse, unquote.

The Pennsylvania Attorney General, Josh Shapiro, well, he disagrees, telling me exclusively, quote, Cardinal Wuerl is not telling the truth. Many of his statements in response to the grand jury report are directly contradicted by the church's own documents and records from their secret archives.

Among Wuerl's claims that do not stand up to scrutiny --

DONALD WILLIAM, ARCHBISHOP OF WASHINGTON: I think I did everything that I possibly could. TAPPER: Everything?

Father Richard Zula and Father George Zirwas of the Pittsburgh diocese were two former group of priests who, the grand jury found, quote, manufactured child pornography, and, quote, used whips, violence and sadism in raping their victims.

In 1988, Zula was arrested and charged with more than 130 counts related to child sex abuse. Now, a spokesman for Wuerl notes that Zula had been removed from his ministry before Wuerl came to Pittsburgh in early in 1988.

And that is true, but in 1989, Cardinal Wuerl authorized a $900,000 confidential settlement between the diocese and two of Zula's victims. And that included a hush agreement.

The diocese under Wuerl's leadership also hired a doctor who worked with Father Zula to lessen the sentence with a statement that the grand jury found, quote, blames the child victim rather than the adult criminal. And the diocese under Wuerl helped to secure Zula's early release.

NIKKI BATTISTE, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Did you ever move priests quietly to another --

WUERL: That wasn't our process.

TAPPER: Actually, it was the process with Father George Zirwas. The diocese of Pittsburgh under Wuerl who started there in 1988, quote, was aware of complaints against Zirwas for sexually abusing children as early as 1987.

Additional complaints were received between 1987 and 1995. And that includes in 1988, in 1991, while Wuerl was bishop of the diocese.

Quote, however, Zirwas continued to function as a priest during this period and was reassigned to several parishes, unquote. Despite all this evidence, a spokesman for Wuerl maintains that he acted promptly in this case and removed Zirwas.

WUERL: If there were allegations, we dealt with them immediately.

TAPPER: Immediately? Really? The predatory behavior of Father Ernest Paone dated back to the early 1960s. And Paone was shuffled from parish to parish all over the country.

In 1991, Cardinal Wuerl approved moving Paone to the diocese of Reno, Las Vegas, even though the Pittsburgh diocese knew of Paone's past. And in 1996, Wuerl refrained from sharing everything the Pittsburgh church knew about Paone's past with the diocese of San Diego.

Now, Wuerl's defenders note that, as a bishop in Pittsburgh, he disciplined some priests and he fought the Vatican against an order to reinstate a predator priest. The report notes that Wuerl had previously written to the Vatican that parishioners had a right to know if their priests were pedophiles. And a spokesman for Wuerl says he acted promptly to notify others

about the claims against Paone when he learned of them.

But the grand jury disagreed, writing, quote, in spite of Wuerl's statements to the Vatican, the clear and present threat that Paone posed to children was hidden and kept secret from parishioners in three states. Wuerl's statements had been meaningless without any action, unquote.

Now, these are just three stories from a report in which Cardinal Wuerl's name is mentioned 170 times. The Cardinal claims to answer to a higher authority. When will he answer on this earth for allegedly covering up crimes against children?

Jake Tapper, CNN, Washington.


CABRERA: Do social media companies discriminate? Are they making decisions about what you see based on political bias?

Now, the CEO of Twitter is responding to those questions and claims by critics in an interview with our Brian Stelter. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM.


CABRERA: From conspiracy theories to truly fake news, we know how social media can breed misinformation. And in a rare interview with CNN's Brian Stelter, the Twitter CEO says he knows his platform has trust issues.


JACK DORSEY, CEO, TWITTER: We realize that more and more people have fear of companies like ours and the perceived power that companies like ours have over how they live and even think every single day. And that is not right and it is not fair.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Well, you're right that a lot of Americans, a lot of people around the world, fear the power of these Silicon Valley giants. Are they right to fear your power? Do you feel as powerful as they think you are?

DORSEY: I don't feel as powerful as they think they are -- as they think we are, but I do understand the sentiment. I do understand how actions by us could generate more fear. And I think the only way we can disarm that is by being a lot more open and explaining, in a straightforward way, why we make decisions and how we make decisions.


CABRERA: Brian joins us now. Brian, what was your big take away from that interview?

[18:50:01] STELTER: You know, that he's asking the right questions, that he is saying the right things, that he has regrets about how Twitter has constructed itself and policed itself in the past. But I don't think he's at the solutions phase yet.

He is saying the right things, but we're not seeing the action yet. You know, for example, Dorsey is saying, look, some of the fundamental aspects of Twitter, like liking tweets and follower counts, we're going to rethink all of that. He says we're willing to question everything about our platform.

It's really interesting to hear a tech CEO saying that. You know, maybe we built this house wrong. Maybe there are problems with the foundation. But it's one thing to question that, it's another thing to get answers. And I think he's not at the answer stage yet.

I think what he's trying to do is show a lot more transparency at a time when people, all the way up to President Trump, are questioning Twitter's actions, accusing the company of censorship.

He is saying, hey, we are absolutely not censoring people based on politics. We need to do a better job explaining our rules.

CABRERA: I mean, it's a little bit like saying we didn't really know what we were getting ourselves into when we went down this path.

STELTER: Which, I think, Mark Zuckerberg has said as well.

CABRERA: I know. That's exactly what I was thinking.


CABRERA: The other thing that stands out to me is the fact that he hasn't done many interviews, Dorsey.


CABRERA: And, again, we saw that with Zuckerberg as well, really staying out of the limelight until there is sort of a P.R. crisis. Do you think this is what that is? I mean, he is talking to you now, Dorsey is talking to you, he's talking to Fox News, he's talking to "The New York Times."


CABRERA: Is this damage control?

STELTER: There is an element of P.R. response and also a response to political pressure. You know, these guys had to testify on Capitol Hill about Russian interference in the election. They'll be back on Capitol Hill next month. And right now, Dorsey is under pressure to come and testify about alleged censorship as well.

So they are fighting multiple battles, you know, in D.C., in Silicon Valley, and in the press as I think all of us -- whether we use these sites or not, all of us are seeing the downsides as well as the upsides of technology. You know, it was great 10 years ago, this flourishing of social

networks. I think people are reckoning with the consequences, including these CEOs.

CABRERA: It's a blessing and a bane in all of our lives in so many ways.


CABRERA: Let me switch gears. I want to your reaction to the interview on "Meet the Press" with Rudy Giuliani where he questions truth. Watch.


RUDY GIULIANI, PERSONAL ATTORNEY OF DONALD TRUMP: I'm not going to be rushed into having him testify so that he gets trapped into perjury.

And when you tell me that, you know, he should testify because he's going to tell the truth and he shouldn't worry, well, that's so silly because it's somebody's version of the truth, not the truth.

He didn't have a conversation about --

CHUCK TODD, MSNBC HOST: Truth is truth. I don't mean to go, like --

GIULIANI: No, it isn't truth. Truth isn't truth. The President of the United States says I didn't --

TODD: Truth is a truth, Mr. Mayor. Do you realize what -- I --

GIULIANI: No. No, no. What -- don't --

TODD: This is going to be a bad meme.

GIULIANI: Don't -- don't do this to me.


CABRERA: I mean, Giuliani there is trying to explain why he doesn't want the President to sit down with Robert Mueller. I mean, you can see Chuck Todd is, like, beside himself --


CABRERA: -- with this whole conversation over objective truth.

STELTER: Yes. Rudy's back is up against the wall just like President Trump's. They are clearly in a really difficult defense mode. But on one level, Rudy is right. And, look, I say that with a giant asterisk.

Rudy is right that for a part of the country's population, the truth is not the truth anymore. That President Trump's accomplishment has been to destroy the notion of commonly accepted set of facts. The truth is what the President says it is for a portion of his base. Now, that's not every Trump supporter. It's not the 40 percent that

say they approve him in polls. But for a portion of that really loyal base, the truth is what the President says it is or what Rudy Giuliani says it is.

And I think that is something we have to recognize as we talk about this. Like, it's -- we're kind of at the path of the end of a thousand lies now. At the end of a thousand lies, is this idea that truth isn't truth.

And I think, to most of us, that's repellant. But it is an accomplishment on part of the President to be able to degrade the idea that we can all agree on a commonly accepted set of facts. Am I being too pessimistic?


STELTER: I hope not but I'm trying to be realistic.

CABRERA: I think that's realistic.


CABRERA: I think a lot of people are seeing truth based on feeling, in some ways.


CABRERA: Not just what is black and white.

STELTER: And going forward now, there is a lot of speculation that Robert Mueller is going to release a report about obstruction of justice in the coming weeks. Well, Rudy has already said we're going to release our own report. We're going to have our own set of facts.

CABRERA: Oh, boy.

STELTER: So we're going to end up with two sets of the truth.

CABRERA: All right. Brian Stelter, thank you.

STELTER: Thanks.

CABRERA: Don't forget, you can catch his show, "RELIABLE SOURCES," Sunday at 11:00 a.m. Eastern here on CNN. We're back in a moment.


CABRERA: Check out what happened at a Backstreet Boys' concert this weekend. At least 14 fans were injured after a powerful storm blew over a metal structure just before the concert started.

The Backstreet Boys were scheduled to perform with 98 Degrees at this outside venue in southern Oklahoma. Staff tells CNN they tried evacuating fans after spotting lightning but roughly 150 people stayed put, not wanting to lose their places in line. The Backstreet Boys have said they will try to reschedule.


ARETHA FRANKLIN, SINGER: There ain't no doubt about it. Baby, I love you. Hey, I love you. I love you. I love you. Baby, I love you.


CABRERA: The world is still mourning the loss of the queen of soul. Millions of people have been enjoying the power of Aretha Franklin's music since she passed away Thursday. Her "30 Greatest Hits" shot to the top of the iTunes charts last week.

At her home church in Detroit today, close family friend, the Reverend Jesse Jackson, took to the pulpit and told the congregation Franklin's father once said that Aretha used her God-given talent for good, singing for Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Nelson Mandela, the NAACP, and other organizations.

Jackson drew a comparison between the last acts of Dr. King and Aretha Franklin.


[19:00:04] REV. JESSE JACKSON, CLOSE FAMILY FRIEND OF ARETHA FRANKLIN: The last event she got was with Elton John in New York. And she was a champion of cancer. She knew that she was dying, and yet a sick woman was there for the sick people.