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U.S. Senator John McCain Dies at 81. Aired 5-6a ET

Aired August 26, 2018 - 05:00   ET




UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN breaking news.

CYRIL VANIER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): The U.S. flag over the White House is at half staff to mark the passing of a giant figure in modern American politics. U.S. Senator John McCain died Saturday after a battle against cancer.

His final moments were spent at his home in the Arizona desert surrounded by his family. He was widely loved and admired. His colleagues in the U.S. Senate remember him as a firebrand, politically conservative but fiercely principled and independent.

Before entering politics, McCain served as a U.S. Navy aviator for more than 20 years. He survived being shot down over North Vietnam during the Vietnam War and endured more than five years as a prisoner of war.

Shortly after the news broke of his death, a procession of vehicles could be seen escorting a hearse from the property.

His wife, Cindy, sent a tweet following the news.

"My heart is broken. I am so lucky to have lived the adventure of loving this incredible man for 38 years. He passed the way he lived, on his own terms, surrounded by the people he loved, in the place he loved best."

Ryan Nobles has more on John McCain's long history in American politics.


RYAN NOBLES, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: He was a war hero always at the ready for a good political fight, a statesman with a reputation for siding with his conscience, Senator John McCain with a life of duty and service.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: There's nothing held within serving a cause greater than yourself interest.

NOBLES: Born to two generations of Admiral's, McCain graduated from the Naval Academy later trained as a pilot. At age 30 he saw his first combat during the Vietnam War. On his 23rd mission in 1967, a missile hit his plane. He ejected, was captured and spent more than five years as a prisoner of war. The bonds he formed with the other prisoners he said changed his life.

MCCAIN: Well, the camaraderie, the friendship, the love that we had for each other was still the most remarkable experience of my life.

NOBLES: In 1973, McCain returned home physically disabled, hailed as a war hero. Upon retiring from the Navy in 1981, he relocated to Arizona with his second wife, Cindy. A year later he was elected to the United States House of Representatives where he served for two terms. In 1986 McCain won a seat in the U.S. Senate and held it for more than three decades.

MCCAIN: The thing I liked about the Senate, if there's an issue up before this -- on the floor of the Senate, I can go down and talk, I can go down and propose an amendment, I can go down and you know, sometimes I can go down and make a fool of myself.

NOBLES: As a lawmaker, McCain remains close to military causes. He took aim at pork-barrel spending and worked with Democrats on health care reform. At times his willingness to buck the will of his own party earned him a maverick reputation.

MCCAIN: Be strong, have courage and fight.

NOBLES: In 1999 he announced he was running for president but ultimately endorsed George W Bush. In 2008 he earned the Republican Party's presidential nomination. His straight talk express bus became an emblem for his campaign as it crisscrossed the country selling voters on tax cuts, national security, immigration reform and health care deregulation. But he lost the race to Senate colleague Barack Obama. Then came a Trump presidency.

McCain surfaced as one of Trumps most outspoken critics and part of the so- called fearless five GOP Senators who defied the president during his first year. But at a time of great political turmoil, McCain had to face his own upheaval. In 2017 he was diagnosed with brain cancer. After surgery, he returned to the Senate for a critical vote. His parties push to repeal ObamaCare. McCain's Maverick reputation on vivid display as he derailed Republican efforts with a defiant thumbs down, a dramatic last chapter for a man finally free, he said, to vote without reservation.

MCCAIN: Our reputations, our character are the only things we leave behind when we depart this Earth.

NOBLES: John McCain, a naval aviator and senator who embraced his destiny and led a life of national service.


VANIER: John McCain was not on good terms with the current U.S. president.

[05:05:00] VANIER: During the campaign, Donald Trump belittled his time as a prison of war. Trump who never served in the military himself was widely criticized but never apologized.

After he died, he tweeted, "My deepest sympathies and respect go out to the family of Senator John McCain. Our hearts and prayers are with you!"

John McCain, during his time in office, more than 30 years in the Senate, worked with all the recent U.S. presidents. And they all remember him.

Former U.S. president Bill Clinton and former secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, say McCain frequently put partisanship aside to do what he thought was best for the country.

The Clintons wrote, "John McCain believes every citizen has a responsibility to make something of the freedoms given by our Constitution. And from his heroic service in the Navy, to his 35 years in Congress, he lived by his creed every day."

Former U.S. president, Jimmy Carter, issued a statement on his death.

He said, "John McCain was a man of honor, a true patriot in the best sense of the word. Americans will be forever grateful for his heroic military service and his steadfast integrity as a member of the United States Senate. Rosalyn and I extend our sincere condolences to Senator McCain's family and to the people of Arizona whom he represented so forthrightly for so many years."

Former U.S. president George W. Bush issued a heartfelt statement, saying this, "Some lives are so vivid, it is difficult to imagine them ending. Some voices are so vibrant, it is hard to think of them still. John McCain was a man of deep conviction and a patriot to the highest order.

"He was a public servant in the finest traditions of our country. And to me, he was a friend, whom I will deeply miss. Laura and I send our heartfelt sympathies to Cindy and the entire McCain family and our thanks to God for the life of John McCain."

Leaders around the world are honoring him. Indian prime minister Narendra Modi posted this photo of him and John McCain, saying that the people of India join me in sincerely condoling the loss of a steadfast friend. His statesmanship, courage, conviction and understanding of global affairs will be missed."

Afghan president Ashraf Ghani wrote, "Senator McCain served his country honorably in uniform and his service in the Senate is truly exemplary. We will remember his dedication and support toward rebuilding Afghanistan."

This one from South Korean president, Moon Jae-in, "John McCain was a figure who symbolized America's value of freedom. I believed that he would overcome the illness with a strong spirit. But now we cannot meet him again." Let's hear more of how McCain is being remembered around the world.

CNN's international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson is live in London. Senior international correspondent Ivan Watson is in Hong Kong, where John McCain has a deep history with the Asian continent.

Nic, I want to start with you. John McCain is a unique figure in American politics. We were talking about that before. But I think, to a degree, he is also a unique figure in the world.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: He is. And principally because he was recognized by leaders around the world because he interacted with them. He went on trips to many countries.

Although he wasn't president, wasn't in office, he represented the United States' interests, looked out for the United States' interests on the ground in those countries. I remember seeing him in Afghanistan, there proposing the way the United States could best help the Afghan people.

Ashraf Ghani, the Afghan president, today, has remembered Senator McCain, saying he was a friend of the Afghan people.

But I think when we look around the world and see where the tributes are coming in from, the German embassy, a very telling tribute in the early hours today. They said, you know, "Senator McCain recognized the importance of the transatlantic alliance."

We are seeing, if we look at the countries and the leaders who are responding most quickly, that the countries that have found themselves in difficulty over the past number of decades, countries that Senator McCain visited to support their interest, talking here about Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania, close to the border with Russia.

We're talking about Ukraine, President Petro Poroshenko offering his condolences; Georgia, suffering from Russian influences there. So the countries and the leaders responding are those that have looked to the United States for support and found that support and understanding from Senator McCain, who would visit them and be an advocate for their cause often, back in the United States.

I think, today, that is why the tributes --


ROBERTSON: -- about his vision, his understanding of the world, his integrity, his belief in upholding the values of freedom and democracy, these are words that keep coming through in the tributes of many leaders we are hearing today.

VANIER: Ivan, the legend of John McCain really started in your neck of the woods, in Asia, specifically in Vietnam. Tell us about that.

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. It is in Vietnam, where he is front page news on Vietnamese news portals right now, which are lauding him, for example, Zing News (ph) calling Senator John McCain a monumental American political figure who has passed away.

Vien Express (ph), the biggest Vietnamese online news channel, saying 35 years of John McCain's political career and his fight to normalize the Vietnamese-U.S. relationship.

Of course, this is because of his intimate and long history with Vietnam, going back to the bloody, deadly Vietnam War, when he was shot down on what was his 23rd mission as a Navy aviator on a bombing run over Hanoi and ended up crashing into a lake in Hanoi and being taken prisoner for more than five years.

He was the son of a prominent U.S. Navy commander. The North Vietnamese offered multiple times to release him earlier than his fellow POWs. And multiple times he refused, even though he suffered repeated torture, had his arms broken multiple times, suffered near starvation-like conditions, where his weight went down to 105 pounds.

But he refused to go ahead of his fellow POWs. By the time he was released, he became a war hero back in the U.S.

Now in the decades following that, he worked hard to reestablish ties with Vietnam. And he applauded President Clinton, then a Democrat, when, in 1995, President Clinton reestablished diplomatic ties with Vietnam.

That same year, McCain put out this statement, where he celebrated that move, adding, quote, "We have looked back in anger at Vietnam for too long. I cannot allow whatever resentments I incurred during my time in Vietnam to hold me from doing what is so clearly my duty.

"I believe it is my duty to encourage this country to build from the losses and the hopes of our tragic war in Vietnam, a better peace for both the American and the Vietnamese people."

So this is a testament to the fact that McCain was able to come back from his horrific ordeal as a prisoner of war and lobby for peace and improve relations with Vietnam and that Vietnam, itself, was able to overcome that.

When you go to the infamous Hanoi Hilton, now a museum, that holo prison in one of the displays there, it shows pictures of McCain as a prisoner and then when he returned as a lawmaker in much friendlier times in U.S.-Vietnamese relations.

VANIER: John McCain, the former Vietnam prisoner of war, who is then the one pushing for and implementing the normalization of relations with Vietnam. It's really a remarkable story and it gives us a window into what kind of man and politician he was.

Nic Robertson, Ivan Watson, a pleasure speaking to you both. Thank you.

The pope in Ireland. Thousands greeting him on the streets. And now as we watch live pictures, a former Vatican official calling for him to resign. We'll have that story -- next. (MUSIC PLAYING)




VANIER: The other big story we are following today is this, Pope Francis now in the town of Knock, Ireland. Amid overcast, rainy skies, the dark cloud of church sexual abuse is weighing heavy on what would be normally a celebratory occasion. You're watching live pictures right now.

Already on his historic trip, the pope met with victims of child sex abuse and he has made his strongest statement yet on the church sexual abuse scandal, saying the outrage over what he called "appalling crimes" is justified.


POPE FRANCIS, PONTIFF, ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH (through translator): I acknowledge the serious scandal caused in Ireland by the abuse of minors by members of the church in charge of their protection and education.

I, myself, share those sentiments. The failure of ecclesiastical authorities, bishops, religious superiors and others to adequately address these appalling crimes has rightly given rise to outrage and remains a source of pain and shame for the Catholic community.


VANIER: Again, we are back to the live pictures. The pope making his way to the pilgrimage site in Knock, Ireland, visited by about 1.5 million pilgrims every year. Catholicism holds that, in 1879, the Madonna, accompanied by Sts. James and Joseph, appeared to parishioners in Knock, Ireland. That is why the pope is visiting this site. He will deliver the angelus later.

At the time as this is happening, a call for the pope's resignation. A former Vatican ambassador to Washington says he told the pope about allegations of sexual abuse against cardinal Theodore McCarrick in 2013 and the pope did nothing about it.

Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano says Pope Francis must set an example himself and resign. There's been no response from the Vatican so far. Our Vatican correspondent Delia Gallagher joins us on the line. She's been traveling with the pope to Knock.

Is there a precedent for this?

How significant is this call for the pope's resignation?

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's significant, considering the person it is coming from. This is a former ambassador to the U.S. from 2011 to 2016, so both under Pope Benedict and Pope Francis.

Before that, Cardinal Vigano served in the secretariat of state and in various other offices at the Vatican, so he has released a very detailed letter accusing Pope Francis (INAUDIBLE) and many other cardinals at the Vatican for knowing about the Cardinal McCarrick's harassment, sexual abuse of seminarians and not saying or doing anything about it.

And further, Cardinal Vigano accuses the Vatican for saying that Pope Benedict actually thanked him, Cardinal McCarrick, and told him to retire from public life and that those sanctions were never enforced by anybody around Cardinal McCarrick.

So they are very heavy accusations. We just got off the plane from Dublin to Knock with Pope Francis. We asked for a comment from the Vatican spokesman. He did not speak to us.

The whole Vatican press corps is --


GALLAGHER: -- aboard the plane. At the moment, the Vatican has no comment about the accusations. But certainly, it's quite unprecedented for (INAUDIBLE) circle, let's say, to come forward and give this kind of detail. So it remains to be seen what Pope Francis' response is going to be.

VANIER: Right. On the Irish side, there's already been a mixed response to what the pope has said so far, in terms of addressing the church sexual abuse allegations.

I want to inform my viewers what we are looking at. We are in Knock, Ireland, and the pope is just getting off the Popemobile where he will visit the Chapel of the Apparition, where the Madonna and Sts. John and Joseph appeared to parishioners, according to Catholics a little over 100 years ago.

The pope will be depositing a gold rosary after a silent prayer before the Madonna.

Delia, I want to get back to that.

What, so far, has been the reaction of Catholics and the Irish, at large, to the pope's visit?

GALLAGHER: Well, as you know, in Ireland, in the United States, in Australia, there have been calls (INAUDIBLE) not just for words, they say, the pope and from the Vatican, but for action.

So I think going into the trip, the difficulty was that people had a very high expectation that Pope Francis would come out with some sort of action plan and this is what we are going to do now.

He hasn't done that. He's certainly mentioned the sex abuse crisis in his first speech in Ireland yesterday in front of government authorities and he did meet with survivors yesterday. So those are important words and gestures. But certainly still heard

from the people here in Ireland they would like to see, what is the plan, especially for the accountability for those bishops who knew about cases and covered them up.

So that part, probably will be on this trip but it is something that people are still calling out to the Vatican to explain exactly what their plan is going forward.

VANIER: Delia Gallagher, our Vatican correspondent, stand by. Thank you very much.

I want to get to Mark Vincent Healy. He is a member of the group End Clergy Abuse. He joins us from Dublin.

The pope will be back in Dublin shortly, actually. He will get on a flight back to Dublin from Knock.

What do you think of the pope's visit so far?

In fact, let me start by getting your reaction to the call for his resignation?

MARK VINCENT HEALY, END CLERGY ABUSE: I wholly support it. The facts that are being revealed are truthful, which I have no doubt are, therefore if he is complicit in fact in trying to cover up abuse and the knowledge of abuse or what McCarrick was involved in.

And obviously, he is now -- he is now chasing the inescapable reality that the Catholic Church we have seen from a survive point of view is in meltdown. And this, sadly, is the reality of what many survivors have had to face, an arduous hierarchy that's been denying us the truth and revelations of what actually happened to us.

And that concealment is now bringing them down.

VANIER: We can't independently confirm the veracity of the accusations put forward by Archbishop Vigano. He put them in writing, in an 11-page letter. Our Vatican correspondent was making the point earlier in the show that he is a credible source because of his position, because of his lifelong work.

How do you feel about the pope's visit so far?

If we table that for a second and this call for his resignation, how do you feel about the way the pope has addressed the clerical abuse scandal?

HEALY: I don't think he has. That's why we are very dissatisfied, as survivors. We are looking for action and action is (INAUDIBLE) forthcoming. We are getting more (INAUDIBLE) repeated cut and paste apologies and weak answers.

We understand that you are sorrowful. We understand that your (INAUDIBLE). But these are words (INAUDIBLE), which you have been giving us for a long time. Remember this location is actually followed from what was a papal commission of inquiry that was sent over by his predecessor in 2010.

What's actually happened since then?

Nothing. There's been nothing in his own papacy under the papal commission for the protection of minors that has achieved anything. Holding bishops to account, a canonical court be set up?

None of this has happened. This is not a good day for the papal visit. This is a bad visit. It reveals, here in Ireland, the --


HEALY: -- horror, injustice and shame that has been heaped upon so many survivors.

But now survivors are getting at least that message out there and, through these sorts of opportunities, which the pope is giving us, by visiting countries like Ireland to raise awareness of the scale of abuse and collusion and coverup that was part and parcel of the hierarchy of the church.

VANIER: Mark, if I could ask you to stand by with for me for a second, I want to explain to viewers what we are seeing. We are getting live pictures of the pope in Knock, Ireland, where it's 10:30 local time. He is visiting the Chapel of the Apparition.

If you're just joining us, this is where Catholics believe that in 1879, the Madonna and Sts. John and Joseph appeared before several parishioners. It's become a site of pilgrimage. Over 1 million people visit this site every year. John Paul II also visited this site to mark the 100-year anniversary. So it was in 1979, almost 40 years from now.

I mean, and the pope is now silently praying and is expected to deposit a gold rosary. In fact, he commented that he knew how important that was, the rosaries to Ireland at the foot of the Madonna. After that, he will deliver the angelus.

Of course it will be interesting to see whether he addresses, we believe, he may well address the church sexual abuse scandal, again, in those words. After that, he will go back to Dublin to conduct a mass, where up to a half a million people in Phoenix Park.

Mark, with that scene set, and thank you for your patience, I want to go -- I want to go to the perception of the pope. Years ago, when he acceded to the papacy, when he became pope, for years he was seen as a reformer. He was seen as somebody who had the courage to speak out against the clergy, against the Vatican, against his own kind and even take measures against the clergy.

What is left of that?

HEALY: The thing about this particular pope is that he took ages to actually meet with survivors. He was brought in, was elevated as pope in March of 2013. He didn't meet with the first survivors, of which I was one of six survivors, two from Ireland, two from Britain and two from Germany.

He met with us in July of 2014 only because there was public pressure upon him to meet with survivors. He actually wasn't meeting with us. And he had those meetings and they were behind closed doors. We can't actually express what it is that we are here to meet the pontiff about. So it's taken --



Sounds like we may have lost the connection there. We were speaking with Mark Vincent Healy. We'll try to get him back up and running. What you are seeing is a silent prayer by the pope as he visits the Chapel of the Apparition. We will bring you his words when he delivers the angelus.

We are now remembering the life of Senator John McCain. Throughout his career, he was known as a fighter, whether in war, in the U.S. Senate or on the campaign trail.


MCCAIN: I will fight every moment of every day in this campaign to make sure Americans are not deceived by an eloquent but empty call for change.


VANIER: We'll also take a closer look at the mark he left on the Senate and what the Maverick accomplished. Stay with us.





VANIER: Welcome back. We go back to the live pictures of Pope Francis at the pilgrimage site of Knock, Ireland. He has been praying silently in front of the Madonna and will deliver an angelus shortly.

Our Vatican correspondent, Delia Gallagher has been traveling with the pope to Knock.

Delia, first of all, help us understand, give us a better sense of what we are seeing and what is happening right now.

GALLAGHER: Well, this is really one of the main religious pilgrimage sites in Ireland, Knock, where the Virgin Mary is said to have appeared in the late 1800s and it's symbolic of the great historical, traditional Catholic faith of this country.

Pope Francis, if you will (INAUDIBLE) say a few remarks. Great crowds have turned out despite the (INAUDIBLE) the wind (INAUDIBLE) here in Ireland the enthusiasm of some of these people.

You were speaking to your guest earlier about the popularity of Pope Francis and people's love for him. It's interesting here in Ireland, I'm asking people about that. You know, despite the fact, a kind of loss of faith in the hierarchy of the church, there's still a great love for Pope Francis.

That has been around since the get-go, since 2013, when he was installed as pope. I have to say, throughout those years, he's been popular, he's been well respected on environmental issues, on his call for the poor and the outcast.

But throughout that, as your guest pointed out, there's been his Achilles heel on sex abuse. And no more was that seen more clearly than just recently in the cases in Chile because it was the pope himself who appointed a bishop down in Chile who had been accused by his own people and by some other members of the church for covering up the sex abuse and Pope Francis staunchly defended him for several years. That created what became a very big sex abuse crisis in Chile.

So with Pope Francis, we have a man who has been very popular on a number of fronts but --


GALLAGHER: -- certainly criticized throughout for his handling of some of these (INAUDIBLE).

VANIER: Delia, we are watching the pope right now. I believe he is getting ready to go up to the podium, where he will deliver the angelus. So I may have to interrupt you any moment.

How do Catholics reconcile that, the pope and everything he represents and, especially this pope, with as you say, his Achilles heel?

I just wonder how they put those two things together.

I say this as the pope walks up to the podium.

GALLAGHER: I have also asked that question here in Ireland and in other places because there is a lot of anger, certainly on the sex abuse against the Catholic Church. I think there is always the hope on the part of Catholics that the pope, as he has said, is on their side and is doing his utmost to help find justice for victims.

Part of it is that the Vatican does have in place norms for bishop accountability. They do have an office where bishops' cases of coverup can come. Pope Francis wrote a document on that himself in 2016 and created that. His commission fell apart.

They resigned because they said the Vatican was not putting into practice some of their recommendations. The pope tried to remedy some of that. The problem is, nobody's gone through that process. If they have gone through, we don't know about it because the Vatican is not transparent --


VANIER: Delia, respectfully, I have to interrupt you as the pope is about to address the faithful and deliver (INAUDIBLE).


FRANCIS (through translator): Dear brothers and sisters, I'm really happy to be here with you today. I am happy to be here with you in the house of the Madonna. I thank God for the opportunity to visit in the context of the World Meeting of Families this shrine, so dear to the Irish people.

I would like to say thank you to the archbishop of (INAUDIBLE) and the rector for the youth for their warm welcome. In the Apparition Chapel, I lifted up Our Lady's loving intercession for all the families of the world and in a special way for your own families, the families of Ireland.

Mary, our mother, knows all the joys and the struggles that are felt in every house, holding them in her immaculate heart, she brings with love everything to the throne of her son.

As a remembrance of my visit, I have presented to the shrine a golden rosary. I know how important this is in this country and the tradition of the family rosary.


FRANCIS (through translator): And, please, continue with this tradition. Who can tell how many have a father, mother and children, have drawn strength and comfort over the years, meditating on the (INAUDIBLE) luminous, painful and glorious mysteries of the life of Christ.

Mary is a mother. Mary is our mother and she's also the mother of the church. It is to her that we commit to the journey of God's faithful people on this emerald island.

So I request that the families be sustained in their work, to balance Christ (INAUDIBLE) and also care for each and every one of our brothers and sisters --


FRANCIS (through translator): -- amid the storms and winds of our times.

May they be -- may the family be the bulwark of faith and goodness and kindness, persisting in the restorations of the nations and keep away from everything that diminish and affect the dignity of men and women, created in God's image, and called to this sublime destiny of eternal life.

May the Madonna look with mercy on all the suffering members of her son's family. While I prayed before her statue today, I presented especially all the victims of abuse, committed by members of the church in Ireland.


FRANCIS (through translator): None of us can fail to be moved by the stories of minors who have suffered abuse, who have been deprived of their innocence, who have been kept away from their mothers and left scarred by painful memories.

These are open wounds. It's a challenge to us to be firm and decisive in the pursuit of truth and justice.


FRANCIS (through translator): And I beg the Lord's forgiveness for these sins and for the (INAUDIBLE) and the betrayal felt by so many in God's family. I request our blessed mother to intercede for all survivors of abuse, for their healing and to compare to each member of our interfamily in their resolve to, never again, allow these situations occur.


FRANCIS (through translator): And also to intercede, for all of us, so that we can act in justice and to avoid all the violence.

My pilgrimage to Knock also allows me to address and lead the world (INAUDIBLE) into the beloved people of Northern Ireland, although, my journey --


FRANCIS (through translator): -- even though my journey for the World Meeting of Families does include a visit to the North, I can assure you my affection and my closeness to you in prayer. I request our Madonna to sustain all the members of the Irish family to persevere, brothers and sisters in the work of reconciliation.

With gratitude for your help, advancing (INAUDIBLE) and for the significant growth of friendship and cooperation between the Christian communities. Thus I pray so that the followers of Christ can carry on and take forward the effort of them, the peace process and to be a society which is harmonious and fair for today's children.

Whether they are Christians, whether they are Muslims, whether they are Jewish, no matter their faith, the children, for all the children of Ireland. And now, with these intentions and the other intentions hiding in our heart, let us turn to our blessed Virgin Mary in the prayer of the angelus.


FRANCIS (through translator): Hail Mary, full of grace. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and in the hour of our death.

VANIER: You have been listening to the pope delivering the angelus at the site of pilgrimage in Knock, Ireland. Our Vatican correspondent Delia Gallagher has been traveling with the papal delegation.

Delia, the pope did address the clerical sexual abuse scandal.

What did you make of it?

GALLAGHER: He's doing it in a place which represents the real Catholicism for Ireland, under the protection of Our Lady of Knock, who is a beloved figure. And this is a much visited shrine.

So it has a real heartfelt significance in asking the virgin to help Ireland with the healing and also saying, asking for forgiveness for the scandal and betrayal. So important words that the pope says this scandal challenges us to be firm and decisive in the pursuit of truth and justice.

These are not new words, I'd say they are poignantly expressed at this moment and important, again, that he reiterate them here, as I say, in this shrine of such significance for the Irish people.

VANIER: Yes. I'm looking through the words. I was looking through my notes.

"None of us can be failed to be moved by the stories of minors who suffered abuse, were deprived of their innocence and kept from their mothers, left scarred by painful memories."

There are few countries in the world where those words will resonate as much as and cut as deep as Ireland -- Delia.

GALLAGHER: Yes, you know, the line of children being brought of their mothers is, of course, a reference to the horrendous mother and baby homes, which were run by nuns. And there have been the maudlin laundries, for example.

And the pope met with two survivors of those mother and children homes yesterday, when he met with other survivors of sex abuse. They released a statement, saying he was particularly moved by their stories.

That's something, which, in Ireland, has also been part of the anger against the Catholic Church, that there were these homes run by nuns, where unwed mothers went, were treated very badly and oftentimes their children taken away from them.

So the pope added that in, actually. It wasn't in his prepared remarks, which tells me he was very moved by that meeting yesterday and by their stories. And that is also an important wound to address here in Ireland.

VANIER: Vatican correspondent Delia Gallagher, thank you so much. It is 10 minutes to 11:00 am in Ireland. The pope has just delivered the angelus. You can see him walking off the stage now at this pilgrimage site of Knock, Ireland.

He will now be flying back to Dublin for his mass in a few hours. Hundreds of thousands of people are expected to attend. More coverage of this after the break. Stay with us.





VANIER: Welcome back. We are still watching pictures of Knock, Ireland, where the pope has just been delivering the angelus and he mentioned, once again, it is now the third time in his trip he mentions the church sex abuse scandal.

His words, "None of us can be failed to be moved by the stories of minors who suffered abuse, were deprived of their innocence and kept from their mothers and left scarred by painful memories."

Let me get Mark Vincent Healy's reaction. He's a member of the group End Clergy Abuse.

Mark, we have a few minutes left but I wanted to get your reaction since we were cut off earlier, to what we just heard.

HEALY: I think it's more of the same. Again, it's appreciated that he wants to ask for prayer for survivors, for their painful memories. But the reality is that so many survivors are over-represented in the most harrowing statistics in our society. And certainly throughout America, for example, high rates of unemployment, high rates of self- harming and suicide, high rates of homelessness, high rates of end of life difficulties, which are, again, characterized by a willful end of their own lives because they cannot deal with these memories.

We are not just talking about painful memories, we are talking about real realities, real world realities. The pope is not going to deliver this by a prayer to Our Lady. It's going to be by disclosure.

This church is in meltdown. It's now fighting itself. Some are giving information about what is a call for the removal of the pope. A house divided will fall. We, as survivors, though, we are not moved by these words or prayers.

We appreciate the prayers. I am a man of faith. But I'm also a man who needs to see redress for so many survivors who live with real world suffering. And that's not being addressed here by the pope in his speech here at Knock.

We are looking for more. We are looking for full disclosure of all the files and all the information that the church has held back, which denies justice to survivors worldwide. And you talk there in the piece about how deeply Ireland has been affected.

We have reported 18,500 cases of clerical child sexual abuse, mother and baby homes, across maximum laundries, our residential institutions and also our day schools are coming up and surfacing as another issue. To reflect on what that represents, if it was in America, you would

have to be reporting upward of 280,000 cases of child sexual abuse to understand how deeply --


HEALY: -- wounded Ireland is in comparison across the scale or size of the Catholic population of our two countries.

VANIER: Mark, far from this bringing you any comfort, the pope's words and the pope's visit, sounds like you feel this is a slap in the face?

HEALY: It's totally. It's ineffectual. He is not getting to the real world issues. He's not getting that we are looking for justice. He's not getting that we want the truth. This is very, very important. We have to get to that truth. We need the (INAUDIBLE) records opened up.

I'm surprised, for example, there aren't federal laws in the United States, demanding, as is now happening down in Chile, where the federal authorities -- their authorities down there are raiding all of the church files.

America, get with it. Start raiding all those files. Gather them up. Do not take no for an answer and get to the bottom of this.

VANIER: Mark Vincent Healy, member of group End Clergy Abuse, I'm so grateful for you taking the time to talk to us and walk us through how you look at this and the pope's words.

Pope Francis just delivered the angelus at Knock in Ireland, a site of pilgrimage. More than a million people go there every year. Now he will fly back to Dublin and conduct a mass in a few hours before hundreds of thousands of people.

Mark, thank you very much.

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