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Reporting Indicates U.S. and Saudi Arabian Authorities Working on Mutually Agreeable Version of Events Surrounding Disappearance and Possible Death of Journalist. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired October 18, 2018 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:00:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: -- "Washington Post" journalist Jamal Khashoggi, a mutually agreeable version that "The Post" says does not implicate the Saudi crown prince who happens to be great friends with Jared Kushner. A mutually agreeable version might prove to be difficult to find especially given new reporting in the "New York Times" that U.S. and European intelligence agencies are, quote, "increasingly convinced" of the Saudi prince's culpability in Khashoggi's apparent murder. So does this mutually agreeable version of events mean a factual version of events? I want you to listen to what the secretary of state said about that subject.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: I don't want to talk about any of the facts. They didn't want to either in that they want to have an opportunity to complete this investigation in a thorough way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: We don't want to talk about the facts as part of this investigation.

In just a few hours the secretary will brief the president about his meetings with Saudi and Turkish leaders. The secretary has been criticized for this, the smiley photo op with the Saudi crown prince. So perhaps because of that sources wanted CNN to know that the secretary was tougher behind closed doors. The source claimed that Pompeo told the Saudi crown prince his future as king would be imperiled if he does not own the situation.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: As all of that is happening, Special Counsel Robert Mueller's Russia investigation is still quietly moving ahead. And just to put in perspective for you what's happening, because as we know there aren't any leaks in that investigation, Mueller's team had at least nine meetings in the last four weeks with former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort and his lawyers. White House insiders expecting more indictments after the midterms with a report likely to be released by the end of the year.

And all of this as Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein grants a rare interview to "The Wall Street Journal," inviting the paper in, insisting the probe is, quote, appropriate and independent, going on to say "the public will have confidence the cases we brought were warranted." Joining us now CNN political director David Chalian, CNN chief legal

analyst and former federal prosecutor Jeffrey Toobin, and CNN White House correspondent Abby Phillip. As we're looking at all of this, and Abby, I do want to start with you because so much of what is happening behind you there at the White House as the sun rises is going to dictate a lot of what happens today. We're now two hours away from this meeting between Secretary Pompeo and the president with this stunning reporting that the U.S. and Saudi Arabia are essentially trying to figure out what the story should be to put out there publicly, Abby.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is going to be a really important meeting that's happening in a couple of hours. Pompeo is going to sit down with the president and basically tell him what he learned privately in those conversations with the crown prince and with King Salman.

And what we have heard from our sources, as you noted, was that Pompeo delivered a message that the Saudis need to come up with something over the next couple of days, that they can say about what they believe happened. And the question will be, does President Trump think that is plausible or not? It is going to hinge on whether or not it implicates the crown prince or not. The president has said, if they knew about it, that would change his mind about the situation.

Now, I would argue that what the crown prince and the Saudis are able to come up with is going to be different in some ways from what the Turks are learning and what they apparently have in the way of audio recordings or even video of these individuals or what happened inside of the consulate. So it is not just going to be what the Saudis can come up with. It is also going to be how does that square with what other evidence there is out there.

I think the president has a choice to make. Does he take the Saudi's word for it or decide that it is just too much for the United States to be implicated in this situation, an apparent dismemberment inside the Saudi consulate that implicates human right and has really broad implications for foreign policy well beyond the Trump administration.

BERMAN: David Chalian, Abby just said the secretary will tell the president what he learned. What possibly could he have learned if the secretary of state told us that the Saudis didn't want to talk about the facts? That's a stunning statement to have heard from the secretary of state, especially now, given the reporting from the "Washington Post" that the White House and the Saudi royal family are trying to cook up a story. I know that sounds pejorative there, but a mutually agreeable version of a story that doesn't implicate the crown prince doesn't sound like let's let the facts dictate where we go on this.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICS DIRECTOR: It is certainly not impossible that a mutually agreeable version and a factual version are the same thing, but it is certainly not likely, John. And there should be one version here. That should be the version of the facts of what happened, and then the chips should fall where they do. This is -- we are in a moral authority test here for the president.

And you will recall a little over a year ago when we were all looking at the terrible incidents in Charlottesville, it was pretty much at that point that the president had sort of relinquished the moral authority. That was in a domestic context.

[08:05:05] Then in Helsinki with Putin in July we saw him abdicate that moral authority yet again on the world stage. And this is another test. And at the moment with talk like that, that Pompeo saying I don't want to talk about facts. We are going to get into a mutually agreed upon story, as you say the "Washington Post" is reporting, the president doesn't seem to be passing this current moral authority test either.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Just remember, the administration has decided that we are all in with Saudi Arabia as a check against Iran in the Middle East. With all respect to this terrible situation regarding what happened in Turkey, the Saudi Arabian government is in the process of something like genocide in Yemen, that they are killing thousands of people. There is a possibility of mass starvation in Yemen. Children are dying. So it's not like this is some isolated incident where it's a departure from the way Saudi Arabia usually behaves in international relations. They are killing people with abandon in Yemen.

So the moral character of the Saudi regime, putting aside how they treat their own people in terms of executions, in terms of the treatment of women, is hardly a mystery here.

HILL: Even just, let's strip all of that away for just a minute. And we're talking about we have to get to this mutually agreed upon place. This was 16 days ago that Jamal Khashoggi walked in to that embassy and he never came out. So for 16 days they have been trying to figure out what the facts are and what we do on this?

It's also, there is so much that's been happening for such a long time, as Jeffrey points out, that has not been checked, right, that they have not been called on perhaps in as forceful a way, at least not in this country. This is also a departure. And I wonder how much of that they are trying to deal with. And they are really trying to game and say how much further can we push this? because the U.S. has never really pushed us on anything before, so what is to say this is any different especially when we have been allowed to string people along for more than two weeks.

TOOBIN: That's right. Starting with the president's first international trip, which was to Saudi Arabia, and we know about this, the bromance between the prince and prince Jared Kushner, this is American foreign policy in Saudi Arabia. We are all in with them. We are now discovering the implications of being all in with the regime that has absolutely no respect for human rights.

BERMAN: Hey, Abby, where is Jared Kushner on this, because I thought Jared Kushner was really good friends?

TOOBIN: Witness protection program, I think. BERMAN: But seriously. Jared Kushner is supposed to be the crown

prince whisperer, the guy who has his ear. You would think that he would be the face of the administration's pressure campaign on the Saudis.

PHILLIP: Well, he's falling back. He's fading into the background, at least as far as we can tell publicly, and that's intentional. He wants to step back because there is an understanding on his part and also within the White House that it would be damaging for it to be seen that Jared Kushner was backchanneling with MBS on this situation.

In the early days of this story, one of the first things we learned was that the crown prince had actually called Jared Kushner to talk to him about this situation, to sort of pre-spin the Saudi perspective on this. And on the line was not just Jared Kushner, but the national security adviser John Bolton, a sign early on in this administration that they understood it would be damaging for the Saudis to believe that they could backchannel their way out of this and that this was a very serious situation.

At the same time, people around Kushner are saying he's still involved privately. He's still trying to push the Saudis towards something. But publicly he flew up to New York this week. He wasn't even in the White House at some key moments during this. He did not go to Saudi Arabia with Mike Pompeo, and he's let the State Department take the lead on this because there is a perception problem in this White House when it comes to Jared Kushner who, as everyone knows, does not have expertise in this issue, using a friendship approach to dealing with what is really a foreign policy crisis.

HILL: I do want to shift gears quickly before we end this. And David, I want to get your take on this. As we're looking at all of this play out, there is this new reporting that we have from our team about nine meetings for Paul Manafort and his attorneys over the past just four weeks. It's only been four weeks since that guilty plea with Mueller's team. We're also learning a little bit from Rod Rosenstein who gave this somewhat remarkable interview to "The Wall Street Journal" talking about the investigation, that it was appropriate, that people basically understand and see why they did everything when it comes out. David, politically speaking, what does that do at this point to do that interview and have it come out right now?

[08:10:08] CHALIAN: Yes. It is a very odd moment in the Rosenstein- Trump relationship because clearly there was a big rift, obviously, and then there was a sort of a patching together, at least for the short term. I don't think anybody thinks Rod Rosenstein is part of this administration looking in the long-term here. But those word, Erica, appropriate and independent, and that the American people are going to have full confidence. It is the antithesis of everything Donald Trump has been trying to do as it relates to the Mueller investigation. That's not a witch hunt. That's not a hoax. That's not you can't believe anything Mueller is going to say because I've been hammering away at him for a year and longer. This is the exact words. If Donald Trump could dream up how he doesn't want the Mueller probe perceived, Rod Rosenstein exactly gave him those words in the "Wall Street Journal" interview.

BERMAN: Jeffrey, you are either grunting or smirking in approval, I think?

TOOBIN: As usual, my younger identical twin David Chalian is exactly right. It is completely the opposite of what the president has been saying. And the question is what happens to Jeff Sessions? What happens to Rod Rosenstein? And, thus, what happens to Robert Mueller after the midterms when the president will presumably have a freer hand to dismiss people. And I think Sessions is gone for sure. The president has all but said that.

And under the structure of the special counsel, Rosenstein is the superior, but only because the attorney general is recused. Mueller may have a new boss starting very quickly, and that new boss may do the president's bidding and get rid of him. So things will change. How they will change after the election, that's why we're in the news business. We'll find out.

BERMAN: That and to spend time with people like you. Jeffrey, David, Abby, thank you very much.

HILL: We do want to get some breaking news in the investigation into the disappearance and apparent murder of a "Washington Post" columnist. We are getting newly released surveillance images which capture a Saudi intelligence officer in Istanbul on the day Jamal Khashoggi vanished after entering that Saudi consulate in Istanbul. I want to get straight to CNN's chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward who is live in Ankara with these breaking details. Clarissa?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Erica. So Turkish media has released what it purports to be surveillance photo images of this man. He is one of the infamous 15 Saudi nationals who flew in on the same day as the disappearance of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. What they essentially show, the first one shows him arriving at the consulate just about 9:55 a.m., so just before 10:00 a.m. Then the second image sometime later, about 4:53 p.m., shows him leaving the console general's residence. Presumably the Turkish authorities believe the murder took place in the hours before that second photograph was captured.

The third image from surveillance footage shows him checking out of the Movenpick Hotel in Istanbul. Interesting side note, he had checked in for three days, was expected to stay for three days, but then checked out suddenly in the afternoon. And then the fourth photograph shows him arriving at Istanbul's Ataturk Airport around 6:00 p.m. We then know that he got on the first of two planes that went back to Saudi Arabia.

What's interesting specifically about all of this, Erica, is the man who appears in this surveillance footage. His name is Maher Abdulaziz Mutreb. He is, as you mentioned, a colonel in the intelligence services. He is a former diplomat. But most importantly, he is part of the circle of the crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman. He has been photographed many times with the crown prince. Turkish authorities hear saying they expect their side of the investigation to wrap soon. John?

BERMAN: And again, this is what makes it so stunning that the United States and Saudi Arabia, according to the "Washington Post," looking for a way to explain that doesn't implicate the crown prince when we see pictures of people with clear links to the crown prince. Clarissa Ward, thank you so much for your reporting on this. It is very, very important.

"The New York Times" reports in addition to all of this that U.S. intelligence agencies increasingly convinced that the Saudi crown prince is culpable in Khashoggi's apparent murder. We're going to get reaction from a congressman who met with the crown prince next.

[08:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: In less than two hours, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo will brief President Trump on the apparent murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. It comes as the Trump administration continues to believe or at least to puppet or parrot the Saudi ruler's denials, despite reports that U.S. intelligence is increasingly sure that the crown prince is culpable in murder.

Joining us now is Republican Congressman Scott Taylor, the Congressman who has recently visited with the Saudi rulers joins us now. Congressman, thanks so much for being with us.

The New York Times reports that U.S. intelligence is increasingly convinced that the crown prince is culpable. What do you think?

REP. SCOTT TAYLOR (R), VA: Well I think it remains to be seen at this moment. You know, I'm interested to hear what the secretary has brought back. Obviously he recently visited both Saudi Arabia and Turkey.

I think we should be cautious in terms of waiting to see what comes out of it. You know, I know there's a lot of reporting out there and it doesn't look good, that's for certain. But I think it is important that - that we find out, you know, what happened from the secretary's point of view and from his visit and - and of course coupled with U.S. intelligence in terms of what happens next.

BERMAN: Do you trust the Saudis in their denials this morning?

TAYLOR: I don't think it looks good at this moment, I really don't. But like I said, I want to make sure - I want to - I want to hear from the president. I think it's important also from the - for the executive branch to come to Congress and with - with what they believe happened of course.

I think that's very important because you have bipartisan angst, you have bipartisan outrage quite frankly in Congress about what's going on. So it is important that we hear from the executive branch.

BERMAN: Well we have heard a lot from the president on this. He's been asked about it every day and what he consistently says is that we sent a lot of arms to Saudi Arabia.

[08:20:00]

And that the Saudi denies he knew about it and the crown prince denies he knew about it.

That's what he's been telling us.

TAYLOR: Look - look, it's not that - it's not simple in terms of just the arms. I mean like I - there is a lot more that goes into this, as you very well know. There are a lot of delicate diplomatic relations, there are long term implications.

This is not a - this is not a good situation, this is an international crisis, there's no question about it. But the reality is there are - it's much more than just arm sales with Saudi Arabia.

I mean there's diplomatic ties, there's, you know, allies in the region, there are - there are interests that align with America and our other allies in the region. So I think we have to be a little bit cautious.

I think we do need to hear from the president. I think we need to hear from Secretary Pompeo. I think Congress needs to hear from the executive branch. You know, I know the president has been asked a lot of questions, but he's still waiting for some information as well.

BERMAN: Yes, look, I mean this is absolutely complicated and Saudi Arabia plays a key role in the United States' relationship with a lot of countries in the Middle East and how the United States is trying to position itself against Iran.

I get that. But where do you see human rights playing into this? How important are - should human rights be to the United States?

TAYLOR: It's extremely important, there's no question about it. And they're - look, they're - once we - once we figure out all the details and find out something, I think there should be consequences.

BERMAN: What kind? What kind?

TAYLOR: I think that international pressure -

BERMAN: What kind of - what kind of consequences?

TAYLOR: It's - it is - it is too early for me to say anything at this moment, just to speculate on what kind of - whether it's sanctions or whatever it might be. But I do want to know what happened, I think - I think everyone wants to know what happened.

I think there is international pressure to make sure that there is consequences about this - this violent murder against journalists. And to make sure that this type of thing doesn't happen again on an international stage.

So - but it's just too early for me to say exactly what that - what that looks like and what that is.

BERMAN: When you read in the Washington Post, which is in some ways your local hometown paper, when you read the Washington Post and you see the Post reporting that the White House and the Saudi regime are trying to come up with a mutually agreeable explanation for how this journalist was apparently killed.

What does that say to you? A mutually agreed upon explanation?

TAYLOR: Well I haven't read that specific article, so I just don't - I don't know if that is the case or if that's true or not, you know, I have no idea. But like I said, I want to know the truth. I think it is important for the world to know the truth and there's international pressure to do so.

So I'm looking forward to hearing what the secretary has brought back from his trips and then what - what the next steps are by this White House.

BERMAN: But you wouldn't shut the door on sanctions, would you?

TAYLOR: I think anything's on the table at this point.

BERMAN: And the arms deal, would you take any of that off the table, would you be comfortable continuing to sell them arms if they're in fact ordering the murder of journalists?

TAYLOR: Again, I think anything is on the table at this - at this moment. I want to hear more information and the actual facts, you know, it's irresponsible for us to comment like that right now.

I mean, like I said, there is a lot of - there are a lot of much bigger implications about - with this international crisis.

BERMAN: When you were in Saudi Arabia as part of a (inaudible) not too long ago, what did you take away from your meetings with Saudi leaders?

TAYLOR: Well I think it's important to understand that, you know, I met with MBS and I met with the king as well. It is important to understand that the crown prince has a lot of power there, there's no question about it, and then he has tried to - to reform society in some ways.

But the king sill remains sovereign, you know, the king still has the most power there. So again, when we - when we - when we figure out what - what potentially happened here, we do have to understand that, you know, the king at this moment has the final say for example with the - the potential privatization of Saudi Aramco, which was the crown prince's project that he wanted to see, but the king put the kibosh on that.

So the king, at this moment, is still sovereign there.

BERMAN: You are in the midst of a tough re-election battle in Virginia for you seat, and you're dealing with an investigation into allegations that four of your campaign staffers and advisors forged signatures to get a third part candidate on the ballot in November.

Now no one's accusing you personally of being involved in forging signatures, I want to make that clear, but are you conducting an internal investigation at all into what happened here?

TAYLOR: Well I - you know, obviously I can't responsibly comment on some things, but the reality is that someone did something wrong, they're going to be held accountable and they should be.

And the authorities I have full confidence that truth will completely come out as someone did something wrong and they'll be held accountable for it, and they should.

BERMAN: So on August 6th on a Facebook live broadcast, you said you have my word that if anyone in my campaign did anything that was wrong, that was illegal, that was inappropriate or something like that, I would fire them in a second.

You even said that your closest advisors, who I wouldn't want to fire, but I would. So role call has taken a look at your financial disclosures, and it turns out that up until at least mid September that these four individuals were being investigated, they were still being paid by your campaign.

TAYLOR: So again, I can't completely comment on everything, as you very well know, but the reality is as soon as we found out that anything was wrong, which of course I didn't know about anything that was wrong by anyone on my campaign until it came out that they did.

[08:25:00]

As soon as that happened, we immediately fired senior staff, immediately, and no one who has been involved in that at all is - with any wrongdoing is still in my campaign. So that's as much as I can comment of course because there are legal - there are legal - there is a legal investigation into any wrongdoing from former campaign staff.

BERMAN: And I understand that and again you are not the subject of this investigation, but why is it that they were paid up until a few weeks ago if on August 6th you said they'd be fired immediately?

TAYLOR: John, I know you want to have all the details out there, and that's fine. Like I said, we took action immediately on our campaign to take - to fire senior staff when it happened.

They're no longer - anyone that had any involve - any implication in wrongdoing is with the campaign whatsoever. But we look forward to finishing strong and winning this race.

BERMAN: Congressman Scott Taylor, thanks so much for being with us. We wish you luck in the next I guess 19 days until election day. Appreciate it, sir.

TAYLOR: Looking forward to the election results.

PAUL: Will Julian Castro join what is expected to be a crowded field of Democrats running for president in 2020? Well we're going to ask him next.

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