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Thousands Of Migrants Head North Toward U.S.-Mexico Border; Jared Kushner: White House Still Fact-Finding In Khashoggi's Murder; CNN Reality Check: Supreme Court Shields Wilbur Ross From Questioning. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired October 23, 2018 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[07:30:00] SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST, STAFF WRITER, THE NEW YORKER: -- to President Trump at many of these rallies.

You pointed out Dean Heller, who was very critical of Donald Trump in 2016. When he just came out to appear for him last week, he said everything Donald Trump touches turns to gold.

Many of the tributes are as if he was a central agent autocrat.

And I think for Democrats, however, that has created a real problem and a real conundrum. They don't have anyone with the bully pulpit of the president out there creating a single message for the midterms.

There is a sense that Trump remains able to capture our attention and to create a narrative around the elections that, once again, Democrats are potentially defensive and reacting to.

Even the commentary around the caravan -- what's the effect? The effect is that we're talking about an immigration crisis that arguably does not exist, according to experts. And, Donald Trump wants us to be talking about this immigration crisis at the border right now, two weeks before the election, and that's what we're doing, right?

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Mike, Susan, thank you both very much for your perspectives.

MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR, (R) FORMER CHAIRMAN, HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Thanks for having us.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So what's the reality inside this caravan? Our Bill Weir right in the middle of it, talking to people to get the facts.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: OK.

An estimated 7,500 Central American migrants continue their march through Mexico this morning. Most are making their way on foot through southern Mexico. They are still at least 1,100 miles away from the U.S. border.

[07:35:05] This comes as President Trump tries to characterize them all as criminals.

CNN's Bill Weir is traveling with the caravan in Mexico. He joins us now live with the facts. Bill, tell us your experience.

BILL WEIR, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, friends, from Huixtla, Mexico. We're now about 50 miles inside the southern border and you can see the town square here again. It is sort of an impromptu dormitory for the caravan families huddled together.

You see the candles in the center there. That's a makeshift memorial for yesterday's death on the road. I'll tell you about that here as we try to give you a little sense of what it's like. While America argues over these people, they just put their heads down and keep walking north.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WEIR (voice-over): Another day on the caravan road. Another 25 hard miles under a merciless Mexican sun. Another meal out of the back of a kind stranger's trunk. And for the lucky ones, another ride in a kind stranger's truck packed so tight the tires nearly pop.

On Monday, another man fell to his death on a ride like this, the second confirmed fatality. But, as pregnant women begin to wilt in the heat, many worry they won't be the last.

And yet, as thousands of families try to keep the faith while a full- blown humanitarian crisis moves north, there came another round of insults and threats from the President of the United States.

WEIR (on camera): President Trump thinks that you are an invading band of criminals, possibly terrorists --

PALO, VOLUNTEER, PUEBLO SIN FRONTERAS: Yes.

WEIR: -- and is threatening to use soldiers to keep you out or separate families.

What would you say to him?

PALO, WEIR (translating): We are an honorable people. We are workers. Would he call a group of kids terrorists? A group of women who need help?

We're asking for his support but, of course, we know he has no conscience. He's crazy.

WEIR (voice-over): Palo is a volunteer with an organization called Pueblo Sin Fronteras or Towns Without Borders, formed to help protect migrants and now, a target of conspiracy theorists who refuse to believe that this caravan is fueled only by desperation.

WEIR (on camera): There are some who believe that you are being organized for political reasons or being paid to do this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE, WEIR (translating): There's a lot of people so there could be some with bad intentions. But if you look around, there are lots of mothers with young kids. Why would they want to come here if they weren't so desperate?

WEIR (on camera): President Trump also tweeted that the U.S. will now be cutting off or substantially reducing the foreign aid given to Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador. Those three countries are scheduled to receive less than $200 million next year. And for comparison, a country like Egypt gets about six times that amount.

But, immigration reformers say every little bit helps for these really poor countries and cutting them off only makes this problem that much worse.

So how far will you go today?

WEIR (voice-over): Jose is a taxi driver from Honduras where things were so bad he couldn't afford gasoline to fill his cab. And he has heard of the president's tweets.

WEIR (on camera): He's using the pictures of the big caravan and saying it's a mob of criminals and there's even Middle Eastern, possible terrorists, in there.

JOSE, WEIR (translating): I don't understand why he's saying that, he says. We're not terrorists. Our country is very violent but the people are poor people.

WEIR (on camera): Do you have children -- ninos?

JOSE, WEIR (translating): That's what hurts me the most is I have three kids and I had to leave them behind because there's no job.

WEIR (on camera): When do you think you'll see them again?

JOSE, WEIR (translating): I don't know, he says. It's up to God.

WEIR (on camera): It's hard, yes.

JOSE: Si (crying).

WEIR: Jose, it's OK. Gracias, gracias.

WEIR (voice-over): And so, for a 12th day, they walk through jungles and towards deserts with little more than faith, and hope, and each other.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: Bill, I'm so glad you're speaking to the people who are actually there as opposed to the ones that some are suggesting are there.

And let me ask you -- this is not the first caravan. Historically speaking, how many people who travel in groups like this actually make it all the way to the U.S. border, which is very far from where you are? WEIR: It's very far. I mean, Brownsville, Texas is 1,000 miles. But those who want to go to Tijuana, that's another -- that's 2,000 miles. And they'll probably disperse and decide which way they're going to try to cross.

[07:40:12] But yes, for historical comparison this has been going on for generations.

Twenty years ago the American border patrol was arresting north of a million people a year. Now, it's a third of that. And yes, the family arrests have spiked in the three months since the family separations ended in the summer there.

But this is economics. I mean, if the minimum wage in Canada was $100 an hour, how many of us would be swimming from Detroit to Windsor, right?

So, there's nothing new about this. The only thing that makes this such a sizzling story is the timing of it, right?

And what's interesting is a lot of the Hondurans who left Honduras did so because the president there, supported by Donald Trump, won a very contested election and then really, turned into a strongman. Started cracking down on opposition, stacking the courts with his cronies, and lots of international accusations of corruption there.

And then, as the caravan picks up steam you've got people from other countries saying hey, now's my shot. I'm going to join the safety in numbers. Mexicans are now joining the caravan as it moves north.

And then, of course, to complicate all of this there is a hurricane headed towards Mexico.

And last night, I've got to say I was reading Twitter -- reading responses. There are Americans praying for that hurricane to kill these people. That's where we have come. That's where this rhetoric has led to, John and Alisyn.

But these folks you talk to -- you come down here, you hang out with them, you meet them -- they have nothing. They've offered us their food. They've offered us their water.

CAMEROTA: Bill, it's really helpful to have you on the ground and to hear their motivation and how searing it is for them to leave their families behind. That's just a good perspective for people to hear.

Thank you very much for your reporting.

BERMAN: You know, that's a great point because whatever you think about whether or not they should be allowed to come to the United States, remember, they are human beings. They're human beings --

CAMEROTA: Of course.

BERMAN: -- risking their lives right now. And great on Bill for talking to them and hearing their stories. Along those lines, have you ever heard Jared Kushner's voice? Think about how much we've discussed Jared Kushner over the last two years. Have you ever actually heard him talk out loud?

Well, now, breaking his silence. Our Van Jones with a -- with a really revealing interview with Kushner on all sorts of issues, including issues very much in the news. Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:46:17] BERMAN: So have you ever heard Jared Kushner speak out loud? The president's senior advisor and his son-in-law in the news so much but most us, until yesterday, never heard his voice at all.

Well, he did an interview with our Van Jones on a range of subjects, including his central role in the relationship with Saudi Arabia and where the White House stands on the murder of "Washington Post" journalist Jamal Khashoggi -- listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JARED KUSHNER, SENIOR ADVISOR TO PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I'd say that right now, as an administration, we're more in the fact-finding phase. And we're obviously getting as many facts as we can from the different places and that will determine which facts are credible.

And then after that, the president and the Secretary of State will make a determination as to what we deem to be credible and what actions we think we should take.

I'll also say that we have to be able to work with our allies and Saudi Arabia has been, I think, a very strong ally.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right. Joining us now, Van Jones, host of "THE VAN JONES SHOW," who procured that really interesting interview with Jared Kushner.

You've worked with Jared on prison reform, which we'll get to in a second.

A lot of things to ask you about here.

But first, on the small issue or big issue, but the specific issue of Saudi Arabia there. I think Jared made crystal clear where the White House is on this, which is that Saudi Arabia is our ally. We have to work with them. In other words, we're moving past this Khashoggi thing, if not already, as soon as we can.

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, HOST, "THE VAN JONES SHOW": Yes. I didn't get any indication that they were planning on doing any kind of strategic reset. I spent seven minutes trying to figure out, you know --

But what we did learn, he acknowledged that he is still in communication with MBS and he's advising MBS -- that is advising the president, though he didn't confirm any of the reporting out there.

I thought it was just important to just let the man talk -- just to hear how his mind works. What's in his heart? How does he deal with this massive portfolio that he's got that includes criminal justice reform, trade, the Middle East?

You know, sometimes he gets called -- what do they call it -- the secretary of everything? And I thought it was important for somebody with that much power and influence to be -- to be heard from in full and fulsomely about such important stuff.

CAMEROTA: So what did you take away from this? Is Jared -- I mean, because Jared Kushner is such an enigma to so many of us, is he up to that panoply of issues and Middle East peace, et cetera?

JONES: Hey, listen, I have gotten a chance to work with him on prison reform and criminal justice issues. You know, that's been a passion of mine for 25 years. His father went to prison so it's something that we both care about.

I've always said where you disagree you should fight hard. The way you do agree in America and you should work hard. So we've found that one area and we've worked hard on it. So I've seen him a little bit behind the veil.

Nikki Haley said this guy is a hidden genius. I think she's right on both counts. He has an ability to kind of get non-emotional, get very analytical, get very determined, and get things to happen.

What I was trying to get him to show -- which I think he did show -- his style of leadership is not the traditional style in America -- what I call megaphone leadership where you're broadcasting your ideas, you're trying to get a big constituency.

He's not a megaphone leader, he's a cell phone leader. He narrowcasts. He tries to find an individual that he can work with and when it works out well he gets a trade deal done. If it works out badly, it's MBS.

But there's a style of leadership that he has that is baffling to most people and I want him to kind of pull back the onion skin on that a little bit, and I think that he did.

It was extraordinary to hear him talking in public because I've been working with him on prison reform for about a year. I very rarely see him talk that long about anything to anyone, let alone on national television.

[07:50:08] BERMAN: Let's hear him talk a little bit more. Let's do prison reform because that's the issue that you worked with him so closely on. Listen to what he says on that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KUSHNER: And somebody in the meeting said to him -- you know, when you campaigned, you said that you were going to fight for the forgotten men and women of this country, and there's nobody more forgotten or underrepresented than people in prison.

And look, I talk to the president all the time and I know sometimes I might tell him something and he's listening but he's not really wanting to listen to me. I know when he's listening to me and it penetrates.

I could tell right then that that really hit him in his heart. And since then, he's actually spent a lot of time on the issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: First of all, admitting that a lot of times he advises the president and the president is not listening to him at all, which is interesting --

JONES: Yes.

BERMAN: -- given how many people say how come Jared and Ivanka aren't doing X or Y or Z in the White House.

But then, prison reform. He thinks the president really does care about this. And to an extent, Jared has pushed for this over the attorney general --

JONES: Yes.

BERMAN: -- the objections of the attorney general.

JONES: And others. I don't think Kelly has been a huge fan of this. Certainly, Stephen Miller's not a huge fan of this. And so he's been determined and had to overcome obstacles.

But I -- you know, if you remember where President Trump started out with American carnage and that whole kind of thing, President Trump has moved to a place where he has publicly endorsed the prison reform effort that Jared's behind and even endorsed some possible sentencing reform, which is not just making the prisons better but having fewer people in them.

That's a testament to the determination of Jared Kushner and really, nobody else.

CAMEROTA: A really fascinating man.

JONES: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Thank you very much for sharing that.

BERMAN: Can I ask one more thing?

JONES: Yes.

BERMAN: Just to be clear because I know you have a lot of people -- progressives who look to you and say like, how can you be working with Jared Kushner?

Do you want him to have a job in the White House in 2021?

JONES: No. In fact, the funny part about it -- even in the interview I said well, I was looking forward to giving you a new job in 2020.

Like, I mean, you -- in America, you should be able to say listen, on Tuesday, I'm voting against you to get you out of here and on Wednesday, whoever's in power, let's work together to help the people who have nothing. Like, those two things used to go together quite well in America and I hope it comes back.

BERMAN: Van Jones, great to have you here. Thanks, Van.

CAMEROTA: Thanks, Van.

You can watch Van's entire interview with Jared Kushner on "THE VAN JONES SHOW" on Saturday, 7:00 p.m. eastern, right here on CNN.

BERMAN: All right.

President Trump's imprint on the Supreme Court already helping him out in a big way. A CNN "Reality Check," next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:55:58] CAMEROTA: President Trump's Supreme Court revamp is already paying him dividends with one of his picks shielding a key cabinet secretary from testifying under oath about what documents appeared to show was a lie.

Here to explain all of this, we have CNN senior political analyst John Avlon with an important update to our "Reality Check" -- John.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: That's right, Ali.

So, last night, the Supreme Court gave Commerce Sec. Wilbur Ross a pass, allowing him to avoid testifying, at least for now, in a lawsuit over a 2020 census question, amid overwhelming evidence that Ross misled Congress.

Now, opponents say the question about citizenship was designed to depress responses from immigrant populations and therefore, undercount residents to gain partisan advantage.

Ross said it all the Justice Department's idea. But as we told you in a recent "Reality Check," e-mails brought to light in a lawsuit from the New York attorney general show that this just isn't true.

Ross discussed the census question with Steve Bannon and Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach. That would be Trump's one-time vote fraud czar now running for governor.

Now, faced with that inconvenient truth, the Trump administration asked the Supreme Court to step in and block a lower court's order that Ross explain himself under oath. The court came through for Trump big time, shielding Ross from testifying. And the order was written by Trump's first Supreme Court pick, Neil Gorsuch. Now, the case will go forward. It's slated to begin November fifth, but without Wilbur Ross.

But this case is about far more than one Trump cabinet member's honesty in front of Congress. It's about attempts to give Republicans an artificial edge in redistricting by undercounting undocumented immigrants in the census despite a constitutional requirement that all residents, not just citizens, be counted.

It's a pattern we're seeing in the midterms, already.

This past weekend, President Trump again raised the Spector of voter fraud in a tweet. Quote, "All levels of government and law enforcement are watching carefully for voter fraud, including during early voting. Cheat at your own peril."

But obviously, we all want fair, honest elections but critics charge this was a fear-based attempt to suppress midterm turnout. After all, study after study has found that voter fraud is virtually non-existent despite the president's repeated claims.

But here's the good news. Redistricting reform is on the ballot in four states this November -- Michigan, Colorado, Missouri, and Utah. The ballot initiatives of each state vary slightly but they share the goal of ending the rigged system of redistricting, where politicians carve up seats in ways that often lead to intentionally unrepresentative results.

For example, e-mails in a Michigan court case show Republicans, in 2011, drawing the congressional lines to create a nine to five majority regardless of the popular vote, while cramming what they've called "Dem garbage" into four urban districts.

Make no mistake, partisans from both parties have played this game, but there's a fix. Take redistricting from self-interested legislators in favor of independent commissions and statistic-proven models. Change the rules, you change the game.

So while the Supreme Court seems all too willing to shield a Trump cabinet member, voters in four states will have a chance to unrig the system for themselves this fall.

And that's your "Reality Check."

CAMEROTA: That's great John, giving people how to empower themselves instead of feel helpless if they do.

AVLON: That's right.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

BERMAN: And very interesting also seeing the impacts of some of the decisions made already.

All right -- the president's midterm strategy. Why is he saying what he is saying? In some cases, saying things that are not true. Let's get to it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What he's doing this week is just making things up. His strategy seems to be just flood the zone with nonsense.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They're going to find MS-13, they're going to find Middle Eastern. We're not allowing them in our country.

WEIR: It's ludicrous. It would be funny if it wasn't so insulting to this human tragedy we're seeing.

SEN. JEFF FLAKE (R), ARIZONA: It's long been a canard and a fear tactic. He does it, I think, because it still works.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even if this group is 10,000 Latin American Mother Theresa's that still doesn't mean that it is OK.

AVLON: Voter fraud is minuscule and yet, the president keeps returning to it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here is a hugely powerful motivator. Don't underestimate it working.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

BERMAN: All right, good morning, everyone. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Tuesday, October 23rd, 8:00 in the east.

I want to show you the big headline in "The Washington Post" this morning. "Trump and Republicans settle on fear and falsehoods as a midterm strategy."