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CNN TONIGHT

Trump Organization Kicked 18 Undocumented Immigrants; Virginia Governor Not Resigning Over Controversy; Governor Ralph Northam Fighting For His Job; Interview With Rep. Karen Bass (D-CA); Donald Trump's Leaked Schedule Deemed As Unstructured Executive Time. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired February 4, 2019 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

[22:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: I've been harping on this. We are not talking about the real -- the fundamentals and the actual that are happening when it comes to a barrier on when it comes to a barrier on the border and how previous administrations had already put into place new barriers, fixing up the old barriers, putting barriers in places where they haven't been before.

What he wants in large part is already happening and was earmarked and put into place by previous administrations, both Democratic and Republican.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Yes, it's true. It's a little bit of play with this. We'll give you money to repair what's there and all this, but no new wall.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Listen, the men and women that I talk to who are in the business of keeping us safe, whom I trust, need more. There are areas that need more physical barriers. I believe that.

LEMON: Don't disagree, but that's already been put into place. But go on.

CUOMO: Some of it.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Some of it has not, and that's a legitimate political debate. How much and where, and where does it fit in our priority scheme? That's politics. That's government. Fight about it. The president has created a perversity here. He has made it all about the wall and keeps telling people we're a wall away from fixing problems that a wall won't fix.

LEMON: Nope.

CUOMO: So, it's on him. And Rick Santorum argued very vehemently tonight, well, he's got a very intricate plan. There's lots of things on the table. It's not just a wall. All that's -- (CROSSTALK)

LEMON: He doesn't talk about any of that.

CUOMO: That's B.S. It may be on paper. It doesn't come out of his mouth. And even tomorrow night -- and, look, I hope I'm wrong about this. I hope he flips the script tomorrow night and says the biggest drug bust we ever had recently was the fentanyl and they got it at the port of entry, and they did it by X-raying the truck, and we need more X-ray. Good. Because at least they'll be saying what the men and women who keep us safe say instead of putting them in a corner of having a beef for a wall that they don't see as a panacea because it isn't.

LEMON: Yes. Well, what if Mexico decides to build stairs or a ladder on the other side of the wall?

CUOMO: I thought you were going to say, what if they decide to pay for it? I was like, man, what I love getting at it's on my face.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: We'll just build a stairway. We'll build a bridge over the wall. What do you do?

CUOMO: What would I -- what would we do?

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: What if they have decided, you know those big stairs on the other side of the wall. You know those big staircases you see that go over the interstates?

CUOMO: Sure.

LEMON: Like over --

CUOMO: I don't think that that would ever happen, of course, because, you know, look, they have been by all accounts, by the people I've talked to, a very willing partner in trying to start interdiction, to find ways to stop people from illegally entering and all that other stuff. But they don't love this president. That's for sure.

LEMON: Never thought about that, right? maybe --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: You crack yourself up.

LEMON: Maybe the government does it. Maybe it's just people there. They say, we'll just build some stairs and then what are you going to do.

CUOMO: Well, look, you can't build anything high enough that will stop a ladder from getting there, although getting down the other side will take some coordination. And you can always dig under it. But their point is -- LEMON: Don't use a pulley and you could put a mattress. You could put

a --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: yes. Look, there's always a way over it. Their point is that if you do it the right way, it is a deterrent.

LEMON: Yes. I don't disagree with that. I think that's right.

CUOMO: And that's fine. But, look, El Chapo -- I think Bakari Sellers I think he was talking about a different drug kingpin, but El Chapo is on trial. He was the tunnel man.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: I had to go into a couple of those damn tunnels.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You've been in those tunnels.

CUOMO: Yes. It was terrible.

LEMON: Air-conditioned room.

CUOMO: Because he's a small dude. No, man. They were miserable. One of them was under his bathtub in one of his many getaway houses went down --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Not just that tunnel. I'm talking about there are tunnels there that are air-conditioned.

CUOMO: Well, some of them they have for major trafficking.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: But he had all of these escape tunnels. He was a real tunnel psycho. He had different tunnels. The point is the drug cartels find lots of creative ways to get stuff across the border.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: A wall is not the answer. It's part of a broader solution, but we've just got to stop hiding from the B.S. This president made it everything because it's everything to him and his promise, not to the facts.

LEMON: Yes. He's got to do it or he's in big trouble.

CUOMO: I don't even know that he's in such big trouble. I think his base would forgive it because he tried.

LEMON: Or he -- what I said to you in the beginning is that this was already in place. All he had to do was just show people what was already being done and pretend it's his.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: He is doing it. He already describes what was cement with rebar and all that. Now he's describing the bollard fencing.

LEMON: Yes. I hate -- let's talk about this because you weren't here when we discussed this on Friday, and you cut on -- even though we invited you to hang out with us yesterday. But that's OK. I get it.

CUOMO: I was looking at houses now that I have to move for security concerns.

LEMON: Don't talk to people about that.

CUOMO: I'm just saying from you. You're the threat.

LEMON: OK.

CUOMO: Go ahead.

LEMON: OK. Let me give your address right now. No, no, no.

CUOMO: Please. Seems to be easy to get.

LEMON: I was looking forward to talking to you in person about this -- speaking to you in person about this yesterday.

CUOMO: What have you got?

LEMON: We were talking about the friend of Northam that you just interviewed --

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: -- the whole controversy. And you know, I can't imagine if that happened, we were in school about the same time. I'm a little bit older than you. But can you imagine like a friend not calling you up and saying, hey, Chris, you know they put on your page like two people who are, one has a Klan uniform and one has a blackface.

[22:05:02] Like, don't you think someone in the class or somebody would have alerted him because he's saying he doesn't know. Like, hey, Don, guess what? Someone on your page -- I think someone would know about that. That's pretty offensive.

CUOMO: Yes. I think so. Look, and I said this to her. I thought Sandra -- Savage made a very interesting argument for people. She's known him a long time. She's a proud African-American. She wouldn't back a guy she thinks is a bigot. I hear her. She knows him in a way I never will. I get it.

But he has not handled it well. You know what's on yearbook page. You put it there. And unless he's got proof that someone set him up and he didn't that all these years he's got a problem with that.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And he didn't own it. If that were on my page, I'd say, I don't know how it got there, but it is not me. I'm not in that picture. I don't know what it is.

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: He didn't say that either.

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: He apologized for it. So, he didn't handle it in a way that an innocent man would, and then you get the whole secondary analysis of how big a deal should it be.

LEMON: Yes. Well, listen, being a bigot doesn't necessarily -- there's also unconscious bias which we talk about a lot, and people want to deny. Just because -- you don't have to be aware of it. Sometimes it's just not being aware.

CUOMO: Blackface?

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: KKK outfit?

LEMON: No, I'm just saying but sometimes it's not -- I'm talking about the friend who is saying, well, I know he's not a bigot. Maybe he's not a bigot now. But certainly, in that time, he should have been aware that this was offensive, and he could have over the years at least take -- at least made the effort to address it.

CUOMO: What about the defense that in '84 --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: And to repair that.

CUOMO: -- it wasn't -- it wasn't bad, blackface, the way it is today.

LEMON: Really? I almost said a bad word.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: That's what they're offering up.

LEMON: It started with bull.

CUOMO: All right.

LEMON: That's bull.

CUOMO: Listen, I think he's got a problem.

LEMON: I have people sending me yearbook pictures from Louisiana, from the '70s and '80s saying, look, this was from Lehigh high school. I'm not saying this was from --

CUOMO: Right, right.

LEMON: -- you know, this high. I say, look at this. And I say well send me the full link so I can authenticate it. And they say it's on Facebook, whatever. But having grown up in that time, I know that there are people who did the same thing. I know that there were fraternities who would have parties and there would be blackface at parties. So, for anyone to pretend that it didn't happen then or people didn't think that it was --

CUOMO: It's weak.

LEMON: That is a complete, a completely weak argument.

CUOMO: I don't disagree.

LEMON: And for the friend I respect the friend. Fine. It's the same thing where people say they support the president, right, because we're friends, and I know they wouldn't do that. But it doesn't mean it's the right thing.

CUOMO: I agree with you.

LEMON: And just because you are a friend of someone or just because you have made amends doesn't mean that you should be a public servant. Public servants are held to higher standards.

CUOMO: Absolutely.

LEMON: So, if you want to be a friend to him, you believe in him, good. Tell him to step down. That's what the Democratic Party is saying, most people are saying, step down and be a friend with him. Go out into the community and see how he repairs the relationship. Go to church and go play golf with them, go fishing with them.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: He says, if I step down now, I'll never get my good name back. That's what he says, if I leave now, I'll never get my good name back.

LEMON: I don't disagree with that, but I think that may be too late. I think the damage has already been done.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: What happens if he sticks it out? A week from today, you think we're still talking about this, assuming he doesn't step down?

LEMON: Do I think we're still talking about it? I do think we're still talking about it, not in the same way. I think it's going to be the process to remove him from office that we'll be talking about.

CUOMO: I don't think they can remove him.

LEMON: Well, I'm sure they'll try. CUOMO: I don't know how. I mean, the only way would be impeachment.

LEMON: Well --

CUOMO: It has to be something you did while in office, and it has to be an abuse of your power, you know.

LEMON: I don't know the laws, but I think on Anderson last week, someone was giving the case of how they could remove him from office. So, I don't know. I think -- I do think we'll be talking about it. Obviously, things go off the front page or don't become the lead stories anymore.

CUOMO: True.

LEMON: But I do think that we will still be talking about it.

CUOMO: What I like what you said about it. I wasn't on with you but I read it because I'm that type of devoted friend and colleague. You said, hey, I'll tell you what I don't want to see is the Democrats having a double standard for when it's one of their own versus somebody else.

LEMON: They did.

CUOMO: You certainly didn't. You came guns blazing, and you should have.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And I think that's interesting. I think you could make an argument that do the Democrats go after their own with too much animus in these situations, and are some Democrats trying to make their name off others in these moments like we saw with Franken or are they making the case that they are a party of accountability when it comes to these type of culturally correct behaviors --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- and they're going to stand on it every time, zero tolerance, no matter how much they like the person.

LEMON: I understand that in this day and time, we have to be careful about race relations, and I'm going to step down because I think it's for the good of the people of Virginia, and it's also good for race relations in this country.

I will do everything I have to within my power to make it up, and if at some point I can become a public servant again, I will do that, and I hope the people will forgive me and go along with me on my journey. End of story. I got to go. OK?

[22:10:00] Thank you, sir. Good to see you.

CUOMO: That was compelling.

LEMON: Yes, but that is how you should handle it.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. And we've got a lot to talk about. Chris and I talked about it a little bit there. We've got to talk about racism. We've got to talk about how it infects this country. We've got to talk about how to confront it. We've got to talk about Virginia Governor Ralph Northam, who a source tells CNN fears that he would be labeled a racist for life if he steps down.

The governor who when this undeniably racist photo from this yearbook page came to light, this is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RALPH NORTHAM, (D) VIRGINIA: That photo and the racist and offensive attitudes it represents does not reflect that person I am today or the way that I have conducted myself as a soldier, a doctor, and a public servant. I am deeply sorry. I cannot change the decisions I made nor can I undo the harm my behavior caused then and today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: You heard that. That was in his own words. He said those words, and then the reaction, the media reaction, everyone reacted. He admitted to it. But then less than 24 hours later, Governor Northam completely changes his story, saying that, hey, he doesn't remember the picture, insisting he's not the person in the blackface or the one in the KKK robes for that matter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NORTHAM: I would remember that, and I have no recollection at all. It's not my picture. I was not in that costume either as blackface or as KKK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Both stories can't be true. You cannot believe both stories Governor Northam tells you. And you've got to wonder about a man who, while denying he had anything to do with one racist blackface incident, admits to another one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NORTHAM: I dressed up in -- what's his name? Michael Jackson -- excuse me. That's why I have Pam with me. I had the shoes. I had a glove, and I used just a little bit of shoe polish to put under my -- or on my cheeks. It was a dance contest. I had always liked Michael Jackson. I actually won the contest because I had learned how to do the moonwalk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I know he's got a lot on his mind, but he's paying homage to Michael Jackson. He really likes him, but he can't remember his name. And let's all be grateful to the governor's wife, Pam Northam, for stopping him when he looked like he was considering demonstrating his moonwalking skills, his moonwalking prowess for reporters and the TV audience. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you still able to moonwalk?

PAM NORTHAM, GOVERNOR NORTHAM'S WIFE: Inappropriate circumstances.

R. NORTHAM: My wife says inappropriate circumstances.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Inappropriate. Wow, that is the least of it. So, the governor does remember putting on blackface as Michael Jackson, but he doesn't remember putting on blackface or KKK robes in his med school yearbook. And what about his picture in the Virginia Military Institute yearbook, the one captioned with the racial slur coon man, an ugly word? And I hate that we have to use it. But you need to know the facts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

R. NORTHAM: There were two individuals, as best I can recollect, at VMI. They were a year ahead of me. They called me coon man. I don't know their motives or intent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And as Governor Northam battles for his political life now, Lieutenant Governor Justin Fairfax, the man who would replace him if he were to resign, is calling a sexual assault allegation against him a totally fabricated story out of the blue, a story that was published on the same right-wing web site that broke the story of that racist photo in Ralph Northam's yearbook.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GOV. JUSTIN FAIRFAX, (D) VIRGINIA: Does anybody think it's any coincidence on the eve of potentially my being elevated that that's when this uncorroborated smear comes out?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Lieutenant governor was asked whether he thinks Governor Northam was behind the allegation, he said, he has no information in that regard.

But all this leads us back to the big question. Why would Governor Northam contradict what he'd said less than 24 hours before? Why would he think that he could just explain away what we've seen with our own eyes or heard with our own ears? Why would he think that could work? I think it's very simple. It does work. It worked over and over and over when Donald Trump was on tape saying this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[22:14:58] DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I've got to use some Tic-Tac just in case I start kissing her. You know, I'm automatically attracted to beautiful. I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. You just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whatever you want.

TRUMP: Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, he at first offered an apology.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I said it. I was wrong, and I apologize.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Then just two days later, he dismissed the whole thing as locker room talk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I don't think you understood what was -- this was locker room talk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Less than a month later, Donald Trump won the election, and shortly after his victory, he reportedly began questioning whether it was his voice on the tape after all, even though he apologized for it.

Ralph Northam's strategy is straight out of the Trump playbook, just double down, triple down. Wait for the storm to pass. Wait for the next big story to push this scandal out of the headlines. It is a strategy that has worked for the president. But the question is will it work this time?

Much, much more on the Governor Northam story tonight to tell you about. Plus, two major stories tonight that is really pertaining to the president, his inauguration, and his company, OK? Breaking news on that.

We're learning his inaugural committee has been subpoenaed by federal prosecutors, and the Washington Post is reporting that his golf courses have fired at least 18 undocumented workers. Ryan Lizza is here. Max Boot is here as well. We're going to talk about that, all the news next.

[22:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, two big breaking news stories tonight, both of them close to the president. Federal prosecutors in New York subpoenaing the Trump inaugural committee tonight as we're learning that the Trump Organization has fired at least 18 undocumented workers from five golf courses over the past two months. Ryan Lizza is here. Also, Max Boot, the author of "The Corrosion of Conservatism: Why I Left the Right." Gentlemen, good evening. I want to start with the SDNY issuing this subpoena to the president's inaugural committee. Can you give me the significance, Max, of this investigation?

MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, it's potentially hugely significant because we know that the Trump inaugural committee, Don, raised and spent over $107 million, about twice what President Obama spent on his inauguration, and it's not clear where the money came from or where it went.

Only about 60 percent of it has been accounted for. And if you read the CNN story, what it suggests is that there are massive questions about all that spending because the allegations include false statements, mail and wire fraud, money laundering, disclosure violations, laws prohibiting contributions by foreign nations.

There's a lot of suspicion that foreign individuals in particular who were trying to curry favor with the Trump administration gave a lot of money to the inaugural committee. And so, you have to add this to the growing pile of investigations that are after President Trump and the various entities that he's associated with. There's been nothing like this in history. There are more law enforcement investigations of this president than any other president in our history.

LEMON: Go ahead, Ryan.

RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, one point is, you know, as we've all been paying attention to the Mueller investigation, right, and the special counsel, some lawyers have been arguing that SDNY is the more serious threat to Trump. And this is a dramatic development that underscores that point.

LEMON: Well, that was going to be my question to you. I just wanted to get you to weigh in, but you made the point.

LIZZA: Yes.

LEMON: It's that, you know, this is same place, the SDNY, where Michael Cohen pled guilty, right?

LIZZA: Yes.

LEMON: The SDNY continues to be a thorn in this president's side.

LIZZA: Because they appear to be looking at things that are unrelated to Russia but that are related to a whole constellation of Trump Organization and Trump inaugural issues that either the special counsel has sort of pushed off on them because he didn't think it was part of his core investigation.

But, you know, there have been a lot of lawyers, including George Conway, the wife of -- excuse me, the husband of Kellyanne Conway, who have been arguing that this is the danger for Donald Trump. It's SDNY. It's SDNY, not the special counsel because at the end of the day, the collusion bar won't be reached in that investigation. So -- and this underscores that.

LEMON: Timing is everything here, because especially when it comes to the State of the Union, which will be held tomorrow night, and what the Washington Post is reporting, another story about the Trump Organization, the breaking news story.

The Washington Post is reporting that the Trump Organization has fired at least, Max, 18 undocumented workers from five golf courses in New York and New Jersey, in the New York and New Jersey area, over the past two months. If this is true, hypocrisy much, hypocritical much?

BOOT: I mean this is hypocrisy on steroids, Don. I mean, this is a president who has built his entire campaign and presidency on demonizing undocumented immigrants. And of course, now we know that he makes ample use of undocumented immigrants on his own properties.

I mean, in truth we actually knew this before because we knew that when he built Trump tower in New York City, he did it with undocumented workers from Poland and other places. Now we're seeing the extent to which he uses undocumented workers, housekeepers and the like, in his hotels.

I mean, this is so disgusting, so repulsive, that he is demonizing people and then exploiting them at the same time. This is, you know, something that only Donald Trump would be capable of just the shamelessness of it is staggering.

LEMON: CNN reached out to the Trump Organization for comment or confirmation. We have not gotten back to them. But I'm just wondering why this is happening now because apparently according to "The Washington Post," these people have been working for the Trump Organization for years.

LIZZA: For years? Well, there's been some investigative reporting, right, that has stepped up that has documented the number of undocumented citizens that are working at these organizations, and I think the Trump Organization just decided they couldn't deal with the hypocrisy anymore

Look, everyone knows you scratch the surface in the service industry in the construction industry --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Wait. Stand by because I have a statement. I've just been told -- well, I have it. It says, below is the Trump Organization statement in "The Washington Post" 18 undocumented -- 18 undocumented workers. It says "we are very proud of our diverse workforce. Our associates mean everything to us -- It just jumped. Hold on. "Our associates mean everything to us. We also take -- let's see. This changed.

[22:25:00] "Our associates mean everything to us and are the heart and soul of our company. We also take our obligations as an employer seriously and regularly conduct audits to ensure full and complete compliance with all legal requirements." And then they said, "Last month the press reported on two individuals who had allegedly falsified documents to gain employment at one of our golf courses. Upon learning of these claims, we immediately initiated a comprehensive review of employee eligibility all across of our property as a result of this review and to ensure our absolute compliance with the law, any employee who provided falsified documents was immediately terminated.

Obviously, terminating one's employment is never something we wish to do. Many of our employees have been with us for years and are an extension of our family. Still after being confronted with the issue, we had no choice -- we had no choice. To prevent this from happening again, we will soon be instituting E-Verify to all applicable properties and will continue to take swift and appropriate action where necessary."

And that's from a spokesman for the Trump Organization. Sorry.

LIZZA: First of all --

LEMON: My phone jumped to the next page, and I had to go back.

LIZZA: If you're a hard-liner on immigration the way Donald trump is, the idea that you weren't using E-Verify in your companies is absurd. E-Verify is the voluntary system. You're not force to do it, but it is the system that will catch an undocumented worker if they're using a false document, right? The way it works --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You notice how many times they mentioned falsified documents.

LIZZA: Yes. And look, I think this is a sticky issue for the press. I've done reporting on this as well. When you are reporting on undocumented workers, you're thrusting them into the national limelight, and as a result of that reporting, they're being fired. You know, it's a very -- it's a very tricky issue for us.

BOOT: It's a heartbreaking thing, but you did have these very courageous housekeepers who came forward and talked to "The New York Times" --

LIZZA: Yes.

BOOT: -- and said that they were undocumented. And that whole statement is nonsense because what they were saying is the management of the Trump organization was colluding with them to get them to work there despite their lack of legal working papers, that this was a conspiracy on the part of the Trump Organization and that people fairly high up actually knew that this was going on. So, they weren't being fooled by these employees.

LIZZA: This is our system.

BOOT: Right.

LIZZA: This is the immigration system in this country.

LEMON: Yes.

LIZZA: It's a conspiracy of silence. The employers know the documents are fake. It's don't ask, don't tell. That's why they don't use E- Verify. If they really care they would have been using E-Verify.

LEMON: Yes. Thank you, both. I appreciate it. We'll continue to discuss this.

With more and more members of his own party calling Virginia Governor Ralph Northam to resign, calling on him to resign. Is the scandal hurting the Democratic Party? I'm going to ask the chair of the Congressional Black Caucus, Congresswoman Karen Bass.

[22:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Virginia Governor Ralph Northam is fighting for his job tonight after doing a complete 180 on why this racist photo was in his medical school yearbook. Northam now says the photo is not him.

But a member of the 1984 East Virginia Medical School Yearbook staff tells CNN the photos were chosen by each individual student and submitted in a sealed envelope with the student's name on it and kept in a locked room, which raises more questions about the governor's claim that the photo is not him.

Joining me now Democratic Congresswoman Karen Bass of California, she is the Chair of the Congressional Black Caucus. Congresswoman, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.

REP. KAREN BASS (D), CALIFORNIA: Thanks for having me on.

LEMON: Let's talk about Governor Northam. He shows no signs of backing down. He says that he wants to clear his name. Is there anything he could do to change your position that he must go, he must resign?

BASS: Oh, no, no, no. I think that every day that passes, it's even more reason that he should step down. He says he does not want to leave office because then that would indicate that he was racist. To stay in office and to continue this pain really shows that he does not understand the significance of what has happened here.

LEMON: So I have heard that this, you know, whole question this morning that what is -- is there forgiveness? Can one be rehabilitated?

BASS: Sure. You know, the thing is that this happened a long time ago. And when he decided to enter public life -- you know, I hear that he belongs to an African-American church. And you and I know that he could have gone to the ministers. He could have said, you know what, when I was younger, I did something that I am very ashamed of. And I really want to apologize. And I need to tell you about it.

He essentially hid this. He could have come clean. He could have asked for forgiveness years ago. He chose not to do this. He just got busted. That's all.

LEMON: Well, he's saying he didn't know about it. Is that plausible to you?

BASS: That's just not credible at all.

LEMON: Yeah.

BASS: How do you one day say, this was me. I am sorry. I take responsibility. And the next day say, no, it actually wasn't.

LEMON: Yeah.

BASS: And then to say -- but yet the same year, I did do blackface. But that was Michael Jackson. And I am hoping that people understand the difference of imitating Michael Jackson and blackface and standing in a picture next to a KKK person in blackface. There's no difference.

LEMON: Representative, you know, Democrats have been drawing a clear distinction with President Trump over issues of race. Do you think this controversy surrounding the governor could hurt the Democratic Party?

BASS: Well, no, I don't think it should at all because it's really showing that we are consistent. You know, I mean we called for Steve King to be kicked out of the Republican Party and be removed from his committees. Now, this is an incident with a Democrat.

LEMON: Yeah.

BASS: And we're taking the same stand. So to me, it shows that we are not hypocritical. We are consistent. And really, the only way to begin healing in Virginia is for him to step aside. He doesn't have the confidence of his legislature, so how can he assume the executive position in that state?

LEMON: It is interesting. Unlike things that have happened in the recent past, there has been pretty much unanimous condemnation from Democrats on this one at the highest levels. Virginia's Lieutenant Governor, Justin Fairfax, a man who would assume the governorship if Northam does step down, is now facing an allegation that he sexually assaulted a woman in 2004.

He says the reports are false, saying the encounter described was 100 percent consensual. Do you have concern about this?

BASS: Well, you know, I mean I think any allegation should be investigated. But one of the things that I think shouldn't happen, and that is saying, well, now there's some questions about the lieutenant governor, so we should leave the governor in place. I think these are two completely separate issues. I think they are both serious, but they are completely separate. And it does not shield the governor from needing to step down.

[22:34:57] LEMON: Representative, President Trump was asked this weekend about a CBS News poll that shows 63 percent of Americans say they disapprove of how he is handling race issues. Here's how he responded.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The African-Americans have the best employment numbers in the history of our country. So I think I have been given a lot of credit for that. And in terms of race, a lot of people are saying, well, this is something very special, what's happening.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So because when colleagues of yours, even like Republican Senator Tim Scott, he said Donald Trump is not racist, but he said you're racially insensitive.

TRUMP: Well, I have a great relationship with Tim and certainly with his state, South Carolina. And -- where we do very well, and I think if you look at the numbers for African-American unemployment, best numbers they've had, literally the best numbers they've had in history. And I think they like me a lot and I like them a lot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Go on.

BASS: Well, let me just tell you that we just finished in the Congressional Black Caucus doing a poll. And if he thinks he has support in the African-American community, let me tell you, it is in the low single digits. It is so offensive to me when he talks about the employment rate in the African-American population. He had nothing to do with that.

It's not as though he had some jobs program and that led to a decrease in African-American unemployment. If he wants to give credit anywhere, he needs to give credit to the Obama administration that kept us from having a disaster in our economy. And the economy was getting much better when he took office. He had absolutely nothing to do with the African-American employment.

And he needs to stop using that to say that he's in love with African- Americans. It's silly, and it's offensive.

LEMON: Thank you, Congresswoman. I appreciate your time.

BASS: Thank you.

LEMON: Governor Northam is just the latest public figure to be haunted by something from his past. We'll talk about when it's right to forgive and when it's right to hold a person accountable for their actions.

[22:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: A senior adviser to Ralph Northam says the Virginia governor is weighing his options tonight. He says it's an emotionally painful time for the governor as he fights for his political life after this racist photo of his medical school yearbook page came to light.

Let's discuss now. Pastor Steve Peacock of the Victory Life Fellowship in Portsmouth, Virginia joins us. Also Reverend Kevin Chandler, he is the President of the Virginia State Conference NAACP. I appreciate both of you joining us, gentlemen. Thank you so much.

Pastor Peacock, I am going to start with you. You say Governor Northam should stay in his position, make this a teachable moment about race. How can he do that?

PASTOR STEVE PEACOCK, VICTORY LIFE FELLOWSHIP: Well, you know, when I look at the situation that he is facing and hear what everyone is saying and speaking about the governor, I -- when I reason in my recollection about what the governor has done and what has surfaced on this Friday -- past Friday, you know, and it happened when he was 25, his mid-20s.

I am saying, well, at that point and at the point where we are today, there is a great gap there. And people make changes in life. People make changes in life. So I see that the governor came out on Saturday, and he made his confession as well, and made it clear that he was repentant and apologizing for what he saw that had surfaced. And I accept his apology.

I think that we, as a country, we're going through a very difficult time right now. And I believe that we should stop, take a look, evaluate where we are and what our issues are today, and reason a little bit different and open up our heart and show more love and consider a person. If they say they've made a change, things are different because we need to be able to have a chance to experience change in our life.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Should we do that with everyone? Because even if you're in the justice system, regardless of your infraction, whether it's a misdemeanor or something criminal, people can forgive you for it or either you go away and you make amends for it. But it doesn't mean immediate, that people immediately forgive you for what you've done and that wipes the slate clean immediately.

Why is this different? Just because you say that you're sorry, and maybe you're not a bigot at this point, does it mean that you should be rewarded with the highest office in the state?

PEACOCK: No, I think that if --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Because you can have forgiveness and you can go on and be a great friend. You can go fishing with him. You can go have a drink with him. You can go to church with him.

PEACOCK: That's true.

LEMON: You can -- he can become an accountant. No one is saying that he has to go away. They're just saying maybe if I had known this information as a voter in the state of Virginia, I might have made a different choice. That's all I am saying.

PEACOCK: Yeah, I understand.

LEMON: Yeah.

PEACOCK: But can I make a quote here? Second Chronicles 7:14 is very powerful. The Lord says very clear. He said if my people, which are called by my name will humble themselves, pray, seek my face, turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven. And I will forgive their sin and heal their land. You see, the governor's problem right now is bigger.

[22:45:01] The problem that we have in our world today is bigger than the governor's problem. And I think what we do. We go after -- like we're doing the governor -- I think we should stop and look at the bigger picture because we can --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: OK, OK. I just want to get the reverend in. I don't mean to be rude and cut you off. We only have a limited amount of time. Reverend, you want to weigh in on this?

REV. KEVIN CHANDLER, VIRGINIA STATE CONFERENCE NAACP PRESIDENT: Yes. Thank you. So as we look at racism, we have to get to a point where we're no longer tolerating racism. And that's what we're talking about, racism. Granted that this was something that was done, the governor made a mistake, we are supposed to forgive, and we're to forgive, and Jesus has said that we are to forgive 70 times seven.

And -- but we can forgive the man. But in the position that he holds, we cannot allow him to continue in that. So therefore, it is the reason why we're demanding that he step down.

LEMON: It was 35 years ago, though. But do you -- you believe people can grow and evolve on racial issues. But it sounds to me like you're saying you still don't necessarily think he should be governor. I don't want to put words in your mouth. What are you saying?

CHANDLER: Well, no. I don't think that he should continue in the position of governor. I think that he should step down, simply for the fact that -- first of all on Friday, he's apologetic. On Saturday, he's denying that it was even him.

And so again, the question remains of if it is him in the picture, which one is he? And either one -- neither one of them makes it right. And so we're in 2019, and we're still tolerating racism. And it's a time when we need to put that away. And all we're asking is that Ralph Northam step down, allow Virginia to move forward and heal and deal with the racism and deal with the issues.

LEMON: Yeah.

CHANDLER: For him to come on television on Friday and say he's a better man than he was then, and then Saturday deny all of it, how is he better?

LEMON: Yeah.

CHANDLER: And so as he's lost the trust --

LEMON: Yeah. I have got to run.

CHANDLER: -- you can't really go forward.

LEMON: Yeah. Thank you, both. Listen. I wish we had more time but we have some breaking news. I really appreciate both of your perspectives. And thank you so much for coming on. If this continues, we hope to have you back. Thanks a lot.

A White House staffer leaked the president's schedule from the past three months. And big surprise, most of his day is made up with executive time. What does he do during executive time, and how troubling is it that a staffer would leak this?

[22:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So someone leaked President Trump's private schedules for the past three months, schedules that show a majority of the president's day as unstructured executive time. I want you to take a look at this.

Since early November, President Trump has had almost 300 hours of executive time compared to just 77 hours of meetings. That's according to schedules leaked to Axios by someone in the Trump administration.

So let's discuss now. Two people who know the White House operations very well. That's Desiree Barnes. She is a former Obama administration aide. And Anita McBride, the former Chief of Staff to First Lady Laura Bush, she was also an aide to President's George H.W. Bush and Ronald Reagan. Thank you, both so much for joining us.

So help us understand. Desiree, let's look at this, 60 percent of President Trump's private schedule is unstructured executive time, which is used for tweeting, television, making phone calls, and meetings. How does that compare to the former President Obama?

DESIREE BARNES, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION AIDE: I mean I don't even think this is a partisan thing. I think this is about preparation. And he has to prove to the American people who elected him that he's not only prepared for whatever crisis happens, I don't think the American people are paying rent on his time in the White House for him to be tweeting.

I can certainly tell you that former President Barack Obama didn't spend this much time tweeting. It doesn't require five hours a day. But I do think there are certainly some questions that I do have for that use of time. I think there are early childhood educators who could say that the children they teach have more structured time than the current president. LEMON: Yeah, very interesting. Anita, President Trump's first official meeting of the state, which is usually an intelligence briefing or meeting with the chief of staff starts around 11:00, 11:30 a.m. That's a lot different than your experience with the Bush family and President Reagan, right?

ANITA MCBRIDE, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO FIRST LADY LAURA BUSH: Oh my, gosh. Well, certainly, with President George W. Bush, he was up pretty early. At 5:15, he was up making coffee for, you know, his wife, reading the papers, and in the office by 6:45, just a very different, a disciplined approach to his day.

And as Desiree knows, when you're the scheduler in the White House, you are really tightly managing all of those minutes on the president's schedule because their time is their most valuable asset, and it's a commodity that all of us have wanted to protect.

But I think we knew Donald Trump coming into the White House was a very different person. And he said you know that he likes things to be a little more organic and to have his time structured differently. I am not saying one way is right and one is wrong. It just would, you know, give the appearance that those that may need to see you, can't see you until later in the morning --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: It certainly is unusual to say the least, right? I think what you're saying is right that he's different. So -- and the Press Secretary, Sarah Sanders said as much. She responded to the story, saying that President Trump has a different leadership style. He is the most productive president in modern history. This is what counselor to the president, Kellyanne Conway, had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLYANE CONWAY, COUNSELOR TO PRESIDENT: There are many, many different meetings that he's having, extending meetings that go longer. People -- I think if you're always going to be presumptively negative, then you'll read into that whatever you want. But as we say, he's a very active president. And the results speak for themselves, and many people in this country are very happy with those results.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Desiree, I wonder what you think about that. If you look at this, 72 percent -- a CNN poll shows that 72 percent of Americans think the federal government is doing a bad job at governing. Do those results speak for themselves, do you think?

BARNES: I mean I think they do. I think that when Kellyanne Conway says that he's taking a lot of meetings. I think the American people are asking show us the receipts. You know, is it going to turn up in my tax return? Is it going to shop when you address the crisis at the border? There are still dozens of children who are separated from their family members, and we don't see that reflected on his schedule that he's taking the time to address these crises.

[22:55:57] So -- and I also want to know what are the metrics to making the most productive president of the United States. I also really -- I don't know. I just question that he would be so presumptuous to consider himself the most productive president so early on.

LEMON: Yeah. Well, it's interesting to also -- considering how he criticized the president you worked for, saying, you know, he didn't work that much. He was always on the golf course.

BARNES: Which we know that was just projections at this point. I think he was projecting his own shortcomings.

LEMON: It's all -- I always say that. It's always projecting when it comes to him. Anita, what is a leak of all these schedules say about the operation President Trump is running, and why would someone in the White House want this out there?

MCBRIDE: Well, I think, you know, this is the part overall I have to say that bothers me the most. I think any of us that have worked in the White House, I mean you know how tough it is anyway, and you don't want to be a distraction for the president. And why anybody would do this. I mean, how are they even just keeping track of all these schedules and obviously premeditated, knew they wanted to release them.

It just -- someone earlier on a CNN show today -- I think it was David Gergen -- just said, you know, it's almost as if everyone is playing out a civil war on that staff and playing it out publicly. And that's just not fair to the White House. That stuff is not fair to any president. So I just say it's a breakdown in process, and it's not a way to operate and run a government for sure.

LEMON: Well said, both of you. We appreciate your insights and your perspective on this. You definitely have the expertise, having worked in three different administrations when you combine.

MCBRIDE: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: At least.

MCBRIDE: I am old.

LEMON: No, no, no, just experienced. We'll be right back.

BARNES: Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)