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Interview with Anna Wintour, Vogue's Editor-In-Chief; Michel Martin Interviewed Kiese Laymon, Author of "Heavy"; Henry Louis Gates, Jr. on Reconstruction America After the Civil War. Aired 11p-12p ET

Aired July 1, 2019 - 23:00   ET



CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR, CNN: Hello, everyone and welcome to "Amanpour". This week we are dipping into the archives and

looking back at some of our favorite interviews from the year. Here's what's coming up.

Vogue Editor-in-Chief, Anna Wintour, at the top of the fashion industry surveys her cultural kingdom for us in a rare interview. She tells me why

her magazine takes a stand.

Plus -


KIESE LAYMON, AUTHOR, HEAVY:AN AMERICAN MEMOIR: We weren't back in Mississippi for longer than a week when you smashed me across my face with

the heel of a Patrick Ewing Adidas because I talked back.


AMANPOUR: Author, Kiese Laymon exposes his mother as a brutal disciplinarian growing up in Mississippi and the reasons behind it. Then

we zoom out to the cycle of progress and backlash in the United States. Historian, Henry Louis Gates, Jr. tells me how Americas off forgot

reconstruction era is as relevant as ever.

Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. The worldwide fashion industry is worth a whopping $2.5 trillion and it employs

some 75 million people. At the very top of that sits Anna Wintour, the Editor-In-Chief of U.S. Vogue and artistic director of Conde Nast.

A word from her can create or kill trends once that filter down from art couture to fast fashion. Effectively, she decides what we are all wearing.

Her iconic "Bob" and sunglasses are as famous as Vogue itself. And in 2006, Wintour became a cult figure when Meryl Streep gave wicked portrayal

in "The Devil Wears Prada".



MERYL STREEP, ACTRESS: I don't understand why it's so difficult to confirm an appointment?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know. I'm so sorry, Miranda. I actually did confirm last night.

STREEP: Details of your incompetence do not interest me. Tell Simone, I'm not going to approve that girl that she sent me for the Brazilian layout.

I asked for clean, athletic, smiling. She sent me dirty, tired and paunchy. And RSVP yes to the Michael Kors' party. I want the driver to

drop me off at 9:30 and pick me up at 9:45.


AMANPOUR: There has even been a documentary about the magazine itself called the "September Issue". It is the most important issue of the year.

Wintour has been at the helm of Vogue for 30 years. And in just a few weeks, she throws the biggest party on the planet. It's the annual met


Not only a who's who a fashion celebrity, it is a huge cultural event that also raises money for the Anna Wintour Costume Center at New York's

Metropolitan Museum. In an era where blockbuster fashion exhibitions draw unprecedented crowds, she very rarely gives interviews.

But, Anna Wintour sat down with me in New York to talk about the gala, fashion, and why Vogue Magazine must have a point of view in the modern



AMANPOUR: Anna Wintour, welcome to program.

ANNA WINTOUR, VOGUE EDITOR-IN-CHIEF: Thank you for having me.

AMANPOUR: Look, can I just address the elephant in the room? You are wearing your dark glasses. I'm - I'm not sure that I expect you to wear

them during the interview, but I know that you do -


AMANPOUR: - wear them inside. I just want to know -


AMANPOUR: - because everybody wants to know.

WINTOUR: Well, today I'll be brutally frank because I've been unbelievably ill all week and - plus, I just had eye surgery, so those are the real

reasons I'm wearing today; otherwise, I would brave you without them.

AMANPOUR: But, they are - are they - are they - are they an inscrutable protect - because you wear them in the front row fashion as well.


AMANPOUR: You're right there sitting next to the queen.

WINTOUR: They're incredible useful because you avoid people knowing what you're thinking about. They avoid - they help me when I'm feeling a bit

tired or sleepy. And I don't know, maybe they've just become a crutch and part of who I am, but today I really did need them.

AMANPOUR: Well, let's get on with what your next huge thing on your agenda which is the cultural event of every year, the met gala.

WINTOUR: Yes. Yes.

AMANPOUR: And we've got here, this amazing catalog from the met -


AMANPOUR: - and we'll show some beautiful pictures. It is extraordinary. The theme this year is "Camp, Notes on Fashion".

WINTOUR: Yes. Yes. Andrew Bolton whose secure agent in-charge of the costume institute thinking behind as he was inspired by Susan Sontag's

"Notes on Camp" and we - we are calling it in-house from the sun kings to drag queens. But, really if you read Susan's remarkable essays, you will

understand that "Camp" is an expression of everything that is artificial.

Everything that is a little bit fake, it's the opposite of nature. So, don't wear your hunting boots or your backtrack. And, obviously, we are

also looking at the influence that the LGBTQ Community has had on "Camp".

[23:05:00] AMANPOUR: And you and Conde Nast have been very, very prominent in recognizing and empowering LGBTQ.

WINTOUR: Yes. I mean obviously particularly right now, it's a very important issue and something that we believe at Conde Nast. And I know I

suddenly believe on a personal level. It's very important to stand up and support and do anything that we can to talk about discrimination and LGBTQ


But, this is really a celebration of LGBT culture and the fun they have with dressing as well as, you know, cultural references. And last year, we

worked on a - on a hugely successful exhibition called "Heavenly Bodies," which discussed the influence of the Catholic Church on costume.

AMANPOUR: Did the Vatican approve? Because one could say if one was a fervent Catholic that, you know, there were bits that were laughing at

religion, there were bits that mocking, you know, it wasn't obviously totally respectful.

WINTOUR: Yes, but actually, they were very collaborative on the exhibition.


WINTOUR: They lent 30 or 40 pieces from the private Vatican collection that never left Rome before.

AMANPOUR: It's amazing.


AMANPOUR: But, what might you wear this year?

WINTOUR: This year? Well, there's a quote - I don't have it complete correct, but there's a - there's a quote from the Sontag note that says,

"Camp is a Woman Wearing Millions of Feathers." So, I think I might be taking some inspiration from that.

But - so, dealing with the Vatican was very particular. And this one in comparison, has been more straightforward, but so much fun. And I think

the community is very excited about it and everyone looking forward to it and it's going to be an extraordinary red carpet.

AMANPOUR: I was - I was stunned when I saw the Alexander McQueen here at the met, because it wasn't just clothing. It wasn't just fashion. It

looked like sculpture. It looked like art. It's was futuristic. It was completely extraordinary visual experience.


AMANPOUR: And I wonder what you - what your reflections are on today of your industry or business being without Alexander McQueen, being out -

without a Versace and of course, this year Karl Lagerfeld passed away.

WINTOUR: Yes. I mean, obviously being in Europe at the time that we lost Karl, I think was a moment of great reflection for all of us. Obviously,

he was a figure larger than life reaching way beyond the confines of our industry.

I mean he was a true - it's an overused phrase, but he was a true renaissance man. He spoke all those languages and it was very moving to be

in Europe after we lost him and to have so many people come up to one in the street. Not from our world just to say -


WINTOUR: - what a great loss it was from the world, but because we - and we need figures like that. We need these people that inspire us way beyond

what you might see on the runway. So, I think it is a point of reflection about the idea that fashion is not disposable. That it is something that

you can invest in, that you could have memories that you can keep that is lasting.

AMANPOUR: I guess I have to jump to the disposable issue that you've just mentioned because there is a criticism right now today in our times of

environmental existential crisis.


AMANPOUR: That fashion is the second most polluting industry in the world -


AMANPOUR: - and that people are buying massively more than they did 15 years ago, but using the massively less -


AMANPOUR: - so the disposable fashion. I know that's not what you do, but nonetheless -


AMANPOUR: - Stella McCartney and others are very, very conscious about trying to -


AMANPOUR: - reduce the amount of leather, plastic -

WINTOUR: Right. Right.

AMANPOUR: - fur, all of that.

WINTOUR: Well, I think it's something that everybody in the industry, certainly other people that I'm talking to, are very aware of, very

conscious of. I had a CEO - a huge European Company in my office just yesterday to discuss all that. Everybody is making a five-year plan.

Everybody is concerned about the climate crisis and what should be done to help. And, obviously, we're very aware as other industries are that we

have been at fault. And what can we do in the - in the relatively short amount of time we have to course correct.

AMANPOUR: So, it's an urgency for you?

WINTOUR: It's an urgency for everybody within the industry. I feel very confident in saying that. And there are organizations like fair fashion

and many - the U.N. that are working with everybody across the globe to see what we can all do to correct it.

[23:10:00] AMANPOUR: What's your view on fur these days, because you did popularize it again.

WINTOUR: You know, I think that fake fur is obviously more of a polluter than real fur. I think a lot of people are discussing the idea of up

cycling and what you can do with fabrics, fur - things that have already been used. This is a word that we're using over and over again.

So, I think it's up to the houses that work with fur to make sure that they are following best practices, that they are being ethical in their

treatment. And we will make sure from our end that we are doing exactly the same thing.

AMANPOUR: This also leads into politics because it's the political leaders who are going to lead us out of these crises. You are political. I mean,

you are a major fund-raiser for Barack Obama. Your magazine, the most important fashion bible in the world, does profile some very, very

important women who are in politics. Tell me about that.

I mean you're overtly political in your profiles and in what you stand for. What is it that you're trying to say by profiling Michelle Obama or Kamala

Harris or even Stormy Daniels to do that?

WINTOUR: Well, these - if you're talking about the First Lady or Senator Harris, obviously, these are women that we feel are icons and inspiring to

women from a global perspective. I also feel even more strongly now that this is not a time to try and - I think one has to be fair. One has to

look at all sides.

But, I don't think it's a moment not to take a stand. I think you can't be everything to everybody. And I think it is a time when - a time that we

live in a world as you would well know of fake news and stretching to be kind. Let's say - let me say stretching of the truth.

I believe as I think those of us who work at Conde Nast believed that you have to stand up for what you believe in. And you have to take a point-of-

view and our readers, our audiences follow and respect us. And if they disagree, we would love to hear. But, I don't think you can try and please

everybody all the time.

AMANPOUR: It's really interesting you say that because it is noticeable that there are more Democratic women from the Democratic Party in your

magazine and profile than there are Republican. I wonder whether there's a reason for that. Well, is there?

WINTOUR: As I said - well, I think - I think it's very, very important to have a point-of-view. We profile woman in the magazine that we believe in

the stand that they're taking on issues. We support them in the fact that we feel that they are leaders. That particularly after the defeat of

Secretary Clinton in 2016 that we believe that women should have a leadership position. And that we intend to support them.

AMANPOUR: I was really interested to hear that - I believe Secretary Clinton, when she was first lady was the first first lady to be on the

cover of Vogue?

WINTOUR: She was.

AMANPOUR: Not even Jacqui Kennedy was on the cover?

WINTOUR: She was. No. She was photographed many times within the magazine with her husband and her children and I think with her sister,

iconic pictures, but I think it was a time when I felt that the first lady at that time had behaved in a very brave way.

AMANPOUR: Was this in surviving the slings and arrows of her husband's accusations and the impeachment -

WINTOUR: Slings and arrows of misfortune, yes. So, I - we felt it was the time to, you know, to support her and to stand up for women and it was - we

were very honored that she agreed to be our cover at that time. And we were also very honored obviously. I think Mrs. Obama was on the cover

three times while she was in the White House.

AMANPOUR: What does she mean to you? I mean she's not just an amazing role model.

WINTOUR: I think Mrs. Obama redefined the role of the first lady. I mean she was so open to everybody. She made the White House a place for

everyone. I think she had incredible initiatives whether it was with the veterans or with obesity or fitness or many of the other issues that she

supported, obviously, a lot of the work that she did with the arts.

I mean - and she was just so - I think inspiring to so many women and obviously on a - on a very selfish note speaking as the editor-in-chief of

Vogue, she did wonders for fashion. She loved fashion. And -

AMANPOUR: And high and low, right?

WINTOUR: She mixed high and low. She supported designers that one has never heard of. And, you know, we have always had the tradition at Vogue

to photograph first ladies when they first came in to office and some extraordinary wonderful women.

And it was an honor to photograph them, but they were always super cautious about what they wanted to wear and the image that they wanted to present

nearly always a jacket, you know, maybe some pearls if you are Mrs. Bush. But, with Mrs. Obama, you know, she was fearless. And I - it was such a

joy for all of us -

[23:15:00] AMANPOUR: Yes.

WINTOUR: - that work in - work in fashion.

AMANPOUR: Talk to you about Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern of New Zealand, because I know you've profiled her -

WINTOUR: Yes. We did. We did.

AMANPOUR: And she has really shown what it means to be a leader in this post massacre -

WINTOUR: Yes. Yes.

AMANPOUR: - environment in New Zealand.

WINTOUR: Well, I think that she's an exceptionally direct articulate person. And there is no sense that she's ever on message. And with the

tragedy that New Zealand recently went through, I felt that she - it's an overuse phrase, but she truly brought the country together in such a

remarkable way -

AMANPOUR: She did.

WINTOUR: - that I haven't seen many other leaders achieve. And I mean she was just so moving. And when she said, you know, we are all one country.

It was just - I thought a message that a lot of other leaders could learn from.

AMANPOUR: I don't want to be flipping to a crass, but I do believe that what she wore -


AMANPOUR: - was incredibly important. I'm not going to even say it about fashion. But, she wore something that many people might say, "Wooh, don't

go too culturally far." But she was -

WINTOUR: Yes. She was standing up for what she believed in. She was being fearless. And she was sending a very clear message in a way that

nobody could misinterpret. And I think she was a message of hope and unity to countries all over the world. I really salute her.

AMANPOUR: I want to talk a little bit about you. Anna Wintour, you are a power. Why do you think it is that even some of your friends profess to be

intimidated by you? There's a famous quote from Barbara Amiel, a society lady and journalist who said that "She's my friend and yet I'm in a cold

sweat when I know I have to meet her." Others have called you, Anna Nuclear Wintour. What do you think that's all about?

WINTOUR: No. No. Well, I think you're quoting from things that were said maybe several decades ago. So, I think -

AMANPOUR: Have you softened?

WINTOUR: Maybe, I'll - I think I'm very direct and very clear about my point-of-view and what I think. And I also want to reiterate that the -

the other wonderful opportunity that I have at Conde Nast is to be able to support talent.

And to be able to help young designers or young editors, young writers, young photographers embark on their path in life because I think it's a

very confusing world. And there are so many choice today in a way that was unthinkable when I first started. So, anything that we can do to help

young people navigate that, I'm honored to do.

AMANPOUR: I just want to ask about your own path, did you face any impediments, barriers, sexual innuendos or assaults? I mean did you face

that kind of struggle when you are getting to the top?

WINTOUR: I don't feel personally that it's been a disadvantage that I'm a woman. I feel that sometimes there has been a certain level of personal

criticism directed at me that possibly might not have been at a man in a similar position. But, I -

AMANPOUR: Well, like you're too tough, you're too strong, what kind of criticism?

WINTOUR: Probably that, yes, most of all. But - and about one's appearance or whatever.

AMANPOUR: The hairstyle?

WINTOUR: The hairstyle being too thin.

AMANPOUR: Too thin?

WINTOUR: Too thin, I get that a lot.



AMANPOUR: I always - I always get people asking me, "You've had it for so long and it's exactly the same -


AMANPOUR: - as it's been for many, many years."

WINTOUR: Right. Right.

AMANPOUR: Why is that?

WINTOUR: My haircut?

AMANPOUR: And its signature.

WINTOUR: Well, it's one more decision I don't have to make every day. And, no - but, I - I actually don't think that I've had particularly a

rough time from being a woman. Obviously, I think partly because of the industry that I - that I work in. And I also - I'm very focused. So,

maybe because of my clarity and my focus, I haven't let it in.

AMANPOUR: That's an interesting way to put it, I haven't let it in. I wonder if that's got anything to do with your pedigree, so to speak, your

father -


AMANPOUR: - was, I believe, the editor of the Evening Standard.

WINTOUR: That's right, yes.

AMANPOUR: - which is a major British newspaper. One of your brothers is a diplomatic editor at the Guardian.

WINTOUR: Correct.

AMANPOUR: Another sibling works in NGOs, I think in housing or planning?

WINTOUR: Yes. Yes.



AMANPOUR: Your father was nicknamed, "Chilly Charlie".

WINTOUR: Correct.

AMANPOUR: - for a certain inscrutability.

[23:20:00] WINTOUR: Yes. Yes.

AMANPOUR: What did you learn from him?

WINTOUR: The decisiveness, and passion. I, mean he loved what he did and it was so inspiring growing up in a house full of journalists, and editors,

and - and always being aware of what was happening in the world, and it made me love the news and it made me love culture.

And he was very passionate about theater he's very passionate about cinemas so he brought what he did home. And - and those kind of people,

politicians, writers, editors, they were at the house at all times. So how lucky was I.

AMANPOUR: Very lucky and look where you are. And - and how did you pick the fashion and of journalism? What was it that sparked that?

WINTOUR: I think I was growing up in England on a very interesting time. It was a major cultural change going on where all the class barriers were

really being broken down, and hairdressers, and musicians were becoming celebrities in the way that they couldn't have done been before the war in

the '50s. It was just so thrilling to be in London at that particular time.

And obviously a lot of that was channeled through the lens of fashion, so I think any young girl growing up in that culture could not be interested in

it. So I went to work at a magazine when I was quite young and at that time you know, you didn't really need too much experience. They were just

happy to have you there. So I was very fortunate.

AMANPOUR: Vogue is sort of the cultural bible the touchstone and yet online is sort of really obviously way overtaking print and Instagram,

influencers maybe having a bigger influence than Vogue. I'd like to know your thoughts on that and where do you ever think that the glossy magazine

is a species that's going extinct, yours particularly?

WINTOUR: I think we're so fortunate today to have so many different channels in which to speak to our audiences if you go back to when I was a

young girl growing up in Britain and I went for my first job. And it was considered a great thing if we reach an audience of 90,000 people with a

monthly magazine.

Now, we have, I believe its 22 million followers on Instagram alone at Vogue U.S. So we are talking to men, women, all over the world in a way

that we couldn't possibly have imagined even 10 years ago, 15 years ago.

So, now I think they're all important. They all serve a different purpose, they all are valid, and our challenges defined the best voice for each

particular channel that we're using. And obviously now, we're doing so much more with video, and film, and even an event like the Med is another

way for us to talk to our audience about the excitement and culture of fashion.

AMANPOUR: Do you think the magazine will last, will stay?

WINTOUR: I do, I do, I feel that there is an engagement with a glossy rich magazine like Vogue that experience - it isn't the same when you look at

something online. I mean it peaks in a day, it trends in a day, and it's great the news gets out there and we're so excited to see it. But there's

something about sitting with the magazine and luxuriating in it that is very special.

AMANPOUR: You had to bring in new standards and codes of conduct during the Me Too era?


AMANPOUR: You have two very famous photographers who you've now said cannot work at Vogue anymore because of allegations against them. What was

the culture on photo shoots, and what is it now, what should it be particularly with young, young girls who are models?

WINTOUR: Right. Well, obviously we did have a code of conduct in place before Me Too became so much on everybody's minds and the minute we started

to hear about the stories in so many different industries obviously not just fashion industry. We decided to investigate very seriously what our

code of conduct was, how it should be revised.

We interviewed hundreds of people within the company and without to make sure all best practices where in place. We set up a hotline that anyone

should something unfortunate happen on any of our shoots could feel free to call immediately and anonymously, and that we would immediately act.

But obviously things did happened and the stories and the incidences that were reported to us where of a depth that we did not feel that we could

continue to work with some contributors who done extraordinary wonderful work for us for many, many years.

[23:25:03] And where in some incidences personal friend, so it was a difficult personal decision but there was no doubt in anybody's mind that

this was the right thing to do.

AMANPOUR: And I guess finally, how does in Anna Wintour relax? If you're not seen in the front row of every fashion show, you are seen at most major

grand slam tennis events.


AMANPOUR: And usually in the box if you're great friend, Roger Federer.


AMANPOUR: So tell me about tennis? Do you play? Have you played with Roger? What's the deal here?

WINTOUR: I had never played with Roger until this summer when my daughter got married and as a thank you present to me, she secretly she invited

Roger and his family, his - he has two sets of twins and his wife Mirka to a weekend in the country and they arrived at 9:00 in the morning when I had

just got on the court and I had no idea that Roger and Mirka were coming or the twins, and he was incredible.

He played, I had a large family party out there that weekend. I think we were 40 or 45. He played with everybody.


WINTOUR: And I was fortunate enough to play doubles with him against my two nephews age 11 and 13. And you know what, we won.

AMANPOUR: No, I don't believe it. Anna Wintour, thank you very much indeed.

WINTOUR: Thank you for having me.


AMANPOUR: Rare insight indeed. And now, our next guest also has a point of view, one that speaks to an America that's still healing old wounds. In

his poignant and raw autobiography, Heavy, the author Kiese Laymon, looks at what it means to grow up in a society that oppresses black people from

eating habits to domestic violence.

His memoir tells the story of himself as a small boy with his mother in Jackson, Mississippi and struggling to take control it is the society that

gives you so little of it. Our Michel Martin sat down with Kiese and asked him to connect the dots of his multifaceted life.



about family relationships, it's about food.


MARTIN: It's about weight.


MARTIN: It's about being heavy.

LAYMON: Right.

MARTIN: It's written really as a lengthy letter to your mother.


MARTIN: She is a very, how can I put this, interesting character. If you look at her as a character.

LAYMON: Definitely.

MARTIN: Tell me a little bit about her.

LAYMON: She's - she's interesting. She's complicated. She had me when she was 19. She became a political science professor at 24. So, we moved

from Mississippi to Wisconsin back to Mississippi when she was about 24. And she gave her life to, you know, Black students at Jackson State

University. She gave her life to our region.

And, like most parents, she just, you know, had a hard time being a human and being a parent at the same time, especially to, you know, a little

black boy growing up in Jackson, Mississippi. But she never wavered in terms of what my writing practice was going to be. You know what I mean?

We see our parents sometimes become people, and part of this book is like admitting that like I wasn't sure how to talk about my mother becoming a

woman, not just becoming my mama. And she just made sure early on in life that I understood that writing and revision were key to what she would call


She was what definitely one of these black parents who believed that you could write and revise your way into a particular kind of safety. On other

- on other hand, I mean, I think it's okay to say that, you know, I think my mother was a bit physically abusive.

MARTIN: A bit?

LAYMON: I mean, yes.

MARTIN: A bit?

LAYMON: I think that she was physically abusive. And I think she learned to be physically abusive from the nation but also from the culture. Do you

know, like -

MARTIN: Talk more.

LAYMON: We - we grew up in a part of this country where parents, black parents especially, taught their children that like whatever they did to

their bodies was going to be less harmful than what the police might do to you, than what the teachers might do to you, than what white mobs might do

to you. So, my mom was very physically, aggressively trying to discipline my body into anticipating what white supremacy and white people would do.

And - and it took me awhile to understand that that was abusive, and it took me awhile to see that, you know, there were patterns of abuse, it

wasn't just that my mom was abusive, this is what was happening in most of the homes that I grew up in or saw.

But she really believed that somehow, like she could protect my body by beating my body and protect my body from, again, white supremacy, which is

an interesting and sort of sad - sort of dialogue on where we are because when my teachers failed me, I would get a whipping and I knew that at the

time. You know, if my teachers, you know, said I talked back or they said that they saw me with something I shouldn't have, whether I had it or not,

I know when I got home, I would get beaten.

[23:30:00] Because my mom pretty much would say, "You should have known better. And with this beating you will know better." The book, I'm very

laudatory of my mom, I'm very thankful for everything she gave to me. I just don't know that those beatings ever actually did help.

MARTIN: Do you want to read this passage? I was debating whether - can you read it?


MARTIN: Do you mind?

LAYMON: I know - yes.

MARTIN: Just this passage here, just the first paragraph of this chapter which you call hulk.


MARTIN: Here you go.

LAYMON: Just the first?


LAYMON: Oh, yes.

MARTIN: Yes, oh yeah.

LAYMON: OK. Hulk. You were on one end of grand mama's couch yelling at me while I was on the other end grasping the side of my face. We weren't

back in Mississippi for longer than a week when you smashed me across my face with the heel of a Patrick Ewing Adidas because I talked back. The

side of my face started to swell but I couldn't understand why getting hit in the face with the heel of a Ewing didn't hurt as much as it had before

we left Jackson.

I was 6'1", 215 pounds, 9 inches taller and over 40 pounds heavier than you. The softer parts of my heart and body were getting harder and those

harder parts didn't want to hurt you. But they wanted to never, ever be hurt by you again.

MARTIN: I - I find that passage so remarkable because, you know, black women whipping on their kids -


MARTIN: - almost a joke -

LAYMON: Right.

MARTIN: - in some parts of the black community.

LAYMON: Right.

MARTIN: Do you feel like you've opened the door to a secret in a way, like a family secret, by talking about this?

LAYMON: That's a great question. That's a great question. A part of me worries that I opened the door to a secret that will further pathologize

black women. And what I wanted to do in the book was show that, you know, the black women who raised me were incredibly complicated.

And one of the things that they were taught was to physically discipline their black children into survival or excellence. And I'm one of those

black children who was beaten into survival and excellence. And - and - and I want people to understand that I'm using the art that my mom and

grand mama gave me to talk about among other things, the belief that beating children into excellence works. I mean it doesn't. It didn't work

with me. I say that -

MARTIN: Didn't it?

LAYMON: No. I mean -

MARTIN: I mean it beat you into -

LAYMON: And one might say it did because I'm here.

MARTIN: Yes, exactly. That's the tricky piece, isn't it?

LAYMON: Right. One might say, well, you know, I think I would have been here a lot earlier.

MARTIN: Do you feel that in a way you've broken a taboo?

LAYMON: At my worst, I wonder if I broke a taboo that should not have been broken.

MARTIN: You still question that?

LAYMON: Well, because I do when I go around this country, there are black people who I think respect and love me and us who are like, I don't - you

know, there are some things you actually should have kept in the house. And -

MARTIN: Airing dirty laundry.

LAYMON: Airing the dirty laundry.

MARTIN: Yes. And why do they say that?

LAYMON: I think they worry because the same reason my mom beat me. I think they worry about what happens when white people see us, like see our

secrets like what they will do. And I think what we know is that there's - there's no length to what they would do but what I'm trying to say and I

don't know if I did it effectively or not is like absolutely, why focus on what white folks are going to do.

But can we be healthier, can we be more honest, can we be aggressively - can we aggressively listen and wonder around like our memory with each

other, holding each other's hands. Like why do all those people do whatever these people are going to do and I think we can. I think we can

make ourselves ironically heavier but we have to be willing to face yesterday.

My mom is someone who often says I'm not - I wasn't born with rearview mirrors. And I'll say, okay but let's invent them. Like let's invent the

rearview mirror and let's look back together. Do you know what I mean? That's what I'm trying to say and do, which means we have to do what a

nation has taught us not to do which is to look back and regretfully say these are some things I should not have done.

Let me talk to you about why I did them and hopefully going forward, I can be a better person, less violent, less abusive.

MARTIN: How do you understand her beating you? Because some people would say, you know it was your frustration. It was her frustration at not

getting child support from your father.


MARTIN: Her frustration at, you know, trying to take care of you, take care of herself, improve herself, go to school.


MARTIN: It was just - it was pressure and, you know, poverty, and lack of any other skills or knowing any better.

LAYMON: Absolutely.

MARTIN: So how do you understand it?

LAYMON: I mean I understand that and I understand that my mother in so many other ways took what society and culture said she should do and be and

made it different. She went a different way. In this way, in the way she disciplined her child, she did exactly what I think culture taught her to

do, which is to again discipline your son into submission so he will not be killed by white people.

MARTIN: Or could it be just that she did not have personal discipline? I mean, could it be her? Is there any part of this could just be her?

LAYMON: I mean I think if you -

MARTIN: Maybe she just did not have the patience to be a mom?

[23:35:00] LAYMON: I think if you read the book, you - you see that I'm - I feel, as a person who doesn't have a child, I feel unfair making that

critique, but that critique is there. Of course, my mom, I think knows that she failed in beating me as much as she did. And I think that she

knows that part of that was like, as much as it was influenced by culture and the nation, it was, obviously, her and she regrets that wholeheartedly.

MARTIN: But it's also true that you are very adamant about the fact that this is a bigger story.

LAYMON: Oh, it's so much bigger.

MARTIN: This isn't just the - it's a story of Kiese - Kiese and his mom -

LAYMON: So much bigger.

MARTIN: - and his mom hitting him a lot to the point where you still bear scars from it, emotional scars mainly, as well as physical scars, but this

is bigger. Tell me why you think it's bigger than that?

LAYMON: Well, I never got a beating in my life where my mother didn't talk to me about what white people were going to do. Like I never just got a

beating do you know what I mean? The beatings came along with a critique of the nation, with a critique of white supremacy which, again, which is a

familiar critique for those of us who got beaten in the South which is believe you me, what I'm doing to you is nothing compared to what they're

going to do.

And, you know, I could see, right? Like, I talk about it in the book, you know like, what's interesting is like I saw Rodney King get beaten. And I

watched cops - watch cops beat Rodney King, right, and we watched it. I remember I think it was on ABC. And that night, I came home, and my mother

found out that I was in my first relationship ever, and I was in a relationship with a white woman, and she beat me.

And it was one of the strangest times in my life where I was like, wow, I actually felt like I deserved that beating, which says a lot about like 15-

year-old black boys sort of psychological makeup but also it had to do with what I had just seen on T.V. Because in so many ways, my mother was trying

to say, I'm beating you so you won't be Rodney King. Of course, I know -

MARTIN: I'm beating you so they don't kill you.

LAYMON: So they don't kill you and - and - and get off for killing you, right? What I have to do as a writer that she raised is critique that

impulse, you know, and critique my mom publicly, which is hard. But I'm also trying to say that I understand that there are scripts that we're all

supposed to follow in this nation.

And sometimes we veer and we make like healthy moves outside of the script and sometimes we - we - stay inside of the script. And my mom often when

it came to parenting, I think she - she followed a particular kind of script.

But what's interesting is that I saw her so often break that script as a teacher. You know, as a woman, as a daughter, as a lover. And

retrospectively, what I'm trying to say is, ma, I wish you would have broken that script with me and I'm trying to break that script now as a

son, as a writer, as a citizen.

MARTIN: Spoiler alert. Your mom is very much alive.


MARTIN: She did read the book.


MARTIN: She has responded to the book.


MARTIN: So I want to spend some time on that. But I also want to point out that it's not just about her hitting you and how you feel about it.

It's about a lot of things. It is about food.


MARTIN: Heavy. You are heavy.

LAYMON: Right.

MARTIN: You're heavy.

LAYMON: I'm heavy.

MARTIN: And food is very much a part of - and sexual violence and the -

LAYMON: Right.

MARTIN: And people treating each other very poorly in a sexual way starting at a very young age.

LAYMON: Absolutely.

MARTIN: Do you think those are all connected?

LAYMON: I absolutely think they're connected. I don't think that they are causal though. This is - this is the difference, right. I don't think

that, for example, my mom beat me or that different people in my life were sexually abused purely because somebody else was abused. I think that, in

my experience, my mom beat me partially because of white supremacy, partially because of mass evictions, partially because of mass

incarcerations. I think that we're not lucky enough, I'm not lucky -

MARTIN: Because a man beat her.

LAYMON: Because a man beat her, too, right. And I'm not lucky enough though to say in my life that it was just because my mom got beaten, it was

just because it is. So we're not - I'm not lucky enough to live in that world. There were just so many things colliding that I think encouraged my

mom sometimes to not treat her child the way she wishes she would have.

And conversely, I know that I ate too much, lots of times, in my life because I was trying to deal with, you know, not just my mom but the world.

And I starved myself for years for the same reasons, right. I was trying to grasp control.

And so I think it's paradoxical. On one hand, you want to control what you're putting in because you don't have any control of your surroundings.

But on the other hand, there are times in my life when I wanted to make myself feel pain. And this circles back to what we talked about earlier.

Like when my mom was beating me, I felt a lot of things but I did also feel at least she cares, right.

When I was pushing my body to places I should have never pushed my body, I thought I was doing it out of a sense of care. So like this desire

sometimes to hurt ourselves again is something I think that's been engrained.

MARTIN: And what about the sexual violence? I mean I'll just tell you, it's just -

LAYMON: Right.

MARTIN: It's - your book is beautifully written.

[23:40:00] LAYMON: Right.

MARTIN: It's a hard read.

LAYMON: Right.

MARTIN: It's a hard read, especially - I don't know, especially - especially who - especially anybody, I mean -


MARTIN: - I have a daughter and a son and I - this is really hard.

LAYMON: It's tough.

MARTIN: It's hard to think about girls -

LAYMON: It's too.

MARTIN: -just being treated -

LAYMON: Right.

MARTIN: - as if they were tissues -

LAYMON: Right.

MARTIN: - to be wiped off.

LAYMON: Absolutely.

MARTIN: It is hard just read about, you know, boys being expected to treat girls in that way in order to preserve their standing with boys and also -

LAYMON: Absolutely.

MARTIN: - boys in some cases being treated that way.

LAYMON: Right.

MARTIN: How do you - how do you understand that? How do you understand that? Why sexuality becomes so compromised and so connected to violence?

LAYMON: I think my explanation is - I know that the boys that I know who aggressively sexually assaulted people were encouraged to sexually assault

people were taught. Particularly to black girls would recover no matter what -


LAYMON: - but also taught we don't have to care about black girls if they recover in that, right, which is a very interesting and sad state of

affairs, but also like those black boys, and I was one of those black boys.

You know, I started the book with my being like this bystander, watching these boys, listening to these boys sexually assault this young woman to

show that like it takes lots of people to create a culture of sexual violence, not just the perpetrators.

I was a young boy who knew what was happening in that room was wrong. I didn't know exactly what was happening, but I could have intervened. At

that age, I knew that if I intervened, those older boys who I wanted to like me were going to do something to me that I didn't want.

Do you know what I mean? So, it takes actual perpetrators, but as we also know, it also takes a culture that encourages it, and often, it takes

bystanders who just watch and pat themselves on the back for knowing it was wrong, but not intervening.

I did that at 12 years old. I was never going to run and trade on and sexually assault anyone. But I also was never going to stop anyone from

being sexually assaulted.


LAYMON: And at 12, I knew that that was something I should not do. That's learned. That's learned.

MARTIN: How are you now? How are things now?

LAYMON: How am I today? I know that my mama loves me. I know I love her. We're giving ourselves such opportunity to work through the hard, tough

parts, and that's not deliverance but that's better than we were.

MARTIN: She did read the book, but she actually wrote a long blog post -

LAYMON: She did.

MARTIN: - did she post it?

LAYMON: She wrote - which is going to be at the end of the book.


LAYMON: And she told - and we decided at the end of the day not to put it in there, but she's -

MARTIN: But you posted it on your personal blog.

LAYMON: I wanted people to see it. I wanted people -


LAYMON: - to see it.

MARTIN: And what did she say?

LAYMON: And then she said - she knows. She says that we see things differently, but she also apologized which was a big deal to me, and she

also agreed that this book has given her tools that she wished she had before she even had me to be - to be not just a better mother but just a

better citizen, a better human being.

You know what I'm saying? So, I felt when my mother wrote that letter, I felt loved and I felt cared for, and she didn't have to do that. Do you

know what I'm saying? So, I - I -

MARTIN: Some of the people who've responded to her post, though, are very critical of her.

LAYMON: All the critiques to my mom that have made, I listened to them. Sometimes, I hope she doesn't, but when it comes to the messy work of

creating a child (ph), beating was part of what she did to me, which I think she didn't have to do it.

But the reason I'm sitting here with you is because she was also so good at the other things, which are instilling the love of black people and

something the love of black literature and instilling the writing practice that loves black literature and loves black people.

Without that, I'm not here. Without the beatings, I think I'd be here earlier, but the thing that she made was a black writer who wants to be the

best at this.

MARTIN: Kiese Laymon, thank you so much for talking with us.

LAYMON: Thank you so much for having me, Michel. I appreciate it.


AMANPOUR: Now, from that difficult, indeed tragic personal story, we zoom out to the much bigger tragedy of America's original sin, slavery and the

effort of restitution during the construction of Europe. A sliver of American history in the 1860s and `70s, the period following the Civil War

saw African-Americans emancipated from slavery given the vote and their freedom.

It was a great move forward, but it only lasted a short time before a massive backlash cut off those freedoms. The period is find - is finding

itself in the spotlight. Thanks to the award-winning Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr.

Gates is also a professor of African-American studies at Harvard. His new book, "Stony the Road" tells the story of reconstruction while his

documentary follows its influence on contemporary American history. Take a quick look at this trailer.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Reconstruction was our shining moment. It's the second founding of our country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overnight, people who had been defined as property take leadership positions in the South, but this is an incredibly heady moment,

kind of like Barack Obama becoming president. But those black folks had no idea of then cliff they were heading towards. Reconstruction produced a

violent backlash, a racist backlash.


[23:45:08] AMANPOUR: And Professor Gates joins me now from New York. Welcome to the program.


AMANPOUR: So, I wonder why you chose to focus on this era. There was only 12 years long or, you know, up to about 12 years. I mean, we know about

slavery, the Civil War, civil rights and a backlash. Why reconstruction now?

GATES: Well, let me put it this way, Christiane. Twelve years of black freedom between 1865 and 1877 followed by an alt-right rollback with the

president immediately following the Civil War who refused to renounce white supremacy. Oh and a conservative Supreme Court that declared the Civil

Rights Movement of 1875 unconstitutional in 1883. Does this ring any bells?

AMANPOUR: Are you saying there are some parallels to today?

GATES: Oh, my goodness, I'd never say that. Yes, of course. This is the mirror. The - and I realized this when - I began to realize it when the

horrible murders at Mother Emanuel Church, in Charleston, South Carolina, you remember Dylann Roof -


GATES: - murdered Reverend Clementa Pinckney and the other innocents at the prayer meeting, and - and the reasons that he cited were all tropes,

rhetoric from the White Supremacist Movement that arose after the Civil War in reaction to reconstruction.

Two thousand black men were elected to office during reconstruction. Sixteen black congressmen, including two black senators, were elected in -

in that 12-year period, and the majority of the House of Representatives in the State of South Carolina, majority black.

There were three black states, majority black states in the United States at that time, South Carolina, Louisiana and Mississippi. And this was just

too much to bear, and as the saying goes, "The south rose again." And -

AMANPOUR: And so -

GATES: - with the complicity of a conservative Supreme Court, they rolled back all those rights.

AMANPOUR: So, I want to get some - get into more detail about the rollback, but first, I want to know from you the history of the

accomplishment of - of - of those who were emancipated and had their rights during reconstruction. What were they able to do blacks? And mostly black

men, right, because they were the ones getting their rights?

GATES: It was a glorious period. It was the most exciting period, obviously, in the history of black people in the United States because in

1867, black men in 10 of the 11 former Confederate States because of the reconstruction military acts got the right to vote.

Christiane, 80 percent of the black men eligible to vote in the former Confederacy registered to vote, 80 percent, and in 1868, 500,000 of them

voted for the presidential candidate Ulysses S. Grant. Grant only won by 300,000 votes.


GATES: So, effectively, black men had elected a white man, the president of the United States, and they did the same thing for Grant in 1872. Can

you imagine going from chattle (ph) slavery to the U.S. Congress to dominating the House of Representatives in the State of South Carolina and

to electing a white man president?

There was only one problem. Cotton remained the leading export crop in the United States until the 1930s, and somebody had to pick that cotton.

AMANPOUR: So, are you saying -

GATES: Some -

AMANPOUR: Sorry. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but are you saying then that this emancipation suddenly people realized, "Oh, my God, what about our

economy and we can't be letting this continue?"

GATES: Right. And also the forms of racism, anti-black racism that had justified the enslavement of Africans, you know, starting in the 17th

Century and ending in 1865 in the United States, morphed, we might say. And they morphed, became more pernicious, more virulent because the genie

had been released from the lamp.

And what was that genie? That black men actually were human beings, not apes, that they could - that they were reasonable, possess reason and not

only that, they were talented enough to speak in Congress, write bills, run state legislatures.

And, indeed, the first statewide public school systems in the entire south were the result of these reconstruction governments. These governments

with all these black officials were massively reformists and did brilliant, brilliant things, and so they had to be crushed.

And I'll give you an example of how devastating that crushing went. When - starting in 1890, the former Confederate States reconvened State

Constitutional Conventions, it's called - started under the rubric, the Mississippi plan, and effectively, they disenfranchised black men.

[23:50:06] And to - just give you one example, in 1898 in Louisiana, there were 130,000 black men registered to vote. After the convening of that

Constitutional Convention, by 1904, there were exactly 1,342 black men -

AMANPOUR: I mean, it's such a -

GATES: - registered to vote.

AMANPOUR: - it's a crazy statistic, and you talked about white supremacy, the violence and all the rest of it. It was one of the most violent

periods in American history. And I had spoken about it not so long ago with the - with Bryan Stevenson, the professor of International Justice.

And he's recently established the National Memorial for Peace and Justice in Montgomery.


AMANPOUR: This is what he told me about that violence and how he characterized it.


BRYAN STEVENSON, FOUNDER AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, EQUAL JUSTICE INITIATIVE: We cannot describe this violence as murder or even as hate crimes. It was

terrorism. Black people were pulled out of their homes. They were drowned. They were burned alive. They were beaten to death. They were


Sometimes on the lawn in the public square, on - in front of courthouses, thousands of people would come and celebrate this spectacle of violence and

brutality. And we haven't talked about it, and it did something devastating to this nation.


AMANPOUR: It really is devastating and very few people really focus on that era of reconstruction as I'm saying, and you have also a younger

version of the book in the documentary for young people in schools as well.

I just want to ask you because people are going to say and they did say it and they've asked President Barack Obama, "You know, we thought that your

election would be transformative." This is what he said about that.


BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In the same way that you wouldn't expect in a four-year span or an eight-year span to undo the

entire legacy of race in America. Social attitudes also don't transform in four years or eight years. It happens over generations and so, sure, there

is a residual racial prejudice in this society.


AMANPOUR: Now, you have, obviously, at the beginning, you drew a parallel with what's happening today. I mean is what's happening today inevitable

after a Barack Obama - I mean, in the America that you describe, and in the fact that history repeats itself, is it inevitable?

Did it have to be this kind of backlash or was there a way to make history go forward?

GATES: Well, I think many of us were shocked by the resurgence of white supremacy and its depth, its virulence, but the reason is that these issues

weren't - weren't resolved during reconstruction. What was reconstruction about, Christiane?

Who can be an American? Who has the right to vote? What is the role of terrorism in a democracy? What's the relationship between political

democracy and economic democracy?

These are all reconstruction issues, and they - they weren't resolved, and I think that, you know, it's kind of like watching a vampire movie for many

of us. And at the end, Dracula comes up out of - out of his casket and you go, "I thought you were dead. You know - that I thought we put a stake in

your heart."

Many of us thought that with Barack Obama's election and upper middle class brilliant, beautiful family on the news every day that this would chip away

against racism. And it did, to some extent, but it didn't as effectively as many of us thought.

And the same thing happened during reconstruction, white racists created a caricature called Sambo which proliferated American popular culture in the

1890s and the - or early teens culminating with the awful film "Birth of A Nation."

Black middle class people fought back by inventing the trope of the new Negro. This is America's first social media war, Sambo versus the new

Negro, but you can't win a revolution by fashioning an image. The revolution can only be won in this country with the ballot.

And the Confederacy - the Neo-Confederacy took the right to vote away from black men. The last black reconstruction congressman left in 1901. It

would be 28 years before another black man was elected to Congress. His name was Oscar De Priest.

He was elected in Chicago and the only reason he was elected is that black people had fled the south, particularly Mississippi and the great

migration, gone north and because of the 15th Amendment, passed in the Reconstruction Era, black men had the right to vote.

So, we've come full circle.

AMANPOUR: It - I mean, it really is an extraordinary tale and it would be great for everybody to watch this week on PBS your documentary. Henry

Louis Gates, thank you for joining us.

[23:55:04] GATES: Thank you so much.

AMANPOUR: And that is it for now. Remember, you can listen to our podcast at any time and see us online at, and you can follow me on

Instagram and Twitter.

Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.