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Madeleine Albright Reacts To Trump Official Undermining Statue Of Liberty Message; GOP Rep. King: Might Not Be Humans Left If Not For Rape & Incest; Richard Ross Jr.: Two Officers No Longer Trapped In Building. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired August 14, 2019 - 21:00   ET



ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Hey, good evening. Chris Cuomo is off tonight, as he has been all week.

I'm Anderson Cooper with a Special edition of 360, and breaking news coverage of a stand-off in Philadelphia, after at least six police officers have been shot and wounded, two officers still inside the building. Philadelphia's Police Commissioner last hour said that the shooter refuses to come out peacefully, in his words, and is holed up inside.

Jason Carroll's at the scene for us. So, what's happening where you are? So, what's the latest?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Still a volatile situation out here, Anderson. We're standing just about two blocks from where this stand-off is taking place. You can see right down there at the intersection, the row house in question where the suspect or suspects are inside, is on the left side of the street there.

This all started at just at about 4:35 this afternoon. That's when police were out here serving a search warrant. The narcotics team responded to that. They were met by gunfire. Officers, at one point, jumping out of windows in order to escape, and then the calls came in for backup, for extra help.

Philadelphia police descended on the scene, SWAT, negotiators came down here as well, trying to get this suspect to give himself up. That did not happen. At every turn, they were met by gunfire.

At this point, we're told that there are still two officers who are barricaded inside the residence. They are said to be on the second floor, holding three prisoners.

At one point, though, four women, who were on the second floor, police actually helped them escape, those women saying that they were very thankful for police for helping them.

At one point, at about 7 o'clock tonight, police tweeted out that they were trying to engage with the suspect, basically telling the suspect that the police were going to be OK, and just to give himself up. But again, at this point, for the past hour or so, Anderson, they've been met by silence. So, this stand-off continues, Anderson.

COOPER: And Jason, just to be clear, when the Police Commissioner spoke, which was right at the top of the 8 o'clock hour, one hour ago, he really wouldn't specify whether it was one shooter or perhaps somebody else involved--


COOPER: --as well. I assume, at this point there's no new details on whether they've been able to narrow that down.

CARROLL: That is correct. And, as you can imagine, you know, with situations like this, with so much going on, so many different law enforcement agencies down here in the ground, you get a lot of conflicting, or sometimes, varying information, it takes a while for folks to come together, and - and confirm sort of details about what's going on.

Take the number of officers that were injured in this. I mean, that's a perfect example. At one point, we were told it was two, then it was four, then it was five, then we were told six, and then a seventh officer also injured, when he was trying to get down here at the scene, and was involved in some sort of an accident.

So, as you can imagine a lot of different moving parts. But we can tell you, at least since we've been out here for the past 40 minutes or so, silence, no gunfire, but police still actively trying to engage the suspect holed up inside.

COOPER: Well that's certainly good because for three hours, it seems like, there had been random gunfire, many rounds, according to - to - to police, and some of them apparently hit the - the SWAT vehicle.

Jason, we'll check in with you. Let's check back in with Senior Justice Correspondent, Evan Perez. Federal law enforcement, I believe, there were some talk that ATF, FBI might be either on the scene or coming there.


This is a - a typical situation, obviously. You have a very active situation with active shooter, essentially, who is firing at police officers. You have officers barricaded. So basically, it's an all- hands-on-deck situation.

You could see actually from some of the early scenes that we're showing you there, you can see that you - you had even undercover officers, officers in shorts, showing up at the scene, trying to figure out how they can help.

And at this point, as - as Jason pointed out, because it's - it's been silent, you know, it's - it kind of changes what the strategy might be if you're the SWAT officers who are going to be the ones who are going to go in there.

You know, early on, one of the things I heard from sources was the - the - the concern was that this is a suspect or suspects, again, because we don't know how many, who wanted to die, essentially, suicide by cop, and then take as many officers as possible.

And so, that's one of the things that they were trying to guard against. Of course, you have the complication of - of a couple of officers who still remain in that building, and the shooter has all of the tactical advantage.

[21:05:00] They know exactly the layout. They know exactly where to hide. And so, the police are - were - were dealing with a much more complicated situation than you usually have in this. Again, this began with narcotics officers going to that building. This is an area just north of Center City, Philadelphia.

And - and so, at this point now, I think they're going to wait out while to see if they can hear any other sign of life from inside that building, and then figure out how to get in there to try to extricate those officers, protect those people who are still in the building, and get the - the shooter or shooters who are still there.

COOPER: Yes. Some of those officers, who we saw running in shorts, I think they're bike - bike officers that were involved--

PEREZ: Right.

COOPER: --in the - the narcotics raid initially or - or serving of the warrant. Evan, thank you. Joining us now is former--

PEREZ: Sure.

COOPER: --Philadelphia Police Commissioner, Charles Ramsey, and retired FBI Supervisory Special Agent, James Gagliano, both CNN Law Enforcement Analysts, also by phone, the former Commander of the NYPD Hostage Negotiation Team, Jack - Jack Cambria.

Commissioner Ramsey, we - we spoke an hour ago. The longer this goes on, what does that mean in terms of, does it change police strategy? Does - do the odds start to shift in favor of the police given that they have night vision equipment? How does it alter things?


The police will be very patient as long as they don't believe the two officers trapped inside are in eminent danger. That's very important, because if they are, then, obviously, they have to take some kind of action. So, they'll continue to try to negotiate best they can.

Over time, I learned that the officers involved in the search warrant were from our Narcotics Strike Force. They - they deal with street- level type drugs. Their Narcotic Field Unit deals with the larger drugs.

And some of those officers you saw running with shorts could very well have been Strike Force Officers too because they also do bike patrol so.

But right now, things are pretty much status quo. They still don't know for sure if it's one or two shooters. They know, obviously, for sure, they got one. But the negotiators aren't able to make contact with this guy.

I just checked with someone five minutes ago, and he's still not - not - not talking. Pick up the phone, hang up, sort of situation, which is not good at all.

COOPER: Mr. Cambria, as a hostage negotiator yourself with the NYPD, what - what do you do in that situation? The person you call, the person hangs up, I mean, how do you establish any kind of communication?

JACK CAMBRIA, RETIRED COMMANDING OFFICER OF THE NYPD HOSTAGE NEGOTIATION TEAM: Well as it is - as it is - first off, good evening, and thank you for having me. But as it stands now is time is on our side.

Unless the SWAT Team can articulate or the Incident Commander can articulate a reason for going in, they're hard-pressed to do so. You know, we have two officers, as we know it now, still inside with the individual, and just keep trying.

So, I think the main tactic now or strategy is going to come from the two officers who are inside that room, by maintaining their composure, and not trying to beat that trigger squeeze, you know, and that's some of the dangers that we - we worry about.

In fact, in 2002, we had a situation right here in New York City, where we had one of our police detectives held hostage in a precinct station house, and the same thing, had a gun to his head, and the - the main - the main thing that saved the day on that was the detective maintaining his composure inside that room.

COOPER: When - when - I mean this was a serving a warrant on - drug- related warrant, if - if a suspect - if a person who is barricaded in, who's already been shooting, if they are on some sort of a narcotic, that - I mean that is a wild card that as a negotiator has got to be extremely difficult to kind of handle.

CAMBRIA: Well, sure. You know, that always complicates the, you know, the issues when someone's rational state is impacted by the influence of either narcotics or alcohol, so that, you know, that alters their state - their mental state.

And there's going to come a point in time that there's absolutely no, I would think at least, there's going to become - come a point in time where there's no communication at all that the police are going to have to start, you know, you know, kind of probing and - and seeing what information they can gather that might be going on inside that room.

COOPER: James, this is a densely populated area. There have been shots now being fired for hours, according to police, from - from at least one shooter inside this building. Do they just let that continue and - and as long as the area is, you know, secure and cleared out of people who might be hit?

JAMES GAGLIANO, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, RETIRED FBI SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT: The important thing right now are the two police officers that are trapped inside, and if there's anybody else that's trapped inside with them, because you don't want this to turn into a hostage stand-off. That changes the calculus immeasurably.

Look, Jack Cambria wrote the book on hostage negotiation.

[21:10:00] If I was going to talk to this guy, if this guy is watching CNN, I'd turn to him and say, "Six police officers are shot. Nobody has died. You haven't murdered anybody right now. Shut this thing down. Talk to us. Help us understand what the issues are, what your grievance is. If it's going to jail, let's talk about that."

And then as a SWAT Team Officer, I'd take a step back and say, while that's going on, we're trying to establish communication, no communication is bad. You have to get some type of communication.

I've got to have a plan for a hasty assault, in the event that the - that something changes on the inside or this guy charges at the cops, or starts shooting at the window.

To your point, densely populated area, we're not talking about handguns. We're talking about rifle rounds. They travel 2,800 feet per second, and they travel long distances. We've got to make sure that we've cleared out that neighborhood far and wide.

COOPER: Jack, you know, in movies, you see often, you know, conflict between the Hostage Negotiator and the SWAT - SWAT Commander on the scene, and they both have different strategies, and - and different beliefs. Is that what happens in real life?

You - you were saying that the, you know, the SWAT person on the scene would have to make, you know, a, you know, a good case for why they need to go in. And if they can't, you know, the - the status quo continues.

CAMBRIA: Well, then ultimately the (ph) decision comes down to the Incident Commander. So, the - usually the highest ranking member from the - from the police department on the scene.

And - and he or she will make their decisions based on input from the hostage negotiators, from the SWAT Team Commanders, and then - and plus their own personal observations. And then they will make the - the call that needs to be - be - be made.

So, you know, and the end result is always the same, the safe resolve of the incident, regardless if it's the hostage negotiators or from the side of the SWAT Team.

You know, sometimes - you're right. The tactic is a little bit different. Negotiators sometimes look for more emotional luring (ph) type of tactics whereas SWAT Teams maybe look for a little more dynamic approaches.

But ultimately, it's neither one of those - those units' decisions, but rather the Incident Commander, based on his or her many years of experience, and being, you know, the input that they're receiving.

COOPER: Commissioner, how long do you think police would likely keep talking to - to the shooter? Obviously, one thing, you know, if they are able to establish actual communication that then becomes a whole other chapter.

Then there's, you know, to - to everybody else's point, there is a discussion that can be had, what are your grievances, do you want to send in, you know, send in some food, it just seems like that would change it considerably.

If there is no communication, at what point do they decide enough is enough?

RAMSEY: Well they do have communication with the officers that are inside.

COOPER: Right.

RAMSEY: So, they'll at least know whether or not the officers are, you know, in eminent danger from this individual or not. So, they'll be patient until they know one way or the other.

And I have to say that the Philadelphia SWAT Team is one of the best in the country. Period! And as far as the hostage negotiators go, they work seamlessly.

You have the Incident Commander who is the Head of the SWAT Team, and also the Police Commissioner himself is there. So, you've got all the right people there in terms of decision-making, and they'll be as patient as they can possibly be.

But if things turn south in terms of the threat to either the officers or individuals that I understand they may have in custody from the narcotic raid, then change will - will - will happen, and they'll take action.

But again, there is no SWAT Team better than the one we got right here in Philadelphia.

COOPER: Commissioner Ramsey, appreciate it, James Gagliano, Jack Cambria, as well, it's a pleasure to talk to you, Jack. Thank you. We're going to continue to monitor the stand-off, bring you updates throughout this hour.

Up next, the Trump administration's attempt to redefine the words "Huddled masses yearning to breathe free." I'll speak with Madeleine Albright - Albright, former Secretary of State, as well as a former immigrant here, her thoughts.

I'll also talk to Presidential Candidate and Montana Governor Steve Bullock, about how he talks to Republicans about gun control, when all they want to do is just talk about it and leave the legislation in limbo.


GOV. STEVE BULLOCK (D-MT) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: --Donald Trump is a one-term President.



COOPER: We continue to monitor the active stand-off in Philadelphia. Police trying to negotiate with a suspect after six officers were shot and wounded.

We're also monitoring the controversy that's still following the Acting Director of Citizenship and Immigration Services, Ken Cuccinelli. He's trying to explain this comment that he made on NPR yesterday.


RACHEL MARTIN, JOURNALIST, CO-HOST OF NPR'S MORNING EDITION: Would you also agree that Emma Lazarus' words, etched on the Statue of Liberty, "Give me your tired, your poor," are also part of the American ethos?

KEN CUCCINELLI, ACTING U.S. CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION SERVICES DIRECTOR: They certainly are. "Give me your tired and your poor who can stand on their own two feet, and who will not become a public charge."


COOPER: Well however in his attempts to explain what he meant or clarify the matter with my colleague Erin Burnett, Cuccinelli made this declaration which many interpreted as giving the poem a kind of a Whites-only spin.


CUCCINELLI: Well, of course that poem was referring back to people coming from Europe, where they had class-based societies where people were considered wretched if they weren't in the right class.


COOPER: Cuccinelli was twice asked about that comment later on Fox News. He avoided direct answer both times.

Here to discuss it all is former Secretary of State, Madeleine Albright. Secretary Albright is the Author of the memoir, Read My Pins. She came to the United States as a refugee at the age of 11 after Communists took over what was then Czechoslovakia.

Madam Secretary, when you heard the President's immigration official, Ken Cuccinelli, say that the poem on the Statue of Liberty and all it represents is only for people who can "Stand on their own two feet," as someone who sailed into New York harbor, as a young immigrant, what went through your mind?


And I can tell you, I've been a refugee twice, once from the Nazis, and we were in England, and then we came to the United States when the Communists took over in Czechoslovakia. And I think that it is one of the most un-American things that I have ever heard, and I will remember seeing the Statue of Liberty, as we sail by.

And my father used to say that when we were in England, people would say, "We're so sorry your country has been taken over by a terrible dictator. You're welcome here. And when are you going home?"

And when we came to the United States, people said, "We're so sorry, your country's been taken over by a terrible system. You're welcome here. And when will you become a citizen?" And my father said that's what made America a different country.

And now, we are forgetting that great history of our country.

[21:20:00] COOPER: You know, Mr. Cuccinelli points to these laws as being a part of - of America's heritage, going back a 140 years. And while that may be true, it is not necessarily a - a good - a good thing.

I mean just because something is part of American heritage doesn't make it right. If you're having laws that signal women could be deported or pregnant women could be deported, as undesirable, that's not something I think anybody wants to have kids celebrating in schools.

ALBRIGHT: For sure not. And I also am not sure that one he can say that it's part of American heritage.

There have been various periods where Americans have been very generous in our immigration policy. And I do think that this country has benefitted by the diversity that has come through immigration. And so, I find it one of the most un-American statements I've ever heard.

And you pointed out that I have a Statue of Liberty pin on. I think the Statue of Liberty is weeping.

COOPER: The - there have been generations of immigrants who have come here, Irish, Italian, Russian, you know, German, many of whom were not wanted by some who were already here. And yet, the U.S. still welcomed them.

And they were able to - they came standing on their own two feet, to - to Mr. Cuccinelli, but not only that, they were able to carve out a - a life for themselves, and for their families. And now, the ancestors of those people are, you know, doing well.

And so, the idea that anybody who needs, you know, help when they first get here isn't going to contribute does not - I mean it just factually that doesn't make sense. ALBRIGHT: Absolutely not. And let me also say, Anderson, I think people do not leave the countries of their birth willingly. They do it because there's something terrible going on. They can't make a living in - in a way where they are threatened by various problems in their countries and it is hard.

I was little. But I can tell you that it's not easy. It wasn't easy even for my parents to come and pick up and come here.

And so, I do think people are - want to be a part of the country they're coming to. They want to contribute, they want to participate. Nobody wants to be a burden. People want to be free. They want to be able to live a decent life.

And so, I found what he said insulting, and something that he - I hope, he deeply, deeply regrets, and that it does not signify an entire view of this country, because I think the American people are incredibly generous, and do want to and - and really celebrate our diversity, don't hate it.

COOPER: Yes. I mean there certainly - it doesn't seem to be any expression of regret at this point.

What do you think - what kind of a message do you think does this send to the world because obviously, the - the Statue of Liberty, the Mother of Exiles, as Lazarus called her, sends a very clear message and - and intentionally so, to the tired, the poor, the wretched, the homeless around the world.

What do you think this kind of rewrite by this administration, what does that tell people around the world about the United States?

ALBRIGHT: Well I think there have been an awful lot of rewrites by this administration of what America really is, and something that's very damaging.

I obviously travel aboard a lot, and speak with a lot of foreigners, and we managed - have now managed to confuse everybody about what America is, what our role is, do we care about freedom and human rights? Do we care about other people?

And so, I think this just adds to what is happening in terms of America's image aboard, which is not something that is very useful to us, for our national security purposes, or our economic lives, or just because I see Americans as decent people. And so, I think it's hurting very, very much.

And then the kinds of language that's used by the President in terms of invasions, "People that are coming to ruin our country," terms that really more sound like war than what - what I think most people think about America as a country that has welcomed diversity.

COOPER: Secretary Madeleine Albright, appreciate it. Thank you.

ALBRIGHT: Thank you. COOPER: Well up next, startling words about rape and incest from a United States Congressman, the questionable logic of Representative Steve King, and the pushback he's getting from both Liberals and Conservatives.


COOPER: Well he's a Congressman known for explosive rhetoric, for racist statements. But today, on the subject of abortion, Republican Representative Steve King of Iowa offered a mind-boggling theory about all of mankind.


REP. STEVE KING (R-IA): What if we went back through all the family trees and just pulled those people out that were products of rape and incest? Would there be any population of the world left if we did that? Considering all the wars and all the rape and pillage that's taken place? And whatever happened to culture after society, I know I can't certify that, that I'm not part of a product of that.


COOPER: That was a actual Congressman, veteran lawmaker, suggesting that none of us would be here today had abortions always been allowed for rape and incest victims.

Those comments come exactly seven months after the House Minority Leader stripped King of all committee assignments for making racist comments in a New York Times interview. King says he was misquoted back then. Yet, he wasn't. He hasn't gotten his committee jobs back.

Our Phil Mattingly has more with us right now. So, what are King's fellow lawmakers saying about these latest comments? I saw something from Liz Cheney.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. The initial response actually was fairly similar to the one you just had, Anderson, at the end of that video, just kind of raising their hands, wondering why, as one Senior Republican aide told me, "I wish he'd just go away."

Senior Republican leaders, Congressional leaders in the House also saying, condemning the remarks, basically underscoring the fact that Steve King is known on Capitol Hill, and frankly, throughout the country, less for any policy achievement he's ever had, and more for inflammatory or outright racist remarks.

[21:30:00] Kevin McCarthy saying this isn't the first time he's had concerns. That's the Republican leader. The number two in the House Republican Conference, Steve Scalise saying that he found objectionable this - the comments.

And you mentioned Liz Cheney, who is one of the first Republicans, back in January, to call on Steve King to resign. She called the comments bizarre and appalling, and once again, reiterated that call to resign.

We also had Democratic Presidential candidates weighing in, in spades, calling on Steve King to resign, but more so, calling on people to donate to his competitor, the individual who lost by just three points in 2018, J.D. Shelton, now trying to raise more money for another effort to unseat Steve King.

He's in a very Conservative district in Northwest Iowa. But again, he outran Hillary Clinton's 2016 numbers by 24 points. Democrats hoping to capitalize on this politically right now, Anderson.

COOPER: So, I mean he's already been stripped of - of his committee assignments.


COOPER: There's not much more his fellow lawmakers can do, right?

MATTINGLY: Yes. And I - and I think that's why you get the initial response of everybody just kind of throwing their hands up in the air. Now there is something Republican leaders could do.

They could strip him - they could expel him from the Conference. They would need two-thirds of their House Republicans to vote on doing that for that to happen. There's no sense right now that's going to happen.

And Steve King, frankly, might be saved by the fact the Republican lawmakers aren't in town right now, and perhaps three, four weeks from now, people aren't talking about this anymore.

But he has already been condemned on the House floor in a vote for those comments related to White supremacy that you talked about earlier. He has not been censured on the floor, so that is a possibility as well.

But right now, there's no clear sign that anything's going to happen other than people hoping, and this includes Republicans, that he loses. There is a Republican primary challenger that he has that has already raised more money than him, there's some hope that he could be taken out in a primary by some national Republicans.

But he's already won nine terms. He's figured out a way to stick around on Capitol Hill, Anderson.

COOPER: Yes. Phil Mattingly, thanks very much.

Want to bring in CNN Political Commentator Karen Finney. She worked on Hillary Clinton's 2016 Presidential Campaign, also CNN Political Commentator, Mia Love. She's a former Republican Congresswoman from Utah.

Congresswoman Love, as someone who worked in the House with Congressman King, when you heard this latest stuff, what - I mean were you surprised?


As a matter of fact, the only thing that is shocking is that he is still a Member of Congress where people like Barbara Comstock and Mimi Walters and Claudia Tenney aren't on the GOP side. It's one of the prime examples why it's so important to have women representing - represented in Congress in both sides - on both sides of the aisle.

Think about this. Liz Cheney was the first person. If it weren't for Liz Cheney, I don't think he would have lost his committee assignments.

So, this is after years and years of nobody doing anything, and then finally saying, "OK, well we're going to strip you of your committee assignments," which they should have done a long time ago.

COOPER: Yes. I mean, Karen, to - to - to Mia's point, you know, it is the latest in a very long line of offensive comments.


COOPER: In 2017, he said, you know, we can't restore our civilization with somebody else's babies.

FINNEY: Right.

COOPER: Why do you think the - the - the people in his district in Iowa keep reelecting him?

FINNEY: You know, as Phil was mentioning, it's a very Conservative district. I would hope though that it - it - finally, folks will feel like they have an alternative. I think part of the challenge has been that he hasn't had a serious alternative.

But I do think we need to remember that this is, you know, this - he was also bragging that Donald Trump approves of what he says, and any - there is some truth to that, and there is some truth to Trump believing that there are people in this country who are going to support, maybe don't fully support those kind of statements, because that's a really tough one to - to back up.

I mean I don't think Mr. King was even thinking about how about Native Americans, who were raped, slaves who were raped, I mean that's - is that really what he's--

LOVE: He doesn't think at all.

FINNEY: Well - well clearly, that's true. But it - but it does say something. Look, he has gotten reelected. And I certainly think that the people in his district have to ask themselves, "Is that who you really want representing you on the national stage?"

COOPER: Yes, Congresswoman Love, and - and--

LOVE: Think about what he said.

COOPER: Go ahead, sorry.


LOVE: Think about what he said. He's pretty much saying that we needed to have rape and incest in order to populate the United States.

I mean that is exactly what he's saying. Not only does he lack the ability to even make policy decisions at all, but he doesn't even have the ability to know what to say, when to say it.


LOVE: I mean these are things that are in his mind, and it's manifested into his words, and I'm telling you, what ends up happening is that it manifests - manifests itself into your actions, and that becomes your legacy.

FINNEY: Yes. But--

LOVE: He is not good for the Republican Party. He is not good for America.

FINNEY: But Congresswoman--

LOVE: And I hope that they get rid of him.

FINNEY: But all due respect Congresswoman, you were talking about how important it is for the Republicans to have women. Here's the thing.

Comments like that are part of the reason that your party is losing among women voters, particularly in the suburbs, as we saw in 2018, because the - President Trump hasn't said anything quite that horrible, but it sure have been pretty close, and in terms of the misogyny that a comment like that represents, and the lack of respect for women.

[21:35:00] I mean we even saw after what happened in Georgia and Alabama, people said, "Hold on. That's too harsh to say that exceptions for rape and incest aren't acceptable." Majority of this country, seven in 10 Americans believe Roe v. Wade is settled law.

So, when you have a party and you have Members of Congress, not all as far down the spectrum of crazy as Steve King, defending those kinds of things, I mean I've talked to Republican women who feel like--


FINNEY: --they can't run as a Republican, and defend some of these things.

COOPER: Congresswoman?

LOVE: I can tell you right now that to put the reason why women aren't supporting the party is because of Steve King, I think it's absolutely, I think it's ludicrous. I think one of the things that we have-- (CROSSTALK)

FINNEY: I think I'd say your party is out of touch.

COOPER: Let her finish. Let her finish.

LOVE: Wait a minute. One of the - one of the issues that we have is myself and a whole bunch of other women who have been standing up against people like Steve King are the ones that have been targeted by the Democrat Party. And that's a problem.

Now, you either have to decide whether you want to be - whether you want to be right on the issues or whether you want to be the party that has power. And that is one of the things that we kept talking about.

Some of the people that have been big - big - huge people that have been against the President are the ones that are not Members of Congress any longer. So, we have to make sure we watch who we're actually targeting. You either want par - power in - in Washington or you want the right people in Congress.

FINNEY: Well I don't think we've heard Republicans stand up very often to speak out against President Trump. And I think what you've seen frankly is more - you've seen House Members, Republicans decide it's not worth trying to run in this environment.

That's not the same thing as standing up for your values and standing up against this President. And we have not seen that as much as we should, I would say.

LOVE: See, you've made this a Republican/Democrat thing where, to me, this is a right or wrong thing. I am a - I have always been pro-life, in - in - except in the cases of rape, incest, and the life of a mother. That has to do with people.


LOVE: That has to do with people who have been victims. And so, we need to keep it away from being whether it's a Republican issue or a Democrat issue, and make sure that we're taking care of people, and taking care of people's issues.


LOVE: This is what's wrong with Washington.

FINNEY: Well you're the one who--

COOPER: I - I got to - I got to - I got to--

LOVE: Take it away from the parties and just talk about the issues.

FINNEY: You're the one who made it an issue about the party.

COOPER: --I got to leave it here. I got to leave it here. I'm simply out of time.


COOPER: Karen Finney, Congresswoman Mia Love, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

LOVE: Thank you.

COOPER: We're continuing to monitor the stand-off in Philadelphia.

Also just ahead, a discussion with Presidential Candidate, Steve Bullock, the Democratic Governor of a Red state, we'll talk about how you end the stalemate in Washington on gun control.


BULLOCK: --that it is an honor.



COOPER: We have some new information, some breaking news to report on two officers barricaded in a house where a shooter is in a stand-off with police, after shooting six other police officers.

Former Philadelphia Police Commissioner, Charles Ramsey, joins us now with the information. What have you learned?

RAMSEY: Well, I've learned that the two officers are out, and they're safe. I don't know if they were injured or not. I don't believe so. I don't know the status of the people that they had in custody. We're not even sure they actually had someone in custody or not.

But apparently, they were able to slip out or there was some distraction, I'm not really clear on that. But I heard from two different individuals who were actually on the scene now that the two officers are out of the house. So, that's a good - that's good.

COOPER: And Chief Ramsey, I mean just explain the - the - not only is that great for those officers, but it also changes the tactical situation or the potential tactical situation for police. It gives them more options because those--

RAMSEY: It does.

COOPER: --the safety of those two officers is no longer at risk, and that was a - obviously a top priority.

RAMSEY: Yes. See, the problem is even if the officers were in eminent danger, and SWAT had to go in, I mean you're under risk of SWAT officers getting hurt.

COOPER: Right.

RAMSEY: So, I mean, you know, there's - there's-- COOPER: By the way - by the way, Chief, I - I'm just getting--

RAMSEY: --no real good way of making a forced entry.

COOPER: Yes. By the way, Chief, I'm just getting word from another source that it was a SWAT Team that helped get those two officers out.

RAMSEY: OK. Well, that makes some sense. They probably distracted the - the gunman, and then slipped in, and were able to get those guys out of there, which is a good thing. So, that does change the dynamic.

So, we talked about patience and all that sort of thing, all that's fine, at least you're not worried about your - your officers or someone else getting harmed while inside. But we don't know if there's anybody else inside with this guy.

I'm hearing this could have been like a little rooming house or something. I know they should have blueprints. But sometimes, these landlords will make alterations to a property, and not necessarily tell the city about it.

COOPER: Right.

RAMSEY: So, I don't know what the structure looks like inside. But at least you got the police officers are out, and that changes things considerably.

COOPER: Yes. Chief, I want to bring in Jason Carroll, in Philadelphia, who's on the scene. He's joining us by phone, also is the former Commander of the NYPD Hostage Negotiation Team, Jack Cambria.

Jack, let me just go first to you, just in terms from a hostage negotiation standpoint, the fact that, as we said, with the Chief, the fact those two officers are out, and early reports are a SWAT Team helped get them out, how does that change things in terms of how you might approach or deal with the - the - the shooter or shooters?

CAMBRIA: Well, first, I think the - the two officers that just were released or got out on their own, or with the help of the SWAT Team, they're going to be providing a lot of intelligence of what is going on inside there.

And - and based on what is told to - to the - the SWAT Team, to the negotiators, and to the Incident Commander, and to the Police Commissioner, of course, is going to determine the next steps.

Is there anybody else in the - from the family inside the house? You know, so this is the information they're going to be gathering from the two officers that just got out, valuable intelligence, you know, that's going to be coming out of there.

And then the other reason, I think the Police Commissioner just mentioned it, I just came on, and I got the tail-end of it.

But I think he said very correctly that when police officers go through - through that door, they're entering into a very hostile environment, where there's a 50-50 chance, at best, of coming out of that safely. So now, police officers going into that location are - are in jeopardy as well.

So, the best - I think the best approach right now is to continue the negotiation process until, you know, it's exhausted. And - and the other - of course, the other possibility that maybe he even shot himself. So, these are the things that they're going to have to, you know, determine before making their next strategy.

COOPER: Yes. Jason Carroll is on the scene. Jason, have you seen any sign of what just - what just happened?

CARROLL: Strangely enough, Anderson, it's been very, very quiet, quiet for the past hour or so.

And pretty remarkable, when you consider at one point those officers who were inside on the second floor, and then we were hearing reports that the shooter was actually on the first floor, shooting through the walls and shooting outside.

[21:45:00] So, incredible that those officers were able to get out unscathed. Also a bit more information for you, coming from my colleague, CNN's Evan Perez, who - who reports that one of the suspects, if there is indeed one, and again, investigators seem to be a little bit unsure about that, but was the subject of a separate federal law enforcement investigation, unclear what that investigation is.

As you recall, at about 4:30, that's when officers came out here, serving a search warrant. It was narcotics officers, who were serving that warrant, but now we're getting more information about the suspect still barricaded inside.

COOPER: Right. All right, Jason.

CARROLL: Anderson.

COOPER: Jason Carroll, appreciate it. We'll come back to you. Commissioner Charles Ramsey and Jack Cambria, as well, appreciate it.

Up next, want to talk with Democratic Presidential Candidate, Steve Bullock, Governor of a Red state, Montana. We'll get his thoughts on the gun debate as it stands now, and whether both parties can come to the table on some sort of new laws.


COOPER: We're following that stand-off in Philadelphia. We're just learning that two officers trapped inside the barricaded house are no longer trapped. That's the good news. At least one heavily-armed individual has shot six police officers, is now in a stand-off, continues to be, with authorities.

America's arsenal has been a contentious topic, obviously, and it's not even clear how many weapons this person has. They do seem to have a long gun. It's been 10 days since the shooting in Dayton, a 11, since the massacre in El Paso.

Lawmakers in Washington are currently in talks but they are effectively in a stalemate. The question is can anything get - get done and do they have the will?

I want to discuss the stalemate. Montana Governor and Democratic Presidential Candidate, Steve Bullock joins me now. Thanks so much for - for being with us, appreciate it.

BULLOCK: It's great to be with you, Anderson.

COOPER: Do you, you know, the President is now talking about meaningful background checks. Previously, after Parkland, he talked about raising the - the age for someone to buy a long gun.


COOPER: And, you know, strong background checks. And nothing happens.

BULLOCK: Well I think back to within two weeks of Parkland, he had all the nation's Governors at the White House. He said, it's almost taunting, "You shouldn't be afraid of the NRA. And it's time to take action."

I have lowered the flags seven times since then. Now look, and I'm a gun owner. The vast majority of gun owners, as an example, majority of NRA members saying like universal background checks, we should do everything we can to make sure the guns don't end up in the wrong hands.

COOPER: You used to be against universal background checks. Where - when did you change?

BULLOCK: You know, I think I said - also look at it more of it's just a public health issue, if we could ever not look at this as a political issue. When I was growing up, the NRA, it was a gun safety, it was a hunting, it was a sporting organization.

COOPER: Right.

BULLOCK: Now, it's nothing more than a political organization. As I've continued to be lowering flags, as we have seen what's happening along the way, steps like, you know, universal background checks or red flag laws, even Indiana passes, there are common sense things that we could do.

And I think now I'm even calling on gun owners to say we don't want guns in the wrong hands. We don't want our kids to be afraid in school, and we ought to be able to take some steps.

COOPER: Assault weapons ban which, I believe, you support, many Democrat - Democratic candidates do, you know, the critics of it say, well look, the final report that was written, the official final report essentially said we can't really, you know, crime did go down, but we can't say it was because of the assault weapons ban because there are so many assault weapons already out there. BULLOCK: Yes.

COOPER: That the man wasn't in place long enough to have an effect.

BULLOCK: Yes. I mean but we are also at a point where even major sporting goods chains are no longer selling these. They're not used for hunting. They're not used for self-defense.

And if a Dixon Walmart can stop, we ought to as well because it's also just that and the larger magazines. I mean, A, they're not used for sporting and self-defense, and B, when we have these shootings after shootings with assault weapons, it's time to say we got to try something new.

COOPER: You, I mean, you - again, you're in a Red state. So, I'm interested in the conversation that you have with your constituents. I got a friend in - in Texas who, you know, firmly believes that Obama was coming for guns and, you know, and - and he's a good person, and - and that was his belief. You must hear that all the time.

BULLOCK: Well and it's interesting like a sporting goods store owner did say to me like, "I'm really going to miss Barack Obama." And I'm like "Why?" "Oh, we sold more guns and ammo than ever before, even though nothing meaningful happened."

COOPER: Right.

BULLOCK: And I think that's what's happened more with the National Rifle Association, really trying to use this to scare people, to put fear in their hearts.

But when most folks turn around, and think, "Yes, we could actually take meaningful steps, if we get - ever get the politics out of it," like I keep hoping that this moment, where, as the President speaks, as more Republicans are speaking up that we can get beyond the politics, and think about how do we better keep our kids - kids safe.

COOPER: So, if you were President, I mean how do you, you know, the - the President Donald Trump said he's the, you know, great negotiator, get him in a room, it takes 15 minutes. Obviously, that's not working out. That's not the case, anything, any of that.

How do you - how do you actually get the people to come together?

BULLOCK: Well look, my legislature is 60 percent Republican. If I spend all my time just talking to the individual legislators, I'd never get anything done. I think the next President, sure you try to build relationships in Washington D.C., but you got to take the case to America.

You should be spending so much time in Kentucky, as you should Washington D.C., because once people are finally saying "Enough," once people are saying - you know, I think of my sixth grade son, who actually, his first week of school, new school.

I said, "So, how was it?" He told me he thinks, it goes, "I know where to go in case of an active shooter."


BULLOCK: No sixth grader in this country, that's what they should be left with.

COOPER: Governor, I just want us - we - there's a press conference here in Philly.

BULLOCK: Oh, great.

COOPER: Let's just watch.


[21:55:00] RICHARD ROSS JR., COMMISSIONER, PHILADELPHIA POLICE DEPARTMENT: The two police officers that were trapped upstairs as well as three prisoners, and they were all taken out safely, thus far.

However, this male still holed up inside here. We're talking to him, for one of the first times, basically no more than 30 or 40 minutes ago, making a little bit of progress. It appeared that his attorney was on a three-way line, was trying to assure him that, you know, we weren't here to harm him. But after that, conversation ceased.

But we do know that he's - he's still alive, just trying to appeal to him, you know, that, you know, he's got a reason that he needs to come out and surrender right now.

We have gone from a hostage situation to a barricade because all of the hostages were taken out safely. And I can't say enough about what all the responders did, but most importantly, what SWAT did, and all their support, Homeland Security and everyone there that was involved as well as everyone that assisted in negotiations.

But again, we still got a situation that is not completely resolved. We still want to get this male out obviously unscathed. We don't know if he's injured. In my conversations with him, it doesn't appear that he is, but I'm not sure.

So, we will keep you apprised, but didn't want to keep you in the dark about where we were, and have you just have to speculate about the status regarding the police officers and the hostages.

We are very, very lucky with six police officers shot in one incident. It is remarkable that, you know, I believe a couple of them have been released already. And so, it is nothing short of astounding that in such a confined space that we didn't have more of a tragedy than we did.

So, we're so thankful that they were able to get out. We were able to get the other folks out. They - the prisoners that were in there are also unharmed, and I don't even know miraculously how that happened, because there were multiple gunshots fired.

He fired shots while I was on location. He hasn't done so in a while. So, we're optimistic that that means he's starting to understand that, you know, there's some benefit to him coming out and surrendering, but we still don't know if that's going to be the case.

So, I'm in a better position to take some more questions right now than I was before because our people are around there, and they'll keep me updated as we go forward, all right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many officers have been discharged? How many officers have been discharged?

ROSS JR.: How many? You know what, all of the - OK, so I've just walked around the corner. That's - that's my update. I never even got a chance to get up to Einstein, and - and regrettably, I feel bad about that, and I apologize to those officers and their families that I didn't get a chance to do that.

I hope they can understand why, given the circumstances with two of their fellow comrades that were trapped inside, so my apologies to them for not being able to see how they were doing while they were in the E.R., all right?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just to - just to clarify, one officer at Einstein has been admitted.

ROSS JR.: One has been admitted, they're telling me, one has been admitted in Einstein.


ROSS JR.: But that was a car accident, apparently. Apparently, all the gunshot wounds these officers will be able to - you know, so we - we'll clear all that up as we go - as we go forward, particularly relative to names and so forth.

But, right now, we need to get you the circumstance. As you know, this was a narcotics warrant that - that went awry, almost immediately, and the officers came under fire.

The reason they were in different parts of the houses is protocol, the way they search to make sure safely that they can secure every part of the house as quickly as they can. And unfortunately, some got trapped upstairs, and those are the ones who we're talking about.

I think they were taking gunfire upstairs as well. So again, it's - it's nothing short of a miracle that we don't have multiple officers killed today. So, we're so thankful today.

Somebody over here have questions?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did the two officers get out?

ROSS JR.: Well SWAT did that. They were so adept at doing that. They've got a skillset that they were able to utilize tonight, and they were able to use stealth to do it, and it was absolutely remarkable the way they did it, to watch that unfold and to - to do so, in large part, without - and being aware, or at least we don't think he was aware, I mean.

And so, their bravery as well as the bravery of every other officer that, you know, took fire today because they took fire today as well, you know, just about everybody at that scene did at some point in time.

So, we've got - once we get him out, we will have a very, very expansive crime scene that we will be at for hours and hours, as you can clearly see. It's clearly not the most optimal circumstance.

But obviously, officers did return fire, initially. And they're - there were different bouts of fires. He was firing throughout the course of this encounter, all right? All right, folks.

MAYOR JIM KENNEY, PHILADELPHIA: I had the opportunity over the last number of hours to listen to the transmissions on the radio. And I could tell you, our police officers are not only talented and - and but brave.

That was - that was an amazing intense number of hours, going back and forth, listening to gunshots over the radio, listening to officers whispering upstairs, because they didn't want the shooter to know where they were located. It was - it was just a riveting, riveting experience.

But our officers need help. They need help. They need help with gun control. They need help with keeping these weapons out of these people's hands. I mean I told you earlier the two little boys that were - the officer had his head grazed, just a little bit more and--