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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES

President Trump Defends Police While Ordering Modest Reforms; Interview With Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms (D); Statue Protest Leads To Shooting And Arrest; Senior CDC Official: Pence Is "Cherry- Picking" Data, As COVID-19 Cases Increase In States Across The Country; Inside The Police-Free Zone; Trump Admin Sues Bolton Over Memoir. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired June 16, 2020 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: We are hoping for Mr. Gugino's full recovery. Very, very saddened to hear this development. Thank you all for watching. It's time now for AC 360.

[20:00:10]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: And good evening on a day that saw the President take action on policing injustice in this country. We'll get to a range of views tonight on what that action is and whether it addresses the killing and systematic lack of justice for African- Americans that have sent people into the streets for the last 22 days now.

We begin though with two incidents. One of them deadly, surrounding those largely peaceful protests, and contrary to the claims of the President, they are not the work of Antifa.

This one, at a protest of a Spanish Conquistador statue in Albuquerque, thankfully was not deadly. You see, the alleged shooter and scuffle and then you hear what sounded like gunshots.

[VIDEO CLIP PLAYS]

COOPER: One person was wounded in that incident, and two others, though involving a suspect in California, two members of law enforcement are dead. CNN's Drew Griffin has the latest on that and the shadowy group that the alleged killer is said to belong to. So, what do we know about these armed people showing up a protest?

I think Drew's shot is frozen. We'll try to get contact with him again.

There are again, these two incidents we're talking about. One was in Albuquerque. The other is in California. We'll try to get Drew back on it.

Now, the President and what to make the action he took on police reform today after meeting families of the victims of police violence and racially motivated shootings, he signed an Executive Order calling for a range of Justice Department guidelines and incentives for local police departments seeking what the order calls, quote, "independent credentialing," end quote to certify, they meet higher standards for the use of force and de-escalation training.

The standards would also ban the use of chokeholds quote except if an officer is like is at risk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Reducing crime and raising standards are not opposite goals. They are not mutually exclusive. They work together. They all work together.

That is why today, I'm signing an Executive Order encouraging police departments nationwide to adopt the highest professional standards to serve their communities. These standards will be as high and as strong as there is on Earth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Reaction has run the gamut. Joining us now, CNN political commentator and former senior Obama administration adviser, Van Jones; also CNN political commentator, Bakari Sellers, author of the new book, "My Vanishing Country: A Memoir;" and retired Los Angeles Police Sergeant Cheryl Dorsey, author of "Black and Blue: The Creation of A Social Advocate."

Van, you've been pushing for police reform for decades. What do you make of this Executive Order?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I think it's pushing in the right direction, but the main action is going to be in Congress. The Bill that the house passes, hopefully next week, we'll see what the Senate does with it. That's the main action.

All the good stuff is there. The danger was if you would have the President either do nothing or do something small and then, you know, say we can't have more legislation.

What you got today is, I think, a sign that we are winning. Donald Trump has put himself on record saying that we need to reform the police department and the two things I'm excited about, 20 years now, we've been asking for a registry of bad cops. The Federal government tracks everything on Earth, except bad cops. We're now moving in that direction.

We've also been asking, can you please send people who can talk people down and not shoot people down when they are in a mental health crisis? Those two things are now much more likely to happen than they were before. Nobody is going to be satisfied even if we pass the big Bill, we're going to pass it in the House, I hope.

But what I will say is this. We are winning. Donald Trump had no plan a month ago to work on this issue at all. The fact that we are now in the direction of moving forward, I think, it is good and the fact that law enforcement is with him, I'll give it over to Bakari, I know he sees it differently.

But I want to say one thing, as hard as we worked in the Obama years, we never got law enforcement to come to the table and stay there. The idea that law enforcement is standing behind Trump on stuff that we've been asking for, for decades, I think is progress. It's the caboose. It's not the engine, but it's on the right track.

COOPER: Bakari, do you -- where do you stand on this? Is it a step in the right direction?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So we've made progress, but we still have so far to go. And, you know, we have a fierce sense of urgency now. I think that is what people are having during this moment.

The tolerance of the legislative process is not as high as it once was because just as we buried George Floyd, we have another case in Atlanta, Georgia, and so people -- to go back to King's "I Have a Dream" speech harkening where we want that fierce urgency of now and, you know, the way that I look at this and, yes, I actually agree with Van on the point that we are going in the right direction.

[20:05:12]

SELLERS: But the way that I look at this is, with the President of the United States, after we had people who were beaten on the Edmund Pettus Bridge, et cetera, they saw the dogs and the violence in '64 and '65.

He went and put his imprint on -- Johnson put his imprint on the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act after nine people were slaughtered in Mother Emanuel AME Church.

Nikki Haley put her imprint on the South Carolina State Legislature and we had the flag come down. I'm not sure anyone can say that Donald Trump has put his imprint on anything, although we still remain hopeful, although not optimistic.

Today's legislation or today's executive action, you know, it was -- it was a lot of pomp and circumstance, but at the end of the day, I truly felt sorry for those families and I know Van has put in decades of work.

And I think Van would agree with me when he says that we still have work to do on this front.

COOPER: Yes, Sergeant Dorsey, you spent 20 years as an officer and Sergeant in the LAPD patrolling the streets. I'm wondering what your reaction is, and one of the things that the President said today, and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the exact quote right in front of me, but it was words to the effect of, you know, good police officers, you know, they hate bad police officers more than anybody else.

The problem seems to be they may know who the bad police officers are, but police, there's no incentive for them to actually stand up and turn in or point fingers at fellow officers.

In fact, if they do, they are often the ones who bear the brunt of that.

CHERYL DORSEY, RETIRED LAPD POLICE SERGEANT: Well, I find the entire dog and pony show offensive because listen, every police chief who wants to create an opportunity and a safe space for officers to report, errant officers, they can do that.

And to suggest that somehow creating a national database is going to make things better -- these officers were already on a database locally. They know who Chauvin was. They know who Rolfe was. He had been involved in 12 prior incidents, Chauvin, 18.

And so unless and until they're ready to take affirmative action and hold these officers personally accountable, get them off their payroll, we're going to continue to have this issue, and to think that somehow being on a national database is going to prevent other departments from picking up a rogue Cop is equally disingenuous.

You have seven or eight police officers who just jumped ship on the Minneapolis Police Department. Why? Well, maybe because they know that there's a home for them over on the Mississippi Police Department where a Police Chief says he didn't have a problem with Chauvin shooting.

There's a major on the Tulsa police department who says more black folks need to be shot. Is these where these officers are fleeing to? They'll resign or they'll be given the gift of resignation rather than termination, and there's no real record about why they left.

So, I find it all offensive and it does nothing for day-to-day what we do on the ground as a patrol officer, I know this to be true, because I did it for 20 years.

COOPER: So in your opinion, what do you want to hear from the Federal government in terms of -- what do you want to see from Congress? What do you want to see as actual real change?

DORSEY: What I'd like to see is and I don't need it to happen at the national level, it can happen at the local level. How about we hold officers accountable?

Let's say this. If you have a license to drive, and you go out every day and you commit vehicular manslaughter, wouldn't DMV take your driver's license? Could you get more than three moving violations? Excessive speed, reckless driving without DMV removing your driver's license?

How about we decertify officers who are engaged in malfeasance. You need a POST certificate -- Peace Officer Standards and Training certificate to remain on the force. Don't give them the gift of resignation and fire them, yank their certificates so they can't move around like chess pieces.

Have police chiefs -- don't put the onus on the patrol officer to tell, make a police chief create an environment and a real whistleblower situation where officers can tell and won't be retaliated, won't be held -- won't not get help when you need. I mean, so there's a lot that can be done right there with the police

chief, and they don't do it.

JONES: Anderson, I just want to say, I agree 100 percent and actually, I think if you read the Executive Order, it actually is making the point that she is making.

The Executive Order is actually pointing in the direction of a national certification program. So you can't have cops tapping all over the place. And part -- and the database is a part of that.

I think one crazy thing is beginning to happen. We're actually in violent agreement from law enforcement to people who are who are critical of law enforcement as we have here. Law enforcement itself, the Trump administration, Nancy Pelosi saying get rid of the chokehold. Trump took steps in that direction.

In others words, there is an emerging continent of common ground. And I think we should actually be relatively relieved that it's showing there.

[20:10:10]

COOPER: Van, have you been hearing from -- I mean, Van, have you listened to police unions? Because that's really not the message coming from a lot of police unions out there.

JONES: Well, listen, I saw the FOP today standing beside the President signing an Executive Order that's pushing in the right direction. I know, Bakari is trying to get in. Listen, police unions have been a problem for a long time. But I've never seen the FOP stand beside the President on an order like this.

COOPER: Bakari, then we've got to go.

SELLERS: Yes, Anderson, if I may be just extremely brief. I don't want to -- I don't want to focus on the Executive Order too much today, because I actually don't agree that it's enforceable. I don't believe that it said a whole lot of anything, actually.

I mean, the push and going in the right direction is one thing, if the President of the United States actually wants to implement some of the changes we're talking about, what he does then is he actually outright bans many of these things or creates databases with the necessary funding.

Or he says these police departments and law enforcement agencies would not be able to get any Federal funding. What he did was he stopped short of that today. And I think that that is the biggest problem that people have, that much of what he did was unenforceable and we still have the bad behavior that we're trying to root out.

So yes, we're going we're going in a direction, we just have a far way to go.

COOPER: Bakari Sellers, Cheryl Dorsey and Van Jones, appreciate it. Thank you.

Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms announced reforms for her city on police use of force including guidelines and how it may be used and how it must be reported. She announced those reforms after the killing Friday of an unarmed black man, Rayshard Brooks by Atlanta police.

One officer has been fired, another placed on administrative leave. The District Attorney we spoke to yesterday says that any decision on charges could come as early as tomorrow.

Joining me now to talk about all of this is the Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms. Thanks, Mayor Bottoms for being with us. You cited the quote, "fierce urgency of now" as a driving force behind your decision to announce your own police reforms before President Trump's.

Now that you've seen what the President has put forward, do you think it's enough? What do you -- what are you hoping to change in Atlanta?

MAYOR KEISHA LANCE BOTTOMS (D), ATLANTA, GEORGIA: You know, Anderson, I don't usually hold out a lot of hope for what President Trump does, but I actually hope that he would do something substantive today, but he seems to get in his own way, even in rolling out this order, he doesn't mention race. He doesn't mention bias.

And then he went on some rambling tirade about school choice, and so it's difficult to take him seriously. I was glad to see the national database. I do think that is an important step. But there's so much more to be done.

And there was so much left undone from the plan that President Obama and Vice President Biden left on 21st Century Policing, and so in Atlanta and cities across this country, as always, we're still trying to figure it out on our own.

But even in Atlanta, we thought that we had 14 days at least for our recommendations from our Advisory Taskforce on use of force policies. And not even three days into the convening of our Taskforce, we had the killing of Rayshard Brooks.

And so we can't wait any longer, and we have to continue to push forward what policies in the same way we've done in Atlanta, but the reality is that it still won't bring this father back.

COOPER: You know, some of the things that activists have pointed to is getting rid of qualified immunity for police officers. It is obviously a very controversial issue, and also having more community involvement, or even separate community determination of, you know, of who the commanders are in a particular community.

A former police officer who is the President of Brooklyn -- he is the Brooklyn borough President here, Eric Adams, he has recommended communities actually being able to vote on the choices put forward by the city on who should be a commanding officer in a district.

I'm wondering, what do you make of the idea of more community involvement? BOTTOMS: I think community involvement is always helpful, but I think

you have to look at it city by city and make determinations in that regard.

But at the end of the day, again, going back to the plan for 21st Century Policing, it was very clear. Our police officers are to be guardians and not warriors in our communities. There is supposed to be a partnership with our communities and that trust has been broken across the country.

And it's unfortunate because we know that law enforcement plays an important role in our communities. In Atlanta, they are volunteering with our kids at our Promise Youth Centers and our Police Athletic League. So there are some positive relationships happening.

But then when the worst happens, like it did in Atlanta on Friday, and when you look at what happened with George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, and Ahmaud Arbery and so many names that I can't even list them, it tells you that the trust is broken and we've got to rebuild and reimagine and transform how we are policing in our communities across this country.

[20:15:17]

COOPER: Again, though, how is -- is there -- you know, is that a training issue? Is it a -- you know, a lot of protesters are talking about defunding police -- one calling for defunding the police, and I know you and I have talked about that before. Is that something you would even consider?

BOTTOMS: Well, you know, I think it's much more complicated than simply defunding a police department, and I've shared this with you before, Anderson. When I look at our police budget, I'm looking at pensions. I am looking at salaries, capitals, costs and workers compensation. I don't have a lot of fluff embedded into our police budget.

But we are reimagining our corrections budget. We have already transferred 60 percent of our corrections budget towards community based programming and personnel, and we're closing down our jail in Atlanta, turning it into a center of equity, wellness, and health. And so I think that you've got to look at where you're trying to go and then figure out how to get there.

What people are saying is we want more money towards our communities. We want to make sure that we -- that there's money left over for our community centers and for community programming.

And I think that's an important conversation. But it doesn't necessarily mean that it has to come out of a police budget line item, because that just may not be the practical way to achieve what we're all trying to achieve.

COOPER: Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms, I appreciate it. Thank you. We've solved our technical problem. We're going to go live next to Drew Griffin because what he is learning about some acts of violence at protests and against members of law enforcement and who is actually behind them is interesting. We'll go to him and just moment.

Also, a look at the protesters who created a police free zone in Seattle. The President is calling them domestic terrorists. We will have a report from inside that zone ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:21:14]

COOPER: Welcome back. We had some trouble with Drew Griffin's live shot at the top of the program. We believe we fixed it now. Drew before we go to you, I just want to play again this video of the shooting at the Conquistador statue in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

The alleged shooter, you see, there's a scuffle then you hear what sound like shots.

[VIDEO CLIP PLAYS]

COOPER: One person was wounded in the incident, and again, in another pair of incidents involving a suspect in California, two members of law enforcement are dead. The spotlight is on the group that that person belongs to allegedly. So, talk to me about these armed people showing up at protests.

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and we're seeing them all across the country. Anderson, self-assigning themselves as some kind of police role and coming very heavily armed. You see some of them with body armor as well, trying to be some sort of protector.

That's what police in New Mexico say Steven Baca was. He self-assigned himself to protect the statue. He is arguing with some of the protesters, then he is chased away. He pushes a woman to --

COOPER: This was a statute by the way that protesters wanted to take down.

GRIFFIN: That's absolutely right. So, he was going to defend this statue from being torn down for reasons we have yet to learn. But he was armed and he is being chased away.

He pushes a woman. That's when the protesters actually go after him. One of them with a skateboard gets him on the ground. That's when those shots ring out.

Like you said, Anderson, one of the protesters shot thankfully just wounded. But now look, other militia members armed to the teeth, rush around him, surround him sort of protect him and kind of quiet the situation, until the real police get there.

Those other militiamen, the New Mexico Civil Guard is what they're calling themselves say Baca is not one of them. They were they're doing some other kind of mission. The Governor of New Mexico, she wants none of this. She says there's

no room for any of these people with guns at these protests. Four people had 20 guns on them at this protest. They're just showing up very heavily armed -- Anderson.

COOPER: And then in California, there was an arrest of an Air Force service member who's allegedly part of a group known as the Boogaloo Movement.

GRIFFIN: That's absolutely right. This this is sort of frightening. Steven Carrillo is his name. He's a current Staff Sergeant in the U.S. Air Force. His job is to protect airplanes -- Air Force planes -- in some pretty scary places. Iraq, Syria. He's been in Kuwait and Afghanistan.

The F.B.I. says he gunned down a Federal Security Guard, wounded another Federal Security Guard at the Oakland County Courthouse with a homemade ghost gun that he made, a machine gun and then eight days later, shot and killed a Sheriff's Deputy in California who was coming to arrest him along with accomplice. This was all plotted and planned, they said.

And when they arrested him, when they confiscated all his gear, they found on social postings connected to this Boogaloo Movement. He was wearing insignia or patches connected to this Boogaloo Movement.

And even in a car jacked car, he wrote on the hood of the car in blood, some Boogaloo type of references, this Boogaloo Movement, this very kind of loose knit group believes, well, as far as I can tell, they believe in their love of guns, but they also believe that there is some kind of a Civil War or civil unrest approaching which they themselves are either going to start or protect the rest of the country from. It's very bizarre.

[20:25:04]

COOPER: And I mean, you've done reporting on this group. I mean, I've seen some of your reports in the past.

GRIFFIN: Yes. And that's why, you know, you stumble around trying to identify them even some of the experts who have tried to study them. They're a fairly recent group.

You see them at protests. We've seen them in Minneapolis, Indianapolis, Louisville, Kentucky. They are armed. They usually have some kind of a Hawaiian shirt or Hawaiian paraphernalia on along with all their armaments, but their political beliefs are wide, Anderson.

From very liberal to very conservative from pro-Trump to anti-Trump. The only thing that seems to unify them is this belief that there is civil unrest coming and they are going to be prepared for it. And they're at these protests, believing that they are somehow going to protect society from some kind of authority that's going to come in and try to take over the country.

COOPER: The line between protecting from civil unrest and actually causing civil unrest seems to be a very thin line.

Drew Griffin, appreciate it. Thanks.

Coming up next, the truth about how and where the coronavirus is spreading, including the city hosting the President's rally this weekend.

The truth and the untruth the President and the Vice President are spreading about it. We're keeping them honest ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:30:50]

COOPER: Well, there's no better B.S. detector out there than COVID-19. Just wait a few weeks and it tells you whether you've been truthful about it or not. The answer comes back in case counts hospitalization rates and its devastating impact on human lives.

And in this moment with the President's rally in Tulsa now just days away, you don't even need a B.S. detector to know the administration is not playing it straight. Now keeping them honest, let's be clear, there was progress to report today on a common steroids that shows signs of helping in some of the worst cases. And that is great news. And no, it's not the drug the President's been pushing which the FDA has now pulled its emergency use approval for.

Also in the good news category, there are a number of states, especially in the northeast, that truly have turned a corner. In New York, for example, according to data from Johns Hopkins University, you can see the curve is flattening out. Cases are doubling about every 12 months. But that's definitely not happening in states like Florida, in Texas and Arizona. Each of those states hit records for new cases today.

And it's not the case in Oklahoma either. Cases there are -- they're doubling every month. The curve, as you see is not only climbing but climbing more steeply than it was even a couple of weeks ago. Yet just yesterday, the President said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, Oklahoma has done very well. I just spoke to the governor. He's very excited about it. Governor Stitt who's done a terrific job. Mike, I think you can maybe speak to this. He's done a great job.

Oklahoma's at a very low number. They've done really fantastic work. They have a new, a pretty new, magnificent arena. As you probably have heard, we have a 22,000 seat arena. But I think we're going to also take the convention hall next door and that's going to hold 40,000.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: So just to remind you, I want to show you that chart again, because this is what those 62,000 people from all over the country will be facing in Tulsa. This is what the President and the Vice President are being dishonest about. You're going to see the numbers there.

Today, we heard audio obtained by the "New York Times" of the conference call this week in which the Vice President told state governors to spin the figures.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I would just encourage you all, as we talk about these things, make sure to continue to explain to your citizens the magnitude of increase in testing. In most of the cases where we are seeing some marginal rising number, that's more a result of the extraordinary work you're doing, expanding testing.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

COOPER: Now keeping them honest, in suggesting that testing is the main reason that case numbers are growing, the Vice President is simply not telling the truth. A senior U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention official telling CNN that the Vice President is selectively choosing data to make his point, cherry-picking it, being less than truthful.

Put more bluntly with his square jaw and that little quaver in his voice that supposed to kind of say mom and apple pie, he is lying, and telling other authority figures to lie too about something and get people killed. And again, the virus will let us all know it in due time.

But there's no need for to come to that because the truth is already there. Reading now from the Oklahoma State Health Department's latest report, which predicts and I, quote, "An increase in the number of cases and hospitalizations due to COVID-19". In other words, it is not just more testing as the Vice President suggested that governor say, if it was just, you know, more people are being tested, then hospitalizations wouldn't rise, would they? But they are.

And that's somebody's dad, it's a close friend from work, the lady next door, more people going to the hospital. And that report which covers June 5th through the 11th goes on to say that the, quote, threat of COVID still exists and we anticipate it to grow and it has. The numbers have continued rising even as testing has actually gone down.

Saturday saw the largest number of new cases in a single day with Tulsa's top public health official telling the local paper that when it comes to the President's rally, quote, I wish we could postpone this to a time when the virus isn't as large a concern as it is today.

But let's get real here, just watching the President, literally listening to him and you can tell to, damn, the virus simply isn't a big concern at all. The concern is people taking the virus seriously and that is scary.

[20:35:10]

No mask, again, at his White House event today. Masks still have the same value of protecting people but for this President, they don't have the same value protecting his reelection chances. He wants the economic numbers to grow. And if the cases of COVID also grow, well, he just claims they aren't growing. They're just doing so much darn testing, because America's number one in testing, says the President, just seems like it's growing. But that's not the truth.

The Vice President knowing not to contradict the President, of course, he never does that. Showed up today at a crowded diner in Iowa. There he is. Remember, he's heading up the President's Coronavirus Task Force which recommends wearing a mask in public. But of course he wasn't. Coronavirus Task Force hasn't held a White House press conference since the 27th of April.

Dr. Anthony Fauci arguably the leading authority on infectious disease in the face of public health in this country since the 1980s. He tells National Public Radio he hasn't spoken with the President in two weeks, two weeks. Just in case you think today's event in Iowa was a one off or taskforce leader and role model, Mike Pence.

Take a look at all the recent appearances he made. Up close, personal with the one item that not only can keep people a lot safer from a deadly illness he's supposed to be in charge of eradicating. It's also just a sign of respect and decency and looking out for your neighbor. And maybe spreading the message to Americans all over the country, people all over the world, that there is something you can do to protect yourself and to protect your loved ones, and that's wear a mask.

You know, that's the kind of virtues the Vice President likes to -- people to believe that he embodies, even as he rubs -- almost literally rubs his contempt for those virtues in their faces, and tells their elected officials to lie. Well today, he also wrote an op- ed in the Wall Street Journal denying that the second wave of the virus coming, praising the President for his leadership, which immediately came into question.

There is, however, one glimmer of truth in all of this. It's in the disclaimer that people attending the Trump rally are required to sign. Waiving their right to sue if they catch the virus at the Trump rally. So for all, the administration's happy talk and lying. When it gets down to being responsible, they won't take responsibility. And they make you sign a legal document that protects them. It sure doesn't protect you. And that speaks the truth about how the President and his people actually see it.

Joining us now is Dr. Chris Murray, director of the University of Washington Institute of Health Metrics and Evaluation, also CNN Chief Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Dr. Murray, when we last spoke, your model is predicting nearly 170,000 deaths by October 1st. That projection has now grown to more than 200,000 deaths.

A rally, you know, and it's not just a Trump rally, I mean, any large gathering of people, demonstrations out in the street. How dangerous is that in terms of raising the numbers? I mean, I know some, you know, protesters will say look, the issues are so important. They're willing to take the risk. Protests are largely outdoors. But the rally is inside and we're talking about upwards of, you know, I think 60,000 people.

DR. CHRISTOPHER MURRAY, DIRECTOR, INSTITUTE FOR HEALTH, METRICS AND EVALUATION: You know, I think Anderson, the things that we've learned over the course of the pandemic so far is you mentioned it before wearing a mask. It's effective. It's a way to protect you and your family, avoiding large group gatherings.

We know now the role of super spreaders, you know, the choir outbreaks, the wedding outbreaks, where hundreds of people can get infected in a single event. And I think that's sort of one of the core things we need to avoid is large gatherings because they create the opportunity for large transmission.

COOPER: And, Doctor, when the President -- when the Vice President writes this op-ed saying that fear of a second wave is overblown, that is essentially the media just, you know, stirring up fear. Is it overblown?

MURRAY: You know --

COOPER: What is the data saying.

MURRAY: -- argue is -- well, that -- here's the thing is that if we look at transmission in the last three months, you know, as the epidemics unfolded, and then try to look at things that predict transmission by state, the most powerful predictor that's coming through is this variable about seasonality.

And it's basically says that pneumonia, which is, you know, COVID is the main mechanism it kills people is through pneumonia is very seasonal. And all the statistical data says that COVID is like pneumonia, very seasonal and that makes us pretty sure there's going to be a second wave.

It'll start at the end of August and intensify through the fall. And unless we are effective at other things, like wearing a mask, avoiding contact, it's going to pretty inexorably lead to the second wave.

[20:40:06]

COOPER: Sanjay, I mean, you know, not many mask the Rose Garden event today nor the Vice President stop at a diner in Iowa and not much social distancing, is there any possible justification on a sound public health basis for that behavior?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: No. I mean, there's just not. I mean, we don't have, you know, a magic therapeutic or a vaccine obviously at this point. We do have increasing evidence that that masks can help. I mean, you know, I say this, you know, often but I think it's important to point out that there are countries around the world that measure their death counts in the hundreds, not the thousands or the hundreds of thousands. And, you know, I think the question often comes up. Look, if I have the coronavirus, and you're within six feet of me, how likely am I to spread this to you just generally speaking. We can show, you know, this was a study that came out of "The Lancet" about 17.4 percent. I mean, this was the data that they collected. There's going to be all sorts of stories on this.

But if you actually wear a mask, then what is the likelihood of transmission? 3.1 percent, so about a six fold decrease in the likelihood of transmission. It's not perfect, but why wouldn't you do that, given how much the infection rates have grown.

COOPER: And, Sanjay, I mean Arizona, Florida, Texas, they've all marked the largest one-day increase in daily new infections, more than 2,000 people in each state. These are all states that started reopening earlier than others. Do you think that's why they're seeing spikes now or is there some other reason unrelated?

GUPTA: Yes, no, I think this was very predictable. I mean, I think we've known all along that as soon as you started to open things up, there were going to be more people who became infected, and it's a contagious virus. More people out there, more people are going to become infected.

I think there's two questions. One is, how much of an increase would there be, and we are seeing some significant increases for sure. Also, what are you willing to tolerate? I mean, is there a point at which you say, hey, look, that's too much. We're worried that we're going into exponential growth here. We're worried that we're starting to see a curve that's really spiking upward.

What are you going to do at that point? I don't know that people really have well thought out plans. And I should point out because, Anderson, people say, well, we're testing more. That's how you, you know, talked about the program, started the program today.

Yes, testing more is going to find more cases. But if test -- if you're testing enough, it should actually lead to a decrease, not an increase. Because you find the people, you isolate them, you prevent further spread. In Oklahoma, they're testing less and the cases are still going up. Case in point.

COOPER: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, Dr. Chris Murray, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Up next, the protests in Seattle that have carved out a small area where police are not welcome. We'll take you to the place that has become a talking point for President Trump, when we return.

[20:45:38]

COOPER: During his remarks today on police reform, President Trump promised swift action against the protesters who formed a police free zone in Seattle. President claimed looting and arson were occurring, the violence would not be tolerated. Monday he used starker language.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Now if they don't do the job, I'll do the job. And I've already spoken to the attorney general about it. But if they don't do the job, we will do the job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: We should point out it's likely unconstitutional for President to send troops without consent of the governor. There's also the discrepancy of how the President's described the protesters. He's called them, quote, domestic terrorists.

Our Elle Reeve spent a day and night in what protesters called the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone for an up close view on what's going on there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Beat his (INAUDIBLE). Time to get right with God.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has a right to speak and say what he wants.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our goal (ph) is to deescalate and share the space.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) secure your sake (ph).

HOST (on-camera): So the idea is this is what society could be without police?

MARSHALL, CHAZ ORGANIZER AND LOCAL MUSICIAN: Well, I mean, to be honest, the first three days deep, so forgive us if it's not as organized as we hope it to be. What we want to do is show that people can police themselves, people can take care of themselves.

ELLE REEVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone, also known as the CHOP or the CHAZ. It's a six block area being controlled by protesters after Seattle police abandoned their East Precinct. Now police don't dare enter and are under orders not to answer any calls in that zone unless there's a mass casualty event.

MARSHALL: Once they left, it just kind of took in the mind of its own, like, wow, we're finally safe. We finally don't have to worry about police brutality.

REEVE (voice-over): But it wasn't always like this. The CHAZ was born after violent clashes with police.

AUBREANNA INDA, PROTESTER HIT WITH FLASHBANG: The medics gave me this because I got shot in the chest with it.

REEVE (on-camera): Can you tell me what happened that night?

INDA: I was about to get on my knees. We all had our hands up and then they shot me and the medics like couldn't get a pulse four times and we are unarmed. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

INDA: We're unarmed. Why do they feel so threatened against us?

REEVE (voice-over): The SPD says this incident is under investigation. And if policy or law violations have occurred, they will take proper steps to address it.

INDA: All the people are here for each other. Like --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.

INDA: -- we don't want any violence at all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anybody up here, anybody is peaceful, man.

REEVE (on-camera): How do you create the rules for the CHAZ?

MARSHALL: There is leadership out here. We communicate the best we possibly can, right? And, you know, it's just human decency. How are you doing? What's up, family? Put your joint out and handed to somebody, come here and talk to me real quick.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

MARSHALL: Yes, try not to curse either. Is it going to always work absolutely? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I think, statistically, if you look at the amount of people that are here, and the amount of violence that is occurring, it's so minimal that it reflects very positively on this experiment.

MIKE SOLAN, PRESIDENT, SEATTLE POLICE OFFICERS GUILD: The CHAZ is a poor reflection on Seattle. This is a result of elected officials that are failing to enforce the rule of law. But if I were to go 50 yards to my west, I wouldn't be allowed in there. In fact, I wouldn't be concerned about my safety.

REEVE (on-camera): They say it's quite peaceful. It's kind of like a party in there.

SOLAN: OK, with the reports that we have is that there aren't people inside. But I would love for you to stick around until 2:00 or 3:00 a.m., I'd love to see all your footage, and maybe you can document the unreasonable activism that's going on in here.

REEVE (on-camera): OK. It's 2:30, what's the scene?

ARC REX, CHAZ SECURITY AND PROTESTER: For the most part, people are picking where they're going to camp out for the night and people are winding down. They're just be peaceful and call it a day.

REEVE (voice-over): There's still a few bursts of confusion and anger when a suspicious person comes through. They're still figuring out how to make their own law and order in a cop-free world.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Flow, flow. REX: The long-term strategy is to stay here and protest and be a demonstration. If the P.D. want their precinct back, if they're keen to return, and not suppress our right to protest, and not engaging war tactics to do it, we're more than happy to have them back here.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[20:50:16]

COOPER: And Elle Reeve joins us now from Seattle. So, who -- I mean, it's -- obviously there's a lot of different people and obviously during the day, it's more people than our night. Who are the people that you've been seeing in this zone because again, the President is, you know, saying domestic terrorists?

REEVE: It's a really interesting mix. There's a lot of local people, some activists and people who are new to activism. It's a mix of brown people, people of color, white people, there are volunteer medics, volunteer mental health workers. And then there's a very small number of anti-fascist groups like the John Brown Gun Club, who are doing security, and they're tracking far right groups to make sure they don't come in and hurt these people.

COOPER: And has there been violence there? I mean, beyond just in the forming of it in the subsequent days.

REEVE: No, it's largely peaceful. Occasionally, some proud boys have come in and there have been fights outside of the zone. But other than that, it's very chillier.

COOPER: Elle Reeve, appreciate you being there. Thank you very much.

Still ahead, why the Trump administration has gone to court to try to stop former National Security Advisor John Bolton from selling his White House memoir.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: There's lot more ahead. Let's check in with Chris quickly and see what he's working on. Chris?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: How are you doing, Coop (ph)?

COOPER: Good. How are you?

CUOMO: Good. I was going to take silence as acceptance there by the way. I was like, oh, nothing. Here's what we're going to do tonight. We're going to take a look at what the President said today through the lens of addressing a problem that he won't even say and what that means and how it reverberates.

[20:55:01]

We also have an expert in policing, taking a look at the Rayshard Brooks case. And what will be the justification under Georgia law offered up by any officer charged. That will be difficult for people to deal with. But it's important to get an expectation of what's coming.

And then we have Sanjay coming on as you did, but a little different angle to look at what the reality is everywhere that the Vice President was talking about. We know what he said in the op-ed. Let's set it up against the facts. And we're going to take a look at this new steroid and see if there's really hope of helping any of the cases in COVID.

COOPER: Yes, yes. Let's -- we'll see you just a couple minutes from now. More breaking news on this program, why the Trump administration is suing former National Security Adviser John Bolton over his memoir, expected to be released next week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: We have more breaking news, Trump administration has sued former National Security Advisor John Bolton seeking to stop the release of his highly anticipated memoir, claiming it has classified information. The nearly 600 page book in the room where it happened, a White House memoir scheduled for release next week. Bolton was fired by the President last September after serving in the White House for 17 months.

Just yesterday, President Trump said that Bolton would have criminal problems if the book is published as is. According to the publisher, the book will detail a president who sees getting reelected as the only thing that matters even if that means endangering or weakening the nation. A source close to Bolton says he's still planning on publishing as scheduled next Tuesday. That means he'll deal with any ramifications after the fact.

News continues, I'll turn over to Chris for "CUOMO PRIME TIME".

Chris?