Return to Transcripts main page
CUOMO PRIME TIME
13 Charged In Alleged Plot To Kidnap Michigan Governor Before Election; Governor Whitmer On Alleged Domestic Terror Plot To Kidnap Her: "This Was A Very Serious Moment, And Very Scary"; Pelosi & Raskin Push Bill To Create Panel That Could Rule On President's Fitness For Office. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 8, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
TOM SATER, AMS CNN METEOROLOGIST: And we have 7.5 more weeks to go.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Wow! Tom Sater, appreciate it. Thank you. We'll be tracking it.
The news continues. Let's hand it over to Chris for "CUOMO PRIME TIME." Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: All right, thank you, Anderson.
I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.
So, tell me, can any of you still be OK with what's going on? The FBI told us today, a bunch of terrorists were plotting to kill the Democratic Governor of Michigan. 13 guys so far, and they say - they say there may be more still out there.
Governor Whitmer is with us tonight. And the scariest part of her story may be the reaction to her calls for help from the President and the White House.
These are homegrown terrorists, according to the FBI, angry White guys, spun up to action in Michigan. And we know why. And it isn't because they couldn't go to the gym.
Here is the question. Is this President really trying to spread not one but two viruses, COVID and this cancer of hate? His virulent voice, the violence that too many of you dismiss as Twitter talk. It isn't. You're living it now in a federal indictment.
He has targeted Whitmer over and over again, for trying to keep her State safe during a pandemic. That is Governor Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: You'd be doing even better if you had a governor that knew what the hell she was doing. Open up your state, Madam Governor. Open up your State.
(CROWD CHEERS)
TRUMP: Just like crazy Nancy Pelosi, your Governor is a liberal hypocrite who lives by a different set of rules.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: It's not just talk. Do you remember this? "Liberate the states." Remember when we said "Who says that?" What President calls for rebellion against one of the United States of America? "Liberate Michigan, Virginia, Minnesota," anyone with a governor who opposes him.
Remember that insurrection rallying cry when he told Whitmer, the White guys with the guns who just don't like masks, they're good people. Loves that phrase for bad people, "Good people." His followers were listening closely.
Protesters stormed Michigan's Capitol in April over Whitmer's stay- home order. Many of them armed. Look familiar? Look like the guys in the indictment?
"Islam hates us." Not as much as these guys when you judge the domestic terror threat, what we face here, according to his national security experts.
On May 1st, Trump praised them as good people, and called on Whitmer to give in to them a little. "Give them a little," he said, the demonstrators with assault rifles. Yes, Michigan has the law, you can open carry there. I'm sure this is the way they intended it.
The FBI, run by Trump's guy, says it also foiled plans by two vigilante groups to violently overthrow Michigan and other state governments. How is this OK?
You got six suspects in a federal indictment. There are seven other charged by the State of Michigan, plotting to target law enforcement, cops, attack the Capitol. These people are anti-police, anti-law and order.
Kidnapping cops? It's not nice when Blacks or Whites try to do something like that. But where is the outrage? How is this OK? How is it OK to you that Trump has said nothing when a Governor of a State is a product of a federal investigation by terrorists?
Mr. Law and Order? What he ignores, he empowers on purpose. And what he said to and about them empowers hate. It's not just ugly talk on Twitter to people like me. They wanted to hurt her and her family. Murderous, terroristic hate!
"Oh, you can't blame Trump." Why the hell not? You wouldn't blame me if I was telling people to do something like that, and then somebody did it, who actually was at the place that I was talking to that day? They met at that group, at that demonstration. If I did that, you'd be like, "Well, coincidence!"
The only prosecution he called for today had nothing to do with domestic terrorism. He said you need to prosecute Obama and Biden. How are you OK with it?
[21:05:00]
If this were a Republican Governor, and 13 Black guys arrested, you think he'd be silent? Captain COVID?
He'd be on State TV right now. In fact, he is on State TV right now. He'd be saying "It's a coup! It's a coup!" Hannity would be nodding so fast, his head would pop off. But silence! Do you really want this sickness, this virus of hate he is fomenting?
This isn't Twitter, man. It's not a stupid YouTube video. They were planning for a long time to get her. They were going to meet and train. They were trying to coordinate with other groups.
Not all Trump supporters are hateful people. But why does it seem that all the hateful people are Trump supporters? Is tonight the night you say "Enough?"
He is contagious two times over. This hate he ignores and empowers, just like he is apparently ignoring and now empowering COVID. Cleared by his doctor? The fastest case in history? Great. Where is the proof? Show me a negative test.
Just Monday, his doctor was sweating the situation. Now he's good to go? Where's the test showing he doesn't have it? They won't even tell you his temperature. Come on! You know it's BS. "Medical privacy," they say. You lost that privilege when you talked about his positive test.
And they're going to give him clearance for what? To hold more rallies, where people don't have to wear masks, and are so close together. Why? "Well, we trust them to make the right" - what's that? That's what Pence was saying.
Well, then why wear seat belts? Why have a rule? Why have a speed limit? Why not give everybody 10 shots and put them in their cars? "Trust them. Play a little Russian roulette. Trust them. They'll do the right thing." When you're encouraging them to do the wrong thing?
Leaders don't intentionally create risks. They keep people safe. That's their intention.
So now, he should have the rallies, right, so more people can get sick, just like all those people in the Rose Garden.
This President keeps knocking bricks out of the foundation of our democracy for his own advantage. The only justice is justice that he likes. The only good trust is trust of him, not even the people who work for him. That comes and goes.
Elections are rigged if he doesn't win. The only transfer of power that can come is if he likes the outcome. Violence is to be feared, unless it's against his opponents. Our democracy should not be treated like a Jenga puzzle, unless the goal is to see what it takes to make it all fall.
If you think this sounds dramatic, tell that to the Governor of Michigan, her husband, her kids. Domestic terrorists that were given comfort by Trump, that were told to "Liberate the State" by Trump, plotting to take her out.
Remember, they were at the damn rally where he said they're good people. That rally. "Good people. Good people." Bad people, on the heels of the President telling them to liberate the state, how much more damning can a situation get, and yet, he is silent.
You tell me a good reason for him not to come out and say "These people disgust me. I want nothing to do with anybody like them. And anyone who is like them will never be a supporter of mine. I will never accept their support."
"Damned if he does. Damned if he doesn't." Please!
Listen to Governor Whitmer. What a long and hard day she has had.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CUOMO: Governor, thank you for joining us tonight.
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D-MI): Thank you.
CUOMO: I have to say, I've never been at once happier to see you well, and sadder about the circumstances under which I find you. I almost feel like apologizing to you for the state of what it means to be in public service these days.
How are you doing? How's your husband? How's your family?
WHITMER: We're doing fine, Chris. I mean, certainly this was a very serious moment, and very scary. And the incredible men and women of the FBI, and the Michigan State Police, who put themselves in danger, to protect me and my family, I'm so grateful for.
[21:10:00]
We're working through it. Our burden is lighter than that which so many people are carrying right now. And so, that keeps us grounded and focused.
CUOMO: Gov, I respect the chin up on it. But let's take one more step down this road. These are scary allegations. This isn't the President tweeting at you.
This is 13 people, the law enforcement says could be more, the rantings of real terroristic notions about how to get after power, you being that power. What does this do to your head and your heart?
WHITMER: Well, I got into public service because I love people. I love this State. I want to make sure that every action I'm doing is a way to improve the quality of people's lives. And right now, in this environment, there's just so much incendiary language and actions that are being taken.
This isn't - we know public service is tough. And we know, when you take on a position like this, there are going to be hard days. But I think that the added stress about violence being perpetrated against your family is something that shouldn't be a part of the bargain.
And everyone with a platform should call it out. Everyone with a platform should call it what it is, which is domestic terrorism. And everyone with a platform should do what they can to bring the heat down.
And that's what I've been asking from the Trump Administration for months. And we see that that's not only not happened, but it's gotten hotter and it's gotten more dangerous.
CUOMO: I just want to be clear about this. Timing is relevant in terms of investigations, so not to play too much with the timeline.
But just to be clear about what you just said, Governor, you knew or had reason to know bad things were happening that exceeded the ability of the State to handle them, and you reached out to the White House for help on the federal level, and nothing happened?
WHITMER: Well, in the early days, when the President was so furious that I said we need a national strategy, and that's when he started identifying me and leveling attacks and criticism my way, we saw the language online go very - in a very concerning direction, dangerous, violent. The rhetoric just got incredibly ugly.
And on a number of calls with the Vice President, I asked that the White House get the heat out of the conversation, take the heat down. And each time, they recognized that I had made the request, and nothing was ever done about it.
And we see now that after months of continuing to throw more heat into the situation, it's culminated into a place where they will not disavow White supremacists, even in the middle of a Presidential debate, and you see that people listen and they take this as encouragement, that anyone who fraternizes or encourages domestic terrorism is complicit in it.
CUOMO: I've got to tell you, the record doesn't make it easy to defend that proposition. I don't really have a great counter here because we all saw what happened when the angry White guys with the guns came there, not liking the masks, not like what's happening.
We know what the President said at that time, which was they're good people, and that you should talk to them, and give them a chance. He then put out a tweet talking about how people should liberate their State from people like you.
Is it clear, in your mind, that this President's messaging is motivating hateful people like these domestic terrorists, as accused? WHITMER: Well, I think there's absolutely a connection. And I'd love for someone to try to prove me wrong on that. The fact of the matter is--
CUOMO: Well, they did it today. They said it's on you, you know? That - I mean, it continued today. "Whitmer is the problem. Whitmer is doing things"--
WHITMER: Yes.
CUOMO: --"that make people angry. Whitmer is locking down the State and crushing people and their livelihoods." So it's on you, not him. Your counter?
WHITMER: I think that tells you everything you need to know about this Administration that their reaction to a plot to kidnap and kill a governor is to attack that governor, not to attack the domestic terrorists that were plotting that, not to even criticize them.
And I think that's the difference, that we have a choice in the next few weeks here.
Are we going to go with this Administration that takes these tactics, or a deeply decent person who can bring us together and restore integrity like Joe Biden? He called me today. That's what a decent person does.
[21:15:00]
And there are Republicans who do that. Now, Charlie Baker, the Governor of Massachusetts, called today. He's a Republican. He didn't have to pick up the phone. We don't know each other that well. But he was concerned about the rhetoric and concerned about my safety and my family.
That's what good American leaders do. They don't sow division. They try to unify us. And that's what we need now more than ever.
CUOMO: No word from the President to you personally, I'm assuming, and we have not heard anything publicly about him condemning the actions of these accused domestic terrorists. What does that mean to you?
WHITMER: No, I mean the only word out of the White House is the spokesperson trying to gaslight me on this. And I think the majority of people aren't buying it.
We know that a decent person would pick up the phone, and say, "Are you OK?" and condemn terror organizations that are threatening and intimidating and plotting against fellow Americans.
CUOMO: How worried does this make you about what might happen around the election in your State?
WHITMER: Well, I've always been concerned about it. We know that this is an Administration that probably doesn't have a lot of confidence in their prospects come November 3rd, and so undermining the U.S. Postal Service, undermining mail-in balloting.
"The Atlantic" article that really went into a lot of specificity about how they want to come into states like Michigan and wreak havoc, we take it very seriously. And we are preparing to make sure that people are safe when they go to the polls and that people vote early because Michiganders can vote right now, and we're encouraging people to vote early as well.
CUOMO: And the idea that they wanted to do something before Election Day, are you still worried about your safety?
WHITMER: I have the State Police as my detail, and they are phenomenal. They are - I've never for a minute worried about my safety, knowing that they've had my back.
And it's because the men and women of the State Police and the FBI who did this unprecedented collaboration to bring these people in gives me great confidence in our law enforcement. I'm grateful for them.
CUOMO: What do you make of the notion of President's defenders who say "Look, they let the FBI help her out. There you go. That's him supporting her."
WHITMER: Fortunately, the FBI is made up of individuals who take an oath and take that oath seriously. No one should tolerate violence against our fellow Americans. And that's why, in my speech today, I quoted Ronald Reagan.
Because I recognize that there are - having - being patriotic, defending our fellow Americans is not squarely in one Party or another. It's what great American leaders do, Republican and Democratic alike. And I wanted people to know those people exist.
CUOMO: You are a cool customer, Governor. I mean, you are - you seem really unflappable in a lot of different circumstances. When you understood the allegations, as detailed in the affidavit today, that the rest of us got to see, how does that not shake you up?
Because it's not just "I hate Whitmer. I'd love to vote her out," or "I'd like to go get my hands on her. Everything she says makes me sick, I hate," that kind of talk. This was planning, time, trying to find cooperation, train. How do you get your head around that?
WHITMER: Well, Chris, I think that it's important to have a real understanding about what the threats are, but also to be able to rely on the team of security around me. And I do.
This is not easy. This should not be a part of the bargain for someone who enters into public service. And yet, that's the environment that we are in right now. And that's why we got to fix this environment.
And we fix it by electing a good, decent person, who can unify this country, and bring us back together, and bring us back to the center of what we all want, which is what Ronald Reagan talked about, the American Dream, in that speech at the NAACP that I quoted from earlier. We all have a huge stake in this election. And I'm not going to let anyone scare me from doing my job. I will not be bullied. No one's going to mess with me and take me off of the job at hand and that is to work every single day on behalf of the people of this State. Whether they agree with me or not, I am their Governor, and I am going to do my best to serve them.
CUOMO: I got to tell you, it surprises me but you do seem exactly the same. Governor Gretchen Whitmer, I truly wish you and your family safety. And I'm sorry that we're having this conversation at all.
[21:20:00]
But I am happy to - not happy. I am doing my job by making sure everybody understands how real this was. This was not some fat guy on a couch on the internet. This was a really organized effort that is scary by any definition.
So Governor, God bless and be well, you and your family.
WHITMER: Thank you, Chris. Take care.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CUOMO: My eyes keep going down in that interview because I wanted to see the Governor. I can't believe that kind of composure.
This is a no BS situation. That's a federal affidavit of proof of indictment. This is heavy stuff! And I'm not angry at you. I'm angry for you. We do this job for you, for you to understand what's happening, and then you make your own actions.
I love you. That's what the job's about. It's about loving each other. And this risk is real. Thankfully, the FBI caught it when they did, despite the President playing down domestic terror.
"It's only Islam that hates you," what about these cats? There are more of them, and they are scarier, and trying to hurt us, more than anybody else. And everybody's been saying that. And the President keeps trying to resist it. Why?
We're going to talk to people who are experts in this area. They will tell you what this kind of threat means, what the messaging does, or does not matter in a situation like this. The reality, from a former Acting FBI Director, and a former top Trump Homeland Security official, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: For those of you out there who are saying, "Whoa, why aren't they giving more credit to Trump for the FBI helping Governor Whitmer?" Hey, listen, we're not the ones who say the people who are working in there are the "Deep State." The President is, OK?
And yes, the FBI uncovered this with Michigan law enforcement, but no thanks to the Attorney General. You want proof of that? He is damned by his own words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): Are you aware that these protesters called for the Governor to be lynched, shot and beheaded?
BILL BARR, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: No.
JAYAPAL: You're not aware of that?
BARR: I was not aware of that.
JAYAPAL: Major protests in Michigan. You're the Attorney General. And you didn't know that the protesters called for the Governor to be lynched, shot and beheaded?
BARR: Yes (ph).
JAYAPAL: So obviously you couldn't be concerned about that. You - you didn't--
BARR: Well, there are a lot of protests around the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: His people were investigating it at the same time. A sitting Governor, over a dozen bad guys, months of planning, murderous intent, derivative of the main domestic terror threat we face, and he's clueless? How? How is that OK?
Elizabeth Neumann was Assistant Secretary of Counterterrorism at Trump's Department of Homeland Security. Andrew McCabe was Deputy Director of the FBI.
Good to see you both, and thank you.
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR, FBI: Thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: Andy, how does he not know an investigation is going on like that where the target is a Governor of a State? MCCABE: Well, Chris, it's absolutely inconceivable to me that the Attorney General was not aware of the expanse and the details and the seriousness of this investigation.
I can't say whether he exactly knew what the reporter quoted to him at that time. But it is absolutely inconceivable that he wasn't being briefed on this case on a very, very regular basis.
This is some of the most sensitive and dangerous work that we do, and it is never done without the visibility and the approval of the Attorney General.
CUOMO: Elizabeth, the pushback notion is "Listen, don't put this on the President. These guys have their own plans and their own agenda. They hate all government. They're not motivated by him."
What do you know from your understanding of the threat and what messaging from our leaders can do?
ELIZABETH NEUMANN, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Look, during my tenure, we saw the rise of White Supremacism. There were multiple attempts to educate the White House and to get them to take domestic terrorism seriously.
We made some progress, at a practitioner level, working with partners at the FBI, the National Counterterrorism Center. But sadly, the White House did not take this seriously. They did not address some of the policy and programmatic things we asked them to take on.
And the sense that we received from senior White House officials was that they weren't allowed to talk about domestic terrorism. They weren't allowed to bring up White supremacy or anti-government extremism to the President.
And for a bit of time, you kind of give them the benefit of the doubt, that maybe they're focused on other things.
But it's become extremely clear that this is more about the President not wanting to offend those, who like him, to offend those, who are his political base. And so they've pivoted, right? They distract and they talk about things like Antifa.
But very consistently, you have the FBI, you have the DHS, you have many practitioners that have pointed out that the most significant lethal threat that we face in our homeland today is from White supremacists and anti-government extremists on the Right, not the Left.
CUOMO: Andy, let's flesh that out a little bit. What do you see in what is articulated in the affidavit as it is a shadow of the greatest threat in the country?
MCCABE: Well, Chris, it's a remarkably detailed picture of a very, very serious plot.
I can tell you, from my own experience in the FBI, having worked dozens and dozens of these attempted terrorist attacks, this one has all the hallmarks of a well-organized and pretty elaborately executed plot.
It's clear that the government had several undercover agents and cooperating witnesses in the group, and they were able to make surreptitious recordings of statements by group members and by co- conspirators. And the statements are incredibly damning.
[21:30:00]
They talk about, of course, kidnapping the Governor. They talk about showing up at her house, ringing the doorbell, and just shooting her if she answers the door. They talk about blowing up a bridge to obstruct the police response to her home.
They talk about planning, spending $4,000 on night-vision goggles and helmets. They talk about acquiring bomb-making materials, actually building bombs, which the undercovers, and the cooperating witnesses, saw, test-firing those things at training camps.
It's really remarkable. This was an incredibly serious plot, very dangerous situation, and outstanding work by our folks in the FBI and the JTTF.
CUOMO: Elizabeth, to your earlier point, "Yes, they're bad, just like the BLM guys and the Antifa guys, same thing, the people rioting, same thing as these guys." How does that match up in terms of threat profile and analysis?
NEUMANN: It doesn't, right?
Like the - as former Director McCabe just kind of shared with us, the descriptions of the organization, and the lethality of what they were trying to do, the time period that this was a multiple-month effort, multiple training runs, and sophisticated plans, that's not what we see from the Left-wing protesters from Antifa.
In fact, if you look at the root cause or what is the motivation of Antifa, it's really just to counter what they perceive to be fascism, whereas a White supremacist or anti-government agenda has, as its core, the goal to overthrow the government. It is - it is, at its very core, treasonous by nature.
CUOMO: And I'll tell you what. Messaging matters, especially right before an election, when it seems the bad guys, Andy, want something to happen around the election.
MCCABE: Well Chris, we spent a lot of time, in the FBI, watching the extremists that we are investigating, whether they are DT or international terrorism, whatever they might be, because those folks look for clues, and they look for signs to inspire them, and to give them that trigger to be activated to move.
So anytime a terrorist would be killed overseas, we'd watch how they would react to those things. So imagine now, you are a White Supremacist--
CUOMO: Hold on, Andy.
MCCABE: --you're - yes?
CUOMO: Andy, let me get a real-time take from both of you, all right?
MCCABE: Yes.
CUOMO: The President's tweeting.
"Governor Whitmer of Michigan has done a terrible job. She locked down her state for everyone, except her husband's boating activities. The Federal Government provided tremendous help to get the Great People of Michigan. My Justice Department," he says that "My Justice Department and Federal Law Enforcement announced today that they foiled a dangerous plot against the Governor of Michigan.
Rather than say thank you, she calls me a White Supremacist, while Biden and Democrats refuse to condemn Antifa, Anarchists, Looters and Mobs that burn down Democrat run cities.
I don't tolerate ANY extreme violence. Defending ALL Americans, even those who oppose and attack me, is what I will always do as your President! Governor Whitmer, open up your state, open up your schools."
Now, objectively, you thought I was being hypothetical with what I was saying to you about what the pushback is. He just said the exact damn thing that I was telling you that they're saying.
There's an echo effect around this guy. His people say what he wants them to say. How is that helpful to the cause of suppressing, Andy, these guys from thinking they should act on animus?
MCCABE: It's not only, not helpful to the cause of suppressing them. It's actually aggravating the danger that we face as a result of these groups.
These guys are listening. And when they hear language like that, coming from the President, they take that as a sign, a sign of approval from on high that they've been authorized in a way to move forward and to undertake the destruction that they yearn for.
It's absolutely outrageous that the President would say these things. And I must say the Department of Justice and the FBI is not the province and the property of the President, any president. It is the providence of the people of this country. That's who they are there to defend. And that's what they did today.
CUOMO: Elizabeth, he doesn't even call out the threat, by the way. He only names Left-wing organizations. They're not at the top of your terror profile for who's attacking us. He doesn't even name the main threat. He's just insulted that he gets lumped in with White supremacists. NEUMANN: Yes. It's really, really aggravating because I feel as if the Conservatives and Republicans are trying to wage a political argument here.
And I think what you hopefully hear from me and from Director McCabe is that we're trying to wage a counterterrorism battle here. What matters is not--
MCCABE: That's right.
NEUMANN: --is not how a political person interprets the President's speech. What matters is how the threat actor interprets his speech.
[21:35:00]
So, if the threat actor sees a sandwich of "Criticize the Governor," you know, "Good thing that they thwarted, I condemn violence," but criticize the Governor again, their takeaway is "He's still on our side."
This is a tacit approval because, they have - they have a conspiracy theory that the government is controlled by elites, and that Trump has to go along with it to a certain extent. But they - for the most part, they, kind of, like Trump because many of his policies are supportive of their ideologies.
So, they view him as an ally, even though he is part of the government because he's against the Deep State. He's really on their side. But he has to be careful what he says and play along a little bit.
So, they view those sandwiched comments that "Sure, he condemns it but" as tacit approval for what they're doing.
CUOMO: Well, he says "Any." He doesn't even call them out by name, when they were just indicted, and they represent the number one domestic terror threat that we face. I mean he knows what he's saying, and what he's not saying, and it is just so damn scary.
Elizabeth Neumann, thank you very much. Andrew McCabe, I appreciate it.
MCCABE: Thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: Listen, this is the President. He just tweeted. Listen, this is why people are questioning if you're in your right mind.
I can't believe that you grew up where you grew up, and you can say this kind of stuff, and shelter these crazed angry White people. Just why? Your followers are not all bigots. It's just that all bigots want to follow you for some reason. You're President of everybody.
We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME. (END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: In the week since we were told the President tested positive for COVID-19, at least 19 others in his orbit have been infected. And those are just the ones we know about.
I want to bring in Michael Shear, White House Reporter for "The New York Times." He tested positive while covering the President. So did his wife, by the way, and we'll talk about that.
Olivia Troye, a former Senior Adviser to the White House's COVID Task Force, joins us as well for some perspective on why it seems so common that we don't find things out or they seem to have political overtones.
First, Michael, let's deal with what matters most. How are you doing, brother, and how's your wife?
MICHAEL SHEAR, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT INFECTED WITH COVID-19: Well, thanks, Chris, for having me on.
I mean, look, you know better than anybody this thing really could flatten you. I've been sick for about a week now. And, as you said, my wife tested positive a couple days after I did. We're hanging in there, feels like kind of the flu (OFF-MIKE) thankfully, not in the hospital, but you know (OFF-MIKE).
CUOMO: How's your fever?
SHEAR: Fever comes and goes. And that's probably the hardest - hardest thing for me anyway to get rid of, is it, it spikes pretty high, and you take Tylenol, and it comes back down again. But my doctor's watching it carefully and hopefully we'll turn the corner soon.
CUOMO: Breathing? You sound good.
SHEAR: Breathing seems to be fine. I'm coughing a lot, and I'm taking the blood oxygen levels all the time, which is what everybody recommends.
CUOMO: They good? Up 90s?
SHEAR: And so far, that's been pretty good.
CUOMO: High 90s? SHEAR: High - yes, 95, 96, 97 is where that is.
CUOMO: Good.
SHEAR: So, you know, so far so good. But as you hear about these stories, where people do OK for a while, and then take a sudden turn for the worse. So, we're crossing our fingers that we never get to that point.
CUOMO: God forbid. I wish you and the wife well. You're looking better and sound better than I did at your point. So, take progress where you find it.
SHEAR: Yes.
CUOMO: Now, in terms of where you got it.
SHEAR: Yes.
CUOMO: What's the chance that you didn't get it in any way connected to the White House or this President?
SHEAR: I mean, look, I can't say for 100 percent.
I have not been - I've been working out of my house in Suburban Virginia since early March essentially, have largely been here. I, the last couple of weeks, didn't even go to the grocery.
Every now and then, we'll go out. But we've been - we've been really careful. And the only time that I went to the White House, in the last couple of weeks was that - was that Saturday of the Rose Garden event.
I didn't cover the Rose Garden event. But I went to the White House to get a COVID test because I was on Air Force One that afternoon, that evening, on the trip that the President took to Pennsylvania. So, I - and then I didn't go back to the White House the rest of that week.
So, it's - I mean, it's hard to imagine a coincidence that would suggest that I got it somewhere else even though that was the one moment that I'd been at the White House all week.
CUOMO: Well, look, obviously you're frustrated by the lack of transparency and information also. They didn't call you to contact trace? Did they call you to offer you any help or testing or treatment?
SHEAR: No. I mean, for whatever reason they decided to offer testing to people, who had - who had traveled later in the week, or more recently, so I missed that offer, although I got my own test, which was fine.
CUOMO: Right.
SHEAR: I was really surprised that they didn't do any contact tracing.
CUOMO: Yes. SHEAR: Because you would imagine they would want to know who I might have come in contact with. Now, as it turns out, I didn't go back to the White House that week. So, I haven't been in touch with anybody really over there. But they don't know that. They don't have any idea who I'd been in touch with.
CUOMO: You said you were on--
SHEAR: And you would think that you--
CUOMO: You said you were on Air Force One. Were you anywhere near the President?
SHEAR: I was. He came back - so it's a short flight up to Pennsylvania. The flight up, we didn't see him. We covered the speech, obviously, and then boarded Air Force One to come back.
On the way back, he came back to the press cabin for about 10 minutes, 15 minutes, talked to us off the record without a mask. We were all wearing our masks. But he wasn't. And then, we landed and that was the last I saw him.
[21:45:00]
Hard to know whether he would have been infectious then or whether might have been somebody else that was on the plane. But yes, that was the kind of interaction I had with him.
CUOMO: Olivia, you're not surprised to hear that they weren't calling to contact trace. They have no interest in your experience of doing anything to expose any type of concern about the need for masks or spacing or anything like that.
Help people understand how real that was in terms of the connection and messaging between the prophylaxic message of the pandemic, and wearing masks, and social distancing, and the concerns of politics that would creep into your work on the Task Force.
OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER SENIOR ADVISOR, CORONAVIRUS TASK FORCE, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISER TO VP PENCE: Well, there's no doubt that the political influence overshadowed pretty much everything that we did on the Task Force.
And in terms of contact tracing, I've got to tell you flat out right now, I'm not surprised. They were - and the hiding of it, people who are infected in the White House. I saw that firsthand. And I have heard about this firsthand. So, I can tell you 100 percent that's happening. And they will downplay it.
And in terms of my experience with the Task Force, there were agenda items that I tried to put on repeatedly that really mattered, such as face coverings for transportation workers, or pushing forward like the meatpacking guidances, or other things like that that really needed to be discussed.
And, at times, I would send the agenda forward for review, by my Chief of Staff, for approval. And, at the very last minute, the agenda item would disappear, or we would just skip over it in the Task Force.
CUOMO: They saw wearing masks--
TROYE: Knowing that had consequence--
CUOMO: --as bad politics for this President.
TROYE: I'm sorry, what was that?
CUOMO: They saw wearing masks as bad politics for this President.
TROYE: That's the bottom line. That's how you end up with the scenario at the Mayo Clinic when the Vice President is in the hospital without a mask.
CUOMO: Michael Shear, God bless. Be well. You know I'm a call away if I can help. Olivia Troye, thank you for giving us the insight of the inside, because it's so hard for everybody else to believe.
We thank them both. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: You ever get that feeling like every time you come back from break like a bell should ring, it's like another round? It just keeps coming. The Speaker of the House fired this shot at the President today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): Tomorrow, come here tomorrow. We're going to be talking about the 25th Amendment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: The 25th Amendment. Look, I think this is very unlikely. Not that they won't talk about it, but just read the 25th Amendment.
Even if the president didn't object to being removed from power, it would still take the vice president and a majority of the Executive officers, the cabinet, or the vice president and a body established by Congress, which is bicameral, right, two houses, not just the House, and that body doesn't exist.
But what does this mean? Why is this productive?
Congressman Jamie Raskin, of Maryland, friend of show, wants to create that group, the aforementioned group, from the 25th Amendment, cosponsored with Pelosi.
Congressman, welcome back to the show.
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Chris, thank you very much for having me.
CUOMO: You are a superior mind. But I think you have an inferior case tonight. This 25th Amendment, you can talk about the president's perceived incompetence or incapacity, but where is this going to go in all likelihood?
RASKIN: Well, for one thing, the legislation which I first brought up several years ago is not about one president. It doesn't mention President Trump. It's about having the body in place that's contemplated by the 25th Amendment.
The Authors of the 25th Amendment, Birch Bayh and Robert F. Kennedy felt very strongly that there was real danger in the Nuclear Age if you don't have succession and stability in the presidency. We got 535 Members of Congress. We've got one president.
And so, COVID-19 is also an age of real danger and uncertainty. And so, this is something that we should do for the continuity and stability of office.
You're right that nothing happens without the Senate and nothing happens without the Vice President. But I hope that we take very seriously, our responsibility as Congress, to make sure that we've got stability and continuity in the presidency.
CUOMO: Just as this was first kind of scared into existence by Eisenhower, and how people didn't get real information about him, and they felt it was deceptive, and Congress wanted to act, it look a long time, because partisans get nervous of it looking like a reaction to their own.
Wouldn't that look like this now to the Republicans, that if they were to sign on to this kind of group, it would have Trump's name all over it, even if it's not actually there?
RASKIN: Well I don't think so. The 25th Amendment has four parts to it.
One says that if the presidency is vacant, the vice president becomes president.
The second says if the vice presidency is vacant, the president nominates someone who through concurrent majorities becomes VP.
The third says the president can temporarily transfer powers to the VP, if he's undergoing surgery, for example, a colonoscopy. This has happened multiple times before.
CUOMO: Yes.
RASKIN: It's the responsible thing to do. In fact, I think there were Republicans calling for it.
CUOMO: Right.
RASKIN: When the President first went to the hospital.
CUOMO: But this is about the fourth property, which is?
RASKIN: This is about Section 4, yes. And so, Section 4 says that the vice president and a majority of the cabinet, the principal officers in Executive branch or the vice president and a majority of the body set up by Congress can determine that the president is unable to execute the powers and duties of office.
In other words, instead of the president voluntarily saying, "I'm going to take a breather for a few weeks"--
CUOMO: Right.
RASKIN: --or for several hours or whatever it is, it is said that the president has become incapacitated. And so, you set up a body that's there in the event of an emergency.
CUOMO: I got you.
RASKIN: So, this is all about--
CUOMO: But let me ask you this. This isn't about the law.
RASKIN: Yes.
CUOMO: Do you think the President is incompetent?
[21:55:00]
RASKIN: It is totally not my judgment. That's what the whole legislation is about, is saying we need to have a body there to make these judgments. We don't need politicians running around second- guessing people's doctors and physicians and so on. What we need is a process to do this. And it's called for--
CUOMO: Why now?
RASKIN: --in the Constitution.
Well, because I think it's a haphazard way to go. And everybody thinks it's partisan and so on. We're trying to drain it of the partisanship, and say, "Look, this is a bipartisan, bicameral body set up with medical authorities."
Former - no politicians were in office today, but former Executive branch people, former cabinet officials, surgeons general, vice presidents, presidents, and they'll meet and they'll say "We've got a problem, and we need to transfer the powers to the vice president," because what happens if the president becomes medically incapacitated and that hasn't been done.
CUOMO: Congressman Raskin?
RASKIN: I mean, what happens then?
CUOMO: I appreciate you taking the time. I got to take a break. I appreciate you as always. Thank you for being on the show.
RASKIN: And thanks for having me, Chris.
CUOMO: All right, we'll see what happens with that. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: All right, that's it for us. Time for the best part of the night, "CNN TONIGHT" with its big star, D. Lemon, right now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST, CNN TONIGHT WITH DON LEMON: Best part, show you're right. Show you are right.
Listen, no laughing matter though. I saw you with the Governor. Man! That is some scary, scary, scary stuff. But I don't hear anybody in 1600, I'm sorry.
