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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES

Confusion over New Rules after C.D.C. Says those Fully Vaccinated Do Not Need a Mask in Most Situations; New Video of Rep. Greene's Aggressive Behavior on Capitol Hill; Former Gaetz Associated To Plead Guilty, Cooperate With Fed Probe; Moving Day For Millions Of Ballots Being Conducted; Video Released Of Mentally Ill Black Man Dying In Custody At South Carolina Jail; Gaza Death Toll Climbs To 126; At Least 950 Injured. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired May 14, 2021 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[20:00:00]

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Thanks so much for joining us.

AC 360 starts right now.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: And good evening. The surprise news from the C.D.C. Thursday that masks are no longer necessary in most cases for those fully vaccinated was certainly greeted with great euphoria, today, however, that sense of joy and relief has turned to some confusion, even fear for some.

More than 15 months, America waited for guidance, more than 585,000 Americans have died with physical and psychological scars that may never heal for many, but with cases and fatalities plummeting, this once hope for guidance has bred some concerns of its own now.

Chiefly, that it depends on something that can sometimes seem in short supply, trust. There's no enforcement mechanism. Of course, no proof of vaccination requirement, someone will check, instead, we are a nation of about 330 million people now on the Honor System.

Currently, only about 36 percent of the population are fully vaccinated, meaning most people still need to wear a mask. Nothing has actually changed for them or it shouldn't have. To make matters even more complicated, this is just national guidelines or guidance, I should say. The rules are set by states and localities and those rules differ from state to state even city to city.

Minnesota, for instance has dropped its mask mandate, however, its largest city, Minneapolis is still under one, and then how to balance this new guidance with the fact that most children are unvaccinated, and only those over 12 are eligible for vaccination. Most retailers are still requiring mask, however, others like Trader Joe's and Walmart today said the fully vaccinated don't need them, but that brings us back to the question how do we know who is fully vaccinated and who is to check?

As Dr. Anthony Fauci admitted to CNN yesterday, quote, "I think there's going to be a pushback against questioning somebody when they walk in." Obviously, this is a great moment for the country, undoubtedly a step forward, but it is also a confusing time as well. That's why like last night on this broadcast, I want to spend some time answering your questions about new guidance on mask.

With us are medical experts. Dr. Paul Offit, Director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, and Dr. Ashish Jha, Dean of Brown University School of Public Health.

Dr. Jha, we're learning more tonight about how the C.D.C. came to this decision. The C.D.C. Director Rochelle Walensky says it was new data from a study on healthcare workers that showed two doses of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines providing 94 percent protection for frontline workers. Has the C.D.C. got it right here? I mean, has there been enough real-world data for vaccinated people to go maskless?

DR. ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Yes, so Anderson, thanks for having me on. The short answer is yes. The C.D.C. has gotten the data right. It's gotten the science right.

There is enough evidence that if you're fully vaccinated, you are safe outdoors and indoors without wearing a mask. The challenge, of course, is how we implement that in a way that is workable across America.

COOPER: Dr. Offit, what are you going to do? I mean, have you gone maskless?

DR. PAUL OFFIT, DIRECTOR OF THE VACCINE EDUCATION CENTER, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: I go maskless outside, but when I went to the grocery store this afternoon, and there were probably 50 to 60 people in the grocery store, about half of whom weren't wearing a mask, I would have to have assumed that all of those people were vaccinated, which I think is a huge assumption. So I chose to wear a mask.

I think that we're asking a lot of citizens, in the perfect world, people who are vaccinated don't have to wear a mask inside as long as those who are unvaccinated wear a mask, and I think that's a lot to ask. And it's certainly going to be impossible to assure.

COOPER: Dr. Jha, because of this new guidance, I mean, do you think COVID cases may rise in areas of the country where there are people -- fewer people are vaccinated?

JHA: Yes, I actually worry about that, Anderson. This is why I don't think that this new C.D.C. guidance should translate into lifting of all indoor mask mandates, particularly places with higher infection rates and low vaccination rates. For exactly that reason, we might very well see a spike in cases.

COOPER: And Dr. Jha, we've got a number of questions from viewers. Liz asked: does it seem like this can be temporary when a new variant comes around, we might need to backtrack on the new guidance? Is that likely?

JHA: I think -- I think that is unlikely. New variants may come around, some of them may be more contagious, but I think our vaccines are really going to hold up. So I remain pretty confident at this moment that fully vaccinated people will be able to continue to be maskless both outdoors and indoors.

COOPER: Dr. Offit, in Utah, the Governor has said the state won't mandate masks to be worn in K through 12 schools during these final few weeks of school. In South Carolina, the governor says schools cannot have a mask mandate. So Elizabeth has a question: what about teachers? Should we still mask up while in the classroom? Students in Horry County, South Carolina do not have to wear masks. What are the risks for fully vaccinated teachers in a roomful of unmasked children? And could I transmit the virus to my unvaccinated seven-year-old?

OFFIT: Right. I guess, I wish that those states had held on for just a few more weeks that are left in the school year, but in any case, you know, if you're around a large number of children who are not wearing masks who certainly can get this infection, roughly 24 percent of the infections currently in the United States are in children.

I guess, where I a teacher, I would choose to wear a mask.

[20:05:15]

COOPER: But even if that teacher has been vaccinated?

OFFIT: Yes, and I think the reason -- first of all, no vaccine is a hundred percent effective. When you say 94 percent, that's not a hundred percent; two, and this alludes to a previous question. Some of these variants, not so much the b.1.1.7 variant, the U.K. variant, but other variants like the South African variant, or the Brazilian variant, or one of the New York variants are somewhat resistant to immunity induced by vaccines so that you're less likely to be protected against mild or low moderate disease. And if you're trying to avoid any nature of disease, I would wear a mask in that situation.

COOPER: Dr. Jha, somebody who has been vaccinated, even if they do get infected and have what is termed a mild case, there are a lot of people who had mild cases of COVID who have long haul symptoms. Is that still a concern for people who have been vaccinated? I asked this question last night, but I'm still unclear on it.

JHA: Well, you're unclear because we don't know, Anderson. We think that if you've been fully vaccinated, you have a breakthrough infection, it will be mild. It usually is. People do fine.

We have not seen cases of long haul COVID, long COVID from people who had breakthrough infections. But we haven't -- we don't have that much experience. We haven't had that many people with breakthrough infections yet. Thank goodness.

We're going to learn more. My guess is, we won't, but we definitely do not know for sure.

COOPER: Dr. Jha, Jessica asks, what about when the vaccine protection starts to decline, and we need booster shots? It's been reported that the vaccine is good up to six months. But that's different for all of us if we can unmask. When do we know when we'll need the booster shot to continue to stay unmasked? We should note it is known that the vaccine is good for at least six months, we're told.

JHA: Yes, that's the key thing, it is at least six months, I think that vaccines are going to last longer than that. We're going to be tracking this closely. We're going to just be monitoring, both looking for correlates of immunity basically, how well is our immune system holding up and then looking for more breakthrough infections.

My guess, Anderson is that we're not going to need a booster this year, most people are not. At some point in 2022, we will, but we're going to have to let the science drive that.

COOPER: Dr. Offit, along the same lines. Donna asks: I'm fully vaccinated, we're still not sure how long immunity lasts. How often should I get an antibody test done? Should people be getting antibody tests after they've been vaccinated to monitor how much protection they have?

OFFIT: No, because they'd be getting the wrong antibody tests. The antibody tests that are commercially available test virus binding antibodies. What you really want to know is the level of virus neutralizing antibodies, which is not easily obtained.

So I guess I wouldn't drive myself crazy with that. But Dr. Jha alluded to this, I think that we're going to learn over the next six months here just how long immunity lasts and then we'll find out really, to what extent we will need these.

COOPER: And Doctor Offit, to families who may be planning to get their 12 to 15-year-old vaccinated this weekend. What's your advice for parents in this age group when it comes to, you know, potential side effects for the vaccine? Are there over the counter medications? You know, they're okay, they should be given?

OFFIT: Well, I think you can assume there's going to be side effects much as they were for adults, especially younger adults, where you can have fever, headache, muscle pain, joint pain and fatigue.

You know, there were a couple of studies done looking at people who right before they got the vaccine, received either anti-fever medicines or anti-inflammatory medicine, which would have the potential of lowering the immune response.

I think once you've already developed, you know, symptoms, it's unclear whether or not giving anti-fever medicines or anti- inflammatory medicines would affect that immune response. My feeling about these things is if you can avoid those medicines, avoid them and see if you can get through the couple days during which these symptoms will last.

COOPER: Dr. Jha, do you think this lifting of the mask mandate essentially by the C.D.C., or at least them recommending that it would be lifted in places or saying it can be, does that -- I mean, does it encourage vaccinations? Or do you worry that it's actually going to make people who haven't been vaccinated feel like okay, well, it's over, why do I even need to be vaccinated? JHA: Yes, so I hope it encourages vaccinations obviously. There will

be some people who are certainly not going to be persuaded by this. But there are other people who I think will hopefully look at the data and say, wow, if you are fully vaccinated, you can go maskless and be safe. That's the key issue, right?

Anybody can go without a mask if you've lifted the mask mandate, but you're not safe, you're going to get -- there is a high risk, you can get infected and you might get sick. So I'm hoping that people will look at the data and really realize that for them to be safe indoors without a mask, they really should be fully vaccinated.

COOPER: I mean, Dr. Offit, you can make the argument, I guess, that it is actually even more urgent that people get vaccinated now if you haven't already been vaccinated because now, there's going to be an awful lot of people running around who you're not going to be able to tell whether or not they've been vaccinated and there may not have mask on and so there's a good chance you can get infected.

OFFIT: Yes, what are we waiting for? I mean, we have a pandemic that has brought us to our knees, I mean, it caused massive joblessness, homelessness, food insecurity, increase in child abuse and domestic abuse, and people have lost their jobs. This is a get out of jail free card.

I mean, this vaccine works about as well as you could ever expect the vaccine to work. It's in the sort of mid-90 percent range of protection. It's safe. It's been given now to -- almost 200 million doses have been given. It doesn't even cause a rare side effect, these mRNA vaccines. Get vaccinated.

[20:10:30]

COOPER: Dr. Paul Offit, Dr. Ashish Jha, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Still to come, Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene's aggressive confrontation with Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. There's new video discovered by CNN showing just how long it's been going on, this kind of behavior.

Also Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez's first public remarks to reporters since another incident this week.

And later, legal troubles mounting for Congressman Matt Gaetz, a former Federal prosecutor joins us to discuss the deal a close confidante the Florida Republican made with Federal investigators and why it may mean more legal problems for Gaetz.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:15:06]

COOPER: Today, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez spoke to reporters about the aggressive and unprovoked, she says, confrontation she had Wednesday with Georgia Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene who has a history of these kind of unhinged moments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): This is a woman that is deeply unwell and clearly needs some help. I -- you know, I -- and her kind of fixation has lasted for several years now.

You know, at this point, I think the depth of that unwellness has raised concerns for other members as well. And so, you know, I think that this is an assessment that needs to be made by the proper professional.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: This week, a "Washington Post" reporter said they witnessed the aggressive encounter, which Greene denies. Congresswoman Ocasio- Cortez's comments come the same day a Greene aide confronted another Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell over his wearing of a mask and that CNN has uncovered a new video showing just how far back Greene's behavior toward the New York Congresswoman really goes.

Congressional correspondent Ryan Nobles joins us now with the latest.

So what can you tell us about that incident, as well as the rising tensions in the Halls of Congress?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, it seems that these confrontations are happening on a semi-regular basis here on Capitol Hill and it really shouldn't come as that big of a surprise when you consider Marjorie Taylor Greene's a history.

She was someone that rose to fame in conservative circles as being somewhat of an internet provocateur who would go around and challenge her political opponents with her phone in hand. And our K-File team uncovered this video of Greene coming up to Capitol Hill before she was sworn into Congress attempting to find Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and confront her. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. I'm an American citizen, I pay your salary for the taxes that you collect from me through the I.R.S. because I'm a taxpaying citizen of the United States.

I'm a woman. I'm a female business owner. And I'm proud to be an American woman.

And I do not support your socialist policies, and I do not support your murderous abortion policies.

As a mother of three children, I'm appalled at New York's law for abortion, and it needs to end and it needs to stop now.

You're bringing God's judgment on our country, and I'm against it, as well as my friends. So you need to stop being a baby and stop locking your door and come out and face the American citizens that you serve.

If you want to be a big girl, you need to get rid of your diaper and come out and be able to talk to the American citizens, instead of us having to use a flap -- a little flap. It's sad.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's like, she keeps flapping her gums, just like --

GREENE: Flappy-flappy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOBLES: And yes, you did see that correctly. That is someone who is now a sitting Member of Congress attempting to yell at another Member of Congress through the mail slot of her office door. So Anderson, it is not a surprise now that the two of them pass each other frequently in the Halls of Congress every day, that there would continue to be dust ups like this, and it seems like this is something that's only happening more, not less.

COOPER: And you know, earlier this week, we saw a number of Republicans in the House just completely lying about what happened in the Capitol on January 6th. I understand some other Republicans on Capitol Hill are also now today offering a distorted version of what happened.

NOBLES: Yes, that's right. This just shows the fundamental lack of trust between these two sides. Congressman Louie Gohmert today on the House floor, suggesting that all the violence and chaos on January 6th that we all saw with our own eyes that police officers have now recounted horrible stories about just wasn't really that bad. He said it was no different than a group of people just coming into a building on a normal day.

This is something that we're seeing a handful of Republicans continue to attempt to rewrite history as to what happened on January 6th, and it's part of the reason there's a fundamental lack of trust between Republicans and Democrats.

COOPER: Louie Gohmert, he was on this show a while back, I recommend people watch the video. Interesting.

Ryan Nobles, thanks very much. Appreciate it.

I am joined now by William Cohen, a Republican who served in both Houses of Congress before taking the position of Secretary of Defense under President Clinton. Secretary Cohen, I appreciate you joining us. Did you ever think -- I mean, it would sort of come to this? I mean, given your -- I mean, you served both in both Houses, you know, in Civil War times, there was, you know, incidents of Members of Congress, you know, assaulting each other. Have you ever seen it like this?

WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I've never seen it like that, Anderson, and thank you for having me on. I spent nearly a quarter of a century on Capitol Hill and I was able

to work with Republicans, Democrats, those who are independents, and they -- all of them had a respect for the institution. To see what is taking place now, it is shameful and shameless and those members who are trying to say, no big deal on January 6th, they are trying to perform a frontal lobotomy on the American people, a side effect, which is mental dullness.

Everyone who watched what took place that day cannot begin to even think this was just a normal day with a bunch of citizens parading through the Halls of Congress, and having a look at the Statuary Hall.

This was an assault upon democracy and what Liz Cheney is doing is not only trying to save the Republican Party, she is trying to save the country. She is trying to save democracy, because if we don't have truth, as George Shultz, former Secretary of State said, without truth, there's no confidence; without confidence, there is no way to hold our country together.

And when you abandon the rule of law, when the government according to one Justice -- when the government becomes a law breaker, it breeds contempt for the rule of law, it invites anarchy. And what we saw on January 6th was anarchy.

And for those members now to say, oh, it's just a day in the life of Members of Congress, it is absurd. It's insulting. It's sort of like what they are doing in Arizona now looking for bamboo in the paper, being bamboozled by these individuals who are looking for some sign of bamboo in the paper. It makes me kind of wish I was back in the year 2000 with the hanging chads. They are putting all that lights on paper and try to look at something coming from the Far East.

COOPER: Yes, also, none of these Republican congressmen who are reinventing what happened on January 6th, I mean, they scurried away to safety. And I'm glad they did get to safety. But they certainly weren't volunteering to go stand with police and go and talk to these, you know, attackers, who they are now claiming were just walking through taking pictures in the Statuary Hall.

I mean, it's not as if, you know, they were actually there and they talk a game now, but when -- you know, when there were actually people marauding through the Capitol, they ran away.

COHEN: There were no Blue Lives Matter signs coming up that day on the part of Members of Congress who normally go waving that flag to say in opposition to Black Lives Matter. But I come back to what is happening to our democracy, because Liz Cheney is saying, I don't want to be a member of the liar's club, where the membership dues are silence and complicity.

She is not going to remain silent. She is not going to be complicit because too much is at stake.

What the party is now doing is we are trying to overturn the events of the election. We are now trying to suppress members so that we become a more white party, a more aggrieved party, a more narrow party, a more lawless party, and basically more violent. That is just a sample.

We saw it in Michigan when they shut down the Capitol. We saw it on Capitol Hill on January 6th, and this is the shape of things to come if we don't become the party that believes in the rule of law and the peaceful transfer of power. Because if we don't have that, you're going to see a suppression of votes. You're going to have people denied the fundamental rights that so many fought and died for and given up and suppress to put a wall around their ability to climb into the voting booth.

I think this is stupid and I think that Liz Cheney deserves a lot of credit for taking on the President or former ex-President directly, and no one else has been doing it as she has done it and I give her a great deal of credit.

COOPER: Secretary William Cohen, appreciate your time. Thank you.

Up next, the plea deal a friend of Congressman Matt Gaetz just struck and whether the Congressman could face more legal trouble.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:27:44]

COOPER: A one-time close associate of Congressman Matt Gaetz has struck a deal with Federal prosecutors and it could mean more legal trouble for the Florida Republican.

Joel Greenberg is his name, a former friend of Gaetz is a former tax collector and is expected to plead guilty on Monday to six Federal crimes including sex trafficking of a child in a deal that calls for him to cooperate as a witness for other Federal investigations.

Now, according to the plea agreement, Greenberg quote: "Introduced the minor to other adult men who engaged in commercial sex acts with the minor." The plea agreement does not identify the other adult men. Gaetz is not mentioned in the 86-page plea deal. He is facing a Justice Department investigation of whether he had sex with a 17-year- old and broke sex trafficking laws.

The Congressman denies the accusations.

Joining me now on this deal is former U.S. attorney and CNN senior legal analyst, Preet Bharara. So Preet, after a court hearing back in April, Greenberg's attorney said quote, "I'm sure Matt Gaetz is not feeling very comfortable today." Do you think it's fair to say it got more uncomfortable for Gaetz today?

PREET BHARARA, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, I mean, so for weeks and weeks, we've been speculating -- excuse me -- for weeks and weeks, we've been speculating about whether or not there would actually be a guilty plea. And more importantly, for these purposes, whether or not the guilty plea would be in the form of a cooperation plea. And we have the answer that right now in an 86-page document, very meticulously detailed document, prosecutors have set forth the underlying facts for the guilty plea and also make very clear that the pleading defendant, Joel Greenberg, has agreed to cooperate fully with authorities, agree to testify at trial.

They only do that, if they believe that that person, Greenberg, in this case, can provide what's called substantial assistance.

Now, there are some other people mentioned in the various counts to which Greenberg pled guilty. But obviously, looming over all of this is the idea that a relatively big fish is sitting United States Congressman Matt Gaetz is in the crosshairs. We know that from the documents. We know that from the reporting. We know that from Joel Greenberg's own taunting of Matt Gaetz.

So I think it's gotten very serious for the Congressman.

COOPER: Yes, I mean, Federal investigators do not hand out plea deals to alleged child sex traffickers for nothing. And what is the bar? What is the bar?

BHARARA: Well, it depends on the particular circumstances of the case, it also depends on whether or not they think a particular witness who has pled guilty is going to be credible and this guy, Joel Greenberg has a lot of credibility problem.

And so the bar for someone like him is higher than the garden variety cooperator case because he is not only been accused of, but is now pleading guilty to not just crimes of mendacity, of lying and making misrepresentations, but very odious ones. I mean, all the attention is upon the guilty plea to the sex trafficking of a minor, which is a very, very serious crime, of course.

[20:30:34]

But there's another crime to which he's pled guilty, in which he decided to take action against someone who decided to run against him as tax collector in his county by pretending to be a student who accused his potential political adversary, of being a pedophile, of being a sexual predator of being a white supremacist. That's an odious guy. And for them to believe that he could be a good witness at a trial against someone else, they must believe he has substantial testimony to give.

COOPER: So, how does something like this work? It -- has he already -- would he have already given them all the information he has --

BHARARA: Yes.

COOPER: -- about others?

BHARARA: Yes. So typically, what would happen is, and that's why I think it's taken so long and went up just the eve of trial. He was supposed to go to trial at any moment, they will have to briefed him through, you know, the proffers meaning meetings with the prosecutors, where he would have been asked all the information he has about himself his own crimes, the crimes of others, presumably, Matt Gaetz, whether or not there's going to ultimately be a charge against Matt Gaetz, although I suspect there will be. That is already under the bridge. They've gotten all that they have interview notes of all. That they probably started drafting charging documents against other people. Only after you do all that you get a plea agreement like this, on which you sign and then actually have an allocution before the judge on Monday.

COOPER: And can we expect the U.S. Attorney's office I mean, to move pretty quickly.

BHARARA: You know, it's hard to know, my senses if there is going to be a charge against other people, including the current Congressman, given how much time has gone by, given how much attention there is to this, given how much time has been spent with this witness. I mean, apparently has been talking to authorities for some months now.

Given the detail of the document that they put out in the public 86 pages as I mentioned, I would not be surprised you never know. But I would not be surprised if we see some charges against other people including the Congressman within weeks, not months.

COOPER: Preet Bharara, appreciate it Thanks so much.

BHARARA: Thanks, Anderson.

COOPER (voice-over): Coming up, an audit or update I should say on that so-called the audit being conducted in Arizona and why moving day there has well a brand new meaning.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:36:30]

COOPER: Well, the alleged review of millions of votes cast and Arizona's biggest county is on hold tonight after proceeding very slowly through a thicket of pretty strange conspiracy theories all linked to the former president's big lie that the election was stolen. So-called the audit was orchestrated by Republicans in the Arizona State Senate and is now is being put on pause while high school graduations are held in the building that was used for counting.

CNN's Kyung Lah has covered the drama from the get-go has this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Moving day in Phoenix for the precious cargo of democracy. Approximately 2.1 million ballots cast in the 2020 election in Arizona's most populous county Maricopa.

Lifted by forklifts, loaded onto trucks, leaving this coliseum because of scheduled high school graduations. Driven across the hot pavement of the Arizona fairgrounds, the trucks passed by the Crazy Times Carnival. For the last two weeks with carnival has been running, carnival goers heading here when they have to use the bathroom, that same green building where Maricopa County's ballots are being housed for the next week. Sitting just a few 100 yards south of the coliseum where the audit was happening. The Westlake Bolin building comes with a warning, facility rental paperwork states due to temperatures during the summer months. This building is not recommended for use.

The trailer says the Arizona Senate Liaison are being individually cooled.

(on-camera): Will that facility be controlled climate controlled as well. It's moisture controlled?

KEN BENNETT, ARIZONA SENATE LIASON: Yes. That means they'll be in a locked container with 24/7 armed guards, fencing and 24/7 live streaming cameras.

LAH (voice-over): All of this is a partisan led exercise in pursuit of the big lie that the 2020 election was stolen from former President Donald Trump. Despite two audits by Maricopa County, the GOP controlled Senate hired a little known tech company called Cyber Ninjas to run this count.

RYAN MACIAS, ELECTION TECHNOLOGY EXPERT: To see something like this whereby you're actually moving it in the midst of the process and then stopping altogether for a week on end and then getting restarted yet again. That is something I've never seen.

LAH (voice-over): Ryan Macias is an expert in election technology. He watched the ballots move hired by the Arizona Secretary of State to observe Cyber Ninjas ballot count. As ridiculous as all of this looks, Macias' fears the fallout.

MACIAS: Unfortunately, we're at a spot right now where faith has been lost. And again, we should be trying to build the truth and building back trust.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: And Kyung joins us right now. Just want to know, I'm a little confused when they announced their results, how will anybody know if it's those were actually the results they got or just the results they want it?

LAH: Very good question. I don't know. And I don't think a lot of the people who are watching this process actually know and that's part of the problem is that the procedures have been so different, that it's very difficult to tell what they're looking for and what conspiracy theories are trying to prove.

And then, you know, you saw the ballots moving in and out today. They're currently in this building over here. They're going to be here for one week. They're going to move back in and then they're going to start counting again. And it's unprecedented for it (INAUDIBLE).

[20:40:00]

Here's one other thing Anderson, if they don't finish by July 11th, there is a gun show. They're going to have to do this whole thing again, moving back and forth. So, one thing we can tell you though, Anderson, I am pleased to tell you we do know that one thing will end this carnival here the Crazy Times Carnival, it does end on Saturday. Anderson.

COOPER: It's crazy times continue. Kyung Lah, thanks very much. Appreciate it.

Joining me now is Arizona Secretary of State Katie Hobbs, who goes without saying has had her hands full with this whole exercise.

Secretary Hobbs, let me ask you just let's just start with that my first question. My last question to Kyung which is, so these people, the Cyber Ninjas announced their results, how is there any proof that those are actually the results that they got?

KATIE HOBBS, SECRETARY OF STATE, ARIZONA: Well, the fact is Anderson there, there is no proof at all. I mean, we have -- the fact that we were able to get observers in there and have some transparency into the process has just reinforced the concerns we already had about what's going on in there. And you know, the way that they're handling things, the way that they're aggregating results is just prime for cooking the books.

COOPER: So, I mean, if they make an announcement that they found 100,000 bamboo shoots in mixed, you know, in these ballots, which is evidence that they were Xeroxed in Asia (ph) and FedExed over here. There's nothing to say that that didn't happen, right, other than the fact that it didn't happen. And, you know, these have already been recounted by officials who are of all parties and nonpartisan in this process.

HOBBS: Yes. And I just want to clarify, there has not been a recount in Arizona. We've done hand count audits of randomly selected precincts, according to statute. And we've done a forensic audit of the equipment in Maricopa County. So just want to clarify that.

But yes, no, this whole thing is just over and over again. We see they're making it up as they go along. You can't make up this stuff. But there's a Crazy Times Carnival outside, just so many glaring things that would not be happening if this were a true post election audit.

COOPER: So, you've been outspoken on this audit, from the very beginning called it a fraud. Supporters of it say, well, what are Democrats upset about? I think at least Evonik said that essentially, what are Democrats upset about? What -- you know, are they trying to hide something? What is the potential damage here?

HOBBS: I mean, the potential damage is far reaching in terms of undermining election integrity far into the future. We have free and fair elections in America, they're the cornerstone of our democracy. And part of that system is there are winners and losers, but we trust the systems that are in place. We can't go to a system like this where everybody's just double questioning everything. When we followed the laws, and did things by the books and passed all of the post election audits. It's just, it's craziness. And it just, this just continues to undermine our democracy and is based on one losers, failure to be able to accept the fact that he lost.

COOPER: And as of last night, only 500,000 ballots out of the 2.1 million total had been counted or allegedly counted by this group. Could this end up just being kind of an open ended thing that goes on and on? Because I mean, if that's all they've done in this amount of time, as Kyung said, there's a gun show coming in July.

HOBBS: Right. And I don't know the pace that they're counting at it seems like they sped up and got a little bit more done in these last few days than they had been able to get to before. But yes, I mean, I just think their processes continue to change which undermines the accuracy of results. And yes, I just I -- and the other fact that they're continuing to make money off of this and so the longer it extends out, the better it is for that bottom line.

COOPER: Yes. Katie Hobbs, I appreciate it. Thank you.

HOBBS: Thank you.

COOPER (voice-over): Next up, video services have another incident where a person of color dies in the hands of law enforcement, this time in South Carolina in a jail. Details when we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:48:24]

COOPER: It took four long months for a South Carolina family to finally see firsthand how their loved one Jamal Sutherland died while in custody the Charleston County jail. Now, the public is getting a first look at the disturbing video from January 5th. Two hours worth of footage was released late last night and what it shows raises questions yet again, about the use of force particularly against people of color and how law enforcement handles people with mental illness.

Want to warn you the video is disturbing. CNN's Natasha Chen has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On New Year's Eve Jamal Sutherland's families as they brought him to a behavioral health facility, as they say he long struggled with mental illness. Five days later, 31-year-old Sutherland allegedly punched a staff member in the midst of a fight between patients and staff.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Several patients are fighting right now.

CHEN (voice-over): Sutherland was taken to the county jail but not to the medical facility. Instead to an area reserved for misbehaving inmates according to a family attorney.

JAMAL SUTHERLAND, VICTIM: Let go of me. Now. (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. CHEN (voice-over): At about 9:15 the next morning, Charleston County deputies attempted to move Sutherland from his jail cell for his scheduled bond hearing.

SUTHERLAND: I'm warning you, I'm warning you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll be back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And drop the spoon in front of the door.

CHEN (voice-over): In the videos a deputy is heard saying Sutherland has refused to leave his cell and took a quote aggressive stance. At about 9:29 a.m. you can hear sounds of pepper spray being used.

And Sutherland coughing with a blanket around his head. After a few minutes of Sutherland not complying to come to the door, another round of pepper spray. Then deputies open the door a third time.

[20:50:07]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

CHEN (voice-over): Then you can hear a taser firing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn in your stomach.

SUTHERLAND: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn in your stomach. Turn in your stomach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand to the door.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Slide to the door.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you understand slide to the door.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you understand (INAUDIBLE).

SUTHERLAND: I can't stand up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand up, stand up.

CHEN (voice-over): Deputies tell Sutherland to keep sliding toward the door which he does.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's the meaning of this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep coming, keep coming.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE). UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn in your stomach. Turn in your stomach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn in your stomach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For what?

CHEN (voice-over): Deputies then enter the cell to handcuff him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do not resist.

SUTHERLAND: I'm not resisting Officer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

CHEN (voice-over): Deputies tased him again. Sutherland screams. His legs flailing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

CHEN (voice-over): This chaotic struggle goes on for about two minutes.

SUTHERLAND: I can't breathe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

CHEN (voice-over): Until Sutherland is eventually handcuffed. Two minutes later he's dragged out of his cell and into the common area. By the time Sutherland is lifted into a wheelchair, he is motionless.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is he alright?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is he seizing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

CHEN (voice-over): Medics arrive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He got tased about probably six to eight times at least.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).

CHEN (voice-over): And after EMF (ph) spends about 35 minutes trying to revive him, a blanket is placed over his body.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Natasha Chen joins us now. So, I understand you spoke with Jamal Sutherland's mother, what did she tell you?

CHEN: Yes, Anderson, she was at a press conference today and you could see how difficult this was emotionally for her just listening to the family attorney recount what happened in that disturbing video you just saw. She said to us that mental illness does not give anybody the right to put their hands on her child and that Jamal was an example of what she wanted him to be.

And after that press conference later in the afternoon, the sheriff, Kristin Graziano also gave a press conference, as she said that the deputies involved are on administrative desk duty pending the outcome of an internal investigation. She also said that some changes have already been made. For example, residents of the facility can waive their appearance for a bond hearing and there's a policy now that residents must get the medications they need.

She did acknowledge too that the sheriff's office really needs more mental health professionals because Anderson right now they only have one.

COOPER: Natasha Chen, appreciate it. Thank you.

(voice-over): Still to come, growing fears in the Middle East is rockets turn buildings to rubble, families flee, a live report from Jerusalem, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:56:51]

COOPER: Tonight there's growing tension across Israel, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Rockets have been tearing to buildings in Gaza City, Palestinian families have fled. The destruction and death toll climbing on both sides at least eight people killed in Israel, eight civilians, one soldier according to the Israeli military. They said their operation in Gaza is focusing on destroying an underground network of tunnels used by Hamas.

Across the West Bank, more clashes though throughout the day and the senior Hamas official is warning Israel against any ground invasion. CNN's Ben Wedeman now joins us from Jerusalem with the latest.

Ben first what do we know the death toll in Gaza? And what are the last 24 hours been like in Israel and throughout the region?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we've seen is that particularly today is that in addition to the back and forth between Gaza. In addition to the intercommunal violence within Israel itself. The new element is that the West Bank now seems to have risen up. We were in Bethlehem during for a Friday, course today's Saturday. And what we saw is that their demonstrations across the West Bank were vast and so was the casualty figures.

In fact, today or rather, on Friday, 10 people were killed in clashes across the West Bank, more than 1,300 injured. We have not seen these numbers in the West Bank since the Second Intifada. And the pattern here is always been. People are killed the following day. There are demonstrations after the funerals. And those results in more deaths. And tomorrow is what's known as Nakba Day. That is the day that commemorates the creation of the State of Israel in 1948 and the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.

So we have more petrol being thrown on an already blazing fire here Anderson.

COOPER: Yes. Were so the death toll there in Gaza are 126 so far. The UN Secretary General's call for all parties to immediately cease fighting. Is there, I mean, there's no sign that that is going to take place.

WEDEMAN: No. Cause like that, at the moment seem to be falling on deaf ears. We know that the Israelis have made it clear they have objectives in Gaza that they want to achieve. And they are going to go ahead with their operation until they achieve it. Now we've heard that in previous instances when Gaza and Israel went to war, when Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon that went to war, but oftentimes those objectives are not achieved and therefore this is one of the reason why this is the fourth war we've covered in Gaza since 2008.

On the Palestinian side, they also -- they clearly are hoping for some sort of cessation of hostilities, but at the moment, there doesn't seem to be any effort that's gaining traction to bring this fighting to a close. Anderson.

[21:00:13]

COOPER: Yes. Ben Wedeman, be careful. Thank you for being there.

The news continues. Let's head over to Chris for "CUOMO PRIMETIME." Chris.