IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                 FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
 
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
 
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
 
    Plaintiff,
 
vs.
 
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
 
    Defendant.
 

                     REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
                 (Trial to Jury:  Volume 137)

         Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 1:45 p.m., on the 19th day of December,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.



 Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
  Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
    P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294
                          APPEARANCES
         PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
         LARRY MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY MEARNS, JAMIE
ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
         MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, ADAM THURSCHWELL, REID
NEUREITER, and JANE TIGAR, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln
Street, Suite 1308, Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for
Defendant Nichols.
                         *  *  *  *  *
                          PROCEEDINGS
    (In open court at 1:45 p.m.)
         THE COURT:  Be seated, please.
         We're going to bring in the jury and recess their
deliberations for the weekend.
    (Jury in at 1:46 p.m.)
         THE COURT:  Members of the jury, good afternoon.
         JURORS:  Good afternoon.
         THE COURT:  Well, we were talking about working till
2:00 today -- having you work till 2:00; but I notice the
weather -- looks like it's going to be changing, and I thought
we'd recess a little early to get you out ahead of whatever
might be coming in in the weather, make sure you get home
safely.
         But before doing that, of course, I want to talk to
you a little about the situation as it stands.  My
understanding is that you have asked to take the weekend off
and not to deliberate during the weekend.
         And I'm going to grant that request.  But before you
leave, I do want to again emphasize a few things.  And I'm not
just saying this so there is something in the record, either.
You know, during the course of the trial, I often said I know
you remember these things from time to time but I've got to
repeat them because the rules require me to do it.  But what I
am saying to you now I say with the greatest of sincerity, and
I hope you listen carefully and will respond accordingly, as I
am confident you will.
         A jury in deliberation, of course, is quite a bit
different from a jury in the course of the trial.  It's one
thing for me to do, as every time we recess during the trial
and over the weekends during the trial -- to ask of you to keep
open minds, to avoid discussion of the case or anything about
it with others, to be careful that you not read, see, or hear
of anything that would affect your verdict, and all that, those
instructions that I gave you over and over again.
         It is different.  You've been working hard this week,
I know.  And you've been discussing the case, and you know that
you have the evidence and you have the law.  And you have
exchanged some views, I'm sure, in the course of this.  And
again, I repeat what I said yesterday and what I said as we
recessed and what I said in the instructions: that you must not
reveal to the Court or to anyone else how the jury stands
numerically or otherwise on the questions before you until
you've reached a unanimous verdict.  And that, of course,
includes the discussions that you have, views, opinions,
recollections that you've exchanged among yourselves.  All of
that is to be kept within your group, the 12 of you, and not
shared with anyone else, not this court, not any members of
your family, not any friends, no one else.
         And you know, there are a lot of ways to look at how a
court should work with a deliberating jury.  And I suppose the
safest view that a lot of people have is, well, once they start
deliberations, they ought to be kept separate and apart from
everybody else, kept together until -- throughout the
deliberations.  And during the time when the jury -- jurors are
not deliberating, they ought to be separated and ought to be
sort of subject to censorship rules so that they don't have
access to television and newspapers and the like.
         Now, I suppose that's the -- a view that a lot of
people take and say, well, that's the safe thing to do.  And
then you can be sure that jurors are not out talking with
anyone or having anyone talk to them or being -- come into
contact with anything outside of the evidence.
         But I've worked with juries, a lot of juries in a lot
of difference trials, both as lawyer and judge over a lot of
years.  And I've learned some things about jurors.  They're
people.  And they're human beings, and they get tired.  And
there is a certain level of stress that is involved with the
job of sifting through the evidence and analyzing and recalling
all that you've heard in the course of the trial.  And they
need a break from that.  And it's one thing to give
deliberating jurors a break in some hotel or somewhere like
that but yet stay together; but it's a lot easier, a lot more
restful, for people to go to their own homes and to be able --
you know, jurors have lives other than in the courthouse.  And
I respect that and recognize -- all of us who are involved in
this trial respect and recognize that.  And so we want you to
have some time off.
         And indeed, sometimes, like in any other job, it's
good to get away from our fellow workers for a while.  I don't
mean to suggest anything by that; but you've been working in
close quarters and working hard on this case, and you probably
would all benefit from a little time out.
         And of course, when I look at two-and-a-half days, I
think that's a lot of time out; but I know that you recognize
the responsibility that you have and the trust and confidence
that have been placed in you.  And accordingly, we're going to
grant your request and recess and permit you to separate.
         But once again, I want to emphasize how important it
is that you must not discuss this case and certainly not the
deliberations of the jury with anybody; not spouses, not
children, not friends, not anybody you come into contact with.
         You know, I have the same thing.  Judges have lives
outside of courthouses, too -- although it might seem strange
for you to realize that -- and families.  And you know, people
that I come in contact with say:  Well, how is it going down
there?  And, of course, I have to say:  Well, I can't talk
about it; you know that.  And that's the way you have to
respond with anybody who questions you about it.
         Now, we also know that being human beings -- we're
fallible and things can happen.  Sometimes there can be a slip:
You say something or somebody says something to you that
shouldn't be.  And I just want to remind you, as I did during
the trial, that if you should in any way have some slip-up with
respect to these cautionary instructions, I want you to let me

know about it.  And the way in which to do that, just as I said
through the course of the trial at times when there was always
the possibility that you'd see a headline or somebody say
something in front of you or to you that would relate to the
trial -- as I told you, don't discuss that with any other juror
certainly and just write me a note about what happened.
         And so I repeat that again so that if it has happened
or does happen, you just give me a note about what's happened
without talking to anybody else about it, because we know --
and particularly this time of year there are, you know, family
gatherings.  You hear from friends and relatives at this time
of year and more than the usual contact.  So naturally, people
who find that you're on a jury or know that you're on this jury
are going to want to ask you about it or are going to want to
talk to you about it.  So be very careful and let me know with
a written note if anything like that has or does happen.
         And then, of course, you do have to be careful.  I'm
not going to tell you to go sit in a dark room all weekend.
You, I'm sure, have some things that you want to do.  But be
very careful, because you know what your responsibility is, you
know that you're going to be back here on Monday resuming this
job that you have.  And we want you to be able to come back
refreshed, ready to take up where you've left off today, and to
decide this case according to the law and the evidence.
         So as I say, all of us here who participated in this
trial have the confidence and the trust in you that you will
perform your duty according to the law and the evidence and the
oath that you've taken as jurors in this case.
         You know, you were selected from a large number of
people as the jurors to try and decide this case.  And that's
what we expect you to do.
         So with all of that, we'll ask you to be back on
Monday at the usual time and then to undertake your
deliberations then.
         We have, as I think has been explained to you --
you've been working over there with the exhibits, I know; and
we have sealed that room, too, so that whatever you may have
over there with respect to notes or whatever, the arrangement
that you may have the exhibits in, you can rest assured that
others are not going to know about that, because even the staff
working here, of course, should not know anything about the way
in which you're working.
         So we have signs on those doors and that will be
sealed, and no one will be going in there but you.
         So with all that, members of the jury, you're now
excused until Monday morning.  And we do hope that you have a
restful weekend and that you just put this matter aside now.
That's the objective during this time.  Of course, you don't,
you know, as I told you before -- don't call another juror up
and talk with her or him or anything like that.  Put this aside
for now.  That's the spirit in which I'm granting your request
for a little rest and relaxation.  You deserve it, and we know
that you'll come back refreshed and ready to resume your duties
on Monday.
         You're excused until then.
    (Jury out at 1:57 p.m.)
         THE COURT:  Court will be in recess subject to call.
    (Recess at 1:58 p.m.)
                         *  *  *  *  *
                    REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
    I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from
the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.  Dated
at Denver, Colorado, this 19th day of December, 1997.
 

                                 _______________________________
                                         Paul Zuckerman