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Tonight; New York Primary Is Tuesday; Sanders Courts African- American Vote; Trump Campaign Heads To Capitol Hill; Clinton and Sanders Debate; Delegate Threats. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired April 14, 2016 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[13:00:03] DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: What a beautiful day it is here in Brooklyn. It's sunny, but it's a little bit chilly. And we're all ready for tonight. Hello, I'm Don Lemon here at CNN's -- the site of CNN's Democratic presidential debate in Brooklyn, New York.

Wolf Blitzer is getting ready for tonight. He's got some great questions for both candidates. He's going to be moderating this debate. So, wherever you're watching from around the world, thank you so much for joining us.

Again, I'm Don Lemon in for Wolf who's getting ready for tonight. Just eight hours from now, eight hours from now, Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders will take to the stage. They're going to grapple in their final debate before the all-important New York primary on Tuesday. It's a face-off that comes at a very crucial juncture in this campaign, as you look at pictures of inside of the hall.

And on one side, you have Hillary Clinton who has won more delegates, more popular votes and more states. And then, on the other side, you've got Bernie Sanders who has won eight of the past nine contests. In other words, this is about math versus momentum. And in the past few days, both campaigns have ramped up their attack, hitting each other harder on character and on policy. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Our job is to stand up to these powerful special interests, not to take their money.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Under the bright spotlight and scrutiny here in New York, Senator Sanders has had trouble answering questions.

BERNIE SANDERS: I don't think you are qualified if you have supported virtually every disastrous trade agreement.

CLINTON: Seriously, I've been called a lot of things over the years but unqualified has not been one of them.

BERNIE SANDERS: She may have the experience to be president of the United States, but in terms of her judgment, something is clearly lacking. BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I get the

feeling that the gentleman that's running against Hillary is running harder against President Obama and me than he is against the legacy of the Bush Administration in trickledown economics. You know, after he's been a Democrat a little while longer, he'll get used to it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Joining me now is CNN Correspondent Chris Frates and CNN Senior Media Correspondent and Host of "RELIABLE SOURCES," which I watch every Sunday, Mr. Brian Stelter.

So, Chris, let's start with you. You know, the tone of this campaign has turned bitter. If there are fireworks on stage tonight, what do you think it's going to be over?

CHRIS FRATES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, I think listening to this campaign, it's gotten a little bit nasty. You've had Bernie Sanders questioning Hillary Clinton's judgment, her qualifications. But when you look at the topics that they've been going back and forth on, there's kind of three big areas. And I think you have the Iraq War. You have trade. And you have Wall Street.

On the Iraq War, of course, Bernie Sanders has continued to try to make that an issue, pointing out that Hillary Clinton voted for that war, that he voted against it, that he heard all of the same intelligence that Hillary Clinton did and he made a better call. Of course, that plays very well with Democrats, that he's trying to get out that liberal base.

Also on trade, you know, he found after Michigan, where he did very well, that that was a good issue for them. He's been hitting Hillary Clinton, saying that she endorsed these trade agreements that cost millions of Americans their jobs. And so, you continue to hear her defend her positions there. She has said in the past that NAFTA was a mistake.

The other thing that will be interesting to watch is Wall Street. Of course, we've heard Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders go back and forth on this issue before. Sanders talking about how she's taken six-figure checks from Wall Street firms. She can't be the person who is going to rein in Wall Street and that --

LEMON: Yes.

FRATES: -- he's the only guy who could really break up the banks here.

Now, Hillary Clinton, of course, I think she'll be able to talk about, well, what is your plan, Bernie Sanders, to break up the banks? He had trouble in that "New York Daily News" editorial explaining that. I would look for her to go after him very hard and say, well, --

LEMON: Yes.

FRATES: -- what are the specifics, Senator, in how you would do that? LEMON: And so, you know, and they're going to be fighting, talking about Wall Street, right, and on Wall Street basically right across the river.

Brian, you know Clinton has -- they've debated eight times before.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Right.

LEMON: This one is being called the battle of Brooklyn. So, as we take a look at this, this is a video of our crews -- time lapse of our crews setting up the stage. Explain how this debate seems different because of the backdrop. We are -- not -- no -- you know, this is the money capitol of the world but also the media capital of the world.

STELTER: That's right which means that's even more of a microscope on this debate. And there was just a media walkthrough here in the greenhouse. The D.C. bureau chief for CNN, Sam Feist, saying that CNN and New York want to make this an authentically New York debate. And when I say media capital of the world, it matters because it means that this debate's going to be amplified even more than other debates.

For example, 700 reporters credentialed to be here. That's less than (INAUDIBLE.) That's less than 500 for the past debates in March. It's been more than a month since we've seen a debate. So, I think there is pent up interest and curiosity about what happens tonight at this debate.

And then, as you mentioned, we're really right across the river from downtown Manhattan, from lower Manhattan, from Wall Street. I do wonder how Sanders will work that into his argument and how Clinton will work it in as well.

LEMON: It's beautiful. I mean, I got CNN all along the river here.

STELTER: It's unusual to have a debate here. And, by the way, one more point. This might be the last debate. We don't know for sure because there's one that's tentatively scheduled for May. But there's nothing on the books after tonight.

[13:05:03] Clinton would like this to be the last debate. We'll see if that's true or not. But this could be the last time we see these two candidates on stage together.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Brian. I appreciate it. See you guys a little bit later on, especially here on CNN. We'll be watching you.

All right. So, the Sanders' campaign isn't just taking aim at Hillary Clinton but also the Democratic primary process in general. Here is Jane Sanders on "NEW DAY" just this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANE SANDERS: I just don't think it's very Democratic. I mean, the fact is that a lot of people that might want to vote for Bernie here in New York, unless they registered as Democrats last October, they're not going to be able to unless they're new voters. That is crazy. We're bringing in so many new people into the party, and yet the party is slamming the door on those voters.

(END VIDEO CLIP)"

LEMON: And, you know, for his part, Sanders also slammed the way the primary calendar is set up. Here he is speaking on the "Nightly Show" with Larry Wilmore.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BERNIE SANDERS: One can argue -- there are people that say, why does Iowa go first? Why does New Hampshire go first?

LARRY WILMORE, HOST, "NIGHTLY SHOW": Yes.

BERNIE SANDERS: But I think that having so many southern states go first, --

WILLMORE: Yes.

BERNIE SANDERS: -- it starts reality as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Joining me now is Brian Fallon, Press Secretary for Hillary Clinton for Hillary for America. And, Brian, what's your response? The Sanders' campaign basically saying that the -- you know, the Democratic primary, it distorts the process, distorts reality, and it's -- it alienates potential voters. Do you agree with that?

BRIAN FALLON, PRESS SECRETARY, HILLARY FOR AMERICA: It's hard to understand exactly what he's trying to get at because, by every measure, Hillary Clinton has outperformed Bernie Sanders where it counts which is at the polls.

If you look at the raw popular vote, in terms of the number of people that have cast their ballot in all of the primaries that have happened so far, Hillary Clinton exceeds Bernie Sanders' vote total by 2.4 million people. It's not even close. She's won more states than him. He's won more pledged delegates than him.

So, by every standard, she is outperforming him at the polls, at the ballot box. I think that's what counts.

LEMON: Twenty-three eighty-three is what counts when you get to the convention. Jane Sanders is saying, she doesn't believe that that's going to happen. Do you think there's going to be a brokered convention like they're predicting on the Republican side?

FALLON: No, absolutely not. I think because there's been so much speculation about that on the Republican side, that the Sanders' campaign is trying to introduce that theory and to the discussion here on the Democratic side. We are confident that we will clinch the nomination well ahead of the convention. I think most observers agree with that, too, based on the extremely large delegate lead that we have already. And then, based on some of the states that are still upcoming, including New York here next Tuesday, we expect to add to that delegate lead in New York and in the states that vote on the 26th.

So, I don't think that there's -- there's zero chance, I think, of a brokered convention on the Democratic side.

LEMON: I want to -- I want to read something. This is from Tad Devine, the Senior Sanders' Campaign Advisor. Here's what he told "The Daily Beast," Brian. It's about the increasing attacks in the Democratic race. He said, quote, "If you go to New York and you have someone who is tough and aggressive and someone who is not going to engage, the tough and aggressive candidate wins. We're determined not to be the victim here." Basically, he's saying he's not going to be pushed around by the Clinton campaign. What's your response to that?

FALLON: Well, he shouldn't want to be pushed around and I don't think he has been. If you look at this back and forth that developed a couple weeks ago where the Sanders campaign -- Bernie Sanders, himself, outright called Hillary Clinton unqualified. That was an unprovoked attack on her. Hillary Clinton --

LEMON: He did walk it back.

FALLON: He did but he was the one that introduced that into the conversation. And ever since then, he's only repackaged those same criticisms using different words.

So, he is now, in the last five days, questioned her qualifications, questioned her fitness for office, questioned her credibility. This is a far cry from what Senator Sanders said several months ago when we started this campaign that he would resist any personal negative attacks. But if what he's been saying in the last few days doesn't count as a personal attack, I don't know what does.

And that's why, I think, increasingly, you see campaign surrogates, on behalf of Senator Sanders, taking their cues from his rhetoric. And, increasingly, you see unwanted and unwarranted personal attacks coming from some of his main surrogates.

LEMON: The secretary spoke in front of civil rights' activists yesterday, that followed her husband clashing with black lives matter. And then, the joke that some deemed insensitive with Mayor De Blasio the other day. Does the secretary need a do-over on some of these issues, do you believe?

FALLON: No, I think that this is -- the support of the African- American community which both campaigns are actively seeking here in New York --

LEMON: It's interesting that she's been criticized for it but she has the majority support.

FALLON: But that is support that we will never take for granted. We know that we have to earn and re-earn it. And that's why we're campaigning so heavily on the issues that matter most to voters from criminal justice reform, to economic opportunity, to education. Hillary Clinton has put these issues at the forefront of her campaign.

What I think was a strange comment, in the last couple days, you played it in the lead into this segment, was Senator Sanders questioning the calendar by suggesting that, quote, unquote, "southern states" have tipped the balance, in terms of the nomination process.

LEMON: Yes.

[13:10:02] FALLON: I don't know what point he's making there. I don't think that the Democratic primary electorate in those, quote, unquote, "southern states" is conservative. It's certainly diverse. I don't know if he's making a suggestion that with respect to the diversity of those states and their placement on the calendar.

But to answer that point even further, you know, two of the first three states that participated were caucus states in Iowa and Nevada. Those are states, caucuses, that he has largely been favored in. In those two states, we beat him.

LEMON: Do you -- do you think this is something -- because, again, this week, those three things that I mentioned, I mean, they were talked about a lot in the press. The thing with the mayor is interesting because many people did not find it to be an issue except for either Bernie Sanders' supporters or people on the right who just don't like Hillary Clinton. Do you think that that was an issue that was made up by people who just don't like Hillary Clinton?

FALLON: Well, honestly, I don't feel that's my place to say. If somebody did take offense to that, that's their purgative. That's their right. I wouldn't question that. And, obviously, what the mayor has said and we agree with it, no offense was intended to anyone that might have suggested that that was -- that that comment wasn't appropriate. The mayor has defended the comments, said that the goal there was only to mock himself. And so, we defer to the mayor there. Obviously, no offense was intended to anyone.

LEMON: Do you think that by Bernie Sanders going over and meeting with the pope that -- are you worried that this will get on the edge with Catholics or Hispanics or any one -- any one group?

FALLON: I don't think so. I think that we are continuing to reach a wide audience here in New York. And I don't think we'll have any problems mobilizing the voters that we will need to win on Tuesday. You know, some have questioned whether the Sanders' campaign leaving the state of New York during this critical stretch three days out from Tuesday's primary is wise.

LEMON: Do you think it's a good idea?

FALLON: Well, I'll leave that -- I'm not going to second guess their scheduling decisions. We are going to be campaigning intensely here right up to the wire. We want to run through the tape and -- because we think that New York is going to be a very decisive state. I think it's make or break for Senator Sanders. He needs to win here in order to truly still have a path remaining to the nomination.

LEMON: Brian, thank you. See you tonight.

FALLON: Thanks.

LEMON: Thank you very much.

And coming up, Bernie Sanders speaking to a major civil rights organization in New York, the day after Hillary Clinton spoke to the same group. Can he sell his message to the American -- African- American community?

And the Trump campaign heads to Capitol Hill for a strategy session.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. CHRIS COLLINS (R), NEW YORK: We talked about 1,237. And I can tell you, we got to 1,265 in a conservative way. And I think we all know that that's the key.

[13:12:33]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:16:28] LEMON: What a great day in Brooklyn. As I said earlier, it's sunny, but it is a bit chilly. But this is nothing for New Yorkers.

We're just hours away from the CNN Democratic debate here in Brooklyn. And take a look now inside of the debate hall. They're getting ready. They're almost ready. I can say people will start streaming in at any moment now.

Just days away from the primary this happening as Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders prepare to take the stage, they are sharpen their attacks. Just a short time ago, Sanders spoke to the National Action Network's 25th anniversary national convention. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You elect me president, you're going to have a president who is prepared to take on the billionaire class, not take their money!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Hmmm. So let's discuss this now. I am joined now by Linda Sarsour, she's a Bernie Sanders' supporter and the co-founder of the Muslim Democratic Club of New York.

Thank you very much for joining us.

LINDA SARSOUR, CO-FOUNDER, MUSLIM DEMOCRATIC CLUB OF NEW YORK: Thank you for having me.

LEMON: You know in the past couple of weeks, right, that the rhetoric has really changed, right? It's become a bit nastier. What kind of strategy? What's Bernie Sanders' strategy tonight, do you think?

SARSOUR: Bernie Sanders is going to keep doing what he's talking and talking about income inequality and he has continued to be consistent on the issues that he speaks of and we're hoping that he does the same and brings it home for New York.

LEMON: We heard earlier from one of his -- one of his surrogates for the campaign saying, listen, if you come to New York, right, you have to be aggressive. The aggressor wins in New York.

SARSOUR: That's kind of our style --

LEMON: (INAUDIBLE) --

SARSOUR: That's kind of our style in New York, but I don't think that Bernie Sanders has been an aggressor. He has been able to motivate and make thousands of New Yorkers have come out to his rallies. He's been from Buffalo to Rochester to Brooklyn to the Bronx. I mean yesterday in Washington Square Park, 30,000 people came out for Bernie Sanders. It was amazing.

LEMON: So it's gone from 20,000 to 27,000 to 30,000. We don't have an official count.

SARSOUR: Hey, I don't know --

LEMON: But there were lots of people.

SARSOUR: There was lots of people.

LEMON: There was a huge crowd out there.

SARSOUR: We have pictures of people outside, on side streets. I mean it was -- I was there.

LEMON: Yes.

SARSOUR: I mean it was huge.

LEMON: Yes. Do you know Chirlane McClane -- or Chirlane McCray, excuse me --

SARSOUR: Yes, our first lady.

LEMON: The first lady of New York City. She is a Hillary Clinton supporter. I want you to listen to what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIRLANE MCCRAY, WIFE OF NYC MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO: I think the tone will be respectful. But I think that Bernie's getting a little desperate. So I expect that we'll hear the volume be pumped up a little bit. Now, Hillary's a great candidate. She's battle-tested and I expect that they're really going to be addressing some serious issues tonight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: She said Bernie Sanders is desperate.

SARSOUR: I absolutely don't think that Bernie Sanders is desperate. We've seen him win seven of the last eight states. This is where he was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, just like me. He's creating a new voter community. Young people all over the state are so excited and we can't wait until they go to the polls on April 19th.

LEMON: Last night a supporter -- I want to talk about this -- a supporter of Sanders made this remark, OK? Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I agree with Secretary Clinton that Medicare for all will never happen if we have a president who never aspires for something greater than the status quo. Medicare for all will never happen if we continue to elect corporate democratic whores who are beholden to big pharma.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: All right, so Sanders did condemn the comment in a tweet, saying that "Dr. Song's comment was inappropriate and insensitive. There is no room for language like that in our political discourse." Do you think that Bernie Sanders went far enough with that and why didn't -- why wouldn't he say something last night instead of just tweeting?

[13:20:01] SARSOUR: I think he definitely has distanced himself from those types of comments not welcomed in our campaign. But I also want to look at his record. He's always been an ally of women and supported women's reproductive rights. So let's look at the record. And he -- this is absolutely unacceptable and Bernie Sanders immediately distanced himself from this type of rhetoric.

LEMON: You -- you think that's enough? Do you think just a tweet is enough? Because people are saying, why didn't you say something last night? And instead of just tweeting about it today. You had every opportunity.

SARSOUR: Well, if people understand how rallies work, I mean, Senator Sanders shows up. I mean he wasn't there physically while Dr. Song was speaking.

LEMON: Yes.

SARSOUR: But absolutely looking at his record, he's always been a fighter for women's rights in this country.

LEMON: I have to go, but are you OK with him leaving the campaign trail to go to the Vatican?

SARSOUR: I think that is going to be a spiritual revival for him and the campaign.

LEMON: Thank you, Linda Sarsour.

SARSOUR: Thank you, Don. Thank you so much.

LEMON: I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

We're just days -- just days to go until this critical New York primary and Trump's tirades against the RNC only getting hotter. The Republican frontrunner now telling his supporters not to head to the polls but instead to the streets to protest. This as Indiana sends its delegates into hiding over reports of threats.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:25:38] LEMON: Ah, look at that, from the air, New York City is beautiful today. We are back now live. But look inside of the hall, live pictures inside of the hall. That debate takes place less than eight hours right now. Live from Brooklyn for tonight's Democratic debate.

But the Republican race is also heating up before New York's primary and not so much where they focus on voters, but delegates. Let me explain. This morning, the Trump campaign met with lawmakers on Capitol Hill in a bid to try to win over support and avoid a brokered convention. But at last night's CNN town hall, Ted Cruz slammed the campaign's tactics saying it's not wooing delegates, it's intimidating them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald and his team, it's almost like they are subjects in a clinical course on psychology. In the last few weeks, Donald's team, Roger Stone, his chief political adviser, was threatening to out the hotel rooms of delegates who dared to cross Trump so they could be intimidated. They're acting like union boss thugs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: With me to discuss just about every CNN commentator and panelist we have, including Bakari Sellers, who supports Secretary Clinton, Bill Press, who supports Bernie Sanders, Charles Blow, "New York Times" op-ed columnist, Amanda Carpenter, former communications for Senator Ted Cruz, Jeffrey Lord, a Donald Trump supporter, and, finally, Margaret Hoover, (INAUDIBLE) of two GOP presidential campaigns. Goodness, gracious. All right, and we're done.

Now the debate starts. All right, Jeffrey, I want to start with you about this intimidating factor.

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

LEMON: This intimidation factor. Colorado's GOP chairman, and delegates in Indiana, say that they are receiving threats for not supporting Donald Trump. Indiana has even decided to keep its delegates secret now. It's not clear if the threats are coming from the Trump supporters, but Ted Cruz certainly thinks they are. How do you respond to that?

LORD: Yes. Well, first of all, the Indiana -- or the Indiana Trump chairman has rejected this flat out, as do I, as any sane person. There's no place for violence in American political life, period. That's it. One thing -- and I'm saying this for my friend Charles over here. In 1976 --

LEMON: When he says my friend, here it comes.

LORD: In 1976 --

CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: When Reagan --

LORD: When Reagan -- exactly. Exactly.

BLOW: There we go.

LORD: That's exactly right. I was waiting for him to get this.

BLOW: It all comes back.

LORD: In the Reagan-Ford battle, they did exactly that. They sent people to delegates' doors, to knock on their doors and converse with them about the --

LEMON: But this is --

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Converse? (INAUDIBLE), right?

LORD: And Roger Stone -- Roger Stone himself --

LEMON: Yes.

LORD: Has told me that what he's talking about is that. He's talking about --

LEMON: All right, but this isn't 1976, all right, and this is what Donald Trump's tweet (ph) --

LEMON: Wait, it's not.

LEMON: No -- no, it's not. Some people may think it is, all right, because I hear his name invoked so much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).

LEMON: Here's what Donald Trump tweeted last night. "A big protest march in Colorado on Friday afternoon. Don't let the bosses take your vote." He's encouraging his supporters to protest. He's calling on his own -- he's calling his own party corrupt. Is this not intimidation here? Is this not intimidating people?

LORD: No. No. Before I came out, I was reading about the 1912 Republican convention. Theodore Roosevelt was doing this.

LEMON: Now we go back to 1912.

LORD: Theodore -- well, I wasn't there. I wasn't there. But I'm told by Ohio State University Department of History that that's exactly what they did in 1912. I mean there's nothing new here, Don.

LEMON: OK, it's not --

LORD: When you want delegates, you go after the delegates.

LEMON: (INAUDIBLE).

LORD: What?

LEMON: It's not -- see -- 1912.

CARPENTER: There is a new interesting dynamic that's going to happen in the event of an open convention in the modern era in 2016 is that everyone's going to know in real-time what's going on.

LEMON: Right. Exactly.

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

CARPENTER: If they're going to try to strike deals, if there's bribes, if there any shenanigans, people knocking on hotel room doors.

LEMON: These -- these will be everywhere.

CARPENTER: You can bet someone will be tweeting about it.

HOOVER: Yes.

CARPENTER: And this convention is going to move so fast, lightning speed, votes could be switched and bound -- you know, onto someone else in a heartbeat. And so I think anyone that thinks they're going to get away with any kind of intimidation with this bright light shining on everyone, is deadly mistaken.

LORD: Agreed.

LEMON: Yes.

BLOW: But the idea --

LEMON: Mark.

BLOW: But the idea of shenanigans, you know, is debatable, right?

CARPENTER: Sure.

BLOW: The entire -- what this -- this campaign is doing is shining a very bright light on the way that people are actually nominated when people do not get the absolute number of delegates that they need. And this is the way it has been done. And in --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. Yes, I -- BLOW: If you look all of the contested kind of brokered conventions, this is the -- they incentivize, they, you know, you know, they're -- they, you know, give --

[13:30:00] LEMON: Incentivize.

BLOW: Incentivize.

LEMON: That's an interesting way of putting it, yes.

BLOW: (INAUDIBLE). You know, invite people to the White House if you have a sitting president. Do all sorts of things.

LORD: Dinner with the queen of England.

BLOW: And this is, because, you know, we -- we -- think of, you know, the nominating process as a completely