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Continuation of Confirmation Hearing of FBI Director. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired July 12, 2017 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


SEN. MAZIE HIRONO, D-HAWAII: So, clearly there's been a lot of

[13:30:00]

emphasis and concern on the part of this committee in light of why this vacancy for the FBI director occurred, on the independence of the FBI, and you should you be confirmed, of any political influences.

So I do want to return to some questions about Russia's interference with our elections, and the continuing position of the president to take seriously the damage to our country or even accept the conclusions of our intel communities.

And you have testified that you accept the conclusions of our intel community that Russia did attempt to interfere with our elections.

WRAY: As I said, Senator, I have -- I've only been able to review the public summary, but I have no reason to doubt the conclusions of the intelligence community.

HIRONO: Probably the non-public portions would be even more confirming of the public information as to Russia's attempts to interfere with our elections. So there's also been testimony not only by former Director Comey, but others in the intel community, that we can expect Russia to continue to interfere with our elections.

So should you be confirmed, what would you do to prevent this kind of interference?

WRAY: Well, I would want to get briefed by the appropriate professionals both at the FBI and in other parts of the intelligence community on what we know about how any nation-state, whether it's Russia or any other nation-state is attempting to or has attempted to interfere. What are we doing to detect it? How can we be confident that we're taking all the right steps? Are there sources of information that we're not getting that we need to get access to?

So I would need to get briefed up on all those efforts.

HIRONO: In my meeting with you, you made it very clear that any foreign country's attempts to interfere, particularly one that is an adversary to us -- a foreign country's attempts to interfere with our election is an attack on some very basic premises of our country, our democracy. So you would take this kind of -- of conclusion that Russia will continue to interfere as very serious? And that it would be a priority for the FBI?

WRAY: Very seriously indeed, Senator.

HIRONO: OK.

There were a number of one-on-one conversations that I will characterize as improper or questionable; one-on-one meetings that FBI Director Comey had with President Trump. And you've testified to the concerns that you would have. And you said a number of times that should that kind of circumstance occur between you and President Trump, that you would go to Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein, not to the Attorney General Sessions.

You've said that a number of times during your testimony today. Why would you not go to Senator -- I mean to A.G. Sessions?

WRAY: Well, I wouldn't -- unless there was something that the attorney general was recused from, I wouldn't rule out talking to the attorney general as well. But the department's organizational chart, the FBI reports to the deputy attorney general, number one.

And number two, contacts -- the policy that the department has that governs contacts between the White House and the Justice Department is -- directs that those kinds of contacts should occur through the Office of the Deputy Attorney General.

So that strikes me as the appropriate place to start in those conversations.

HIRONO: And of course, in this instance, Attorney General Sessions has recused himself from pretty much anything relating to the Russia investigations. Correct?

WRAY: That's my understanding, but I'm not familiar with the full scope of the recusal.

HIRONO: And yet on the other hand, when Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein sent his memo regarding Director Comey, there was a letter attached from Jeff Sessions that recommended to the president that -- that Comey be fired.

Would you consider that appropriate for someone who recused himself from these matters?

WRAY: Well, Senator, I don't know all the circumstances surrounding Director Comey's firing. And I know that Special Counsel Mueller is I believe investigating that. So it's probably not responsible for me to speculate. I will say that the attorney general of the United States has authority over the Justice Department, which covers much more than any single investigation. And clearly, the attorney general needs to be able to make decisions that affect the whole institution.

Obviously, if he's recused, he can't participate in a particular investigation.

HIRONO: Well, I would say that the firing of Director Comey was part and parcel as it turns out of the elections. And that was -- and a circumstance that Attorney General Sessions was supposed to recuse himself from.

Now, the attorney general does get briefings on FBI investigations, ongoing FBI investigations. Is that correct?

WRAY: That's historically been the case.

HIRONO: So, in a case where the attorney general has recused himself, should he be getting briefings on Mr. Mueller's investigations?

WRAY: If I understand your question correctly, senator, anyone who has recused himself from an investigation, whether it's attorney general or anyone else, shouldn't be getting briefed on that investigation...

HIRONO: Yes.

WRAY: ... that specific investigation, no.

HIRONO: So, the answer would be no, that he should not be getting briefings on the Mueller investigations.

WRAY: And I have no reason to believe that he is.

HIRONO: I think when you were first asked whether you had met with President Trump regarding your nomination and you said no. But then later you said that you were first contacted about this nomination from -- with Deputy Director Rosenstein.

And then you had a subsequent meeting with Jeff Sessions and Rosenstein. And then you had another meeting at the White House where the president attended.

So, when you had your initial meeting with Deputy AG Rosenstein, does the subject of the -- of Comey's firing, does the subject of the Mueller investigation come up? Or did you go in with any kind of a seeking of reassurances that should you take this position you would be free to do your job free from political pressure?

WRAY: I did go into my meeting with Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein and Attorney General Sessions. I met with them together. With a number of questions, and in my mind, about wanting to be sure that I knew what I was getting myself into. And was very comfortable with what I heard.

There was not a...

HIRONO: What was it that you heard?

WRAY: Sorry. There was not a discussion of Comey's firing or of the Russia investigation other than, other than, Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein making a comment to the effect that now that Special Counsel Mueller has been appointed, that situation is more straightforward because there's an investigation going and Special Counsel Mueller has that.

So that the -- so, from my perspective, the landscape that I was coming into at that point was different than it would have been without Special Counsel Mueller having been appointed.

HIRONO: So, did you come to a conclusion that you would not probably be having one-on-one discussions about the Russian interference with the president, as had occurred with Director Comey? Because you had Mueller there conducting an investigation?

WRAY: Yes.

HIRONO: So that you were assured or reassured that you would be able to do your job.

WRAY: I was very comfortable I would be able to do my job after that meeting, yes.

HIRONO: At the time that you had a meeting with Jeff Sessions and Deputy Director Rosenstein, did you indicate to them that should you get the job that you would very much support the Mueller investigation?

WRAY: I did not discuss the Russia investigation with them. As I said, other than Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein making the comment that that was now in place, which would make it easier for me to do my job, that was the sum total of that.

What I did say to them is I would approach -- much as I've said to this committee, the way I would approach this job is with independence, straight and by the book. HIRONO: So, considering that the president is -- was very focused on the Russia investigation, and basically, I think his position is that he hoped that it would go away, when you met with the people at the White House, and I'm not sure who exactly it was there, but the president was there.

Did the question of the Mueller investigation come up? Or the Russia investigation come up at all?

WRAY: No, not at all, senator.

HIRONO: Did you think that was odd? Was it just a hello, good to see you kind of a meeting that you had at the White House? WRAY: I mean, it was -- I would describe it as a pleasant conversation. I did not think it was odd that the president nor anybody else didn't raise with me the conduct of a specific investigation because I would not have expected them to do that.

HIRONO: I know that I'm running out of time so I would want to get into a second round. So, thank you very much.

GRASSLEY: (OFF-MIKE) people do want a second round.

HIRONO: Yes. GRASSLEY: And in fact, I'm going to start the second round right now.

I think we have at least one Republican that hasn't had the first round. But...

HIRONO: Oh. So, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll wait...

(CROSSTALK)

GRASSLEY: ... you will have another opportunity.

HIRONO: Thank you.

GRASSLEY: I want to ask you about Section 702 provides government the authority to collect the electronic communications of foreigners located outside of the United States with the assistance of the American electronic communication service providers. It's an authority used only for counterterrorism, but counterintelligence purposes as well. This is an authority that the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board.

And I won't finish this paragraph, but a lot of people say it's very essential. So, I go to you as FBI director to be. One of your key responsibilities will be overseeing investigations of threats to national security.

Your predecessor repeatedly affirmed his support for the value of 702 as a national security tool. So, just in a very general way, could you tell us whether reauthorization of Section 702 will remain important to the FBI under your leadership?

And also whether the FBI, under your leadership, will make sure that it uses this national security authority with proper training execution oversight to comply with the law and protect the Fourth Amendment rights?

WRAY: It's been a number of years since I had anything to do with FISA, although I did deal with it a certain amount when I was in the government before. And of course, Section 702, which passed after I had left government.

But from everything I understand from the public comments and the people in the intelligence community, 702 is a vital tool and one that we need to put a high priority, and that I would expect to place a high priority on seeking reauthorization on. My understanding as to the second part of your question, is that there are a number of oversight mechanisms built into the statutory framework, both in the executive branch, multiple levels of oversight in the legislative branch, and the court, the FISA Court itself. And I think that's appropriate. And I would look for ways to ensure that the tool was used appropriately.

GRASSLEY: OK.

I want to talk about leaks. The FBI has often failed to answer this committee's questions, but then the same information gets leaked to the media or produced in the Freedom of Information Act litigation. Is it appropriate for the FBI to ignore a request from this committee

and provide the same information to the media in a third- party litigation? If not, what will you do to ensure that this committee's requests will receive?

And I asked the same question of Comey in an oversight hearings -- his last oversight here a couple weeks before he left the directorship. And I said, "how do you justify citizen Grassley using FOIA information getting more information than Senator Grassley can get?" And he says, "I can't tell you why." And I said, "egads" (ph).

A senator can't get as much information as a private citizen can get. And often the letters that we send for information, we read about FOIA getting it, and we read about it in the newspaper before we get an answer to our letters.

WRAY: Well, senator, as we discussed in our meeting in your office, I think it's obviously important for the FBI, working with the department's help and approval, to be as responsive as possible to this committee and especially of course to its chairman.

I'm not familiar with the particular circumstances surrounding FOIA productions of any of these materials. I agree with you that that strikes me, just listening to you describe it, as an odd situation, to put it mildly.

GRASSLEY: Yes.

I want -- I don't expect you to respond to this next question with anything about Mr. McCabe, but I use Mr. McCabe as an example.

As I noted in my opening statement, the department refused to provide an unredacted copy of Mr. McCabe's recusal manual. And the deputy attorney general has failed to explain to this committee what he's doing to deal with the conflict of interest.

In a general matter, do you think it is appropriate for any FBI official to participate in a criminal investigation of someone who is an adverse witness in a pending EEO proceeding? And if not, what would you do, if confirmed, to assure that that does not happen on your watch?

WRAY: Well, senator -- Mr. Chairman, I -- obviously I want to make sure that I understand the facts appropriately. I think that one of the first things I would do upon being confirmed is to try to take stock of the situation with the senior leadership and try to understand better the circumstances.

There is, of course, an inspector general investigation into acting Director McCabe's conduct. And I know, Mr. Chairman, your own strong support for the inspector general function is well known, and I'd obviously want to respect that and not comment here out of school.

GRASSLEY: OK. I'm going to put some letters in the record again in support for you from various law enforcement organizations, and they support your appointment. And it's a law enforcement community at large and support it strongly.

FBI Agents Association Atlantic division, Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI, National Fraternal Order of Police, the National Association of Police Organization, International Association of Chiefs of Police, Major County Sheriffs of America, the Association of State Criminal Investigative Agencies, and the National Narcotic Officers Association Coalition, and the Nation Fusion Center Association all be entered into the record. Without objection, they will be.

Senator Klobuchar?

KLOBUCHAR: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Looks like we're nearing an end here.

But I did want to mention that not just the letter of support that Senator Grassley just mentioned, but also the earlier one had former U.S. attorneys and from all over the country supporting you. I thought that was very impressive.

And I included former Republican-appointed U.S. attorney in Minnesota, as well as our recent Democratic-appointed attorney in Minnesota. So, I want to commend you for that.

Just a few follow-up questions. The first is opioids. I don't know that that is come up, and it's -- an epidemic would be a mild way of phrasing what's going on.

In my state, we've lost everyone from super star like Prince to swimming star from our high school swimming team. We've actually had more people die from opioid overdoses in Minnesota than we had from homicide, or than we have from car crashes.

And you and I talked earlier about the bills that I have to make it easier to go after some of the synthetic drugs from a law enforcement standpoint, and then, also of course, the work that we have done, Senator Whitehouse, Portman, and others, and myself have done in leading the bill to set a national framework. But now, it's times to implement it.

And it's everything from treatment to better sharing the data across state lines so that we can monitor prescriptions and share that data. And I just wondered, from an FBI perspective, if you could give any views you have on this epidemic.

WRAY: Well, Senator, I -- I strongly agree that it's a -- a major, major problem that's not only sweeping this country, but it seems to be getting worse all the time in a lot of states, and it sounds like including in Minnesota. I think that an awful lot of the effort in this area from a federal law enforcement perspective would probably come from the Drug Enforcement Administration. But I do think the FBI should look for ways to partner with other federal agencies, and state and local law enforcement to figure out how it can contribute what it can uniquely contribute to a multidisciplinary assault on the problem.

KLOBUCHAR: As you know, sex trafficking and human trafficking, and as a whole has been very important to me. Senator Cornyn and I passed the bill that sets out a federal effort. And both the former attorney generals as well as deputy attorney general Yates, who has actually worked on these cases I know in Atlanta. I have been involved in this.

And the FBI has been an important part of the efforts to end trafficking with the Innocence Lost National Initiative that began in '03. One part of this program, Operation Cross Country, which focuses on underage victims was successful in rescuing 82 children and arresting 239 traffickers during its last cycle ending last October.

I understand this has been an important issue for you. And you've done some pro bono work to help trafficking victims. Can you tell us more about your work and how you intend to carry this out if you are -- come into the directorship?

WRAY: Thank you, Senator. As we discussed, this is an issue that you and I both feel very passionately about. When I was in the criminal division, one of the things that we did towards the end of my tenure was recognizing the increase in human trafficking and the -- the multidisciplinary -- again, I use that word -- nature of the problem.

We're bringing together both sort of the child exploitation side of it, there's a -- an immigration side of it, an alien-smuggling side of it, there's an organized gang activity side of it, there is -- in response to questions that you asked earlier in a different context, there's a -- a -- a financial side of it. And so, I think it needs to sort of a coordinated effort.

It's an incredibly vulnerable population that has -- is subject to enormous leverage by the bad guys. And one of the -- as you mentioned, one of the pro bono things that I'm most pleased of, and I'm looking forward to hearing my firm take to the next level after I've left, is an effort focused on helping human trafficking victims who don't get really any serious help in our system. And I was really excited to see the young lawyers on our firm kind of get fired up to go see how they can be helpful.

It's a different kind of pro bono work that I think a lot of firms do. And I think it's a great thing.

KLOBUCHAR: Thank you.

GRASSLEY: Senator Klobuchar's going to shut down this meeting after her -- Senator Hirono's done, unless somebody on my side comes. So, I'm going to go do a -- a news conference, not about you, but just a general one, and that I do every day at -- or every Wednesday at 2 o'clock.

So, I want to congratulate you. And as I said, originally -- I think I said we expect to move this along and get this position filled very quickly. And I think your testimony today helps us do that.

And I want to compliment your family and your friends for being here with you. And thanks, Senator Klobuchar.

Senator Hirono?

WRAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

HIRONO: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Getting back to the meeting that you had at the White House regarding your nomination, President Trump was there. Can you tell us who else was there from the administration?

WRAY: I had two meetings. The -- the first was the president, the vice president, the White House counsel, and then a couple people from the Justice Department. The second meeting was the president, the president's chief of staff, the White House counsel, and again, some people from the department, including Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein.

HIRONO: When was the first meeting? Do you recall?

WRAY: The first meeting was the day after Memorial Day. It was publicly reported as I understand.

HIRONO: And I -- at -- at neither one of these meetings did the issue of the Russia investigation, Mueller, or the Comey firing came up.

WRAY: Correct.

HIRONO: So, what did the president say to you in the first meeting? And what did he say to you in the second meeting?

WRAY: Both -- both meetings, Senator, were very conversational about my bio, my background. I talked about my commitment in the war on terror, my experiences from having been in the department before. It was more of a -- I would describe it as more of a kind of get-to- know-you kind of conversation in both instances.

HIRONO: And knowing how strongly you -- you believe that the FBI should be free to investigate to -- free from a political influence, et cetera. At that time, did you express any of the -- that kind of a strong commitment to the independence of the FBI at either one of these two meetings to anybody at the -- at these meetings?

WRAY: At the -- in the White House, you mean?

HIRONO: Yes.

WRAY: I may have, at some point, repeated the line that I -- I told you a few minutes ago about my commitment to playing it straight. You know, that's my approach or (ph) works (ph) to that effect. But it -- it -- it wasn't really in context called for.

I would say, Senator, that I went into both meetings listening very carefully to make sure that I didn't hear something that would make me uncomfortable. Having gotten a -- a high level of confidence in both Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein, who I've known since 2001, and Attorney General Sessions in -- in that meeting that (ph) I had. I was then focused more in the White House meetings on making sure that I didn't hear something that wouldn't -- that I would consider problematic.

And I can assure you that if anything had been said that made me remotely comfortable, I would not be sitting here today providing testimony in support of my nomination.

HIRONO: So, definitely things like an expectation of loyalty to the president, that would've been a red flag for you.

WRAY: I was not asked to take any kind of loyalty oath.

HIRONO: No (ph), but -- but that would have been the kind of thing that you would have been highly sensitive to listen for. And that didn't...

(CROSSTALK)

WRAY: Correct, that did not happen.

HIRONO: Let me turn to -- we have an administration that has talked about a Muslim registry, a -- a -- various -- well, Muslim registry for example. Would you go along with something like that? Talked about, you know, surveilling mosques, creating a Muslim registry.

As FBI director, would you go along with such a scheme?

WRAY: Well, Senator, I don't know enough about the specific proposals or plans that anybody is talking about. I would say that my commitment on these issues would be the same as it would be on anything else, which is faithful to the law, faithful to the Constitution, and faithful to the best practices of the FBI and the department.

And as I said I think in response to Senator Durbin, my experience with terrorism matters is that we need the cooperation of the Muslim- American community, and that a lot of the leads in some of the most important investigations that law enforcement has obtained have been from those people.

And so I think the FBI director needs to be an FBI director for all Americans.

HIRONO: So, any kind of a program that would single out individuals based on their religion would raise some concerns for you? That you would ask some quite specific questions, I would say, right? Because this is the foundational -- you know, religious freedom, and not racial profiling. Are those -- are those areas that as FBI director you would be particularly sensitive about moving forward on any kind of programs that would treat different groups, particularly minority groups, in any kind of a discriminatory way?

WRAY: Well, Senator, needless to say, discrimination is abhorrent and not something that I would condone. I would want to pay particularly close attention to any program that seemed to raise those kinds of concerns. And as I mentioned on the issue of religious freedom, which is something that's always been very important to me. And as I said, one of the cases that was one of the more meaningful cases I ever did as a line prosecutor was a case where churches all around the country were being burned down precisely because of hostility to a particular religion, which is obviously unacceptable.

HIRONO: So, I hate to interrupt, but I'm -- oh, I seem to be over my time.

I know that, if you don't mind, Madam Chair, your firm has represented various individuals who have interests to the Russian energy interests, et cetera. And so I'll probably submit -- I will submit a question as to whether any investigations that would involve clients of what would probably be a former law firm, should you take this position, how you would handle any conflict issues regarding those kinds of circumstances.

And then I'll also submit some questions relating to hate crimes, because as we mentioned in my meeting with you, that there is a rise in hate crimes and what the FBI can do and should do to counter and prevent hate crimes.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

WRAY: Thank you, Senator.

KLOBUCHAR: Thank you very much.

Mr. Wray, Senator Durbin is going to join us, so now you and I are going to be engaged in a little filibuster.

Oh, and he's here. I have some follow-up questions. But while he's sitting down, I did want to -- this question I asked you really quickly about the shell companies and the use of shell companies. I just want to explain it, and you answered it fine.

But it's a very big deal to me because the Treasury Department has noted a significant rise in the use of shell companies in real estate transactions because foreign buyers use them as a way to hide their identity and safely conceal money in the U.S. It could be from any country. I used it in the context of Russia.

And I raised this with Director Comey when he testified last time, and just about -- and your experience with white collar cases. Does the anonymity associated with the use of shell companies to buy real estate hurt the FBI's ability to trace the flow of illicit money and fight organized crime?

WRAY: Certainly, Senator. Those kinds of maneuvers -- the creation of shell companies and things like that are unfortunately an all-too- common way that criminals and others try to circumvent detection. And so certainly I would think that the FBI needs to work with its partners in law enforcement, especially the Treasury Department, to as I said follow the money.

And sometimes that's easier said than done, but I think that's a critical step to trying to prevent and disrupt and not just detect after the fact criminal conduct.

KLOBUCHAR: Thank you very much.

Senator Durbin?

DURBIN: Thank you.

I know this has been a long ordeal for you, but I think it's coming to an end.

Let me just try to ask two or three questions, and to nail down this torture memo issue. I want to follow up on what you said earlier about your role in approval of interrogation techniques, which we also discussed in my office.

You said that during your time

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in the deputy attorney general's office --